Something Rotten in the Boy Scouts

There’s deception going on in the front office of the Boy Scouts. It includes deliberate misrepresentation of polling data, and threats to pack an upcoming meeting with anonymous and unqualified voters so that the Boy Scout policy on homosexuality gets forced on the majority of Scouts and parents who don’t want it.

The Boy Scouts are considering changing their policy of not allowing open homosexuality in either their Scout or leadership ranks. The policy has placed the Boy Scouts in the buzz saw of the zeitgeist and up until recently they have resisted. There are some weak-kneed leaders who want to throw over the policy and appear willing to violate the Scout Law to do it.

The Scout front office released the result of a national survey and “listening” process that purported to show that the Scouts—boys, parents, leaders and donors—favor a change in the policy. The Boy Scouts say the process reveals great changes in attitudes and that a majority of those at all levels of Scouting “tend to agree that youth should not be denied the benefits of Scouting.”

This was dutifully and even triumphantly reported in the mainstream press.  The only problem is the news reports were wrong. And the news reports were wrong because the Boy Scouts misrepresented the results. One close observer of the Boy Scouts calls the poll “a pack of lies.”

Do Scouting parents want to overhaul the policy and allow open homosexuality in the Scouts? The Executive Summary of the Poll says, “yes”, but the numbers say “no.” Fifty percent of Cub Scout parents support the current restrictive policy while 45% oppose it. A whopping 61% of Boy Scout parents support the current policy.

How did Boy Scout leadership get anywhere near the assertion that a majority of those in Scouting support homosexuality in Scouting? Part of what they did was what is known as a push-poll, a questionnaire designed not to elicit an accurate opinion but one designed to change opinions.

Here’s the most sympathetic scenario presented to the respondents: “Tom started in the program as a Tiger Cub and finished every requirement for the Eagle Scout award at 16 years of age. At his board of review Tom reveals he is gay. Is it acceptable or unacceptable for the review board to deny his Eagle Scout award based on that admission?”

Read this way, you may conclude that it is not right or just to deny Tom his award. Even so, the numbers show that a majority of parents still continue to support the current policy.

What is going on here? Deception, that’s what. There is a small group on the Executive Committee of the Boy Scouts who want this policy to change. What they face is a membership that largely opposes the measure. So, they try to get their way by lying about a poll. But there is more deception than that.

The Executive Board took up the issue a few months ago and after a tsunami of protest punted the issue to a vote of their National Council set to take place on May 20th. There are usually 1400 voting members of this body who qualify through strict criteria. Insiders have been told there may be an additional 2,000 voting members at the upcoming meeting. Who are they? The Boy Scouts leaders aren’t telling. Are they trying to pack the meeting? It sure looks that way.

A group of Scouting parents have grown alarmed over these deceptive practices and have hired not one but two lawyers to represent their interests and not just their interests but the interest of fairness and making sure the Boy Scout Executive Committee sticks to their own by-laws that are very clear about who can vote. There are legal issues here and this whole process could end up on court.

On the eve of the vote the Executive Committee will make a presentation on this issue to the National Council. The Executive Committee is the group driving this change and is the group presenting these deceptive numbers. You can be sure in that meeting there will be no presentation from supporters of the current policy, and you can be sure the Executive committee will continue to spin their deceptive tale about how most of Scouting is fine with open homosexuality in the program.

All this goes to show once more the lengths of deception that some will go to advance an agenda that is offensive to most Americans. They cannot win an up or down vote so they lie about a poll. They cannot convince regular people so they have to pack the meeting.

The number one item in the Boy Scout law is to be trustworthy. The process ought to be stopped and there ought to be a housecleaning and all these untrustworthy guys should get the boot.

Austin Ruse


Austin Ruse is president of C-FAM (Center for Family & Human Rights), a New York and Washington DC-based research institute. He is the author of Fake Science: Exposing the Left’s Skewed Statistics, Fuzzy Facts, and Dodgy Data published by Regnery. He is also the author of the new book Little Suffering Souls: Children Whose Short Lives Point Us to Christ published by Tan Books. The views expressed here are solely his own.

  • Kathy

    This reminds me of when the APA “voted” to end the defining of homosexuality as a mental illness. The group in favor of the change waited until most of the qualified voters had left the meeting to hold their vote. Surprise, surprise! Homosexuality was now classified as “normal.”

    • Paul Rimmer

      Did Wilberforce use tricks like this in order to fight slavery?

  • tedseeber

    and people wonder why I say deception, dishonesty, and homosexuality are causally linked.

    I remember being 15. I remember my heterosexual attitude towards girls at that time. Anybody who thinks this will not lead to rape on campouts is an idiot.

    • Wow, My friends and I was as hormone driven as any other teenage boys. But I don’t recall any conversations or thoughts that involved raping girls. If you did, then your the problem so don’t project your perversions onto every other 15 year old – gay or straight.

  • David

    I like what a lot of protestants have. They have developed there own similiar program called something like Awana.

    • tom

      I can see Catholic groups sharing camp facilities, jamborees etc. with other Faith communities. Each geographic area will have more troops with a common morality working together than they’ve ever had. We can plan on the Catholic bishops opposing an effort towards a Catholic version of Boy Scouts, though. Makes ya wonder about them, doesn’t it? Maybe the Catholics will have to join Awana?

      • Awanas is great (I am a leader/records keeper in 3 different clubs at my church) but it does lack the camping element and badges are based on scripture memory, rather than skills. I would love to see a club that incorporates both! And by the way – Catholics and ALL DENOMINATIOS are WELCOME in our club!

        • And I attended 12 years of Catholic schools, so what I really wanted to do with my evenings and weekends is memorize scripture. Was anyone posting here ever a Scout? It is NOT essentially a religious organization, it was and is a camping/outdoor organization that also teaches leadership skills, service to others and citizenship (with a touch of morals thrown in).

      • tedseeber

        Knights of Columbus Squires Program, anybody?

      • rand2410

        I am a Roman Catholic and a former Scout. I never heard of any Priest opposing Scouting in any way.

  • Coffie

    Underlying the whole “gay” agenda is a pernicious will to corrupt and pervert manhood, friendship, marriage, family … the whole moral system is being radically altered.

    • tom

      it’s only been in full swing since LBJ.

  • Cheryl

    Reminds me of what happened in the Girl Scouts. No wonder these organizations are struggling to keep members. They no longer represent the values of their founders.

    • Richard

      Bear in mind that the founder of the Boy Scouts, Robert Baden-Powell, was very likely a repressed homosexual and pedophile. He enjoyed being around naked boys and looking at pictures of them. In fact, the necessity for an ueber-masculine, “no gurlz allowed” organization is rather suggestive in and of itself.

      • Jacob Suggs

        Yeah, no. This is you projecting your values onto others because you can’t imagine that you’re wrong.

        It’s similar to the line of thinking “no one could possibly be willing to sacrifice sex, so all Catholic priests must secretly be gay men leading undercover gay lives.”

        It’s stupid, has no foundation in fact, and is made up by people for the sole purpose of making them feel more comfortable with their own failings on moral issues by assuming that everyone else has them too.

        Your comment gets a Bah. And also a Humbug. And for good measure, you can also have a pshaw. And Phooey. It’s all a bunch of balderdash.

        • tom

          Richard the Lyin’-hearted pontificates to do his part to destroy Western Civilization. Richard, you’ve earned a demerit badge, again. Take a hike.

          • Danielck

            Our son will NEVER be a “boy” scout. And he will not be a “girl”
            scout. As a parent, we will do everything we can to protect him and
            show him that God defines heterosexuality, and that sex defines
            homosexuality. Because without perverted sex, one cannot be homo-sexual.

          • Bono95

            I like the title you gave him. 😀

        • Todd August

          Yeah, no. “Projecting your values” is when straight men portray gay men as pedophiles, because they know that they themselves find young girls sexually attractive.

          • I_M_Forman

            Todd, you think one wrong somehow makes another wrong right? Both are disgusting and unbecoming a real man. Don’t waste you time with the hypocrisy argument because that does not work.

            • Todd August

              Forman, *FAIL* try again.
              To put it in terms you can understand, “It takes one to know one”.

              • I_M_Forman

                Fail? LOL… Real men act like real men. Whatever your self-indulgent view of the world is keep it to yourself. To put it in terms you might understand – have a little dignity.

              • msmischief

                Yes, which means you are projecting your own habits of projection on people you hate.

          • Some of us actually know about the long history of male homosexuality, and know how to think about probabilities. If one third of children molested are male, and only 2 percent of men are homosexual, that means that 1 homosexual is responsible for 24.5 times as many victims as is 1 heterosexual. Math.

            • Me

              Some of you don’t know much about sociology. Pedophiles will often molest both boys and girls. They are often attracted to pre-pubescent children of both sexes, not boys or girls specifically, and very often do not have an adult sexual orientation. No connection between homosexual orientation and child molestation has been proven, in spite of the anti-gay stereotypes on this matter.

              • stump thumpr

                Uhhh what rock have you been living under… try “no connection your willing to take seriously”… why do you think this whole thread exists… cause there is tins of evidence… the rest of us are willing to consider… so some real homework have a deer and broaden your mind…

                • Me

                  Have a “deer” and go study the “tins” of evidence. The research is there for you to study.

            • Lars

              This conclusion is based on very ignorant assumptions. Pedophilia is a sexual orientation in itself. Many pedophiles are not attracted to adult partners of either sex and therefore cannot be considered either heterosexual or homosexual in the normal sense. However, the vast majority of child molesters that do have an adult sexual orientation are heterosexual. Many of them are married, and most are interested in activities such as scouting, arcades, ballparks, etc., that will bring them into contact with children. Whether the victim is a boy or a girl will often depend on opportunity. Hence a scoutmaster may be married, heterosexual in his adult relationships, and molest boys because they are easily accessible to him. A good place to start with learning about this is

              • Michael Ryan

                nice try but scouts are post pubescent so we are dealing [as in the catholic scandal] with homosexuals, not pedophiles; who feel entitled and above the law., And throughout history they have sought to assert the right to destroy young men with their debauchery.This is why organization always wisely exclude them please spare me the exceptional citations.Gay scouts will be targeted by other boys and all will be traumatized this is tragic but unavoidable so its a bad idea to to mix them.

              • msmischief

                A vast majority of adults are heterosexual. It is the height of folly to give the absolute percentage rather than the relative one and think we will take it as meaningful.

      • cestusdei

        Richard, well never fear. Soon, if you get your way, the Scouts will be open to homosexuals and pedophiles.

      • Peregrinator

        Yes, he was so repressed that he married late in life and fathered three children. Please, the movement founded by Lord Baden-Powell has been approved by every Pope since Pius XI.

        • Todd August

          Jerry Sandusky – married with children.

          • Peregrinator

            Whatever Sandusky’s crimes are says not a thing about Baden-Powell.

            • scout mom

              One problem with that…… Sandusky was CAUGHT red-handed. Baden-Powell is suspected of being repressed according to one historian!

              • ahard

                Better repressed than an acting out homosexual.

              • Aldo Elmnight

                Does that “historian” work in the Queer Studies dept at a University?

          • I_M_Forman

            Jails have homosexuals in them that have sexually assaulted minors as well Todd.

            • Todd August

              Never said there wasn’t Forman.
              Pay attention please.

          • Me

            Pedophiles are usually adult males, often married, tend to be better educated and more religious than average, and tend to be well-liked. The married Sandusky must have seemed innocuous, even admirable, to many. When men start making up excuses to be naked or to shower around little boys, one needs to start monitoring them carefully.

          • Stump Thumpr

            uhhhhh … Jerry Sandusky screwed little boys in the shower and got caught… and that is where the correlation dies… Lets see what dead, un-defensible person can we start a rumor about to bolster an other wise perverted cause…. hmmmm he has to be important… and can’t pop us in the nose for saying it… ummmmmm….

      • Tomm

        Maybe Baden was gay. If true, irrelevant to the discussion. If false, irrelevant to the discussion.

        • tom

          Exactly. He was a respected British general and has been dead over 70 years. Let him RIP.

      • Sounds like you are describing yourself Richard…go somewhere else and troll

      • Aldo Elmnight

        1) Proof?
        2) Just because someone does something does not make it correct. There is an objective morality outside of your warped values.

      • musiccitydawg

        Nice straw man argument there. Make an unfounded accusation against someone unable to respond and overlay your own twisted view of reality.


      • Proteios

        ” was very likely”? Seriously. Forget evidence, i have my own fantwsy…
        Men can’t get together without being get and what, women can’t get together without being lesbians? I think you are projecting a bit too much. In fact, way too much.

      • Stump Thumpr

        Hey we can’t think of anything else to say worth while, so lets can everything that is obvious about a guy who is dead and come up with idiotic rants that if we say it long enough people will maybe believe… what part of private organization don’t people get… Richard just needs a group hug and a little pill and it will all be better…

      • Anonymous

        That’s the biggest load of BS I ever heard! The founders of the Boy Scouts were Christian men. They believed & followed by strong moral Christian values. Only a Godless depraved pervert such as yourself would want to a pedofreak to corrupt our kids. Your very existence makes me sick! Away with you!

      • RMSCOTT

        That is a lie that is being advanced by the foul gay activists. Powell was educated in Christian schools, and was married with children. He felt scouting was his calling from the Lord to prepare teens for manhood. There is absolutely no evidence of the pernicious accusations against him, and he would be appalled at the homosexual assault on his kids.

    • crakpot

      They are keeping the properties owned by the Scouts. This is just stealing by squatting and stinking up the place.

  • Interested persons might look into the Federation of North-American Explorers (FNE). They are affiliated with the Catholic FSE or UIGSE (Union of International Guides and Scouts of Europe). This is a Catholic youth movement. The main page for the movement in North
    America is; the page in NJ (first group in the USA) is at .

    They also have a facebook page at

    Any further questions can be directed to

    If the BSA does officially queer itself, the troop we sponsor at our monastery will probably seek affiliation with the FNE.

    • Howard Richards

      Thanks for the information. I had suspected there might be an existing alternative; now I know were to look.

    • I_M_Forman

      Bravo Brother Andre! Thank you for sharing. They need more publicity.

  • Richard

    Of homosexuality, the CCC says: “2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”
    How is banning and shunning homosexuals not a sign of “unjust discrimination”? How is it “respecting them with respect, compassion, and sensitivity”? Homosexuality is no better and no worse than other sexual practices deemed unhealthy by the Catholic Church — masturbation, fornication, pornographic fetishes — and so forth. I doubt there is a single Boy Scout leader or Boy Scout over the age of 12 that has not at least masturbated at some point. Should they be banned and shunned too? Why the particular animus against homosexual behavior? How is it any better than masturbating? And how can any of you who oppose homosexuality in the Boy Scouts claim you are NOT demonstrating “unjust discrimination” when you accept divorced, contracepting, and fornicating Boy Scout leaders while upholding rejection of homosexual Boy Scouts and Boy Scout leaders?

    • The Real Richard

      …and your point is??? who’s accepting what??? this looks to be too personal for you… and please stop using the CCC to justify your opinion!

      • Me

        But the CCC does justify his opinion! I suggest you address the expectation of the CCC, rather than launching a personal attack. You are making up your own rules and defying the true rules of the Church.

        • tom

          You give new meaning to the ME generation.

        • Jacob Suggs

          No it does not – the CCC does not say that you must pretend homosexual activity is in accordance with the scout law, nor that you must exempt people who struggle with that particular temptation from following it.

          A person who struggles with that temptation but does give into it, has no intention of giving in to it, and knows that giving in to it is wrong is not properly “gay” as the word is used and should not be and is not (as far as I am aware) excluded from the BSA. But that’s not what we’re talking about.

        • Howard Richards

          No, the CCC says “unjust discrimination”, not “all discrimination whatsoever”. It is also talking about, IF YOU BOTHER TO READ THE PASSAGE, those who have “inclinations” or “tendencies” of a homosexual nature. It is not discussing acting out on those tendencies, or identifying those tendencies as a core component of their very being, or trying to obtain acceptance of those acts as “normal”.

          • tom

            Why these men (and Caroline) NEED to destroy an wonderful organization for boys is beyond baffling to me. They should leave children alone.

          • It is unjust discrimination to deprive people of opportunities because they’re gay. That is a no-brainer.

        • Howard Richards

          Here’s an exercise: A number of people have conditions that bias them in the direction of physical violence. XYY syndrome is one; it is noticeably higher in the prison population than in the general public. Substitute “violent” for “homosexual” in the passage. IT REMAINS TRUE. “The number of men and women who have deep-seated violent tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.” Yet although we may have sympathy with someone who is tempted, due to an underlying medical condition, to react to situations with undue violence, we do not say that there is nothing wrong with them actually behaving violently. Also, we might justly exclude such a person from situations in which his temptation might be increased or where yielding to temptation would be especially harmful.

          You can do the same thing with ANY temptation. We all have temptations; we are all obliged to avoid the near occasion of sin; we should all be judged on the basis of what we actually do, not on the basis of how we are tempted. That isn’t any more true of homosexual temptations, but it isn’t any less true, either.

          • Me

            If you think you can equate violence with homosexuality, you are practicing discrimination.

            • I_M_Forman

              A Gay & Lesbian Times Article for you to read. This is a gay lobby website. What were you saying about violence again?
              “The California Coalition Against Sexual Assault’s (CALCASA) 2005 report acts as a compendium of diverse research about rape, sexual assault and violence, including that directed to and experienced within the GLBT community.

              Data collected by the CALCASA report and San Francisco Women Against Rape found that one in three lesbians have been sexually assaulted by a woman, and one in four have experienced violence within a lesbian relationship.
              CALCASA found that lesbian and bisexual women are particularly at risk because woman-to-woman sexual assault is often discounted due to the widely-believed definition of sexual assault as penile penetration, and because “homophobia and heterosexism set the stage for many forms of violence, including sexual violence” perpetrated by men.
              Lesbian and bisexual women also face a double-bind of fear in reporting same-sex rape, according to Tisha Martz, volunteer coordinator for the Rape Crisis Center at CCS.
              “There is the fear that if a lesbian reports [same-sex] rape, that betrays the LGBT community, that the community already has enough to deal with,” Martz said. “Then there’s a fear that if you say a woman assaults, it will undo some of the hard work we’ve put in to dispel the myth that women are responsible or to blame for rape.”
              Martz, whose organization collaborated with CALCASA on the report, added that in some cases, the use of butch and femme lesbian roles further antagonizes the process of reporting domestic sexual abuse because aggressor/recipient stereotypes may reinforce beliefs that butch women are never raped, and that femme women never rape.
              “This makes it more difficult for victims to come forward, and silences people who have been hurt and need help,” Martz said. “It seems the information from this community is getting better and that’s encouraging. We need to stimulate debate on a topic that many people find uncomfortable to talk about.”

              The GLBT statistics are derived from over 20 anti-violence organizations, although the report estimates that only 14 percent of anti-GLBT violence is reported to the police each year, as victims believe disclosure of their sexual orientation will lead to further persecution.
              Between 16 and 30 percent of the GLBT community reported being victimized by the police, and a 2002 study found that in almost 20 percent of cases, law enforcement decided not to continue the investigation and prosecute.
              Thirty-seven percent of gay men reported experiencing what is legally defined as sexual abuse or assault, usually before the age of 17 – a rate much higher than that among heterosexual men.”
              hurt them in a sexual way (i.e attempted rape or rape),” than heterosexual girls.

          • tedseeber

            I think the keywords here are “unjust discrimination”. Removing somebody with those tendencies from a situation where they might become an abuser, I’d call “just discrimination” (and wish somebody had done it with me when I was younger).

            • It is very ignorant to assume gays are abusers. They’re no more likely to abuse children than heterosexuals.

              • Austin Ruse

                actually, they are more likely, according to social science research. There are more heterosexuals in general who this but that is because the population is 98% heterosexual, but those 2% who are homosexual are more likely to abuse youngsters. And this makes a kind of sense since the having your first sexual experience as a boy with an older man is a major part of homosexual literature.

                • Lars

                  This is false. Pedophilia and homosexuality are two separate orientations. Read
                  for more information.

                  • Austin Ruse

                    Actually, an attraction to boys is central aspect to homosexual literature, leading one to believe that they are not separate. Many coming of age stories told by homosexuals include scenes of being seduced by an older man. Naturally, some want to avoid this problematic reality.

                  • msmischief

                    Most Boy Scouts, rather than Cub Scouts, are post-pubescence, and so the information is irrelevant.

              • tedseeber

                Heterosexuals of a certain age are extremely likely to abuse children of the opposite gender. That is why we keep them apart, and why we have single-gender dorm rooms in boarding schools.

    • Me

      Richard, I agree with you and with the teaching of the Catholic Church. Whatever one thinks about homosexuality, discrimination against homosexuals often occurs within a particularly ugly and pernicious context. We should not be trying to justify “unjust discrimination”. It is far more Christian to open our hearts to gays than it is to exclude them from our lives, and that is a message I want my children to learn. That is why I would not want my sons in Boy Scouts as it is at the present. There are other loving and helpful organizations (such as 4-H) that young people can join. Love is our greatest gift to the world, and I can find nothing remotely Christian in rejecting gays, as people once rejected the lepers and tax collectors that Christ embraced.

      • Objectivetruth

        Catholics love greatly homosexuals. We love them so much that we refuse to have them alienate themselves from God’s eternal love by living the gay lifestyle.

    • Caroline

      “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.” Excellent, Richard! That should be the focus of our treatment of ALL people, regardless of sexual orientation. BSA is NOT accepting gays with respect, compassion, and sensitivity under its current rules, which makes it an anti-Catholic hate group.

      • Objectivetruth

        Nothing wrong with a boy that has homosexual tendencies joining the Boy Scouts. It’s when they are living out their homosexual disorder in the gay lifestyle and culture and try to be a scout as a gay individual, cross dresser, etc. that the Church objects to. The CCC is saying respect and love the difficult cross that the homosexual boy has, but the CCC does not accept at all the boy’s acting on his homosexual urge and living a life of the gay lifestyle possibly including sodomy.

        • Well by your definition a boy scout coming out to his scout leader and saying that he is gay should still be able to get the eagle scout award. Sadly, there have been boys told that they are not allowed to get their eagle scout because they admit they are gay. That is what this proposed change in policy would fix. It would make it so that a boy can come out to his troop and his leadership without fearing that he will be kicked out.

          The scouts still have rules against sexual activity and people under age 18 should not be engaging in sexual activity at all. I would expect a boy could be kicked out for having sex with a girl if it is found out so the same thing would apply to gay scouts.

          • Objectivetruth

            No, that is not what I’m saying. Please don’t put words in my mouth.

          • msmischief

            “Gay” as used in standard English does not having the orientation but acting upon it.

      • Richard

        you sound like a progressive nun…

    • Jacob Suggs

      You misunderstand what the Boy Scouts are, what they’re for, and what they are doing with this policy. Lets stick with your example, because it actually demonstrates the issue pretty well.

      First, your assumption that everyone masturbates is wrong I know for a fact that at least one person has never done it all. But second, there is a difference between doing that once and deciding that it is a good thing and doing it all the time. There is even a difference between becoming somehow addicted to such actions and finding oneself repeatedly doing them, and claiming that it’s a good healthy activity that people should engage in.

      A person who fails and does the act once, or even repeatedly probably shouldn’t be excluded from BSA unless circumstances become severe.

      But a person who CLAIMS THAT IT IS OK, refuses to change his mind, and insists on telling everyone else that it is ok SHOULD be banned..

      This is the issue at hand. It is not about an organization excluding sinners. It is about the organization excluding people who teach that sin is good. The key purpose of the scouts is to help raise moral men. People who actively act against that goal should not be allowed in. This is not saying they should be ostracized – the entire world is not the boy scouts, and the boy scouts are not expected to avoid all non boy scouts.

      It’s just common sense. You don’t let people who insist that the world is run by a lizard men conspiracy teach history. A Catholic Church doesn’t let a Buddhist teach its young members that Buddhism is true during Catholic Religious Ed. You don’t let practicing homosexuals teach their morality as morality.

    • cestusdei

      Gay men taking young boys camping. What could go wrong?

    • Howard Richards

      So, you are saying BOTH that “banning and shunning of homosexuals” is “a sign of ‘unjust discrimination'”, AND, two sentences later, “Homosexuality is no better and no worse than other sexual practices deemed unhealthy by the Catholic Church — masturbation, fornication, pornographic fetishes — and so forth.” So you think that scouts should embrace “masturbation, fornication, pornographic fetishes” or it is “unjust discrimination”.

      No dice.

    • Czech U. Fax

      “Homosexuality is no better and no worse than other sexual practices deemed unhealthy by the Catholic Church”

      Wrong. The CCC also teaches that the practice of homosexuality is among the most grave of sins: “The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are ‘sins that cry to heaven’: the blood of Abel, the sin of the Sodomites, the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan,
      injustice to the wage earner.” CCC, # 1867.

      • Right except the sin of the sodomites was lack of hospitality not engaging in sodomy. Good try though.

        • Peregrinator

          Yes, that is why even to this day we refer to inhospitality as sodomy.

        • Objectivetruth


        • Objectivetruth

          Really, Paul? Lack of hospitality is so horrible that it is a sin that cries to heaven? Good try though.

        • Austin Ruse

          LOL…seriously, do you konw how silly this sounds?

          • Where the sins of Sodom and Gomorrah are alluded to in the Hebrew scriptures or the New Testament, they are: pride, excess of food, failure to care for the poor and needy, inhospitality — especially inhospitality.

            In fact, the Bible itself expressly describes the sin of Sodom elsewhere as radical inhospitality. According to the prophet Ezekiel, the real “guilt” of the Sodomites was the fact that, although they had “pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease,” they “did not aid the poor and needy” and were “haughty” (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

            49 Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did an abomination before me. So I removed them, when I saw it.

            I recognize that some may suggest that the word abomination here refers to sodomy but I don’t think that is very accurate. In this context it makes sense that the word abomination refers more to the refusal to repent and follow the way of god.

            • Austin Ruse

              Oh brother. Anyone can look up almost any translation of the bible, dozens of them, and you find that the men wanted the guests to be brought out so they could “know” them which is understood as having sex with. other translations spell out know as “have sex with.” Now you may hold that “know” does not mean sex and that “know” means get to know in which case your understanding that

              Sodom fell for lack of hospitality falls apart.

              You say this translation “is not very accurate.” Well, good for you.

              • Sure but in that instance the problem would not be that the sex is sodomy but that the sex is rape. And not just rape but gang rape. Sure you could focus on the same-sex part of it (ignoring that they were supposed to be angels, making it even more strange). I think we can all agree that there is a big difference between consensual sex and gang rape. Notice in the passage though, nobody actually has sex with the visitors. They threaten it but they don’t actually do it because they are blinded and can’t find the door.

                In this case, I look at it more as a last straw that follows all the other things that the people of Sodom did that were problematic. I quoted a different section of the bible so that you could consider that elsewhere in the bible the “sin of Sodom” is specifically set out and described. I would hope that God would need more than people threatening to rape visitors in order to destroy an entire town. It doesn’t make sense that the threat was the only thing problematic.

                • Bobby Trosclair

                  Our first pope made it quite clear that the sins of Sodom were many, but sin leads to more sin,and sexual sins are not exempt. Peter also taught that those that try to lead Christians away from the truth of scripture, to reject the teachings of the Church, to corrupt the young, and to normalize sin, are judged equally with those who commit the sin:

                  if [God] condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man,living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.

                  Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord.12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.

                  13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight.They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaamson of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

                  17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.” (2 Peter 2)

                • Austin Ruse

                  It says “know” and “have sex with”. It does not say rape and the bible is not shy about talking about forced sex. What’s more, so Lot offered his daughters to be raped? Really?

                  • msmischief

                    Yes. Lot panicked at the thought of violating hospitality and offered the girls instead. One notes that the angels in question thought rather less well of the offer and firmly put an end to that.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      And hospitality was letting the townsmen have sex with the male guests? and sodom was destroyed because he declined? Right.

                  • I thought the problem here was the crowd who wanted to know the angels. It doesn’t sound like the angels would just agree to participate. Thus, if the crowd had been successful, they would have raped the angels. Rape is not about sex but about power and humiliation. So to condemn these men is to condemn rape not sex.

                    And don’t you find it problematic that Lot was quick to offer up his daughter to the crowd? Is it somehow better that a virgin daughter be raped than two men? What makes you think the daughter would submit willingly anymore than the angels?

                    • Austin Ruse


                      Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

                      6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look,
                      I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them
                      out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do
                      anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my

                      I know

    • tedseeber

      Gay older boys mixing with younger boys, what could possibly go wrong with that?

  • publiusnj

    One more reason I look to Christ’s Church for moral teaching. All other organizations (and even individuals in the Church) can be corrupted.

  • tom

    As Brother André Marie, M.I.C.M. wisely noted, below, there are other organizations that can serve boys better than the old BSA paradigm, under endless attack by the Democratic Party and the homosexual lobby. Scout organizations that are closer to home, with Faith-based leaders are the organizations of the future with fascinating potential. Each Faith-based community would be stronger with scouting components and, perhaps, merge into a K of C membership at an appropriate age. Integrating a Catholic education with scout-like achievements is out there…waiting. So, this attack is, in fact, a blessing in disguise.

    The Marxist ideologues will continue to push…successfully…for the eradication of Christianity in the public square, eradication of heterosexual marriage with legitimate children, and the elimination of any strong (armed under the 2nd Amendment) individuals vis a vis an ever more powerful socialist state. In a way, the demise of the Boy Scouts is the best thing that could happen if we are to rebuild a Christian-based society again.

    Ad Altare Dei!

    • tamsin

      Agreed. Boy Scouts is a poor vehicle for teaching truth. Ever heard of a sit-and-get?

      I say BSA needs to devolve into a pure sport, e.g. camping as it feeds into outdoor sports. No moral teaching. Parents can sign up their kids knowing they will get what they get in the way of “scoutmasters” as coaches and “scouts” as teammates. Leave the religious liberty fight to the churches, proper.

      The new scouts can compete with sports, which is where all the boys are these days anyway. Blessedly, sports does not try to inculcate any values in the way BSA has tried, and fails.

      There is no moral consensus in America anymore. Why should scouts be any different than soccer? BSA should not be a vehicle for teaching lies. Soccer doesn’t. You just play, and you win or lose.

      • tom

        The Democratic Party and the Gay Lobby are out to destroy a wonderful organization and will succeed. We have to move on and replace it with more local-church oriented groups that can be even better as suggested by the Brother.

        • rand2410


          • tom

            Just as the Church has been removed by Obama and Leftist judges from processing adoptions and will have its hospitals closed down, the juggernaut to ruin the BSA by the Democrat and Gay Lobby can’t be stopped. They’ve succeeded in frightening companies like UPS from supporting scouts and wont stop. Until the Leftists on the Supreme Court erode the First Amendment, churches are still FREE to inculcate positive values. I’m saying we can do better than the BSA for the kids….if the sheperds in the RCC will do their jobs.

          • msmischief

            You gotta know when to fold ’em.

            We know the wheat and tares will grow together until harvest.

        • newcatholic

          Why? Your argument seems to be that Scouting is under attack, therefore Catholics should abandon it. But it is not Scouting that is the problem, it is those who attack it. Why not fight for it? Why would it be preferable for Catholics ghettoize into their own groups rather than fight for the few groups actually out in the public eye that still stand for something?

          • cestusdei

            We are being forced into a ghetto rather then choosing to be in one.

      • cestusdei

        The basis of Scouting is the oath and the law, which are moral. If that goes then so does the BSA.

      • Jacob Suggs

        Because morality is important, whether there is a consensus or not, and sports really aren’t. Or at least aren’t on the same level. If you want to take your kids camping, do it yourself. If you want them to play soccer, put em on soccer team.

        Boy Scouts is about raising boys into moral men. That’s what it’s for. There is no reason for it to stop that.

        • tom

          Tamsin does have an odd philosophy divorced from the principles of the BSA.

      • rand2410

        The moral decay of our country is WHY Scouting should remain unchanged. What lies are taught in Scouting?

    • tedseeber

      I’m beginning to think any KofC sponsored Scouts should become a Squires Circle instead.

      • tom

        They’ll work it out as one option if our Bishops don’t prevent a Catholic-based troop. The bishops show up on odd sides of all kinds of enterprises.

        • tedseeber

          If the boy scouts are going to be homosexual, I don’t want Catholic kids exposed to that kind of moral relativism.

      • And the boys will all leave to join the Troop down the street at the Methodist church.

        • tom

          Private people can join private organizations in Americawithout trusion by the likes of Obama…yet.

        • Kathy

          Doubt it, Todd.

          • We want Scouting and its ideals and activities, not something else. That’s what I don’t get about Catholics promoting all these alternatives, especially those that only attract a certain type of traddie parent (Blue Knights). I don’t want to be LC affiliated which rules out Conquest. The option Brother Andre Marie listed are best, provided the Bishops work in unity to promote them.

        • tedseeber

          Only the homosexuals will, given this.

  • Chris

    Same technique homosexual advocates use with the APA and other organizations, including the Episcopal Church. TEC started down this same road years ago employing the same tactics and has been losing membership ever since. It is time for Catholics and traditional Christians to make their choice and take a stand. I was both a Scout and a Scout Leader (and a former Episcopalian who’s come home…), and it’s sad to see what’s happening to the BSA. But we can’t continue to support the homosexualization of our society. To go along is tantamount to endorsement. I agree with Brother Andre Marie below — find an alternative. If need be, start your own. Pull your kids, your time, your talent and your treasure. Do it now; don’t sit like the proverbial frog in the pot until the water boils. The BSA will not reverse course now; they’ve passed the tipping point. To wait and hope is a waste of time and energy. Walk away and shake off the dust from your feet. (Mt 10:14-15, Acts 13:51-52)

    • tom

      Same with removing kids from most public school indoctrinations or getting elected to the School Board to find out what they’re up to. The bad guys (and Caroline) are on the march to finish off WEstern Civilization and we’re transfixed at the TV.

    • Chris, I AGREE, I have 7 boys, all were scouts and loved it. One saved his fathers life because of the training he had in Scout First Aid.They are all grown now but if they were young today, I would pull them out so fast and look for an alternative, Thank You brother Andre.

  • msmischief

    First we need Tom to define what he means by “gay.” Excluding him when he is living chastely and intends to live chastely can certainly be objected to, but many people use the term to conflate orientation and activity.

    Anyone who conflated his sexual desires and his sexual activities as if they were one and the same is unfit to be an Eagle Scout.

    • tom

      Mischievous, to be sure! Leave the boys alone and free from the attacks by the Gay Lobby.

  • Guest

    I wrote a whole post about my thoughts on the issue but I won’t repost the whole thing here.

  • Brother André Marie, M.I.C.M. lists several organizations that are about exploration. I listed 3 boys’ clubs that are Catholic to the core on a blog 2 months ago: Blue Knights, Faternus, and Conquest. I think both sets are probably better than BSA.

    • I_M_Forman

      Thank you as well.

  • Katherine

    I wrote an entire post on my thoughts on the Boy Scout Proposal. I won’t paste the whole thing here, but here is the link

  • Caroline

    I think there’s something kind of creepy about all these little chaps running around in military uniforms and being taught bigotry. It doesn’t surprise me to learn that Baden-Powell was probably a closet queen. I guess BSA fills a niche for some people, but parents and their kids are increasingly leaning toward healthier, kinder, more constructive and, yes, more Christian attitudes. Anyone comfortable with his or her sexuality is not going to get their knickers in a twist over gays in BSA. People who object to homosexuality should try to be models of their chosen roles, not tormentors that drive teens to suicide.

    • tom

      Disagreeing with an amadon like Caroline used to be called common sense. Slandering the dead is not surprising when it comes to you and your remarkable shallowness.

    • I_M_Forman

      Caroline, you wouldn’t know a Trojan Horse if it came up to you and bit you on the rump.

    • rand2410

      Well then you do not understand the core values of Scouting. Scouting is a leadership program. Sexuality is not part of the program and should remain outside the program. Signed a former Scout.

    • Not too bright, Caroline: bigotry is not part of the BSA.

  • cestusdei

    The homosexual activists will not quit until they have destroyed anyone and anything that disagrees with them. The Scouts are one of the last bastions and they are on the kill list. Those who refuse will join those who will suffer persecution. Fare well Scouts we will miss you. Most parents will simply pull their sons out of the organization and it will die.

    • rand2410

      The ironic part is the homosexual activists constantly yell about tolerance and many are quite intolerant of any opposing opinion. Ironic to the MAX.

  • andreagregorio

    The new policy is excellent news and directly indicates how the Scouts are moving away from inherited bigotry based on narrow interpetations of Scripture by Vatican ‘theologians’, in the direction of modern intellection based on accumulated science and its analysis. We all know how priests and bishops are self-tortured (and how they attack others) based on utterly archaic views of human relationships and sexuality based on Old Testament anxieties and St Paul’s own guilt over his homosexuality (the thorn in his flesh, as he called it).
    Time, I think, to move away from such nonsenses and self-absorptions and mortifications and positions where clerics punish in others what they cannot cope with in themselves, to positions of compassion and real understanding. I wish the Scouts all the best.
    If anyone thinks that the current internal sexual psychopathology of the Church is helping the Church, they need to think very carefully again. On the contrary, such rubbish is driving young people away from the Church in their millions. It will, if it continues, bring the whole Institution down in ruins.

    • Scott Waddell

      This is disproved by the Episcopal Church. When they started embracing the homosexual agenda and even ordained an openly homosexual bishop, they thought people would flock to their church. Well, those flocks have either been stuck in traffic for years or are coming to church disguised as empty pews. Meanwhile, Catholic diocese that recapture their traditions are seeing both mass attendance increases as well as adequate vocations. There is nothing archaic about true chastity (that is, sexual contact is only wholesome and good in the context of a man and a women married to each other), it is simply the correct way to live.

      • Objectivetruth

        Some of the mainline Protestant faiths have traveled so far from apostolic tradition and doctrine that there’s not much recognize able as true Christianity. At Easter this year, I read an article where an Episcopal bishop was saying Christ’s ressurection is not necessarily a main tenent of Christian belief.

    • The good news is that it’s not just the Scouts. The whole world is moving away from bigotry! The sooner the better. History will not look kindly on the haters.

      • Bobby Trosclair

        I hear that kind of phrase used frequently by those advocating for the pro-homosexual position – “History will not look kindly on the haters;” “they will be on the wrong side of History;” “we have to be on the right side of History.” It all sounds so Marxist, with the implication that “History” is an irresistible force that brings all under the sway of political correctness.

        Instead of worrying about whether you are on the right side of “History,” why not just side with the moral thing, as the Church teaches?

      • Bigotry is not the issue, well andrea, he seems bigoted about Catholicism.

  • Nerinab

    Mr. Ruse, thank you for bringing the poll bias to the public’s attention. I actually took the survey and when presented with the question you cite in your article, thought “now who is going to refuse an Eagle Scout given this situation. Anyone with common decency would award it.” I just don’t know how the Scout Oath will remain valid. Are there now two versions of “morally straight?” (no pun intended).

  • What a disgusting situation when an honored organization, The BSA, have succumbed to the corrupting culture which the “Once Great Nation” is now on the cusp of transition to another Sodom and Gomorrah. The disease has captured the Highest Office in the Govt. of the USA!!!!!!


    Sleaze charge:
    ‘I took drugs, had homo sex with Obama’

    Barack Obama &
    Larry Sinclair: Cocaine, Sex, Lies & Murder?

  • Pingback: Boy Scouts Move to Allow Gay Members - Page 5 - Christian Forums()

  • This article is full of half truths & lies. The BSA Key 3 were in favor of keeping the policy as they had just reaffirmed it last year. The poll (which I took) offered to the chance to both say that a boy should not be denied his Eagle AND that you would not want an openly gay Scout Leader. The compromise proposal that came out of the survey simple treats gay and straight youth the same. You’re not old enough to be having sex, so don’t. If you do we can remove you from scouts. Ya’ll do remember that “straight” sex outside of marriage is immoral too, right? Since some of don’t seem to be clear on this – the BSA is strictly nondenominational, so us Catholics don’t get to make the rules for everyone. And as far as making it a “moral free” outdoor club that tamsin suggested. The best sports coaches teach sportsmanship, doing your best, etc. Which all have a moral lesson in them.

    • tedseeber

      The difference being on a single gender scouting trip, heterosexuals don’t have any girls to tie up and rape. Homosexuals have plenty of younger boys to tie up and rape. Adding temptation doesn’t help anybody stay moral.

  • TiffanyinTexas

    They used scenarios because it is easy to hate a group and not so justifiable to discriminate against an individual. It just makes all the people think about what they are doing.

  • patricia m.

    Thanks very much for posting alternative boy scouts clubs that are based on faith. Let’s leave the BSA to the homosexuals. And PLEASE note that Girls Scouts is also trash. Favor American Heritage Girls instead.

  • “The number one item in the Boy Scout law is to be trustworthy. The process ought to be stopped and there ought to be a housecleaning and all these untrustworthy guys should get the boot.”

  • ME1991

    Sure, boys should not be denied the benefits of scouting. Homosexuals and the like can start their very own scouting organization. As far as I’m concerned as a BSA mother and wife they can completely plagiarize the BSA program and be “separate but equal”.

    • How Christian. Not!

      • Objectivetruth

        Actually, very Christian. She’s protecting the morals of heterosexual young Christian boys from a gay lifestyle that Christianity has always called gravely immoral and sinful.

  • Jerry B-P Riggs

    The Scout Law states that “if [a Scout] were to violate his honor by telling a lie, or by cheating, or by not doing exactly a given task when trusted on his honor,.he may be directed to hand over his Scout badge.” That fits the description of a boy who takes his oath fraudulently to keeping among other things, moral straightness; and then comes out with the lie he has kept about being gay at his Eagle board of review. Not only should he be unworthy of the Eagle award, but of every advancement he has earned before that, though he fulfilled their requirements in all other ways but honor.

    • Austin Ruse

      Nobody asks anybody their sexual orientation. Keeping this to yourself is just good manners. No one is asking anyone to lie.

  • Tomm

    You’d have to be absolutely and positively insane and horribly brainwashed to allow homosexuals to have intensive contact with your own kids, your own boys. The danger is just too big. Even though only a few % of the population, they are involved in scandals so often. It’s not just the gay priest scandal.

    Take this example from Holland, about how a Latvian homosexual pedophile raped DOZENS of children (0-4 years) in daycare, and his homosexual “husband” knew about it and did nothing: (in Dutch)

    Tell all parents you know: do not let homosexuals near young boys (or girls, by the way, as their possible sado-pedophilia could include enjoying abusing young girls)

    • Tomm
    • Tomm, You found a few examples of homosexual pedophiles. There are approximately 12 million homosexual men and women in the United States (3.7% of 317 million people) and you offer that as proof that the BSA should discriminate against all gays. Really?

      Maybe you should take Mark Twain’s advice,
      “Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to
      open it and remove all doubt..”

      • Tomm

        I am Dutch. I got another example for you, also out of Holland, with only 17 million people:

        Also this case, a homosexual with a complicit partner. I acknowledge that there are also hetero pedosexuals, yet, it is striking how two of the most notorious recent child abuse scandals in the Netherlands involve gays and their complicit partner. This does not constitute scientific evidence, but it should make sensible and responsible parens think – compare: if the Rottweilers lobby keeps telling you how “scientific evidence shows Rottweilers are safe”, but the two Rottweilers you happen have in your neighborhoud are mean beasts, you should perhaps rethink and entertain the possibility that the Rottweilers lobby is not as disinterested as we would like to think.

        In Holland, dozens of parents and their children saw their lives being absolutely demolished due to the rape by a homosexual pedophile, whose partner was an accomplice. They only found out too late. I advise Americans to think for themselves and not take the gay lobby at their word.

        can parents not to drink the Kool Aid you and other lobbyists offer them. For them it is NOT too late.

      • Austin Ruse

        More like between 1 and 2%. Moreover, there is no agreed upon definition of homosexuality anyway. Read Professor Paul McHugh’s amicus brief in Prop 8. He shows that even sympathetic academics admit there is no agreed upon definition. What’s more, he shows that homosexual feelings change drastically over time.

      • Objectivetruth

        Austin is right, and you are wrong. There are between 1-2% total ( men and women) of the US population claiming to be homosexual.

        I’m suggesting Todd you also take Mark Twain’s advice also when he said:
        “Get your facts straight first, then you can distort them as you please.”

  • Annie

    Bravo Crisis for once again giving us news that is trustworthy.

    By the way, that’s also one of the oaths of the Boy Scouts of America. Anyone who knows about scouting, knows that there are oaths that a boy takes to become a boy scout. If the boy feels that he no longer can take that oath, then he can leave the boy scouts. Does that make him bad, no. It just means that he would be giving “lip service” to something he doesn’t believe in anymore.

    Are there other ways for a boy to go camping, etc. Sure, his Dad or uncle or older cousin and brothers could all go hunting or camping, etc.

    Now, let’s talk about a new group “Bullying Gays”. Bullying Gays are not like my friends who are gay or lesbian. My friends know that if they want to start a community group that is made up of gay or lesbian values, they are free in this country to do so. They are not aligned with “Bullying Gays” who try to impose their beliefs onto other people or organizations. The Bullying Gay reminds me of a child whose toy breaks, and he is made and angry about that. But then he goes and wants the toys of every other kid with a toy to be broken, so that everyone will be angry and sad. This is an immature point of view but it is typical of a Bullying Gay. I may like broccoli and my cousin may not but that doesn’t mean I hate her. I may love and respect my gay and lesbian friends but because I think her lifestyle is not good for her, does not mean I hate her.

    I want to tell my gay and lesbian relatives and friends that I love them and they know that and they aren’t about to impose their beliefs on others and call it “equality”.

    • One of the Scout oaths is honesty. Yet surprisingly rather than rewarding the honesty of young scouts who come out as gay they are kicked out of the scouts. They should be celebrated for sticking to their oaths even when it means being kicked out. Instead they are told to hide who they are until they get their eagle scout award.

      • Kathy

        Paul, And at what age does a “young” scout decide he is gay? This is one of the most significant problems with the gay agenda. They are leading young kids astray with their insistence that anyone who even thinks he is gay must be so. So, for example, let us say a 10 year old has a strong bond of friendship with another boy his age. He likes spending time with him, playing sports, watching t.v., playing video games, having sleepovers, campouts, etc. All normal activites for kids that age. So, since his little world is probably flooded with gay references….media, other friends, even instruction at school…..he begins to think he must be gay. If he makes the mistake of confiding in the wrong person……a school counselor perhaps, happens all the time……and the counselor has been brainwashed not to discourage someone from their supposed “gayness,” he ends up believing that his feelings of friendship are actually signs that he is a homosexual. I believe this is happening more often than we even imagine!!

        • ME1991

          You are absolutely correct. I think this happens all the time. Once a boy has even the thought or suggestion (even in teasing) that he is gay he may believe it and begin to nurture those thoughts. With our over sexualized society who hasn’t given it a thought? It is a self fulfilling prophesy to some. The devil loves to prey upon those who have these thoughts and convince them that they are in fact gay. Then some older boy or man comes along and does further damage. By then, the boy is fully convinced and living the gay lifestyle believing he was born that way. Nothing could be further from the truth. It was a huge lie all along.

          • You obviously don’t know any gay men. You can’t create same-sex attraction where it does not exist. One does not become attracted to men just by thinking it might be a good thing. Most of the time attraction is suppressed by receiving negative images about gay men such that the gay child doesn’t want to admit he is gay. Without those suggestions, children tell people they are gay as young as 3. In the same way, transgender children exhibit signs that they are transgender at a young age if those signs aren’t immediately rejected by their parents.

            We are seeing more and more children coming out at a younger age because there are more and more parents out there who don’t raise children to believe it is wrong. You can deny it all you want but that doesn’t make it go away.

            It can seem at times like it is a choice because there are many bisexuals who experiment with the same sex and later go back to the opposite sex because they determined that they weren’t really gay. But that doesn’t mean gay men don’t exist.

            • Austin Ruse

              Actually, homosexuality can be caused by physical and psychological factors. Early childhood sexual abuse is one way.

        • I think it is sufficient to leave it up to a boy to proclaim to his troop that he is gay. I think most kids are able to differentiate between friendship and sexual attraction once they are developed. Maybe you should re-examine your own childhood. If you were to present to the school counselor in the specific version of events you described would you believe the counselor who suggested you might be lesbian? I doubt it. Why should it matter at what age that declaration is made? The mere fact that a young boy scout is gay should not be a reason to exclude him from the troop.

          • Kathy

            You used the phrase “young scout” yourself indicating someone who is not yet sexually developed. A “young scout” tends not to have any sexual feelings at this point as he certainly is not even interested in girls yet! If he is steered in the direction of his friendship as being “gay” as he has no clue at that point what he is feeling he might very well confuse his intense feelings of friendship as something else. I specifically said if the young boy confided that he thought he might be “gay” I did not say the counselor would suggest it to him. As a 25 year teacher and school psychologist who has a very clear understanding of child development I can tell you that the age of declaration is very significant! I can assure you that I don’t need to “re-examine” my own childhood as I would not even have known what homosexuality was until my late teens!!

        • Folks, you are born gay or straight. We have something called scientific research and peer reviewed studies. It helps if you get some of your information from objective sources, not just religious websites.

          • Kathy

            And exactly who has proven that you are born gay or straight? Give us the actual research data and ‘peer reviewed studies.”

            • Kathy & Austin, Like I said, do your own research. But it’s clear from your comments that “facts” that are not published by a religious website are not going to be accepted by you, so I am not going to waste my time doing it for you.

              • Kathy

                Ah, the typical response from someone who has no “facts.” “I won’t waste my time doing it for you.” HA! Good one, Todd!

              • Austin Ruse

                We don’t have to do our own resaerch. There is not a single peer reviewed study that shows homosexuality is inborn. There was a gene study and a hypothalmus study, neither of whihc were ever repeated adn both were suspect at the time.

                • And why does it matter how exactly it comes about? If you are straight, I think it is safe to assume that you were always attracted to the opposite sex. You can’t possibly know what it is like to be gay other than by talking to those who are. Most gay men will tell you that they were gay their entire lives and never had to make a choice in the matter. The problem is, most of those commenting here seem to believe there is a gay agenda and so won’t spend a lot of time listening to accounts of gay men and how life is for them.

                  I can tell you first hand that I knew since adolescence that I was attracted to men and it took me until I was 24 to admit that to myself. All those years in denial, those feelings didn’t disappear. But I can tell you that I am much happier after I have come out and accept my sexuality as a part of me. I have also read many personal stories from gay men who talk about how they were gay from a very young age. I would much rather listen to a gay man to find out what it means to be gay than I would a priest.

                  • Austin Ruse

                    Actually, homosexual men and women show a profoundly elastic self-understanding about their sexual attractions. They can be homo or hetero, strong or weak. They change throughout the lifecycle. That is why there is no agreed upon definition of homosexuality.

                  • Austin Ruse

                    It actually doesnt matter how it comes about. Sex between men is disordered. Some people on your side believe that if folks can be convinced it is inborn, then how can anyone be blamed. The answer of course like sin original sin. We are all born one way or another that leads to sin and we are all to avoid the ways we are bent. The problem is that homosexuals want us to understand that the homosexual impulse is not bent and the homosexual act is not an abomination. But even more, folks on your side want us to celebrate what is mostly just gross or laughable (not the being but the act).

                    • Well since you won’t listen to me, just read the account of the gay basketball player who just came out. Tell me if it sounds like he made a conscious decision to be gay. His story echoes that of all other gay men who have come out. They feel a huge weight off their shoulders when they finally tell the truth to everyone around them.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Being born that way and making a conscious decision are two different things. One may not have made a conscious decision and not have been born that way. A psychological trauma, for instance, and its resultant homosexuality may be neither inborn or consciously chosen. But no matter what disorder one is born with or develops does not alleviate anyone of the necessity of resisting it.

                • Dana English

                  The genetic notion is ridiculous. What other personality trait/behavior is genetic? I can’t think of one.

          • Austin Ruse

            There is not a single peer reviewed study that shows anyone is “born” gay. This is one of the great canards of our time.

          • Dana English

            I read about a study the other day (believe it was a reprint of an article in Crisis by Dennis Prager) that 2/3 of homosexual men had had intercourse with a woman. Homosexuality is a choice. A very bad choice that should be actively discouraged.

          • Anonymous


            The whole born gay/gay gene theory is the biggest load of pseudo-science I’ve ever heard. Homosexuality is a devious BEHAVIOR. I take it people are born alcoholics, rapists, murders too. Is that it? I take it pedophiles, polygamists, & zoophiles must be “born that way” too? What a bunch of BS

      • Austin Ruse

        “Scout Master, I have to honestly tell you that I cam a cleptomaniac. I steal things and I will continue to steal things. It is a part of who I am. Can I still be a Scout? No? But, gosh, I am being honest!”

  • Tomm

    You can’t make it up.

    Dutch magazine reports another (alleged) case of pedophilia. Editor of “Kidsweek” magazine, a homosexual man of 34, and his boyfriend, had pedophilic images and movies on their computer.


    by Servaas van der Laan 26 Apr 2013

    Maarten H.* is suspected of possessing child pornography

    On the computer of Kids Week deputy editor Martin H. and his (boy-)friend are 41 pictures and 61 movies found with child pornography. The children’s magazine is H. put on hold.

    The 34-year-old H. must next Wednesday to answer in court.

    Justice was in sight after the pair from their joint computer several times access was sought to sites where you can download child pornography.
    illegal material

    Further investigation revealed that a considerable amount of banned and illegal material on the computer was brought.

    * in Holland suspects are often not named in full, just in case they turn out to be innocent later on.
    Kids Week, part of the Persgroep, is in shock after publication of the suspicion. “We had absolutely no suspicion,” says director Mark Termeer. ‘

  • Danielck

    Our son will NEVER be a “boy” scout. And he will not be a “girl” scout. As a parent, we (mother and father as one in the Sacrament of Marriage) will do everything we can to protect him and show him that God defines heterosexuality, and that sex defines homosexuality. Because without perverted sex, one cannot be homo-sexual.

  • vkelch

    As a permanenet deacon, father of a Cub Scout, and institutional represenative for a Scout troop at our parish, I really don’t know what my son will be getting into. We’re in consultation now with some of the troops sponsored by evangelical protestant congregations, for they are also concerned about all of this. Speaking as an Eagle Scout, I wish the Boy Scouts would just stick to their current policies with determination and stay away from the “sex” issue altogether. Brother Marie has some good ideas for alternative organizations to consider if worse comes to worse. I personally would no longer support or allow my son to enter any youth organization that allows openly gay members or leaders to participate..

    • rand2410

      Well said sir. “Bully” !

      • u r killing me


  • HS

    What isn’t getting mentioned here is that the Boy Scouts also has a membership policy of being nonsectarian. It accepts all religious views. Agreeing that Boy Scouts is nonsectarian is a requirement of all members. I understand that some believe homosexuality is morally wrong. But clearly there are religions that do not hold this belief. If the Boy Scouts do not align themselves with a particular religion (they have defined this policy themselves – there is no legal reason that forces them to do this) then they are violating their own policy by allowing the beliefs of one religion dictate policy for the entire organization.

    And sorry – homosexuals are no more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. Homosexuality and pedophilia are completely unrelated.

    • Kathy

      That is actually the PC version of the story. First of all, victims of pedophilia have mostly been defined as being 11 years or younger. It is true that homosexuals usually are attracted to older boys……roughly 12 to 16,. So, in that sense you are basically right when you say homosexuals are no more likely to be pedophiles than heterosexuals. However, when you identify molestation victims in the older age ranges you will find that most of the perpetrators were homosexual. This was true in the vast majority of priest molestation cases. I would agree that most homosexuals are not molesters but that most molesters of males in the 12 to 16 age levels are homosexuals.

      • HS

        What data are you using to back up what you’re saying?

        And could you comment on my other point – the one about BSA setting their own rule that they don’t follow or align themselves with a particular religion?

        • Kathy

          John Jay College of Criminal Justice report summary of priest molesters indicated 77% of victims between ages of 11-17 and 81% were males. Here are just a few others to search: Drs. Freund and Heasman from Clarke Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto. Dr. Adrian Copeland at Peters Institute in Philadelphia. Canada’s Kingston Sexual Beahvioral Clinic. Kinsey reports from both 1948 and 1970 self-reports of homosexual behavior. There are lots of studies out there if you search. I fail to see what BSA not being aligned with any particular religion has to do with this issue.

    • u r killing me

      Take religion out of it. I just don’t want my kid having to be around those types of people and their lifestyle.

  • April 26th: The homosexual lobby is very, very powerful. If they can demand that the military change their laws, then they will infiltrate every organization and though they are few in number, they are loud and threatening. I don’t think boys who have homosexual ‘tendencies’ should be denied entrance. But never ever should adult homosexual males be permitted to be alone with those boys. Stand up to them or your children will not be safe – I’m talking about adults now…and those boys should never be in a tent alone with a homosexual man or older teenager…men having sex with men and women with women is unnatural and manifests a grave disorder so why should they be permitted to hang out with boys. Parents – stand your ground!!!

  • every independent poll shows that the majority of americans believe that gay couples should be permitted to marry. if the boy scouts want to be an exclusionary group, fine, but remove their tax-exempt status and any government support that they receive.

    • Austin Ruse

      And every time its put to a vote, even in liberal states, homosexual marriage is voted down. Is it possible that people lie to pollsters?

      • sseller

        But that’s factually inaccurate Austin. What about the three states that did legalize gay marriage back in 2012? Could the tide not be changing towards growing acceptance of gay marriage, for better or worse?

        • u r killing me

          The tide may be turning, but it doesn’t mean that everyone has to be carried by the tide or even agree with it.

        • Austin Ruse

          Only one of those was a vote of the people. When the people are allowed vote, marriage has won 32-1. the tide is not turning. In fact, 42 states now enshrine a proper understanding of marriage in law. Some tide!

          • sseller

            Actually, voters approved three gay marriage initiatives in 2012, in Washington, Maine, and Maryland. Perhaps you’re getting hung up on whether the legislature approved the measure first? In all cases, it went to a vote of the people to approve or maintain the law.

    • u r killing me

      I believe the Supreme Court already took care of that issue. This is turning into a self-inflicted wound.

      • Austin Ruse

        Actually, the Supreme Court will not impose homosexual marriage. At the worst they will sustain the courts and allow homosexual marriages to continue in California. That will leave 41 states with laws upholding man-woman marriage, most of them within their own constitutions. This is far from over and marriage proponents have a lot of running room.

        • u r killing me

          I was referring to the fact that the Scouts had already been told their membership policy isn’t a problem

  • TwoEagleParent

    The fact that this ever became an issue is a text-book case of bullying. Shame on you, LGBT activists. And, I agree with the author where he called the survey a push-poll. I felt extremely uncomfortable with the way the questions were written and knew what the hidden agenda really was. Shame on the BSA leadership.

    Shame, shame, shame.

  • Anna

    I have been a leader in the scouting movement (admittedly in Australia, but I image it is pretty much the same everywhere) for the last 10 years and would like to offer the following observations. You all seem to be unaware of how scouting works – it works on the strengths (or otherwise) or the individual group and its leaders – the overall organization exists, but is largely irrelevant to how the child experiences scouts. If you have good leaders, it will be a good, worthwhile and nurturing experience…. and what goes on will be a reflection of the values of those leaders. As a parent, it is just not good enough to send your child along and hope for the best – check out the group’s individual culture, or better still, get involved as a leader (great fun, and puts you in a unique position to be able to assist in the moral growth of children who are not so lucky in their parents). Yes there are groups out there which are in need of improvement and better leaders, but this can change if good parents become involved.
    In Aust at least, the rule is NO sex at scouts (the variety is irrelevant), and I at least tell the youth members the reason why extramarital sex is not good for them. But we would not, nor should, discriminate against a child on the basis of declared sexuality anymore than on the basis of his color or creed. Scouting is not a ghetto where the kids of just good families shelter each other, it is an environment where the less fortunate kids benefit from the example and encouragement from good leaders and fellow scouts – and to exclude confused adolescents is to fail in our duty towards them.

    • u r killing me

      If you want to do an outreach to confused adolescents feel free. That is great work. However, I didn’t have my son join Scouts in order to have to worry about or discuss why some kid is oogling him.

      You don’t put teen boys and girls in a tent overnight when they are becoming sexually active, and I sure am not going to have my kid in a tent overnight with a homosexual who is becoming sexually active.

  • Objectivetruth

    I have two boys in cub scouts. We just had “rocket day” (we shoot off the rockets we built together) and it was a lot of fun. But because of the decisions to allow gay scout masters and openly gay scouts in, my boys are done with cub scouts. I think other Catholic and Christian parents will be pulling their children out also. Why doesn’t the gay lobby realize that the reason we have our children in the boy/cub scouts is that what the scouts represents mirrors and supports what we teach our children about the natural law and Catholicism and the teachings of Christ within the Church? Frankly, not one parent in our cub scout pack will want their child around a gay scout master. Sorry all the gays that post on this site, but not one parent will want this. This is not bigotry, but flies in the face of the moral values we are trying to teach our boys so that they become good, moral men. Other parents will probably soon be pulling their boys out also so that our school’s cub scout pack will almost be non existent.

    So thank you gay lobby for destroying a good, moral and healthy activity for my boys just because of your selfish, narcissistic agenda.

    • Objectivetruth

      Also……it’s funny and beautiful how sometimes the natural law written in our hearts works! Of the 40 plus kids in our cub pack, about 1/3 are either Jewish, Muslim, or Hindu. And as you get to know the parents, I don’t think one of them will want an openly gay cub scout master or volunteer. All of them do see the boy scouts as projecting the values wwe all believe in that will help our boys become strong, valued men. Once again, sorry gay agenda people……but can you then call all of my fHindu, Jewish, and Mislim friends that won’t want their son mentored by an openly gay man bigots and haters?

  • rwg

    To All Scouts. Please look at the Boy Scout Laws and the Boy Scout Oath one more time. If you are still not sure as how to handle these homosexual people open the BIBLE and do some reading. I Think it is way past time for SCOUTS and REAL CHRISTIANS to take a stand on what GOD says and stick to it. Be strong and lets hold our ground and not cave into the sinful ways of this world today.

  • AcceptingReality

    Reading the comments below, which overwhelmingly focus on whether Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual, I have to ask; Isn’t possible that someone is trying to rewrite history? And hasn’t it occurred to anyone that even if Baden-Powell had repressed homosexual feelings it would have no bearing on whether it was right to have open homosexuality in the Boy Scouts. Here’s the skinny….if the Scouts no longer have the moral certitude to be the standard bearer for boys in the this regard then that’s too bad. A new standard bearer will have to rise from the ashes.

  • Aldo Elmnight

    I am an Eagle Scout and there is no way I will allow my children to join the scouts. The fact that they are even considering allowing open sodomites into scouts shows they have lost their moral compass.

  • cm

    The scouters that I have met in my area (the Northeast) seem overwhelming to approve of allowing open homosexuality in the boy scouts. I am an asst. Scoutmaster and it is increasingly difficult to be one to disagree with the inclusive policy. To me, it seems more than likely that the rules will be changed. However, there is an aspect of this issue that I have never heard discussed that is entirely a practical matter. As boy scouts we spend a great deal of time camping and it is useful to consider the effect of having a homosexual boy in the troop while camping. Can this boy tent with other boys in the troop? No, for similar reasons that a boy and a girl can’t share a tent. So, this boy would have to tent alone and obviously not with another homosexual scout. This results in a boy being immediately ostracized from the patrol. The patrol method is an essential part of scouting and once that breaks down many other things go with it. This is not to mention not using showers at camp, etc. If this seems over-the-top, consider how strict the rules are about ‘two-deep’ leadership, which is designed to prevent boys from being molested. The purpose of having boy scouts is not to have a ‘no gurlz’ club (@Richard) but to have a space where boys can learn virtue (desperately needed) free any type of sexual encounter. Allowing open homosexuality in the boy scouts would fundamentally change that space, which has stood the
    test of time and reason.

    • Except there have been gay boy scouts for years. The only difference was they didn’t tell you until after they got their eagle scout. One of my best friends got his eagle and then later came out as gay. The difference now will be that boys will be able to come out without worrying that they can be kicked out.

      • u r killing me

        Then he was living a lie as a scout, and wasn’t living up to the standards of the group. In my opinion.

        • Yes and he was living a lie because he was in an organization that didn’t accept him for who he was. I don’t know exactly what age he figured out he was gay or if he actually did while he was a scout but I suspect that he would have come out much earlier if the scouts were accepting. At that age it shouldn’t matter if you are gay or straight because you aren’t supposed to be having sex anyways.

          • u r killing me

            Then if he found his values were in conflict with the group, why didn’t he leave the group? I agree that kids shouldn’t be having sex at those ages, however, just as I wouldn’t mix teen boys and girls in tents, I wouldn’t mix straight and homo boys in a tent.

    • CM, First, thanks for being a Scout Leader. But Paul is right. There have been gays in the Scouts, locker rooms, military, etc. for as long as they have existed. I asked my 23 year old son and his response was that most young people just don’t care about this. It won’t be a problem because it hasn’t been a problem.

      • Marie

        CM is right. The rules are there for a reason, and a good reason, at that. Paul’s comment boils down to saying “for years people have snuck around disobeying the rules, just being careful not to get caught.” That’s not much of an argument. Just because people have been disobeying a rule (even for years) doesn’t make it a bad rule.

        That’s like saying that a rule against, oh, for example, talking out loud in the library is a bad rule simply because you’ve been to the library lots of times and heard people conversing with their friends right by the sign that says ‘quiet please.’ Um. No. That doesn’t make it a bad rule, it just makes it a badly enforced rule.

    • u r killing me

      Stand your ground. There are those who support you. Don’t be afraid to speak your mind. The rest of our kids are also counting on you to be strong.

    • Bobby Trosclair

      Those pushing for homosexual membership in the BSA frequently use the argument that, as cm has heard, “this isn’t a big deal to the boys…boys are no longer hung up about gays…they all want inclusion.” This isn’t surprising, given the nature of the morality-neutral education process we put most boys through.

      We provide leadership opportunities to boys to help develop them into competent, healthy adults. Scouts should be the ones to pick a campsite, and to run a campout with minimal adult supervision. Although the BSA is based on the patrol method and boy leadership, the adult leaders are there to provide mentorship and (very importantly) safety oversight. Until they know better, many boys would be very okay with the idea of taking fireworks into the woods for a campout, leaving food on the ground where bears could be attracted to a campsite, or jumping off a cliff into a pool of unknown depth. Youths often think that just because trouble hasn’t happened to them, it never can. Adults are there to set guidelines and boundaries so that boys can experience scouting and the outdoors safely. Although risk education is included (every scout handbook sold has a tear-out section on youth safety that every parent is supposed to go through with their scout, and the three “Rs” of youth safety and some cyber safety are advancement items), National seems to have abdicated responsibility and common sense in allowing people with a sexual attraction to the same sex into the camps (and in the cases of youths, the same tents) of members of that same sex.

      Another concern: The BSA currently has very effective youth safety guidelines, which parallel the youth safety guidelines in the Catholic Church. That is one of the reason both the BSA and the Church have seen (thank God) a dramatic drop in abuse allegations over the last few years. (That, and Pope Benedict’s wise decision to bar those with a same-sex attraction from the priesthood. Sadly, the BSA appears ready to ignore that lesson.) But the BSA’s youth protection policies are largely (not wholly) focused on protecting youths from adults within the scouting organization. The changes that may be necessary to deal with gay youths within the scouts will have a very negative impact on an essential element of the Scout system of boy-led leadership.

      What is the standard response of every Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmaster when a boy comes to him with a question? “Have you asked your Senior Patrol Leader (SPL) yet?” But because of the BSA’s patrol-based, boy leadership ethos that is the brainchild of Baden-Powell, the possible changes will now require SPLs to make many decisions relating to youth safety – such as who will (or won’t) share a tent, who will (or won’t) go with another scout in the shower room, who will (or won’t) pair up for a project where a boy will be alone with another boy, and so forth. Those kind of administrative issues are usually done by the SPL and Patrol Leaders, who are the boy leadership within a patrol. They didn’t used to be youth safety issues and decisions, now they may well be. Is it fair (or prudent) to ask a 16, 17, or even 18 year old boy to make those kind of decisions that could come back to haunt us? Or do we abandon much of the traditional boy leadership that has worked so well in order to ensure Youth Safety?

      • Bobby, At least you understand the program. But these boys
        and to a lesser extent adults are already in the program. Your argument seems to be “ignorance is bliss”. If you believe they are a threat (I don’t) then you should be arguing for a “ask so we can remove” not a DADT policy.

  • patty

    I am the single mom of an 18 yr old who recently became an Eagle Scout. I put him in Cub Scouts so many years ago as a single mom precisely because I wanted him to be around decent men. I was never disappointed. As a little boy without his own dad to accompany him on trips, would I ever have considered scouts for him if I knew active homosexuals were going along?? Of course not And so Boy Scouts would scare off a good number of young boys who need it most if they succeed in changing their policy. If the homosexuals were really into the idea of scouting and not just radical acceptance and political sway, they’d go and start their own version of scouting.

  • Lord Baden Powell a
    Homosexual? Also other known Homosexuals: Julius Cesar, Sir Isaac Newton,
    Little Abner, Santa Clause, Hulk Hogan, Genghis Khan, Peter Rabbit, Ronald
    Reagan, George Washington, Abe Lincoln….well all the Presidents and their
    wives, Abe Hoffman, Henry Kissinger, Madeline Albright, Shaka Zula, Micky and
    Mini Mouse, Godzilla, Thor, and of course the most famous of all …. Rudolf
    the red Nose Reindeer. A person that defines himself ultimately by their sexual proclivities (homo or hetero) is usually thought of as a “Sex Fiend” of some sort. If one’s sexual wiring trumps Duty to God or Country or Boy Scouts or anything else, to me that is an unbalanced person who needs some help. Will the Scout Law now read ….. “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to cultivate my Sexual Desires and Sexual Orientation and seek ways to publicize my Sexual Orientation so all will see that is what I AM all about. I promise, if I have any time left during the day when I am not thinking about sex I might try a bit of duty to God and my Country and to obey the Scout Law; Unless of course it interferes with my life of sexual fantasy that takes up most of my waking hours because that IS what I AM all about ….. and to help other people at all
    times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight, if all that reaffirms in my mind my sexual desires and fantasies so I can always feel myself. Oh, I mean fell good about myself. Amen

    • Anonymous

      Julius Cesar? Geez, no wonder why Rome fell.

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  • Caroline

    Sincere question: If the supposed wrong of homosexual sex is that it is non-procreative, why not the same disgust toward those who use contraception as toward those who have gay sex?

    • Objectivetruth

      Good question. They are in a way, similar sins of lust. Possibly contraceptive sex between two heterosexuals is at least on the surface an attempt at the proper natural order of what God wanted for the sexual act. The act of sodomy however is such an affront to what is intended for the sexual organs (let alone the rectum) that it brings more of a visceral reaction. But make no mistake: both contraception and sodomy are grave and immortal sins against God’s plan.

      • Scott Waddell

        Exactly. Certainly much of the blame for our current onslaught of normalizing depravity can be laid at the feet of society’s general acceptance of contraception. Paul VI predicted more infidelity and moral decline, loss of respect for women, abuse of power (like many governmental and NGO de-population efforts), and making “My body, my rules!” an absolute to the point of absurdity. But you are right, heterosexual offenses against chastity while grave, are at least directed to the correct order.

    • Lars

      There really is no difference except that some find it very stimulating to think about the mechanics of homosexual sex. If non-procreative sex is the problem, it is necessary for Catholics (and others who agree) to support a ban on any Scout master who has had a vasectomy or uses any sort of contraception. As this doesn’t happen, we can assume the ban on homosexual leaders is about bigotry and not principle.

      • Objectivetruth

        straw man, and a false syllogism. Gay men should not be camping with 13 year old boys they are not related to any more than a straight man should go camping with 13 year old girls he’s not related to.

      • Scott Waddell

        I would entirely support my Catholic-based BSA troop to support a ban on Scout masters who’ve had vesectomies or use contraception in addition to ones indulging ANY offense against chastity be it heterosexual (which means any sexual contact outside a true marriage) or homosexual (which is any sexual act with persons of the same sex). It is unfortunate that it has come to this, but the agreement a Scoutmaster has to sign needs to have rather explicit examples of scandalous immoral behavior that can get him ejected.

    • Austin Ruse

      The wrong of homosexuaity is not that it is not procreative. That is a definition of marriage. the wrong of homosexuaity is that it is disordered and unnatural. We are largely a live and let live society, except when a certain group wants to impose itself on the rest of us. That has what has riled such a reaction against the homosexual movement.

  • spitfire1938

    It does appear the BSA has been infiltrated by ‘communists’ and ‘Homosexuals’; not unlike the infiltration of the Catholic Church in the 1950′ and 60’s… extent!

    If that is true, ‘both’ are virulently deadly viruses that will kill their host… and that “IS” the intent!

  • Michael Ryan

    A little interesting science from a lapsed but sympathetic Catholic. Biologists are pretty sure homosexuality is a virus; likely prenatal, because it could not be selected for evolutionarily it could not reproduce.yes I agree there is a difference between being born with an “orientation” and acting on it.Certainly we used to have a constitution guaranteeing free association and freedom of conscience.One of the things that infuriated me about the Catholic sex abuse scandal was the ability of the press to not only ignore that this was no worse in catholic organizations than secular or other religions. But that they pretended it was a pedophilia issue and not a homosexual issue.Pedophilia is an orientation towards PREpubescent children. 90% of the victims were post pubescent. Meaning the priesthood had been invested with homosexual men and those men compared to the hetero sexual priests could not keep it in there pants.If we are honest we must admit we are biologically attracted to youth and the age of consent varies by culture. But attraction is one thing violating the laws the vows and the social taboo on consent is quite another.It is a well known fact that homosexuals throughout history have considered themselves above these strictures. How did these men get through seminary is the scandal.

  • Boy Scouting must deal with two questions: How much more of a risk to impressionable minds is open homosexuality than closeted homosexuality? And, Does it make sense to stand firm on this issue if that means Scouting will then exist in the margins of American life?

  • Bill


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  • scotland

    just a moment please …all this jibberjabber about… human being taking his selfish sexual recreation in the sewer system of another human being…did I get that right?

  • Eric

    The BSA should prove a point to the liberals by allowing all homosexuals immediately… with no intention of carrying on as the “BSA”. All members and leaders at that point should leave the BSA and begin a new Christian organization and let all the sodomy loving liberals have the title “BSA” (along with the embarrassment). Eventually the said liberals will attack and DEMAND to join the new organization and the cycle will repeat itself… And the libs will grow more infuriated as they chase each next renewed organization through time (but it would be amusing to watch). The BSA need to stand their ground but they may need to play as dirty as the libs and scrap the name.

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  • BPHistorian

    are so wrong. And out of line, The BSA meeting resolution was voted on only by
    the registered 1400 plus council delegates… The meeting over the 4 days
    always has had over 3-4,000 members attend for a variety of other meetings…
    The entire process was thoughtful, prudent and exceptionally well balances…
    ALL SIDES had equal presentation time and everyone was very considerate of
    opposing concerns… There is an incredible bonding among scouts and leaders,
    and has been for 100 years. You couldn’t have had a more open, unbiased,
    truthful approach. The BSA DIDNOT USE Push-Pull- they used a very independent
    outside firm to drive the survey’s and use high level of sociological
    statistical agnostic scientific base; as well as outside 3rd party firms to
    conduct the full spectrum of events.

    There WERE LOTS OF PRESENTATIONS, discussions, and freedom to declare all sides
    of this issue, unlike your biased statement;”

    “You can be sure in that meeting there will be no presentation from
    supporters of the current policy, and you can be sure the Executive committee
    will continue to spin their deceptive tale about how most of Scouting is fine
    with open homosexuality in the program”.

    It is intensive pornographic for you to hide behind “your truth’ of your
    statements since you have absolutely no basis of any fact of- what would, or
    did take place…

    the other comments below” BP was not a repressed Homosexual” this was
    recently documented an s scientific fact against Jeal’s statements, and. THE
    BSA FOUNDERS were NEVER SHOWN TO be “against the members who might be
    a homosexual.

    Do the deep research and you will find this out.

    See Below, the last line;
    this is verbatim of what BP wrote:

  • BPHistorian

    Baden Powell’s exact words;see the last line.
    After reading and studying this man for over 15 years, with more access to his archives, writings, documents, than any other person in the world, Baden- Powell did not judge a man for what God made him; rather how he acted.
    4. A Scout is a friend to all, and a brother to every other scout,
    no matter to what social class the other belongs. Thus if a scout meets another
    scout, even though a stranger to him, he must speak to him, and help him in any
    way that he can, either to carry out the duty he is then doing, or by giving
    him food, or, as far as possible, anything that he may be in want of. A scout
    must never be a SNOB. A snob is one who looks down upon another because he is
    poorer, or who is poor and resents another because he is rich. A scout accepts the other man as he finds him, and makes the best of him.

  • In most European countries this would not have been an explicit issue at all, except perhaps by some boyscout organizations run by certain sects.