Indiana’s RFRA Controversy: The Sexual Revolution’s Next Stage

What if I told you that a new law labeled as anti-gay by the New York Times and CNN was going to take effect soon. What if I also told you that Apple CEO Tim Cook compares it to Jim Crow laws, that Connecticut’s Governor has issued an executive order banning state-paid travel to Indiana because of it and that NCAA has threatened to move future events from the state all together. You would think it must be an outright crazy law, right?

But what if I also told you that this law has nothing to do with gay people, or that the words “gay,” “lesbian” and “sexual orientation” in fact don’t appear in this law or any of the other Religious Freedom Restoration Acts. And what if I told you that no RFRA has ever been used successfully to defend anti-gay discrimination in 20 years.

I wouldn’t blame you for being confused. So what is going on here? This outrage must be understood in the context of the Sexual Revolution. A revolution is defined as a “forcible overthrow of a social order in favor of a new system” and destroying religious liberty is a necessary step for a revolution that favors adult sexual desires above all.

Since the middle of the twentieth century almost everything marriage once brought together has been split apart to accommodate for these sexual desires, the ultimate goal for Sexual Revolutionaries:

1.  Sex has been divorced from children.

The invention and proliferation of the contraceptive pill in the 1950s and 1960s made it possible to spread the lie that sex could be conducted for pleasure alone, without any unwanted consequences—like babies. As described by Saint John Paul II in Evangelium Vitae, the danger with contraception is how it puts personal fulfillment at the center of life’s meaning and fosters a self-centered concept of freedom, a freedom divorced from truth.

Freedom is not the ability to do whatever you want to do, but to do what one ought to do. This is the difference between a freedom that will make you a slave under your sins or a freedom that will set you free through discipline and self-mastery. When pretending that sex is sterile we are no longer living according to the truth of the human person, and that puts us on a path to self-destruction. The fact that about 60 million children have been aborted since 1973 should be evidence enough.

2.  Sex has been divorced from love.

In his book Three to Get Married, Fulton Sheen makes the following distinction: “In sex the male adores the female. In love the man and woman together adore God. Sex seeks the part; love the totality.” In the hook-up-culture, ubiquitous on college campuses today, sex is seen as just another recreational activity with no deeper meaning. It essentially favors male sexual desires while leaving females feeling disconnected and jaded. This has led to more STDs and unintended pregnancies, increased sexual violence as well as introduced a range of emotional and psychological problems that become barriers to authentic love.

3.  Love has been divorced from commitment.

Love is not seen as an action, a promise and commitment anchored and sustained in the will. It’s rather based on a hedonistic mindset that sees love as an emotion, an intangible sentiment constructed in the mind and backed up by some butterflies in the stomach and physical attraction. With the introduction of “no-fault” divorce in the late 1970s and early 1980s, couples could split up for any reason, like “falling out of love,” or no reason at all. This legislative policy is erroneously based on the idea that marriage is primarily about adult romance.

4.  Marriage has been divorced from children.

Almost half of all “first babies” in the U.S. are now being born to unwed mothers. For Millennials, out-of-wedlock childbirth is the norm. With more cohabitation comes less family stability, which in turn creates more single parents. Single parent families are more prone to poverty and children who grow up without their fathers are much more likely to use drugs, commit crimes, become teen parents and spend time in jail. With the introduction of same-sex “marriage” the idea of marriage as a union with unique and distinct procreative features is effectively being abolished.

5.  Children have been divorced from sex.

The inverse of contraception and abortion is children as entitlements. With reproductive technologies and practices such as egg and sperm donation, IVF and surrogacy, it is no longer sex that makes babies but doctors and fertility agencies. Parenthood today is becoming a commercial enterprise, not determined by the biological union that created the child, but rather legally assigned according to adult intentions and desires.

As marriage is redefined and as beliefs about human sexuality continue to change, will the right to dissent be protected? Don’t count on it. For the Sexual Revolutionaries the revolution is not over, and after dismantling marriage, with the help of the Supreme Court that most likely will determine same-sex “marriage” to be a constitutional right this summer, religious liberty is next.

As President Obama, continues to reassure us that “same-sex marriage poses no threat to religious liberty,” photographers, bakers and florists are being sued for declining to provide services to same-sex ceremonies in violation of their religious beliefs. And losing.

This brings us back to the RFRA law in Indiana. What this law de facto does, is establish a balancing test for courts to apply in religious liberty cases. No side automatically gets a victory. Therefore the law can and should be seen as a shield, not a sword. But the Sexual Revolutionaries are now turning it into a sword by rallying and advancing their troops. For them “religious liberty” is a contradiction in terms and they will use every opportunity they can to label, penalize and punish anyone who disagrees with their view on sexuality.

In light of this, we have two questions we need to be able to answer. First, we need to be able to answer the question “What is marriage?”

To echo the words of Ryan T Anderson, co-author of What is Marriage: Man and Woman: A Defense, marriage has always existed to unite a man and a woman as husband and wife to be mother and father to any children that their union might produce. It’s based on the anthropological truth that men and women are distinct and complementary. It’s based on the biological fact that reproduction requires a male and female. It’s based on the sociological reality that children deserve a mother and a father and do best when raised by their biological parents.

For Catholics, marriage has also been elevated to a sacrament making it a theological truth. Marriage is a covenant, a sign of Christ’s love for his bride, the Church. The grace of the Holy Spirit empowers us to give ourselves to each other the way Christ gives himself to the Church—freely, faithfully, fruitfully and totally. With Lent coming to an end, we are once more reminded of what that self-sacrifice looks like.

The second question we must face is even tougher. Just as Thomas More did when he was executed for standing up against Henry VIII’s personal view on sexual morality, are we also ready to leave fear behind and proudly stand up for our faith, even if the price might be persecution and martyrdom?

Rickard Newman

By

Rickard Newman is a convert, Swedish ex-pat, father of two and the current Director of Family Life for the Diocese of Lake Charles, Louisiana.

  • Scott W.

    You might want to make a quick correction in the beginning: “What if I told you that a new law labeled as anti-gay by the New York Times and CNN was going to take affect soon.”

    Should be “effect”.

  • Ciarán Ó Coigligh

    Rickard Newman’s article is extremely helpful to all who are attempting to defend the true nature of marriage throughout the world. Thank you very much indeed.

  • Objectivetruth

    It’s interesting how Apple CEO Tim Cook has to attack a law protecting religous freedom, saying that “gay” rights are a civil rights issue. Yet he employs 100,000 Chinese workers at basically slave wages to manufacture his overpriced technology. How he checks his moralizing at the door of states such as Saudi Arabia whom he sells hundreds of millions of dollars of products to and if you’re “gay” in that country, you can be stoned to death. I have to chuckle when watching the news, you see ISIS members on their iPhones.

    And the other companies feigning indignation over this law are laughable. One of the biggest demographics with the most disposable income are the “gay” community. These companies could care less about “gay” issues. They just want their money.

    Hypocracy, thy name is Tim Cook.

    • JP

      Cook is also planning to open 2 Apple Stores in Iran. His WSJ rant rings hallow. Here’s a gay CEO willing to do business with a country that stones homosexuals; but, he saves his vitriol for American Christians who just want to be left alone.

      To paraphrase Lenin, “You may not be interested in the Revolution. But the Revolution is interested in you.”

    • Steve Frank

      Which all goes to show that for people like Tim Cook what he wrote had nothing to do with principle and everything to do with grandstanding his “tolerance” before his fellow liberals. It’s clear that for the Left, one’s position on same sex marriage has become THE litmus test for determining whether you are a “tolerant” person. What’s even more enraging is that this leftist crowd has been spitting all over the institution of marriage for a couple of generations now. But now that marriage has become a “gay” issue, they act like matrimony is just the greatest and most important right in the world now. Sheer hypocrisy.

      • Objectivetruth

        And interestingly, given the earthly, secular right and law for a “gay” couple to “marry”, very few do. SCOTUS will make SSM the law of the land this June, but the next day you won’t see long lines of discriminated “gay” couples lining outside the courthouse looking to get hitched.

        Because for sodomites, this was never about the right to marry. It’s a desperate attempt to try to get the other 97% of the population to give some type of approval to their immorality.

      • Mickey’O

        For the gays, the key item re: marriage, is TAXES. Since the tax rate on married couples is lower than singles, that is the wedge they use to force SSM on us all. Unequal treatment, don’t you know?
        CURE: Eliminate the different tax rates based on marriage status and have every tax payer file individually at today’s single rates. That, and eliminating any deductions or exemptions for children, will shut down the SSM and designer baby industries today.

        • How about admitting that in the century that we’ve had the income tax, it has been an unmitigated disaster and scrap it?

    • Tim Cook is busy developing a defensive brand, because he’s no Steve Jobs and he has no revolution in the works. When the day comes that the Board realizes he’s just not Steve, he needs a way to say there’s a reason he’s not in the game-like Mr. Sam, it won’t be a lack of talent, it’ll be the handy dandy all purpose excuse “discrimination”.

  • Samuel63

    Very nice article! Thanks!

  • Keith Cameron

    Secularists in the West have done well to enshrine the abomination as they have sullied the sanctified. We can blame only ourselves for going along with it.

  • BillinJax

    The Obama administration, with precision guidance from Valerie Garrett and forty years of preparation by the progressive liberal press, has indeed “fundamentally transformed” our nations culture. Thank you’s go to the (former) democrat party and George Soros.

  • Objectivetruth

    “The second question we must face is even tougher. Just as Thomas More did when he was executed for standing up against Henry VIII’s personal view on sexual morality, are we also ready to leave fear behind and proudly stand up for our faith, even if the price might be persecution and martyrdom?”

    Excellent point, Rickard. Time for Catholics to stand up for the Truths of Christ. Time for martyrdom.

  • GG

    This rebellion against a just law is evidence of the tyranny that is growing in this society. Perversion is now the norm. Goodness is seen as the enemy. It is quite a sickness.

    • Objectivetruth

      And satan is laughing with delight.

      Satan’s goal is to make people think evil is good, and good is evil. The Father of lies is succeeding in our society. Sodomy mocks the marriage embrace, mocking the family and the Trinity. This is all purely and simply the work of the evil one.

      • GG

        It is one of the most demonic activities for sure. To expose children to this evil nonsense is a real crime.

        • Objectivetruth

          My children, wife and I enjoy watching the show “Wheel of Fortune.” Traditionally, an innocent and wholesome enough show. In last night’s show at the end, the winning contestant’s (who was “gay”) “boyfriend” ran on stage giving him a big hug and kiss. The host even commented saying “Oh….who’s this?” To which the “gay” contestant gleefully responded “my boyfriend!” My young children saw this whole display and looked at me with confused looks, looking for an explanation.

          The filth and perversion of the 21st century citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah knows no bounds.

          • Your kids will have Gay friends. Too bad you don’t.

            • Objectivetruth

              I have been blessed with plenty of homosexually oriented friends, Chuck. Many quietly members of “Courage.” They realized living in the teachings and love of Christ is better than living in the depressingly sinful “gay” lifestyle.

              How about you, Chuck? Why such vehement opposition to Jesus Christ? Someone once commented to you that if you’re living the gay utopian dream lifestyle, why are you spending so much of your waking hours on a website meant for devout Catholics?

              • Asmondius

                Hoping for someone here to crack and admit that they wax their bathtub.

            • GG

              They will have drug using friends and porn watching friends and tax cheating friends and wife swapping friends and violence loving friends and all types of friends. Does that mean they should affirm all that or claim it is all good?

              • Objectivetruth

                Amen……

            • Asmondius

              At a chance of 98 to 2 – not bloody likely, under normal circumstances..
              .
              Always – always – focused on the kids.

            • How do you know who we count among friends or acquaintances? I’ll bet the average poster (you know, “breeders”), has greater familiarity with SSA afflicted people than you and your buds have with observant Christians.

              I’m really looking forward to the day when we have polygamist friends, zoophile friends, then we can really tell ourselves we’re “inclusive” and “diverse” – when we’re having Cody and his “wives” over for dinner.

          • Speaking of Pat Sajak (who is a noted conservative, by the way), he had an interesting moment with another Gay contestant on “Wheel of Fortune” last year:
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/27/pat-sajak-gay-contestant_n_5536751.html

  • “What if I also told you that this law has nothing to do with gay people, or that the words “gay,” “lesbian” and “sexual orientation” in fact don’t appear in this law or any of the other Religious Freedom Restoration Acts?”

    It doesn’t matter if those words are specifically mentioned. We KNOW what these bill are designed to do. Social and religious conservatives are so furious over the fact that they have virtually lost their battle to keep Gay couples from marrying, that they are now taking their revenge.

    What if I told YOU that these bills don’t simply allow anti-Gay discrimination by Christian bakeries, florists, and photographers, but ANY business that wants to turn away Gay couples?

    • Objectivetruth

      Speaking of the demonic……not ironically appearing on cue…..

    • GG

      That would depend on the circumstances of the case.

    • FrankW

      You would do well to remember that it was the homosexuals who filed the lawsuits against the florists and bakers and other business owners, instead of just searching for another business that would meet their “needs”. Should I sue a deli owner who refuses to serve me a Cuban sandwich because he’s Jewish or Muslim (instead of finding a deli meets my needs)? According to your logic, the answer is ‘yes’. You say “We KNOW what these bills are designed to do”? You’ve already been told what these bills are designed to do by those who wrote them, and it’s easier for you to accuse them of lying than to do work of investigating the law to see if it actually has merit.

      You can’t have it both ways. You can’t blame these business owners for standing up for their religious beliefs, and then turn around and blame them for discriminating against homosexuals BECAUSE they are standing up for their religious beliefs. The only logic behind that reasoning is the same logic my daughter used (when she was much younger) when she accused me of ‘hating’ her because I wouldn’t let her eat gummy bears for supper instead of her vegetables.

      • Frank, a Jewish deli is no more obligated to serve you a Cuban sandwich than a Mexican restaurant is obligated to serve you sushi. Businesses are perfectly within their rights to decide what products they serve, how they expect their customers to dress, etc., as long as all customers are treated equally.

        • FrankW

          According to your own logic, that deli owner who objects to serving pork BECAUSE it violates his religious beliefs is guilty of discrimination.

          • Frank, he is not discriminating. He has the right to set his own menu, and he is expected to treat all law-abiding customers equally. On the other hand, if he said, “I’ll sell Hebrew National Beef Salami to everyone but Muslims,” that WOULD be discrimination.

            • Ford Oxaal

              Yeah, no. The owner has no way of knowing what a person is. However the owner does know what kind of behavior and display goes on in his shop. If he finds something objectionable, he has every right to exercise free discrimination, and he knows it, as do all American business owners. Sorry, but if someone finds a gay marriage or secret order of the poobah seance to be objectionable, they have every right to point them to the exit.

        • GG

          Not all items are equal and they should not be treated equally as a matter of justice. A man who demands a cake to be used at the KKK rally is not equal to a mother wanting a cake to celebrate her son’s birthday. Not equal at all, nor should the law force the baker to provide a cake for deviant purposes.

    • Seamrog

      “Social and religious conservatives are so furious over the fact that they have virtually lost their battle to keep Gay couples from marrying, that they are now taking their revenge.”

      This is an invented lie you created to suit advance the normalization of your personal sins. It is typical behavior from you. Lies and distortions.

      We have laws that prevent pedophiles from living near schools. Let that soak in for a little while, Chuck.

      • “We have laws that prevent pedophiles from living near schools.”

        As well we should. How is that relevant to this topic? Child molestation is a criminal act. By July same-sex marriage will be legal in the entire United States. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

        • GG

          Both are deviant desires.

        • Seamrog

          Nope. They are one and the same at their fundamental level.

          Very few people are willing to admit that, but it is truth.

          You know truth Chuck – you are just willing to distort it, ignore it, twist it, and pervert it to suit your particular sexual whims.

          • Objectivetruth

            The narcissism amongst the “gay” community is a lustful obsession with the beauty of youth. They don’t pursue a fifty year old man for their perversions, but have predatory designs on the fourteen year old boy.

        • Ruth Rocker

          I fully expect the other sicko sexual addicts in society to start coming out of the woodwork now that the homomafia has been so successful in its assault on normalcy. Who’s to say that the adult and his child victim don’t “love” each other or that multiple person marriages don’t constitute “love” since that seems to be the key word in all of this. Not natural law, not biology, not common sense – they “love” each other and everything that stands in the way of their warped desires has to be blown out of the water in the name of tolerance. Of course, for the left, tolerance only pertains to their own views. They are anything BUT tolerant to anyone voicing anything except the straight party line!!

          • GG

            That is the way vice works.

    • jcsmitty

      Then if you told me that, I would call you a liar.

    • JP

      Gays are the aggressors; not the other way around. Churches are not suing gays in order to prevent them from marrying. But, gays are targeting Christian businessmen in order to force them to participate, however indirectly, in their abominations. The Indiana Law is a reaction to what occurred in New Mexico. New Mexico, by the way, also has an RFRA Law. But their courts ruled that the religious scruples of the Christian florist didn’t apply.

    • Ford Oxaal

      Who has the right in a free society to compel a photographer or any business or person to participate in a public display he finds objectionable, whether Catholic Mass, barnyard porn show, or gay marriage? You are joking, right?

  • Scott W.

    Back in 2000, the movie Chocolate was set in a remote French village during the 1960’s. Reviewer James Bowman pointed out that had to be set in a remote village in the past because that was the only place left on earth where there was still a societal stigma against out-of-wedlock childbearing and refusing to go to church. In other words, the sexual revolution was utterly triumphant.

    But that’s not enough is it? Of course not because evil and lust are never satisfied, so the champions of the sexual revolution have to cast about for enemies, making the up out of whole cloth if they have to (remember the waitress and her phony note on the receipt?) It was not enough for the pervertarians to win. Everyone must be coerced into confessing that they were right to win. It won’t salve their conciences of course, so they are on a path that demands the destruction of anything with a whiff of wholesomeness and chastity.

  • lifeknight

    Thank you for the article! The progressives in our Church will wallow in the same sex ceremonies “coming to a parish near you soon.” To make the abomination of sodomy (and other pereversions) normalized is the plan.

    • Well if it will make you feel any better, churches will never been forced to provide services to Gay couples against their will. Muslim and Atheist and Jewish couples are allowed to marry, and churches have never been compelled to hold weddings for them. And if you find YOUR church moving in a direction that makes you uncomfortable, find a new church. I’m sure there will be no shortage of churches that maintain their disdain for LGBT people.

      • lifeknight

        Your “disdain” is showing.

      • JP

        Not so fast. The real issue isn’t whether the Church will be compelled to marry gays; that isn’t how these things are done. The point is whether the State can interfere in the private actions and management of its own affairs. Most recently, the Supreme Court, in the Tabor ruling, issued a 9-0 opinion which that the EEOC cannot compel to abide by certain Labor regulations in its hiring and firing practices. That is, a Church can fire an employee that fails to meet its moral standards. However, in Canada, there are federal hate speech laws. And currently a priest, Alphonse de Valk, is under indictment for Hate Speech. His crime? Teaching and preaching the Catholic faith as it pertains to sexual morality. Several cases like this exist throughout the UK.

        Additionally, the EU is contemplating whether private religious organizations are in violation of Human Rights for not performing religious ceremonies for LGBTs.

        They momentum rests with the Administrative State. Through bureaucratic fiat, gays will eventually get their way. They won’t have to change laws or regulations. Europe is probably a decade ahead of us in that regard.

      • Chuck, your martyr complex is part of your narcissism.
        You want disdain? Try having a grand mal seizure in ninth grade Spanish class.

        • Objectivetruth

          Fulton Sheen has a great meditation on Pontius Pilate, and Pilate’s question “Quid est Veritas?” to the Christ. Pilate’s pride and cynicism was so great, he was blinded to the Truth standing right in front of him.

          The “gay” communities sinful pride and cynicism is so great, they can’t even recognize the Truth of Christ during Holy Week.

        • GG

          That is exactly right. The entire syndrome involves a persecution complex and narcissism. To quell the conscience they must constantly seek affirmation and stamp out all dissent. But, it can never be totally accomplished.

      • Asmondius

        Judaism or Islam is an equivalent of homosexuality?

      • fredx2

        First they came for the bakers, and I said nothing, because I wasn’t a baker.

      • TheWhiteLilyBlog

        Whoa! I don’t ‘detest’ gay people, LGBT people. I love them enough to warn them.

        • The Truth

          If you love someone you speak the truth.

      • The Truth

        It has nothing to do with “disdain” for homosexuals. It has to do with legitimizing “marriage” between homosexuals. Vast difference.

    • Objectivetruth

      It’s no coincidence that such incredible demonic activity happens during Holy Week. It’s a sobering reminder of how important the 3:00 hour this Good Friday is.

      • GG

        And where are the New Homophiles? Should they not be publicly defending this law?

        • Too late, Indiana’s politicians folded like a cheap suit. Now I wait for the usual suspects to tell us how Apple and Angie’s List exercised undue influence over government-but you won’t, because the ends justify the means.

          • The Truth

            Isn’t it ironic that Apple does business in countries that are devoid of any human rights.

    • Jacqueleen

      That is a short term goal…The real goal is to destroy the church which stands in the way of a New World Order….and a one world religion. When the churches get sued when they deny a marriage to same sex partners or polygamists or perverted bestiality (to follow), they will end up bankrupt and in a fallen state. God help us by removing the evil doers from high places and please foil all wicked plans plotted behind closed doors to harm your people and your Church. Thank you, Lord.

      • Objectivetruth

        Luckily the “gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it.”

  • FrankW

    Very well written, thank you for posting.

    The reaction to the Indiana law parallels the reaction to the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson Missouri: The facts be damned, full speed ahead with the agenda – except the agenda differs in this case.

    That picture says a thousand words for those who remember George Stephanopoulos prior to his career at ABC. He worked as President Bill Clinton’s press secretary during the time that Clinton signed the federal RFRA bill into law. Go figure.

    • “The reaction to the Indiana law parallels the reaction to the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson Missouri: The facts be damned, full speed ahead with the agenda – except the agenda differs in this case.”

      An excellent comparison. Journalism is a joke.

      As for Stephanopoulos, he’s a perfect example of the government media complex, and that the fourth estate is a fifth column.

      • Glenn M. Ricketts

        The script was in the can long before the event, so it’s not necessary to trouble yourself with specific facts. Look for, instance at the Matthew Shepherd murder. It was, of course grisly and the perpetrators deserved execution. BUT…….. it was not a “hate crime,” since Shepherd’s killers knew him, and one had actually been an occasional sex partner with him. In addition, Shepherd himself had been an active drug dealer and gay prostitute who was HIV positive as a result. He didn’t deserve what happened to him, but he was far, far from the innocent naif randomly targeted by homophobic rednecks, which was the “narrative” that kicked in immediately from the Hollywood/MSN/mainstream media phalanx, as they’re done here as well.

        • All crimes are “hate crimes”. It is an inane concept. Somebody kills me because I’m [insert protected class here] and its worse than if they kill me for my wallet. Genius, sheer genius.

          • Glenn M. Ricketts

            It also requires the ability to retroactively read the minds of perpetrators, doesn’t it? How else can you know that, aha, you were thinking anti-gay thoughts, and that’s why you did it. The fact of a murder alone is sufficient evidence or, at least, it used to be.

            • Michael Paterson-Seymour

              “The fact of a murder alone is sufficient evidence or, at least, it used to be.”

              No, according to all the institutional writers, “Murder is constituted by any wilful act causing the destruction of life, whether wickedly1 intended to kill, or displaying such wicked recklessness as to imply a disposition depraved enough to be regardless of consequences.”

              This goes back at least to the Roman law of the XII Tables of 450 BC – “Dolo sciens malo morti duuit.”

              One does not need to be a mind-reader to know someone’s intention. As Wittgenstein says, “What is the natural expression of an intention?—Look at a cat when it stalks a bird; or a beast when it wants to escape.”

              • Glenn M. Ricketts

                Thanks Michael, you’re right. There was and is a difference between “willful murder” and other forms of homicide, such as a “crime of passion.” But I think that “hate crimes” introduce a new and hopelessly subjective quantity into the mix that leaves too much arbitrary discretion in the hands of the authorities.

                • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                  Is it really applying a “hopelessly subjective” test to conclude, for eample, that the murders carried out by the Shankhill Butchers were inspired by sectarian bigotry?

                  Here was a group of men, all members of a Loyalist paramilitary organisation (the UVF), who between 1975 and 1982 engaged in a systematic campaign of slaughter against the Nationalist community.

                  The gang was notorious for kidnapping and murdering random Irish Catholic civilians with no known paramilitary links; each of whom was beaten ferociously and had his throat hacked with a butcher’s knife. Some were also tortured and attacked with a hatchet. The gang also killed two Protestants, mistaking them for Catholics.

                  The fact that they also killed a half-a-dozen Protestant for personal reasons does not obscure that fact.

                  • Glenn M. Ricketts

                    But why do we need to know their motives in order to punish them? Here in the United States, as perhaps you’ve sensed from reading this thread, “hate” is readily attributed to people who oppose same-sex marriage, abortion, etc., in general to the motives of anyone who takes issue with progressive opinion on a broad range of subjects. It seems to possess infinite, mischievous elasticity. I have no doubt that genuine hate motivated murders committed by the Ku Klux Klan back in the day, but I still wouldn’t need to factor that into the decision to prosecute and punish them.

                    • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                      See my reply to DE-173 below

                    • Glenn M. Ricketts

                      I see it Michael, and I think you’re still missing my point. Most “hate crimes” in the United States don’t involve murder, but wondrously vague thought offenses that apply to designated identity group categories, along racial or sexual lines. One brother may murder his sibling out of extreme malice – i.e., “hate” – but that isn’t a “hate crime.” But someone who publicly affirms the Church’s teaching on marriage may well be accused and sanctioned for anti-gay “hate.” For that matter, if one defines “hatred” as extreme ill will or malice toward someone or something, then it’s hard not to conclude that many homosexual activists ae indeed “hateful” toward their opponents. But in the current secular cultural/ideological regime, such people are by definition victims, and thus incapable of “hate.”

                  • The point is, their crime is the act they commit, not the thoughts that motivate it. We somehow think murder is more invidious if it’s the result of some bias-but if it is-that means murdering somebody in a robbery is less heinous. Ideas have consequences-and in this case they are absurd.

                    It’s part of the left’s belief that what motivates human criminality is a lack of proper ideological hygiene; that there is no such thing as sin, and they will rehabilitate humanity, that there is no need for a redeemer.

                    • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                      The reason crimes are investigated and prosecuted at the public expense is because of the degree of alarm and insecurity they produce and the threat they pose to public order.

                      Thus, the unlawful possession of explosives by an individual safe-cracker is a very different thing to their possession by a large organized group, intent on putting down the authority and government of the Queen in Northern Ireland by force and the sentences imposed reflect this.

                      I agree that motive is irrelevant to the gravity of a crime; intention is not. It is surely a great aggravation of a crime that its purpose, or likely consequence, is to provoke inter-communal violence.

                      That is not to say that motive may not properly be averred and proved as an article of probation; hence, the common averment in indictments “AND you did previously evince malice and ill-will against the said…”

          • The Truth

            Get the DVD “Hate Crimes” by Rev. Kennedy. Explains it all.

  • Charles Putter

    The House of Annas and Caiaphas, with all the Lawyers and Elders, is alive and well …………… ‘Tis truly Holy Week.

  • publiusnj

    American Christianity is divided into so many camps, some of which are even now becoming emboldened actually to support Gay Marriage (e.g., Episcopalians, Presbyterians and other of the “inclusive” Mainline denominations who would rather have some “metrosexual congregations” than entirely empty pews). Why is it, by the way, that denominations with rapidly declining adherent counts call themselves “inclusive”? Just asking….Politicians weigh off the balance of American Protestantism against those Mainline denominations and either discount them as offset by the Mainliners or as just too right wing to be taken seriously.

    More than a third of American Christians, though, are in the Senior Church, the one that has been around since Christ’s time. The American Branch of Catholicism, though, is riven by indecision and begs off any choice between parties because after all it is more aligned with the Democrats on Social Justice Issues. So, the politicians have come to realize that the USCCB will continue to dither, and that they can ignore Catholicism too. So they made the play for the Gay Lobby’s contributions and have had no reason to regret their historic swing (begun, btw, by that political genius, Joe Biden). Just to make sure Christianity is going to stay docile, the Left politicians will now go to “Defcon 2” any time Christian supporters like the Indiana legislature raise their head, even if only to echo a law so unremarkable that Bill Clinton was once its supporter.

    Clearly, Christians need a new strategy. One that relies on the old Christian Virtue of “Fortitude” more than on dithering.

    • BillinJax

      All of which brings us to offer our prayers for Christian Unity.

      It is so important that we pray for Christian Unity and so many of us do and it pains us to see the scattering of the sheep taking place today. But we must remember that the light of Truth must burn brightly in the Church of Christ and never allowed to run short of the oil of Holiness.
      We must come to realize that the just and final judgment of an individual’s soul is left to our Lord Jesus Christ at the appropriate time. However, Christ founded the church to bring these souls to the Truth in order that they can be saved when that judgment takes place. The duty of the Church, acting in concert with the Holy Spirit, is to teach the truth Christ brought to mankind that they may know and understand it and live their lives in union with the Church into which He shelters them. He told the apostles and disciples, the first of his Church, they would be guided by the Holy Spirit which would teach them all they needed to follow His Way to truth.

      This means the teaching authority of the Church is bound by its founder to vigorously promote and defend the truths which the Spirit imparts to it. That truth is on fire and the light of the world. This would necessarily include the obligation for the Church to openly admonish those within the people of God, the Church, who publicly participate in any efforts to extinguishing this flame or filtering its light through worldly concepts of misguided social justice. The most burdensome threat which the Church faces is not those directly opposed to its teaching that are not within “the people of God” but rather those within who scandalize the message and falsify or dilute its teachings.

      God Bless our efforts toward Christian Unity.

      • publiusnj

        Christian Unity, of course, is a desideratum we join with Christ in His Great prayer of Unity in hoping for. From the viewpoint of strategy, though, this is a bit like proposing that we close with the enemy by going in the opposite direction so that we can pass both Poles and sneak up on the enemy from behind. In truth, we need a more actionable strategy that might have an impact within the next few years. Christian Unity ain’t happening any time soon.

        • BillinJax

          Then, “in truth” our prayers could be answered as a result of the war on Christianity by the culture of Death and perversion along with Islamic terrorism which will ignite consideration for the “actionable strategy” we need for Christians of all denominations to unite for survival. God answers our prayers in ways we can never imagine. But only if were a fervent and constant with our petitions.
          God Bless.

          • publiusnj

            Nothing wrong with praying for Christian Unity, as I noted at the beginning of my first response to you; the Church has been doing it since Christ said His High Priestly Prayer. With God, though, a thousand years can be one day and vice-versa. So, heeding that other great wisdom–God helps those who help themselves–I am suggesting that we need leaders (or overseers, one might say) who will develop a strategy for protecting the flock in advance of the day when Unity is achieved.

    • Kim58

      And to help convince our local Archdiocese to stop dithering we have severely curtailed our contributions to the Church (both at the Archdiocesan level and local parish level) and redirected our funds to more closely help the poor and marginalized…i.e. we buy food to donate to a food pantry, clothes for the homeless shelter etc. Time to stop funding the relatively comfy lifestyles of the parish priests until such time as they get some courage and start speaking up on Sundays!

      • publiusnj

        I am very annoyed at the Church right now particularly regarding the Remarried Communion issue pushed forward by that poseur (and Francis electoral manager) Walter Kasper, but I don’t think the real problem is the “relatively comfy lifestyles of parish priests.” I thank God we still have any priests in this hateful society. I think it takes great courage to be a priest in this very hostile World. A lot more than it takes to be a lay person annoyed with the Church, at least speaking for myself.

  • ITomFlying

    Not everyone is destined to be a martyr. Some will be warriors. If the left continues to promote/act out violence against the faithful, then no one should be surprised if some day, the faithful defend themselves.

    • Jacqueleen

      Can’t prove that theory by me. As Rally Captain, I held a rally for the Definition of Marriage and granted I received approval to hold it at a busy intersection on town owned property the week of the Rally which gave me little time to promote it. However, I belong to several groups, know a lot of people, emailed about 150 people and promoted the rally in several churches for several weeks with the fact that the location may change and ONLY 12 Catholics showed up including myself. PEOPLE JUST DON’T CARE ENOUGH…..WHEN THERE IS NO MORE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AT ALL, THEY WILL SAY….”HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?” It happened because few PAID ATTENTION AND CARED ENOUGH TO BE A WARRIOR FOR CHRIST. DISGUSTED WITH THE WIMPS.

      • LarryCicero

        We have a priest who started a Holy Hour of Reparation, to conclude Adoration. We pray for those who don’t care.

        • Jacqueleen

          Thank you…The Angel’s Pardon Prayer is perfect. My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love You. I beg pardon for those who do not believe, do not adore, do not hope and do not love You. Amen.

      • former atheist

        Thank you GG and ObjectiveTruth for
        your insight which needs to be repeated:

        GG – This rebellion against a just law is evidence of the tyranny that is growing in this society. Perversion is now the norm. Goodness is seen as the enemy. It is quite a sickness. AND
        Objectivetruth – And satan is laughing with delight. Satan’s goal is to make people think evil is good, and good is evil. The Father of lies is succeeding in our society. Sodomy mocks the marriage embrace, mocking the family and the Trinity. This is all purely and simply the work of the evil one.

        It is increasingly evident that “western culture” has failed to heed the lessons of history and is condemning itself to repeating the same old
        mistakes (remember, rampant homosexuality was fashionable in ancient Greece and Rome before they “collapsed in a screaming heap.”) Our so-called “modern times” again promote an exceedingly selfish / self-indulgent culture – where the mindset of depravity has been “normalised” – and historians already warn that the world is ALREADY well on the way to becoming yet another “collective culture of death and SELF-destruction”.

        It is also interesting then that “gays” themselves expose their own immense HYPOCRISY and massive DECEIT about their (REAL) agenda – which is to DESTROY the sacred institution of (real) Marriage! … How? … Easy! …

        — by “TRIVIALISING the title of “Marriage” – with their insistence on their
        legally appropriating the “TITLE of Marriage” (which historically has ONLY ever belonged to a man and a woman in a public declaration of their love in the presence of God and before the community, and of their life-long commitment and fidelity in real Marriage and for the purpose of being responsible parents to off-spring).

        Most “gays” describe themselves as “non-believers” and are “particularly hostile to any idea of God” … therefore it is “gays’ themselves who
        relegate “gay” “marriage” to a distillation of satirical caricature of very bad
        taste.

        This is NOT “gay-bashing”. IT IS OUR RIGHT TO COMPLAIN against the willful malicious DESTRUCTION of our very culture. It is no less destructive than if “gays” had set fire to our Parliament.

        It is interesting to note that even though homosexual groups evidently “don’t see themselves as anything more than 1% of the population, and most saying that they are not even being remotely interested in marriage (because they “crave variety” in partnerships), a growing number of them now openly admit that what they actually REALLY want is “to turn western culture on its head altogether” by “normalising“ their lifestyle:

        How?

        1. “Being queer means PUSHING THE PARAMETERS of sex, sexuality, and family, and in the process transforming the very fabric of society…” – Paula Ettelbrick, (ex-legal director of Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund)

        2. “In the gay life, FIDELITY is almost IMpossible. Since part of the compulsion of homosexuality seems to be a craving on the part of the homophile to ‘absorb’ masculinity from his sexual partners, he must be constantly on the lookout for (new sex partners). Consequently the most successful homophile ‘marriages’ are those where there is an arrangement between the two and to have affairs on the side while
        maintaining the semblance of permanence’ in their living arrangement.” – Former Homosexual William Aaron (William Aaron, Straight (New York: Bantam Books, 1972)

        3. “Typical gay city inhabitants spend most of their adult lives in ‘transactional’ relationships, or short-term commitments of less than six months.” – research by University of Chicago Sociologist Edward Laumann (Adrian Brune, “City Gays Skip Long-term Relationships: Study Says”, Washington Blade – February 27, 2004)

        4. “Few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.” – Researcher M. Pollak (M. Pollak, “Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times”, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, translated by Anthony Forster, New York, NY: B. Blackwell, 1985)

        5. It is even more alarming to note that “gays” themselves further expose their (REAL) agenda:

        “…to get the public to affirm their lifestyle” … “to see government and society affirm our lives” – (United States Congressional Record, June 29, 1989).

        But most disturbing is that part of the homosexual agenda seems to be to
        alienate people from Christianity – which they perceive as “the enemy“:
        “The teaching that only male-female sexual activity within the bounds and
        constraints of marriage is the only acceptable form – should be reason enough for any homosexual to denounce the Christian religion” – (Advocate, 1985).

        So what is their “Trojan Horse” strategy?

        Easy! “DESENSITIZING the public“:
        “The first order of business is “desensitization of the American public concerning gays”…..To desensitize the public is to help it view
        homosexuality with INDIFFERENCE … Ideally, we would have “straights” register differences in sexual preferences the way they register different tastes for ice cream or sports games….At least – in the BEGINNING – we are seeking “public desensitization” … if only you can get them to think that it is just another thing…then your battle for [“equal rights”} is VIRTUALLY WON” – (“The Overhauling of Straight America.” Guide Magazine. November, 1987.)

        So the “gays” themselves – by their own admissions about their (REAL) agenda – put the whole matter in a very different perspective.

        Therefore It is so important for ALL civilized cultures to defend WITHOUT DELAY what is worth defending – the very future of families and the
        defence of civilised customs and traditions which are slowly, insidiously being undermined and destroyed – even by short-sighted, ill-informed governments who have mindlessly “rolled-out-the-red-carpet” to selfish malicious destroyers of civilised cultures.

        The family has been under serious malicious attack for decades and also now by a very spiteful and destructive minority who would have us believe that that they do not ALREADY have legal rights (eg inheritance, superannuation, etc.) under the ALREADY available “legal unions” available to any two people, regardless of sex.

        The law ALREADY provides for “gays to have existing advantages of the above legal avenues … BUT civilized cultures MUST NOT allow such irresponsible bullies to (FALSELY) appropriate the TITLE of “Marriage”.

        Responsible citizens, WHO VALUE THEIR FREEDOM OF SPEECH (and yes, there are already increasing steps being taken in several countries to make any criticism of “gays” a punishable crime. In fact in the USA a cake-decorator has been taken to court by a homosexual couple –
        and lost – upon declining to decorate the ‘wedding’ cake which included two “male figurines”).

        Even Peter Hitchens (convert to Christianity and brother of the
        late atheist Christopher Hitchens) has commented emphatically: “It is
        important to speak out NOW (about an increasingly morally corrupt society). I am speaking out now – while I am STILL ABLE TO!”

        Therefore it is the inescapable duty of all civilized curltures to take heed of the facts and to fight for values which are the truly admirable aspects of Christian culture and who do NOT want it reduced to such a noxious caricature.

        In a truly civilized society “There are things that cannot be modified. The family is one of them.” (Stefano Gabbana and Domenico Dolce
        of Dolce and Gabbana 03/16/2015). So here we even have two “gays” who openly and courageously DEFEND (real) Marriage. Recently in France, even “gays” did the same and were in the march DEFENDING Marriage. If they can see the dangers, how is it that so many others are so blind to the sinister agenda?

        • The behaviour of “homosexuals” boils down to nothing more than
        the “TYRANNY and OPPRESSION of a corrupted ‘political correctness.’

        The Catholic Church doesn’t NOT conform her doctrine to her followers’ expedient wishes. Rather the Church helps them conform THEIR lives to her doctrines – because her doctrines remain true. These doctrines are NOT the “relative” (supposedly “enlightened”) kind of truth – they are the absolute, incontrovertible Truth.

        It is time for the public in ALL civilised nations to take serious note of this (admitted) sinister agenda of the self-serving “culture-destroyers” which would terrify even George Orwell himself.

        • former atheist

          Corrections:
          – Word “curltures” … should read “cultures”
          – “The Catholic Church doesn’t NOT conform her
          doctrine …” … should read ““The Catholic Church does NOT conform her doctrine …”

          my apologies.

      • TheWhiteLilyBlog

        Thank you so much for your work on that rally! Really, thank you! And even if only 12 people showed up, you can’t know how much counter-influence all your emails and signs had. It’s very surprising, but as a life-long organizer, I have seen the effect of small beginnings. The thing is, people are really scared. It’s easy to have nightmares about jackbooted thugs. Our pro-life group came close to attack downtown a couple of years ago, only a marine in the crowd put himself between us and a group of thugs, thank heaven. But, we will not be able to live here very shortly. Either apostatize, or first be disappropriated and then maybe martyred. Just like England in the 1600’s. We will have priests hiding in the walls again. It’s finally arrived on this shore, that thought with its ‘religious liberty’ bs the problem would go away. And that’s because we gave up on the Restoration!

        • Jacqueleen

          Intimidation is one of the gays tools to move forward….Fear is a result of intimidation….thus, WIMPS. We are the Church Militant…not the church of WIMPS. Biblical Wars with fewer soldiers than the enemy, won the battle when they pursued Our Lord to lead the battle…..that results in TRUST! How much do the wimps know of their faith? 00000

          • Glenn M. Ricketts

            Onward, Christians soldiers.

            • Jacqueleen

              Yes, Sir….indeed!

      • Marc L

        God Bless you for your witness. However, I would note that what you are reading as mere apathy is more likely a combination of both that and actual fear. Behold the backlash to this law. Look up Brendan Eich. Look at the Fortune 500 amici SCOTUS briefs in support of creating a “right” to gay “marriage” at the federal level. People are now and have been for a long while now, in fear for their livelihoods over their views on traditional marriage and sexual ethics.

        • Jacqueleen

          Does not God provide for all our needs? The opposite of fear is trust…..so very lacking in the so-called Catholics of today. In truth, there are very few real Catholics in the world…not the billion + that is statistically advertised. Perhaps that is why Sr. Lucia has told St.Pope John Paul II that many, many souls will be lost!!!! The father of fear is the devil!

          • The Truth

            Jacqueleen is correct. Fear comes from Satan. But the fear is real. It takes courage to step out of the boat and trust in God. “Do not fear the world for I have overcome it”. Being it is Good Friday it is appropriate that we realize that without the Cross there is no Glory. No crucifixion no Resurrection. Of course that is easily said at my computer, not so easily said outside in a world that is becoming more and more antagonistic towards Christians. The irony of that is a lot them are so-called Christians in the church itself!

  • s;vbkr0boc,klos;

    “Learning that his wife had been conducting a passionate affair with Vita Sackville-West (to the enraged jealousy of Vita’s other lover, Virginia Woolf), Roy Campbell began to see the three aspects of the new elite—sexual inversion, anti-patriotism, and progressive politics—as aspects of a single frame of mind. These three qualities amounted, for Campbell, to a refusal to grow up. The new elite, in Campbell’s opinion, lived as bloodless parasites on their social inferiors and moral betters.” -Roger Scruton

  • Veritas

    “It essentially favors male sexual desires while leaving females feeling disconnected and jaded.”

    If you talk to high school and college kids often, they tell you that the girls/women instigate sexual activity quite openly and aggressively. Seriously, then we needed to protect our daughters; today we need to protect our sons. How does this fact jibe with the statement about females feeling disconnected and jaded?

    • The number of female on male cases of school house sexual abuse is astounding. In my small media market, there’s been at least a half dozen known cases over the past couple of years.

      • Veritas

        DE, even though I wasn’t referring to abuse, you are totally correct in the increase in sexual abuse committed by women against boys.

        • Glenn M. Ricketts

          But the boys are the ones who are continually admonished to keep their hands off.

          • Kilo 4/11

            Revenge of the double standard.

            • Glenn M. Ricketts

              Eh? What “double standard” would that be?

              • Kilo 4/11

                Glenn, the old double standard was girls had to be good while boys could sow wild oats. So, its “revenge” is when, today, boys must be good, while girls can do the things mentioned above and get away with them. Capisce?

                • Glenn M. Ricketts

                  I don’t remember it quite that way. We may have expected boys to misbehave, but we did not condone it. It fell to the girls to assist in taming them, and thus maintain proper moral standards. In my own experience it was laid on pretty heavy not to “do it” until one was married, and that meant not pressuring the girls when they said “no.” I don’t mind discussing this with you , but leave out the sarcasm, eh?

                  • Kilo 4/11

                    Yeah, I got that message laid on, too; I just remember the girls seemed to get it much more heavily than we did – which BTW, I think was a good thing. I did not intend sarcasm but I apologize anyway, since you felt it.

                    • Glenn M. Ricketts

                      No worries, I shouldn’t be so techy. Thanks, I appreciate the charity. I do remember being astounded 50 years ago in our high school co-ed sex education session – this was a public high school, so they did such things – when the question of pre-marital sex came up. Most of us squirmed a bit, but several of the girls – the “nice” girls, I should add – declared that, while they expected to be virgins when they married, they hoped that their husbands had “been around” just a bit. As one of them put, “i don’t want to spend my honeymoon with some clown who doesn’t know what he’s doing.” Well I certainly was one such until I was married. But that discussion left me in a state of perplexed uncertainty about what was expected of me.

    • JA

      It makes sense if the female, missing a strong father, is trying to find love, mistaking sex for love. It is a mistake of immaturity but it is cyclical. Girl tries to prove to herself she is lovable because her father was absent or self absorbed or too immature himself to give his children what they really need. Girl easily finds male who will certainly give her sex maybe even say “I love you”.. Girl then realizes this isn’t love but she has compromised her self-respect. Boys seem to have no problem with multiple partners, indeed they make it look as though they are having a lot of fun. Girl attempts to imitate what she sees as “fun” in an attempt to bury the self-contempt. In a moment of truth, she will admit to being disconnected and jaded while a moment later, she will continue to pursue “love”-in all the wrong places.

      • Veritas

        Good explanation. Superficially, it seems more like “Girls Gone Wild” in a drunken or sober orgy of sexual license. While i wholeheartedly agree with your analysis, I still think that many of the teen to college age women simply think that sex is recreational. As a high school teacher and father, I have heard stories from many a student and my children about the rampant things the girls do to boys, such as exposing body parts, groping the boys and orally copulating them in an instant. Females telling me about other females who’ve “cashiered their v-cards”, etc.

        The fundamental facts of the matter are as you describe them, but there seems to be a large number of girls who are acting out sexually, and by extension they must be victims of a missing daddy.

    • Glenn M. Ricketts

      Have you seen this piece of feminist triumphalism by Hanna Rosin a couple of years back?

      http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/09/boys-on-the-side/309062/

      She exults in the female sexual aggression that she sees everywhere: the girls have taken charge. At the same time, there’s a rape epidemic every on college campuses that makes Bosnia look like Sunday school kids. It all makes sense, right?

  • WRBaker

    The medical community has a place in all this too. Remember that the “shrinks” voted by a show of hands to change homosexuality from a psychological abnormality in the mid-70s, without any research to back up the vote.
    Then we have the medical community taking away the rights of parents by telling them that their children have reproductive rights and parents have nothing to say about it. They also seem to have missed a day or two of medical school when they discussed male-female, X-Y chromosomes, etc.
    Then we have the politicians who, in their desire to be loved, will proclaim whatever the prevailing (and ever so brilliant) media says is the right way to think.
    Then we have the bishops who, in their desire to lead their flock to what is right and just, say…nothing.

  • mn_catholic

    While I am not a big fan at all of the way these things are going, I think screaming “martyrdom” is a bit overblown. There may be some uncomfortable situations ahead, and it may end up that there are certain professions where Catholics can’t reasonably enter into without expecting a choice between moral issues and legal ones. In many ways this has already been the case for a long time; Catholic OB-GYN’s and pharmacists have had to wrestle with many medical systems requiring the prescribing of birth control for many years. I highly doubt any church will ever be required to bless any marriages they don’t consider legitimate; the Catholic Church has refused to marry divorced people for a long time and there has been no effort to force her to do so. My guess is that the gay “marriage” movement will eventually reach an uneasy detente with religion just as all of the other sexual revolution movements have. This detente will likely be a bit stifling for orthodox Catholics and other conservative Christians, but it will be a far cry from outright persecution and martyrdom. Ross Douthat writes more about this topic here: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/06/on-persecution/

    • Objectivetruth

      Sounds like 1936 Nazi Germany.

      “No…..the Nazis will never go as far as to round up six million Jews and gas and incinerate them! That can’t happen!”

      • GG

        I always ask these types of posters when we should start to worry. I never get an answer.

        • mn_catholic

          We should have begun to worry 50 years ago when Griswold v. Connecticut forced the legalization of birth control. Gay marriage is simply the next link in the logical chain. Certainly we should continue fighting the religious liberty battle, but to suggest that outright persecution (with the images of priests being rounded up a la Communist China) is overblown.

          • GG

            Persecution is not only death camps. It has begun. It involves fines, prison, public schools teaching perversion, and much more. How much more obvious does it need to be? I think denying there is a persecution is dishonest.

            • mn_catholic

              Did you read the link to Ross Douthat that I posted? Discrimination and persecution are two different things.

              • GG

                I distinction with no difference. If you are forced to bake a cake for sodomy affirmation that is persecution. If your children are indoctrinated into “gay” ideology that is persecution. If you cannot speak the truth because you fear for your job or safety that is persecution. We are under persecution right this minute and it will increase fast.

          • Objectivetruth

            We’re under a current persecution that calls for “white” martyrdom. History has shown that white martyrdom leads to “red” martyrdom, the shedding of blood.

      • mn_catholic

        So you are suggesting that our government will start setting up concentration camps for Catholics and other “undesirables” who oppose the sexual revolution? There is a very big difference between a few isolated cases of bakers losing lawsuits (which are no difference from birth control lawsuits faced by healthcare workers for years) and out-and-out persecution. Certainly the possibility exists that some type of more extreme persecution will spring up in the future but I would judge that possibility as very remote.

        • Objectivetruth

          From Martin Niemoller:

          “First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
          Because I was not a Socialist.

          Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
          Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

          Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
          Because I was not a Jew.

          Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.”

          • mn_catholic

            So just to get you on the record: you are actually saying that you anticipate our government rounding up Catholics into camps and ultimately killing them over disagreements about gay marriage?

            • Objectivetruth

              I was making an analogy to the progressive, step by step persecution of 1930’s Germany that led to the Holocaust in the 1940’s. Allow persecution now, it could lead to greater persecution later. History has shown this.

              I’m guessing you’re a supporter of “gay marriage? ”

              Let me ask you this: 25 years ago, would you have ever thought it possible in this country that the state would sanction “marriage” between two men or create laws forcing Catholic businesses to pay for contraception? I’ll guess if someone told you this in 1990 that this would happen you’d probably call them crazy.

              In 1950 if someone told your parents that someday there’d be state sanctioned murdering of babies in the womb your parents would probably have said they were crazy.

              Small steps of persecution, heading towards God knows what In this country.

              • Ford Oxaal

                It’s all so boorishly predictable.

            • Seamrog

              I have absolutely no doubt that Catholics who remain faithful to Christ will be persecuted by government at all levels (local, state and federal).

              I think more than a few bishops will cave to the pressure and give legitimacy to the persecutions.

              Our current justice system punishes offences by the taking of property and liberty. It will be no different when the rejection of sin is criminalized.

              Steps are already being taken to control the internet and the content on the internet. Every comment posted on this forum in condemnation of sin will be used against the poster.

              I know I am not the only poster who believes that he / she is commenting at their future peril – but it is the judgement that comes after death that is important.

            • cestusdei

              How about this: they are already claiming that teaching children that homosexuality is wrong is child abuse. Ergo would it not be okay to take that child away from his parents? A teacher doesn’t want to teach he kindergarten class about lesbianism and therefore is denied a teaching license. A counselor cannot tell a client that his attraction to men is good and so is denied a license. A business man is told he must serve homosexual weddings or go out of business. Death of a thousand cuts.

              • GG

                All persecution. The deniers will keep denying.

          • reddog44

            Niemoller was a Lutheran pastor who realized too late that we must stop injustice immediedly or face imminent persecution. Yes, they will come for us, the only remaining question is when?

        • craig

          I don’t expect concentration camps, but something more akin to what the English Recusants faced, namely official banishment from public institutions. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_law_(British) for a taste.

          Of course, modern lawmakers will not openly ban ‘popery’, but effect the banishment by means of violation of any one of a thousand nitpicky requirements. (Said requirements will be established not in statute law, but in regulatory rules crafted by anonymous bureaucrats within the executive branch agencies — for examples, think ‘Operation Choke Point’, ‘Title IX’, or how IRS, EPA, and ATF operate.)

          • “Of course, modern lawmakers will not openly ban ‘popery’, but effect the banishment by means of violation of any one of a thousand nitpicky requirements. (Said requirements will be established not in statute law, but in regulatory rules crafted by anonymous bureaucrats within the executive branch agencies — for examples, think ‘Operation Choke Point’, ‘Title IX’, or how IRS, EPA, and ATF operate.)”

            And this is the danger of the metastatic administrative superstate so many Catholics tolerate, endorse, worship and participate in.

            • craig

              DE-173, it calls to mind the old boast that capitalists would sell the Communists the rope with which the Communists would hang them. Open worship of the state, or near-worship, by modern Catholics (esp. those in mitres) is a severe hurdle for me to overcome in accepting the Church.

    • GG

      The persecution has already begun. To deny that seems quite silly.

    • Asmondius

      The force is not being applied directly by government per se, but by homosexuals using the legal system in an attempt to to punish dissenters.

    • Guest

      First…this is not the same Guest as the comments above. But read what I posted higher above. The time is already here. The Catholic Church is viewed as the last domino by many of the left who want to bend the Catholic Church to their will. Communion and re-marriage for the divorced and providing the Sacrament of Marriage to the Gay couples is already on the burner and they will not stop until they are allowed to enter. As far as Orthodox and Conservative Catholics go this is not a true position. Either you follow the teachings of the Catholic Church or you do not. You can tell by how people vote and behave as to whether they do or do not follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. I only wish the USCCB’s would be more outspoken!

  • Guest

    I am very much concerned that once this battle is done the next will be at the Door of our Catholic Churches. They will feel empowered to demand the Sacrament of Marriage as their Right!! There are many other places of worship they can choose, but the Catholic Church is viewed as the last bastion of obstruction to their total wants. They are attacking the few truly Catholic Schools, Universities and Hospitals left. Where is the USCCB? If they are not going to take a stand now; when? At one time I thought it insane to entertain many of these thoughts, but now I am no longer shocked at some of the things I see. How long until they are dragging our Tabernacles out into the street for destruction?

    • Catholic Churches will always be free to do as they wish. None of the legal benefits and protections of marriage come from the church anyway, they come from government. And couples do not need church approval to get a marriage license. That’s all that really matters.

      • craig

        That’s complete Bee Ess. As soon as the ink is dry on the SSM rulings, the left will begin agitating to eliminate tax-exempt nonprofit status for groups that refuse to grant spousal benefits to SSM couples, refuse to hire persons with SSM spouses for jobs where the faith is taught (e.g. parochial school teachers), or refuse to host SSM rites. Further steps will ensue once nonprofit status has been eliminated and the churches are then legally secular ‘businesses’, but I’ll leave it as an exercise for the reader to guess what form those will take.

      • Guest

        They are past agitating about legal benefits. I already know some who are looking to knock down what they see as the last domino. As the Church is a tax exempt entity they will use this as their entry into demanding the Sacrament of Marriage or the loss of the tax-exempt status. They feel it is their right to be married where they want, when they want and by who they want and that includes a Catholic Church. Re-read what I wrote…I was referring to the Sacrament of Marriage, not the legal document provided by the State. I remain mystified as to why they insist on receiving a blessing from the Roman Catholic Church; an entity they hold in complete and utter contempt!

      • Hey Chuck, you realize that nobody takes your assurances seriously, right.

        Even if you were sincere, you are just a buck private in your army and have no insight (let alone influence or authority) over the generals.

        The left traffics in lies-it is just what they do. If you like your Church, you can keep your Church.

  • Scott W.

    I’ve had one person tell me in the same breath that persecution was right-wing paranoia, but if persecution happened, we deserved it. In other words, he was saying I’m all in favor of persecution, but it’s not in the Overton window quite yet, so I’m not ready to say so yet.

  • somebigguy

    The forces of chaos are fast advancing; yesterday, Arkansas came under attack.

    As a Kansan, I’m certain my state is next. Just weeks ago, our legislature and governor brought into law the same defense of religious freedom. But the very small and very vocal coalition of atheist-relativists here is chomping at the bit, encouraged by the dissembling and demagoguery now overwhelming Indiana and Arkansas.

  • Cool mick

    Tim Carney has a good piece at the Washington Examiner

    “Religious liberty is the terms of surrender the Right is requesting in the culture war. It is conservative America saying to the cultural and political elites, you have your gay marriage, your no-fault divorce, your obscene music and television, your indoctrinating public schools and your abortion-on-demand. May we please be allowed to not participate in these?

    But no. Tolerance isn’t the goal. Religious conservatives must atone for their heretical views with acts of contrition: Bake me a cake, photograph my wedding, pay for my abortion and my contraception.”

    • Objectivetruth

      A conservative radio talk show host said it this way: “in America, you’re free to be you, and I’m free to be free of you! I have the freedom in this country to not be forced to participate in your personal lifestyle.”

  • Elat

    Very well written.

  • CadaveraVeroInnumero

    How can we be assured the LGBTIQQ,BD/SM,CAA/AAC stormtroopers will *not* be banging on church doors demanded “systemic” change in doctrine and practice – with assist from their 5th column brethren?

    Assure us. And, as someone else noted, where are the New Homophiles in this ginned-up crisis in Indiana? Why their silence?

    Where to begin in the (near martyrdom) defense o9f our homes and communities? By calling Christian leadership to account – at all levels. First, by insisting that they squeeze homosexuality (and the insidious effects of Queer Theory) from their ranks. Not only the acts – but the tacit acceptance of it under deformed, disordered guises of mercy (and so on).

    It is so fashionable to be homosexual these days. So cool. Every 11 year-old is now racking his thoughts and feelings, for the slightest tinge ad tweak of “gayness”, praying he’s not left out. Why shouldn’t he, since every sector of his young life (his school, the music he listens to, the TV/cable shows he watches, the YouTube channels he pops onto, he porn he slinks off to) tells him that the big juicy LGBT apple is tasty indeed.

    We don’t give a damn., If we did every father of every 11 year-old would be manning the ramparts defending home and city from the too fashionable sex-barbarians.

    The LGBT horde will not be satisfied until they are washing your family bedsheets.

    [From the BANKRUPT Diocese of Stockton, the Mother Lode]

  • Ford Oxaal

    1. Can one publicly and legally protest gay marriage?
    2. Can one publicly and legally boycott any perceived disagreeable display, whether a gay marriage or a Catholic Mass?

    The answer is YES, in a free society. All such activity “discriminates”, therefore discrimination is not here the issue.

    While discrimination cannot be practiced to attack what one is, can it not otherwise be practiced against ANY public display?

    As a photographer, commercial or otherwise, who in a free society should compel me to participate or witness a gay marriage?

  • Watosh

    Excellent point that marriage is a commitment. This certainly has been lost sight of today.

    But these protests against the recent enactment of Indiana’s RFRA law is very, very telling. It is the handwriting on the wall. The secular forces now are in complete control. They now have the media at their command, and can have learned how to stampede the citizens. We rely on the Constitution to protect our religious freedom, but today the Constitution is treated as merely a quaint set of rules that can be violated with impunity.

    When Rome was ruled by the dictator Augustus Caesar, many Roman citizens were not aware that they lived under a dictator, but thought they were still living under the Republic, as the Roman Senate still met, and Roman Senators still discussed issues there,

    We still believe we live in a democracy because we have the ability to vote, never mind our choices have been restricted to say the likes of a Hillary Clinton or a Jeb Bush, or a Mitt Romney or an Obama, all of whom are sponsored by the big money corporations and the financial establishment.

  • littleeif

    We have had fun being undercover Catholics all these years! We have been able to have our tight Catholic families, our Sacraments, our little Parish events, our quiet schools, our own Catholic culture. Then we have been able to go out into the work world and be just like everyone else. We blended in well, thank you very much. And if the conversation veered toward birth control, divorce, adultery, finally even abortion and homosexuality, we could dance around like angels on the head of a pin without getting pinned down.

    We are being called out into the market places and town squares with our holy books and artifacts. We will have to declare. Are we Catholic? Soon I think we will have to openly deny our faith to fit in, perhaps to work or keep our assets. (I am thinking of St. Thomas More, here, once the richest man in the realm who lost everything.)

    As it turns out, being Catholic is being radical. Guess what? It always was.

    • Objectivetruth

      Good points. We should actually rejoice! We are being called in this time and place in history to live out our baptismal promise: to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ!

      • Sam Weatherford

        Indeed! We have been born for this fight by the Grace of God to live in this moment in time! Behind who’s banner shall we choose to stand!

        https://youtu.be/GgBdF18t9OY

        • TedForti

          Amen and Amen! Truly inspirational, thank you Sam. May we have the courage to stand and not shrink from the battle. May you have a blessed and joyous Easter.

        • The Truth

          That was very impressive.

    • The Truth

      It was easy being a follower of Christ until being a follower of Christ didn’t involve persecution. Those days are going fast.

  • s;vbkr0boc,klos;

    One little detail has always spooked me. That lesbian pair in Oregon who used the law to viciously destroyed the bakery for not ‘celebrating’ their ‘wedding’ had been customers for years and very friendly with the baker!. The baker was very apologetic about not being able to do the ‘wedding’. Years of friendly interactions and they feel righteously compelled to DESTROY this person because they were ‘hurt’. These are inhuman freaks, monsters, well outside the pall.of normal human interaction. Narcissistic horrors.

    • Objectivetruth

      We have to fall back on (and take great comfort in) the fact of our faith is the Kingdom we are striving for is not of this world. One has to wonder do those of the LGBTQ community have any thought or desire for the after life?

      • CR89

        “By their fruits, you shall know them.” It would seem they do not, in answer to your question.

  • Mike W

    The sad fact is people think they are being “inclusive” and that this is just the next step in acceptance of all the diversity of human kind without even bothering to look at the consequences. There is a difference between acceptance and enabling. While the untruth that homosexuals are born that way; that it is just the way they are, dominates the truth that the problems associated with homosexuality can be solved by preventing people from
    becoming homosexual in the first place will simply not gain traction. While the scientific studies based on the opinions of lesbians are taken on face value by the courts while objective, scientifically verified studies with vastly larger databases are ignored as being simply “homophobic” then there is a huge problem to overcome. While people think that the concept of marriage will do for homosexual relationships what it does for heterosexual ones and not look at the evidence we will never have the proper respect for the fundamental biological processes and instincts that enable us to exist and prosper.

  • Utah Rose

    What gets me is the hypocrisy of big companies who are against this law. Apple for example does business with Islamic states that murder homosexuals and lesbians. Walmart, a supposedly “family centered store” has a store in China, a country with no human rights. Apple has slave workers there making IPHONES who work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, yet they’re okay with that! The minority is stifling the majority of our country and we need to speak up. I haven’t heard one bishop or a certain Cardinal defend this law let alone few of our Senators, although I understand that both Senator Cruz and Senator Rubio are defending it. Our Church had better speak up. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if the IRS withdraws tax exemptions for Churches refusing gay weddings. And this law would have protected the Little Sisters of the Poor, Catholic Charities et al from submitting to the new health plan. We should be ashamed our voices are silenced. I for one will stop buying anything from Walmart or Apple Products. It will be a sacrifice worth taking.

  • thebigdog

    It will be interesting to see how the Catholics who have supported the homosexual agenda will react when the gaystapo demand that priests be arrested for hate crimes when they refuse to perform gay weddings.

    • The Truth

      They may be arrested for stating homosexual acts are sinful, the thought police are out in force.

  • hombre111

    Persecution and martyrdom? Oh, please. A dramatic drum-roll. The author did a good job of summing up the moral dilemma: sex divorced from children, sex divorced from love, love divorced from commitment, marriage divorced from children, children divorced from sex. But the root causes? A moral crisis is obvious, but Pope Benedict, in his “Called to Communion,” identified the larger milieu in which this crisis festers: Individualism. And it seems to me that the Catholic Right hardly dares address this problem.

    • Objectivetruth

      Yea, but you’re gay and obviously biased.

      • Kilo 4/11

        hombre is gay?

    • GG

      The individualism is called the dictatorship of relativism supported by the Left.

      • hombre111

        True enough. But it is also called an almost religious belief in predatory capitalism and the inability to serve the common good, supported by the right.

        • GG

          Capitalism is not my god. Gay ideology is not my god. Relativism masquerading as truth is not my god.

  • Major914

    If a person were to look around and consider the scene in this nation today, one would have to wonder how this country ever became a pre-dominantly Christian nation at all…

    I really believe Christians are going to have to rediscover the fact that the best defense is a good offense…

    An over-reliance on Democratic give-and-take leads inexorably to far too much taking by those least suited to guide the nation, and far too much ‘giving’ by those most suited–Christians…

    • Kilo 4/11

      This is the number one problem Christians face who want to be effective in the public square: how to be tough while still conforming to the second of Jesus’ Great Commandments.

      • Major914

        Part, perhaps the largest part of the problem, is understanding the Commandment properly.

        Telling a homosexual she is OK the way she is, is hatred–lack of love. Telling a homosexual they must repent or face eternal damnation is love….

        • Kilo 4/11

          I know, but I’m talking about effective public counter action, not just one-on-one talk. We need to take up public space, as in large demonstrations, like the French did with a half-million pro-traditional family people in downtown Paris; take out full page ads in places gays congregate… best defense is a good offense, as you rightly say; we just don’t know how to do it.

  • A note of support from Canada. I fully support Indiana’s religious freedom act. In my view, we need to see this type of legislation across North America, in an effort to make it legal and easy for conscientious Christians and others of good will, to publicly identify and denounce what is immoral and evil. Governor Pence is in my prayers. Cheers.

  • GW

    Ugh. Mr. Newman, what if I told you that there was a law that was being written that, although it didn’t have the word “Catholic” in it, could be used (and apparently would be used) to deny Catholics service at companies around town, based on the whim of the business owner. The governor and legislature swear that it’s not the truth and that the law wasn’t intended for that purpose, but you’re not sure if they’re lying or if they’re simply too incompetent to write a law that accomplished its goal without the side effect (intended or not) of exposing Catholics to the possibility of discrimination.

    Now, what if you were listening to the governor make his speech about “how the law is being misrepresented,” and you notice that several of his supporters gathered around him were winking at each other and snickering.

    How would you feel? You know that many of the evangelical Christians who are gathered around the governor have a history of slandering the Catholic Church. They’ve talked among themselves about the “Papists” bowing to a Roman dictator, and that Catholics can’t do anything much except have a ton of kids and go to church all the time.

    How would you feel, Mr. Newman? Want me to go on?

    • GW

      And I would respectfully suggest that you keep in mind Pope Francis’ words about the Catholic Church falling “like a house of cards unless it is able to focus more on the essentials of preaching the Gospel and less on politics and bureaucracy.”

      • Carl

        GW, your argument just completed a full circle rendering it completely pointless. Well, except for proving Mr Newman right. The Cathlolic/Protestant divide that you use is a great point. I’m sure any Catholic who was planning a wedding and had a Protestant refuse to participate went somewhere else instead of suing and forcing participation. Get it now??
        And I’m sure there are homosexuals who own bricklaying, carpentry, and electrical businesses who refuse help build/support Churches and buildings. OK, we’ll go somewhere else, you loose!

        And if Catholics can’t have a voice, like RFRA, we will assuredly fall like a house of cards!

        Now I’ll share God’s word:
        Gen 19 God destroys Sodom for its homosexual perversions
        Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a man, they shall be put to death for their abominable deed
        Rom 1:26-27 females exchanges natural relation for unnatural…Males did shameful things wit males…

        Can I get an Amen?

        • GW

          Carl, you and I live in America, and in America, we do not discriminate. This controversy is all about the governor and legislature of my home state of Indiana, attempting to score cheap political points with their base of voters (talk about pointless) by writing a discriminatory law against a convenient set of scapegoats.
          Of course, we’re all free to choose who we do business with (oops, unless we’re in Indiana and we’re LGBT). Unfortunately, for the purposes of public policy, we cannot codify discrimination into our statutes.
          And the last thing I’m going to do is to play dueling Bible quotes with you. Spend some time reading about the US government and perhaps a little less time finding passages in the Bible that support your opinions. Because, after all, you’re ignoring the passages that contradict your pious proclamations.

          • GG

            Cheap political points are when pols and judges support gay ideology.

            • GW

              …or when incompetent pols try to write laws that justify their (and our) bigotry.

              • Carl

                Your bigoted by forcing others to participant into your lifestyle. I’m not forcing you into a monogamous heterosexual lifestyle or events celebrating this lifestyle. Why are you forcing me??

                • GW

                  Carl, this controversy is not over “forcing” anyone to do anything.

                  This is America, and we do not discriminate in public facilities or in businesses that serve the public. And you should be thankful. When I was a kid, it was not uncommon for Catholics to experience discrimination or other forms of abuse.

                  Think about what you wrote, and see the hateful rhetoric that’s been posted by others on this thread. You’ve taken my words and assumed that I’m in favor of forcing you into a homosexual lifestyle.

                  I’m a native Hoosier, and I know my people. If there were a business that was “targeted for a lawsuit by gay activists,” it would be like hitting the lottery for that business owner. The population of the state is 80% Christian, conservatively, and when the lawsuit became public knowledge, there would be a flood of new customers and/or contributions to a legal defense fund.

                  The law was not necessary; it was incompetently written, and the controversy surrounding the governor was well-deserved.

                  • Carl

                    Tell that to, “Crystal O’Connor, the co-owner of Memories Pizza, Walkteron, Ind. were she said she would serve a gay or non-Christian couple at the restaurant, but would not cater a same-sex couples wedding.
                    Their business was then inundated with attacks from the far left homosexual Nazis. These example are replete and are growing nationwide.

                    • GW

                      “far left homosexual Nazis.” No thanks, I’m not playing.

                    • Carl

                      You’re not “playing” the Christian “ideology” either, then why are you on a Catholic website?

                      The few times I tried conversing on pro-homosexual websites I’m either kicked off or treated with vitriol.

                      Not so here, and every time an internet piece takes up the homosexuality issue supporters swarm like locusts trying to overwhelm the conversation.

                    • GW

                      I’m on this website because I read the original essay and felt compelled to make a statement that Mr Newman was engaging in the worst kind of political opportunism and spin.

                      I’m on this website because too often, the writers of Crisis Magazine appeal to the worst of human character, casting their opponents as not just “wrong,” or as Catholics and Americans with whom they disagree, but as evil people, bent on the destruction of America and ultimately satanic. This enables people to propagate hateful rhetoric like “the gay agenda,” “far left homosexual Nazi’s, and “gay ideology.”

                      I feel strongly about this and I’m willing to endure the hateful rhetoric, the personal insults, the threats of eternal damnation. It’s often very disturbing to me, but I persist because I feel that people who write for and post comments to Catholic web sites should behave as Catholics and keep in mind one of Pope Francis’ missions: for the Church to be merciful and to focus on people and not on sex.

                      I’ve responded to you with honest thoughts. I’ve not attacked you or insulted you. Are you going to pay me the same respect? Your next post will give me the answer.

                    • GG

                      It is plain you refuse to see the gravity of the situation. You have imbibed the worst of popular relativism and nihilism.

                    • GW

                      There’s my answer.

                    • Carl

                      Name one Christian organization trying to shut down a homosexual owned and operated small business?! Meanwhile homosexual supporters are doing exactly that across the nation.

                      So who’s propagating hateful rhetoric?

                    • GG

                      That is the point.

                    • Carl

                      Unsubstantiated false accusations and name calling by GW who claims to be above it all:
                      incompetent, snickering, winking, second-class citizens, make lives hell, litany of horrors, opportunists, spin, worst kind of human character, satanic, hateful…..
                      Did I miss any?

                    • GW

                      No thanks, I’m not playing

                    • Carl

                      Your words…….Then take your ball and go home already!

                    • GG

                      The truth is not wanted by the relativists.

                  • GG

                    You must live in some other country.

                  • Kilo 4/11

                    I was alive and walking my neighborhood’s streets before the “civil rights” laws took hold and I’m still here. I can tell you we had a much better life then, for both black and white. I would gladly trade the forced non-discrimination we have to endure today for some of the anti-Catholic prejudice of old, and yes, for segregation, too. We have given up far too much in search of the equalitarian utopia. Far from being “thankful” that I don’t have to “endure” discrimination, I know that we were robbed of things far more precious – freedom of conscience, of association, of speech, of the right to be safe within our homes – than the value of what we “got” in return.

              • GG

                There is no bigotry in protecting authentic rights of moral people.

                Gay ideology has no rights.

                • GW

                  “Gay ideology.” No thanks, I’m not playing.

                  • Carl

                    And you have every right to not play with me, and I have every right NOT to materially support your lifestyle! (Play) Get it yet?

                    • GW

                      My lifestyle is that of an old heterosexual man. I know and care about a few homosexuals, even though I don’t understand same-sex attraction. What’s important to me is that I accept that they feel that way.

                      And I don’t know whether I’m talking to “GG” or “Carl,” but guys, keep this in mind: no thanks, I’m not playing. I didn’t begin this to engage in an exchange of insults.

                    • Carl

                      GW says, “What’s important to me is that I accept that they feel that way.”

                      Where do you draw a line in the acceptance of human behavior?? Rhetorical question, I’m making a point.

                      The championing of Nietzsche’s ideology, to overcome the slave morality that hinders the full development of man’s creative energies, has been a bane to society and mankind.

                    • GW

                      Nietzsche’s ideology and “far left homosexual Nazis?” No thanks, I’m not playing.

                    • GG

                      When you promote serious error you can expect replies that refute your erroneous position. That is not an insult. It is simply truth.

                  • GG

                    Nothing to play.

          • Carl

            GW says, “in America, we do not discriminate”:

            * wanting to silence other points of view is discrimination

            * forcing others to participate into something they don’t believe in is discrimination

            * Ignoring God’s word is discrimination

            “free to choose who we do business with”

            * NOT the point, in America I’m free to choose not to support killing babies, bigamy, polygamy, adultery, homosexuality, and so on.

            Example, I don’t patronize local strip clubs, refuse to cater events there, do contract work there of any kind, or any other material help. The difference here is that the club owners and girls who work there aren’t suing me, protesting my business, or forcing participation.

            Get it yet?

            • GW

              No one is silencing other points of view, the controversy is over an empty political gesture.
              “Forcing others” is the same argument used against desegregation.
              “Ignoring God’s word” and the rest of your litany of horrors? No thanks. I’m not playing.

        • Kilo 4/11

          I’ll give you an Amen, and a Halleluiah bonus, for fighting the good fight!

      • GG

        Cooperating with evil is the anti Gospel.

        • GW

          Of course…all those gays, they’re so evil. Let’s treat them very cruelly, since our Church says that they’re “intrinsically disordered.” Let’s find every way possible to make their lives hell, even if we forgo all of the principles on which our country (not to mention our Faith) is based upon. God will bless our homophobia in the end.

          • Carl

            hyperbole and hyperventilation, relax take deep breaths

            • GW

              No thanks, I’m not playing.

          • GG

            Ah, the usual gay propaganda. Save it for the credulous and facile.

          • Carl

            Romans 3:23

    • GG

      This is gay type logic. It is silly and reveals the shallowness of the gay reasoning we have to expect from the relativists.

      • GW

        Of course! You don’t like it, so it must be gay. Since the Church teaches that homosexuality is an “intrinsic disorder,” that allows us to treat them like second-class citizens. It isn’t what Jesus would do, but it makes us feel good, so let’s do it.

        • GG

          It is not individuals with same sex attraction going to confession and living out a life of sacrifice you speak of. No, it is this demonic gay ideology that inverts logic and makes evil into good.

          • GW

            “Demonic gay ideology.” No thanks, I’m not playing.

            • GG

              Nothing to play. Truth exists.

      • mitch64

        Gay type logic???LOL. Well if its so easy to refute, why don’t you do so instead of trying to insult him/her and dismiss him with a pat on the head? Why would this law stop at just…”The Gays” and not include others, including Catholics? There are deeply held religious beliefs against “papistry,” and “idol worhipers” (and if you don’t think that there are still people in Alabama and Georgian and Kentucky etc who feel like that you need to get off the highway some time and talk to the locals to see where time has frozen, like an Evil Queen’s curse, trapping people in 1950.) Er, though with your comments, you might be one of those people who have been cursed.

        • Carl

          Yes, but the difference being, Neil Young’s “southern man” is not suing, protesting, codifying and shaking down businesses into participation into their chosen lifestyles!!

          • mitch64

            That is still not an answer. I am asking you what would happen is “southern man,” refused to serve you simply for your faith? Maybe you would walk away, maybe you would be insulted, hopefully you wouldnt sue (as that is lose/lose except for the lawyer) but, something like that could happen with this law. Think about it if you were one of the few “Catholics,” in southern man’s town of souther baptists.

            • Carl

              NOT THE ISSUE. Stop Confounding. Even “southern man” didn’t try to force the north into slavery.

              • mitch64

                ???????

                • carl

                  The South wanted to succeed from the union and not bully, sue, and harass the North into accepting “slavery rights.”
                  Do you have the right to force a Kosher Store to sell you ham?
                  Are you going to force a Hindu store to sell you beef?

                  • mitch64

                    Carl,

                    Your interest in the heroics of the south for wanting to succeed and retain slavery is interesting (and telling)in and of itself.

                    I do not expect a Kosher store to sell ham…it is a product they don’t carry so they don’t sell it to “anyone,” not just to some people and to others they wont. The same for a Hindu store, its an item they don’t carry..so I would not expect them to sell it, i.e. they treat everyone the same way. Do you get it?

                    • Carl

                      You’re the one stereotyping southern states.
                      But Catholics don’t sell same sex marriage! So why are you forcing us into doing so??
                      A Catholic Baker will not display two men on a wedding cake, but you demand one. But buy as many cakes as you want as advertised!
                      A Catholic Photographer doesn’t advertise anything but Christian weddings, but you want a homosexual one. But buy as much Christian photography art as you want!!!
                      You still don’t get it…….

                    • mitch64

                      Carl,

                      “A Catholic Photographer doesn’t advertise anything but Christian weddings, but you want a homosexual one”

                      Carl, get out more..really..do..Once again there are a lot of homosexual Christians. “You still don’t get it” but I can’t tell if your playing it that way of if you really are.

                      Either way, its done, the law has been changed and the rest of the world just put the word out that this stuff does not fly anymore.

                    • Carl

                      R e a d m y w o r d s….

                      “A Catholic Photographer doesn’t advertise anything but Christian (by his definition) weddings, but you want a homosexual one.”
                      Then go somewhere else just like you wouldn’t expect a ham sandwich at a Kosher Supermarket…..Duhh
                      You still don’t get it……

                      And as far as your snide remarks, there’s plenty of so-called Catholics who support your views. So you don’t have to point out my poor grammar. The First Amendment is an individual’s right.

                    • mitch64

                      Carl, you STILL don’t get it. The Kosher market doesnt sell ham to *anyone* but if I have a business, I have to serve anyone who is pursuing a legal right. That doesn’t mean I have to like it. I have many customers I don’t particularly like, many of them sitting what you would call “Good Catholics,” but who are carrying on less then good Catholic virtues in their personal lives…(its surprising what people will tell you after a few drinks..) As a matter of fact one self righteous prig who sits around like Jesus and Mary come to her for advice, has made comments to others about our “lifestyle,” (but that doesnt stop her from darkening my doorstep when she needs a snoot with her boyfriend,) is having an affair, and threw a bday party for her little boy toy and her husband attended. I have no idea if he knows, he is in on it, whatever, and I don’t care to (from her buzzed ramblings I am sure he doesnt) but again, I have no right to decide on my own that I will not serve them.

                      That is life in our society.

                    • GG

                      What stuff? You mean being moral instead of being a slave to deviant desire ?

                    • mitch64

                      I dont know, ask the hillbillies who are free to legal their cousins in Indiana. I find that deviant (and pathetic) but if I had a biz in Indiana I would have to allow them billies in my place and serve them as I would anyone else. We live in a pluralistic society so you are free to sit in your wingback and say what you believe is “moral,” and “deviant,” but that doesnt mean anyone else, or the law agrees with you. So, because we live in a land of laws, you have to abide by them. Once again, I think incest is gross but apparently certain pols in Indiana think its oakdokey…so I would have to abide by their law. Doesnt mean I have to like it or marry my own cousin, but I live their so I have to deal.

            • Carl

              And my reception to perform a Pro-Family Parade in San Francisco’s Castro District??

              • mitch64

                Smoke and mirrors. I am not King, or should I say “Queen,” of the “Castro district,” so I don’t know. However, we are not talking “reception,” here we are talking “law,” so protecting the rights of the “Castro District,” leaders to say, “No,” would much the same as this law, which would protect your right to march but also allow you to take the jeers and jibes from the leather folk (I would guess this is a den of em or you wouldn’t have chosen it as an example.)

                So again, the difference is legal protections against discrimination vs. free speech. So, the baker that everyone uses in these scenarios are free to have a “Marriage One Man One Woman” sign in their window and it is up to me if I want to do business there. However, if I do they can’t say no.

                • Carl

                  You still don’t get it….
                  I would not force a homosexual to support a Catholic wedding.
                  I should not be forced to support a homosexual wedding.
                  It’s NOT about a ham sandwich.

                  And your stereotyping of “southern man” is equal to my stereotypical “Castro man.”

                  • GG

                    Exactly.

                  • mitch64

                    I didn’t say you stereotyped “Castro Man,” …nor did I stereotype “southern man.” I said that there are still pockets in the deep south and in other rural areas, where anti-Catholisism is still alive and well and if you were one of the few Catholics who lived there you would feel what it would be like to be looked on with suspicion. To say “no,” would be like me saying that a tourist on “Castro Street,” never saw a guy in butt less chaps.

            • GG

              Gives us a break. Catholics are concerned about their faith not promoting perverted acts as a right.

              • mitch64

                Ah….you have no answer, so you jump to the “pervert,” thing. That response made no sense. I am asking you what you would do if someone refused to offer you service as a Catholic. Now, you may not find being a Catholic as pervert, but there sure as hell are some deep south fundies who find “worshiping Mary,” and “idolatry,” to be very perverted. Laws like this would protect their rights. It just wasn’t created to protect “Traddie Catholics,” rights..all religious faiths. That is fine if you are okay with that but realize the implications the next time you pull up to a gas station with a Blessed Mother statue on your dashboard and you are not allowed service. Might be a bit different then.

                • GG

                  The law is not about Catholics. You want to make it that. If a person does not want to make a catholic cake so be it. That does not bother me at all.

                  You need to spin this because you want to defend the perversion that is gay rights. You fail to see how grave that ideology is to children and society.

                  • mitch64

                    So what is the law about? I thought it wasn’t an antigay law but a protection of religious freedom law. Isn’t that what Pence and the stunned Republicans leaders in Indiana claim? So, if it is indeed that, and you support that you must realize that in a pluralistic society there are different forms of religious faith practiced besides Catholic or even Christian. So if a old school Bible Belt faith had a problem with Catholics and felt that they were evil…(remember back in the day when that was the case) they wouldn’t have to serve them. Your’e okay with not getting a “Catholic Cake,’ (what is with the baked goods obsession on this topic) but what about getting refused service period because of your faith? I have a feeling that you would be the first person screaming “anti-Catholic,” if that happened. What about housing, getting fired because of it? It think that might bother you a bit.

                    I don’t need to spin anything as it is a logical extension of this law that a lot of supporters haven’t thought this out. Religious protections include all faiths and belief systems. Not just yours. Deeply held beliefs, including Christian, Jewish, Orthodox Jewish, Kabbalah, Scientology, Wicca, even Satanists. Yea, its a big world out there.

                    Your need to jump to perversion and gay rights and children, which we weren’t discussing, shows, a) what supporters of this “religious freedom,” law are really targeting b) your obsession with vilifying gays and all things gay and c) that you don’t have an answer to what I proposed.

                    But when even Alabama reconsiders something, and Pence and his team of dinos are backtracking and wiping the egg of their faces, you can see how ridiculous a law wrapped up in the icing of religious freedom but hiding a nasty filling against a certain group of people, is.

                    • GG

                      What is anti Gay? The law is about people not being forced to participate in things that contradict their conscience. That is not anti gay. That is pro protecting people of conscience.

                      You keep bringing up Catholics not being served, yet that is not the issue. The law is not about refusing service to persons based on their religion. It is about not forcing people to affirm deviancy.

                      If a so-called “gay” wants a drink they get a drink. If a “gay” or KKK member wants a cake to celebrate some weird thing they do not get it from people who want no part of it. Why is this hard to grasp?

                    • mitch64

                      No GG, that is your understanding of it, but as I have been trying to tell you in what, six posts..I’ve lost track…that the law protects business with deeply held religious beliefs from interference not just from the govt, but from customers. It says nothing about deviance, pro or con. So, lets say you rent an apartment in Anywhere U.S.A. and your landlord decides to not rent out to you or to kick you out of an apartment as their “deeply held religious beliefs,” do not allow them to rent out to a “Papist.” Or you get fired from your job, etc, etc, etc. Because, point I am trying to make…people think that we Catholics are “weird,” and do “weird things.” So the point I am trying to get through to you is…this is a law that can make things very chaotic in that anyone can say they have a deeply held faith based belief. Sure, it was created cynically by Pence and his group to appeal to people like yourself, you know, people who have an axe to grind because the world is moving away from your severely retro social conservative thinking, so that you DO think it only applies to “others,” (i.e. those deviant homos) and couldn’t come home to bite you or anyone else in the pants. So win for Pence there as the electorate is as dumb as he thought. And now that he has egg on his faith he can still count on that shrinking vote as he will now be a martyr to the “homo fascists” and the “left.”

                      Unfortunately for you, the law has already been amended and Alabama the back woods capital of the world didn’t get this through..Alabama…

                      Why is that hard to grasp?

                    • GG

                      Again, the issue is not about not renting to Catholics and you know it. It is about the homo mafi and folks like you who support it. Individuals have a right, state supported or not, to not be forced to cooperate with evil. You and your pals always compare unequal items as if they were equal. Christianity is not equal to love of sodomy. Get it?

                    • Kilo 4/11

                      You can’t even tell the difference between a Constitutionally protected right, i.e., the right to free exercise of religion, and a desire for societal approval. And you are calling us dumb?

                    • mitch64

                      So you voted for Pence and you buy his load of garbage? I’ll leave the definition of that up to you.

                      But you are a bit dense if you don’t see in the first part of my post I discussed how this law would not protect people from being fired for who they are, all the employer would have to do is to say its against their deep seated religious beliefs. Justice Scalia was the one who coined the phrase “chaos,” when he first ruled on upholding personal religious beliefs over the law.

                    • Kilo 4/11

                      Not as dense as you are if you think I’m falling for what you “discussed”. You mean baseless assertions and outright lies. You try to ignore the fact that you and your lib/rad crowd have powerful coercive government agencies on your side already, just itching to harass, hound and sue into bankruptcy any business owner who steps on a protected minority’s toe. Think we’ve never heard of the EEOC, the “Civil Rights” division of the Department of Injustice? Go try your arguments on tourists who have never seen a “gay” person bofore; I’m sure you can intimidate them.

            • Kilo 4/11

              You’re making progress! You’ve gone from the irrelevant, to the hypothetical, to the extraterrestrial! Good work!

          • Kilo 4/11

            The song’s excruciating tone of moral superiority has been known to cause violent punching of radio buttons, though.

        • GG

          Oh more gay propaganda. We get it. Gays reason by way of inversion. Truth is hate. Evil is love. Wrong is right. Got it.

          Do you honestly want people to think the law is about denying Catholics wedding cakes? Really?

          BTW, the gay logic always invludes comparing unequal items and treating them as equal and then drawing erroneous conclusions.

          • mitch64

            Once again, GG, I am talking about the deeper implications of this law. My big issue is not that a baker should have to bake for a gay marriage..I would personally never sue for such a thing and I would actually thank that person for being honest (though I feel stupid) and I would never return and give them my money. However, I believe in rule of law, and that claiming “religious objections,” is too open for abuse. As a matter of fact I agree with your “Saint” Justice Scalia (though he backtracks later when “Catholic,” is involved) in ” What principle of law or logic can be brought to bear to contradict a believer’s assertion that a particular act is ‘central’ to his personal faith?” Scalia feels that neutral laws must hold sway, or every religious objector becomes, , “a law unto himself.”

            So you are bit like our slippery, hefty Justice in that you would hold a law vital until it infringed on your particular religious view point. So its all fine and dandy for a Catholic business owner to fire a gay person who is still doing a good job, but it wouldn’t be if a Southern Baptist would fire you for being Catholic. Do you see how, as Scalia said in his judgment on the Peyote case, anyone can claim a religious belief but how are we going to know it that is actually central to their belief or if they are just using that as an excuse to not serve certain people or engage in illegal acts (such as smoking Peyote) So the bigger picture, (which you dont seem to be able to see, your vision is so clouded with the rainbow smoke of deviant homos) is that in a society such as ours, with so many faiths being practiced, and so many of those faiths interpreted by people within those faiths (look at the American Catholic church, you are in the minority in birth control and gay rights) that it would be chaos.

            I never said “truth,” is hate or “evil,” is love so I am not sure where you are picking that up. But that is how you answer everyone you disagree with on this forum, with a non answer.

            • Kilo 4/11

              “So its all fine and dandy for a Catholic business owner to fire a gay person who is still doing a good job…” This law has nothing to do with hiring/firing. No one needs an “excuse” to refuse to serve any one, not in America, for a little while longer, anyway. Chaos? To have to go to the baker down the block causes chaos? You’ve lived a sheltered life.

              • mitch64

                You live a sheltered life and you must not have run a business, if you don’t know that you need a VERY good reason to refuse a customer service.

                The law had everything to do with hiring and firing. Since Indiana, in its infinite wisdom, does not have protections for those types of things, and since this law as opposed to the federal law, allows protections between individuals, not just the government (the purpose of the original law) So yes someone could say they don’t want to keep that “homo” on, and could also refuse to rent, etc. THAT is the real reason there has been such a dust up about this. No one with a brain, right or left really gives a damn about cupcakes or wedding cakes or even pizzas, the real meat is what the law, (previous version) could allow. So if this was such a fine and dandy law why was it changed so quickly?

                • Kilo 4/11

                  You’re using an extremely limited definition of “serving”. Anyone who has a slightly wider view of the world than permitted by the gay agenda and the social justice warrior’s view can see that the trend of the gay agenda, and liberalism in general, is to make people like me serve that agenda. This is far far worse than merely serving a customer; it is, in fact, servitude, as in the dhimmitude forced upon non-moslems in moslem countries. But you probably know this, which is why you are so frantically attempting to refute every argument against your side. We must be kept in the dark a little while longer. your victory is so close….

        • Kilo 4/11

          “…trapping people in 1950. That’s not a trap, it’s a sweet daydream.

          • mitch64

            Nice of you to let me know your mind set. How do you think African Americans would feel about a good old trip back to 1950?

            • Kilo 4/11

              Well, you see – I wasn’t trying to hide it.

              Of those blacks who can remember back that far, probably a majority, if they were to be honest with themselves, would happily take that trip. As for today’s deracinated, hyper self-esteeming, incurably honky-hating slaves to impulse – to quote a spunky Southern gal who taught the expression to me – you would not believe the degree of f— I don’t give about what they “think”.

              • mitch64

                I can see that you are not trying to hide your ignorance. I’ll let your statement stand on its own. “slaves,”???

                As for the rest of us “gays,” and really the rest of the intelligent world you would not believe the degree of f—we don’t give about what Pence, and the rest of the hillbilly idiots hiding behind the bible and “scripture,” think. Its when they try to force their stupidity on us through law that we care. Because, things have not changed from the bad old days where wing nuts use “scripture,” to back up any kind their inbred bigotry and try to cloak it in God’s word..and ….as you again so masterfully proved, they are a bunch of scared morons whose days are over, and they and you just HATE it!

                • Kilo 4/11

                  “….really, really hurts.”

                  Can’t get your “mind” off your sex life long enough to write one paragraph, can ya?

                  Don’t worry your pretty lil’ head, though – us real men can deal with pain.

                  • mitch64

                    Real men just come out and say they are racist homophobes. They don’t have to hind behind the Church’s skirts, or the bible or scriptures, or come to a site where you will get no push back.

    • Kilo 4/11

      Your “right not to be discriminated against” is pure lib/radical/Alinsky subversion of our very real right to freedom of association. A “right” that forces a certain behavior or activity on another person is nothing more than a legalized form of tyranny.

    • Kilo 4/11

      @ Guest 8 days ago Nothing Catholics do that is based on their faith is a
      “whim”. There is a two thousand year record and countless writings
      that the world can look at to determine on what a Catholic will base his
      decisions. It is therefore possible simply to choose ahead of time a
      non-Catholic alternative for one’s services or business dealings, if one does
      not want to be confronted with beliefs that are at odds with one’s own. No
      Catholic will refuse aid to a person in need or in danger, no matter what his
      beliefs or sexual persuasion, but these discretionary activities that would
      require a Catholic to participate in and validate sinful practices, practices
      that are spelled out as violations of a Catholic’s conscience as clearly as
      non-violence is spelled out in the Quaker creed, which has been upheld as
      grounds for conscienscious objector status regarding military service, must
      and easily can go elsewhere.

      Re: the ability to write a law that accomplished its goal without the side
      effect of alleged discrimination: in today’s poisoned environment, with the big
      money available to vested interests like Marc Benioff, CEO of Salesforce, who
      put the hammer on Governor Pence, it does not matter how carefully a law is
      written. Corporations like Apple, Walmart, and Salesforce will bludgeon
      politicians into submission in order to achieve their goal of a globally
      sourced, submissive, replaceable workforce.

      The only legal alternative people of faith have left, and it’s fading fast, is
      through recall elections.

  • John Flaherty

    I keep thinking that within 10 years, most weddings will become generally simple affairs, or at least, not very ornate or decorated. Many will only rely on those parts of planning a wedding that won’t involve a business endeavor. I think such may come about because, as time goes on, the gay rights lobby will exercise more influence over law. By doing so, they’ll force most businesses to do some real soul-searching, to decide between two options: Provide various services to gay couples…or cease business operations entirely.

    As I consider it, given what the same gay rights lobby has already inflicted on adoption agencies, I wouldn’t be surprised to see many other social events harmed as well. Any business effort that provides services to any kind of social event in which two people of the same sex might declare themselves to be gay or lesbian will be at risk.

    Any such business endeavor would become subject to threats of lawsuits about “discrimination” based on “bigotry”. For as vile as they have already been, I think we have only begun to scratch the surface of how bad things can become.

  • Joseph Lukowski

    Mr. O promised “change” to get re-elected – well here it is.

    • GW

      Right, Joseph. Everything is Obama’s fault.

      • GG

        Yea, it’s not like he pushes the gay agenda or culture of death. Uh huh.

        • GW

          “Culture of death.” No thanks, I’m not playing.

          • GG

            Nothing to play. The truth is obvious.

  • Scott W.

    The irony here is that these anti-RFRA people are the same crew that were telling us that dissent was the highest form of patriotism in the 2000s. One cult of personality later and O my how the tune has changed.

  • Carl

    I believe the point of critical mass has been reached and its time for people of good conscience to go after the homosexual Nazi’s with RICO laws. How many more businesses have to be harassed and destroyed before we do something about it?

    Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act

  • Albert8184

    “a revolution that favors adult sexual desires above all.”

    No. It is a revolution that ultimately aims at complete sexual liberation for minors too. But this so-called sexual revolution is only a pretext for a larger agenda: a weaponized cultural issue that undermines the American social fabric to pave the way for the REAL revolution: A Marxist revolution. A Marxist state aimed at abolishing religion, the family and parental authority over children. So that only the state and the individual slave are in relationship to one another.

    But look at all Marxist states, past and present. When are they ever paragons of progressive social mores and wide-open liberal values? NEVER. The liberalism is only a means to an end.

  • GW

    Mr. Newman, I guess I’m not going to receive an answer on the questions I posed to you yesterday. I understand that you’re only earning a paycheck, but I was hoping you would explain your thinking behind your writing.

    • Carl

      I guess it’s, no thanks he’s not playing. LOL

    • GG

      What are you missing? A pro family law was turned into a pro gay law by thugs. That is it.

  • Bill Guentner

    In every action by gays and their cohorts to protect their life style” large groups congregate to voice their opposition to the Christian message. Threats are sent by email, tweets, phone and letters to Christians who support a moral sexual message; the message of the gospel. Why don’t ALL Catholics and Evangelicals do the same? We must meet force with force; anger with anger; and answers to their threats through access to the law. We cannot continue to do nothing except to write a few comments in blogs like this one. We must manage to engage all the bishops to help leas this, which will not be an easy task given what appears to be their reluctance to be forceful. They can no longer write documents and hope that will solve the problem.

    • Hesychast

      Christians must meet anger with love. Christians meet force with love. Christians meet hate with love.

      Prepare yourself to lose this fight, yet to win the war with Christ.

      You see, the devil is making it easier and easier to tell the sheep from the goats. The goats are now accusing the sheep of being haters, racists, everything evil merely for believing that what Christ said about marriage is what we should believe.

      Did you ever think you would see something so extraordinary? I certainly did not. Yet here we are, right where Jesus said we would someday be – being accused falsely of all manner of evil simply because we believe in Christ and His Church.

      Like the Lord said – ‘Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in Heaven!’

  • clintoncps

    Homosexualism and its militant LGBTQ outgrowths will only get worse, more agressive, voracious, and child-focused, until one things happens: homosexuality is re-listed in the catalog or psychological disorders.

  • Ohso

    This story, like the link below, demonstrates that the Gaystapo Propaganda Scam is Not about buying or selling food, or other items – but about Forcing People to Speak Against Their Own Conscience and Faith.

    No one is refusing to sell cakes – but they are refusing to Write / Decorate them in a manner they find offensive. As the link shows, Who is offended is More Important when it is a Gaystapo Mau Mau Artiste…

    – and those with Different Viewpoints do Not have the Same Rights.

    Of course – the Baker / Decorator… Has a First Amendment Right – Not To Speak, which is what is being violated, by Forcing Speech / Writing they find offensive.

    SEE
    State agency backs bakery that refused to decorate cakes with message critical of homosexuality
    Catholic World News – 4-6-15 http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=24533
    The Colorado Civil Rights Division ruled that a bakery in Denver did not engage in discrimination when it refused to decorate cakes with messages critical of homosexuality…

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