Is Indiana Really Full of Christian Haters Eager to Hate Gays?

Just once wouldn’t you like to see some gay guy ask a Muslim baker to make a sheet cake with an image of Mohammed—Peace Be Upon Him?

Gay guys are awfully brave when they bully meek Christian bakers with the full force of the federal and state governments behind them.

But let them belly up to a Muslim counter and ask for something Muslims kill over and look what happens to non-discrimination claims then.

Would CEO Tim Cook of Apple get all crazy-brave over that one? After all, he sells iPhones in countries where they hunt gays down and kill them—throw them off high buildings, crush them under collapsing walls, cut their heads off—with nary a peep out of him, yet even the shuddery thought of a Christian baker not serving a gay wedding sends him into gay hysteria.

Like most things gay these days, most of what you read is simply false, deliberate falsehoods.

Tim Cook and others, including New Homophile Melinda Selmys writing at the increasingly useless Patheos, insist the Indiana law and others like them are nothing more than patent bigotry and hatred, licenses to discriminate in any service you may think of.

A gay guy walks into a bar and the bartender says with a sneer, “We don’t serve your kind. Now git.”

A gay guy walks into a tax accountant and the tax accountant says, “We don’t serve your kind. Now git.”

A gay guy tries to fill his car with gas and the gas pump says, “You sound gay and we don’t serve your kind. Now git.”

This is the nightmare advertised by the sexual left and their partners in the media and major corporations; “a license to withhold services” indiscriminately.

Apparently the people all over Indiana were just waiting for the chance to unleash their inner Saudi on the gays. All they needed to do it was the Religious Freedom Restoration Act. At long last, we can get them, yippee, let’s get those gays!

Forget that “sexual orientation and gender identity” are not explicit categories of non-discrimination in Indiana or hardly anywhere else and that this has not resulted in widespread discrimination against gay guys. Are gay guys sitting at lunch counters trying to get cheeseburgers but being denied? If this were the case, we likely would have heard of it.

Still, it appears that even Governor Mike Pence fell for this nonsense. He went from a strong defense of his quite sensible law on the Sunday talk shows to a full on retreat at his press conference on Tuesday. On Tuesday he announced the law would be fixed so that it would not be a ‘’license to discriminate,’’ so that no gay guy would be denied a cheeseburger anywhere, and that no one would be discriminated against by anyone else for any reason. Take that, all you gay-hating Christians.

So, what do these laws really do?

Religious Freedom Restoration Acts set up a legal test on whether the government may impose a religious burden on a person or company and if the burden cannot be met in any other way.

Through Obamacare the government said that it had a compelling interest in making sure that everyone could get abortion drugs free of charge and the only way to achieve this was by making all companies pay for them. The company Hobby Lobby said this unduly burdened their deeply held religious belief forbidding abortion. The Supreme Court agreed with Hobby Lobby.

Consider the case of a Muslim in prison. The government has a compelling reason for insisting all inmates are cleanly shaven. But the Muslims have a religious practice that requires a beard. What is the solution? Muslims in prison get to grow beards, only short ones that cannot hide weapons.

Religious Freedom Restorations Acts, which are present at the Federal level and in 30 states, are not licenses to discriminate. They are a balancing test between what the government wants and what should be left to the religious discretion of a believer. They are a defense in court that does not guarantee anything. Religious believers can and do lose in court when making these claims.

The test is this. The state must show 1) a compelling goal or “interest,” 2) that is the least restrictive means for achieving that goal. The believer must show 1) a sincerely held religious belief and 2) the law imposes an undue burden on following that belief.

Now take the case of a religious believer being asked to participate in a religious ceremony they find offensive. A gay couple is a long-standing customer to a florist in Washington. The florist has happily served the flower-needs of the gay couple for years until the day gay marriage came to the state of Washington and the gay couple announced their engagement and asked the florist to decorate their wedding ceremony. The florists said, “You know, I really love you two, and you have been great customers for years so I hope you understand, I cannot handle your wedding because I have a religious objection to the idea of same-sex marriage. Perhaps you can use the florist across the street” or any of the hundreds of other florists nearby.

The state of Washington went after the florist for this. She was prosecuted, fined and may lose her business because Washington state does not have freedom of religion protections for the florist and will not allow even a single Christian florist to dissent from the gay orthodoxy.

But, New Mexico has such protections. Even so, the law did not protect a photographer who declined on religious grounds from shooting a gay wedding. She lost her business altogether.

A Christian chaplain is about to be run out of the Navy after twenty years of sterling reviews and promotions. His crime? Counseling a fellow officer what the bible teaches about homosexuality and sex outside of marriage. The chaplain’s commander says such beliefs by a Christian chaplain hamper military preparedness and unit cohesion.

The day of the gay bully is well upon us. Do not think you can hide. It is now open season on believing Christians.

Where will we get relief from gays and their protectors in government, the media and corporations? That is the question.

Austin Ruse

By

Austin Ruse is president of C-FAM (Center for Family & Human Rights), a New York and Washington DC-based research institute focusing on international legal and social policy. The views expressed here are not necessarily those of C-FAM.

  • Rock St. Elvis
    • Samuel63

      That was perfect!

    • Ruth Rocker

      This is brilliant. If these people can refuse service because of their religious beliefs, then Christians should have the same right. The main difference is that muslims will kill you for being gay and not think twice about it – Christians will pray for you.

      I’ve put a link to this video on Facebook. Wanna bet it gets yanked??

      • John200

        I’d bet with you rather than against you.

        Tell us if it does indeed get yanked.

    • Tantem Ergo

      Sorry to be glib on Good Friday, but that was a major lol on this topic which is so unfunny.

    • St JD George

      Great minds read alike, ha.

    • Objectivetruth

      Excellent!!

  • Samuel63

    We may need to retreat to smaller local communities and there, nurture families and true faith. The public square is lost and the majority are still asleep. It will just take time for the rest of the public to understand how bad it already is. Once they awaken, we will need to re-connect and join the fight.

    • Vinny

      We need to support those who stand for their faith. From a monetary perspective, those persecuted pizza shop owners in Indiana had over $300K raised for them by, I think it’s called crowd-sourcing. They shouldn’t need all that money but if people know they’ll get what they need we can bring some additional courage into the fight.

      • Tantem Ergo

        Yes Vinny on Churchmilitant.tv there was a wonderful Go Fund Me campaign to support SF parish Star of the Sea for stating only boy altar serving, and it was very successful.

        • Vinny

          If we have a trusted organization vetting business people who stand for their faith with regard to crowd sourcing, many business people will have the courage to stand for normalcy without fear of losing income or having to pay legal expenses. That would snowball.

        • Michael Voris is a rock solid dude. He is making use of his talents to spread traditional catholic teaching — I say, “God bless him!”

    • Siwash

      This Benedict Option sounds good, until you consider whether it conflicts with our charge to tell the world about Christ.

      • St JD George

        On Tuesday I was driving around and listening to EWTN in the car and a show came on hosted by the Cardinal of NY. On it he had a Rabbi and and Imam and it was just a jolly old fraternal affair. The only thing missing seemed to be the beer, and the show seemed to be mostly about building their friendship and congratulating themselves on keeping the peace, i.e. like the peacefully coexist bumper sticker. I do believe that before you can start to evangelize it’s important to get to know people individually to avoid the immediate natural instinct to talk past one another without listening. However, the longer I listened the more it struck me that this was little more than 3 men being chummy talking on the radio. I know I don’t know them completely, and one show hardly is enough to draw too many conclusions from, but the show left me mostly uninspired as well.

  • mollysdad

    Where will we get relief from gays and their protectors in government, the media and corporations? That is the question.

    Perhaps the answer lies in being as uninhibited as the Westboro Baptists in talking about sodomites.

    • Oblomov

      Iran

  • GG

    Too many lead unexamined lives. They reason by emotion and pop culture. They fail to see how demonic gay ideology truly is. To many it is no big deal and just a different way to “love”. Such shallow and defective reasoning allows gay propaganda to triumph.

    • Siwash

      boy, is this ever the truth!

      And the activist propaganda drives the media people see, which further limits the public’s understanding of the issue.

      • Pat M

        EXACTLY. That is why I fault the media more than the activists. If the media didn’t carry the water for the activists, people would be able to see the issue clearly. Religious Liberty should be a no-brainer for every American. But because of the misinformation campaign most of them are confused.

    • Bravo for identifying homosexuality’s demonic origins. This needs to be done frequently at Christian forums. Once people identify and understand the problem, only then will the proper effectively solution of prayer and fasting be the much needed response.

    • Thomas Sharpe

      “will we get relief from gays and their protectors in government, the media and corporations?”
      Expect no relief: there is no such thing as a
      happy sinner and sexual immorality closes reasoned discourse. “There is no truth.” It’s now all about power…
      Speaking the truth will be charged as “burning” others, with sexual perversion in the present culture most “precious”, faithful Christians are about to become what they need to be “filthy little hobbits”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_aziIIp8U8

    • mairead conroy

      well said

  • Scott W.

    Distracting and unsubstantiated claim that Austin Ruse wants African countries to kill homosexuals in 3…2…1…

    • Austin Ruse

      Blastoff!

    • GG

      Well, the new Homophiles claim to follow Church teaching, wink wink, except when it comes to supporting just laws that protect Catholics. IOW, gay marriage is no problem for them.

  • AcceptingReality

    Just last night, in a casual conversation with a house guest who is an orthodox liberal, I commented that I personally don’t acknowledge “so-called” gay marriage. That my deeply held religious beliefs were that marriage is between one man and one woman. “It’s the law of the land”, he said. “You have to acknowledge it”. “No, I don’t”, I said. “I am faithful Catholic first, American second.” He said, “Then you should get out of the country. You’re not welcome.”

    Never mind I was born here some 57 years ago. My “house guest” says I should leave! Geez, Louise! Maybe he should leave!?

    • Scott W.

      Imagine a plantation owner in 1850 declaring that the Fugitive Slave Act was the law of the land and telling an abolitionist he had to acknowledge it.

      • GG

        Right, that implies an objective moral truth. The gays hate that.

      • In point of fact that is precisely what they did.

        • Scott W.

          Correct. The point being that just because something is law, doesn’t make it right.

    • Seamrog

      “Then you should get out of the country. You’re not welcome.”

      This is precisely the point the author is correctly making.

      “Those who have ears, ought to hear.”

    • GG

      Spoken like a Nazi. The law is unjust and do is no true law. Despicable.

    • Jay

      A liberal orthodox? As in a liberal Greek or Russian Orthodox?

    • Austin Ruse

      Should have squeezed his nose till he cried.

    • I certainly do not share that view. You are free to believe that a legally licensed marriage is not in fact marriage. In some commercial situations, laws might compel you to treat the couple as married but that has no effect on your religious beliefs.

      • bonaventure

        In some commercial situations, laws might compel you to treat the couple as married but that has no effect on your religious beliefs.

        You are a photographer, and therefore you are not allowed to refuse participating at a neo-nazi mock lynching rally. Because if you offer to take photographs of rallies, you HAVE to take pictures of the neo-nazi rally, just because they want you to, and because the neo-nazis’ right to stage a mock lyching is their constitutional right.

    • Siwash

      wow

    • fredx2

      Suddenly we went from tolerating different religious and political beliefs to fascism. All in one nice little hop.

      • Mickey’O

        Civilizations collapse slowly, then rapidly….

  • Keith Cameron

    The current brouhaha in Indiana is not a home grown or grass roots event. This has been orchestrated by powerful outside groups with the intent purpose to enshrine special carve outs for Gays (and it looks like Indiana has already capitulated).

    Don’t be deluded into thinking it can’t happen where you live. The Militant Gaystapo and their secular allies have their sights firmly fixed upon the ruination of all of Christendom. And you probably voted for, or contributed to the very individuals or groups that are plotting your personal and spiritual destruction.

    Yet, not one Catholic of stature is speaking out. Not one.

    • Yup. Watch CNN analysts and guest “luminaries” on this topic use the tired old “freedom to worship or believe what you want is not hampered by the demands of the state to not discriminate” schtick. They leverage “worship” to really mean “what Christians think about behind closed doors.” Faith cannot really inform practice at all on their view. The fact is the special interest secularists will closet Christians and then persecute them for not allowing the openly gender-flexible “gifted” crowd a spot in their fellowship.

      End game: shut down Christ and His followers. It’s been the way since 33 A.D. in lesser and greater degrees. The secular state can tolerate no competition for loyalty as it recognizes no greater entity beyond itself.

      • St JD George

        Indeed it has. Hard to believe how far we’ve fallen so fast even if the track for this train wreck (sorry for analogy DE) has been laid for some time now.

        When I read about the 150 Christians slaughtered at the Kenyan University this week, and having just read the passion of Jesus this Good Friday again, it really causes a heavy heart. It’s way past high time that we recognize that Satan is alive and well and persecuting Christians in our own back yard as well.

      • Objectivetruth

        Where ya been, Anglicanae? Always enjoy your posts.

        Happy Easter!

        • Been busy moving! I am still reading my favorite online catholic magazine, though. In about two weeks will be more free to post.

          Happy Easter to you too!

    • St JD George

      Keith, that has not been lost on me either, and quite frankly has my blood pressure up. Apparently we are quite comfortable in our cozy relationship with this administration and accepting of our peacefully coexist status, afraid to speak up or lose some cherished privilege. When I listen to Rev Graham speak I wonder why we aren’t shoulder to shoulder and where our voices are.

    • Timothy O’Donnell

      The silence is ominous. The wolves are eating the sheep alive. I will say our pastor Fr Dudzinski has spoken up with clarity and courage. Here is his homily.
      http://youtu.be/66wvRug-Dyc

  • JP

    Not one Indiana Republican that I know of has come to the Pizzeria’s defense. It wasn’t too long ago (perhaps a decade), grandstanding politicians would have elbowed each other out of the way to show their solidarity. How quickly things are changing. Walkerton Indiana sits in one of the more conservative areas in one of our nation’s most conservative states. This should tell us something.

    • Timothy O’Donnell

      I can’t think of one with the courage to withstand the storm. This incident has greatly emboldened the enemies of Holy Mother Church. I fear much worse is near.

  • ROB

    What’s the over and under on how many Catholic parishes will include the O’Connors in their prayers this week? To encourage the suckers I’d make it ten.

    • GG

      Have you read the Statement by the Indiana Bishops? That will answer your question.

  • St JD George

    Austin, you don’t have to imagine what that experience would be like, Crowder has done that for you. Fortunately for him, being that it was in Dearborn, he wasn’t beheaded or thrown from the top of a 10 story building.
    http://www.truthrevolt.org/commentary/hidden-camera-will-muslim-bakeries-make-gay-wedding-cake

  • Tantem Ergo

    As usual thank you Austin Ruse, this is going to get way worse before it gets better. The ignorance from the community at large, including most pew warming Catholics is astonishing. It’s enough to make one afraid for one’s family.

  • For starters, Austin, someone ordering a cake with Mohammed pictured would not be doing so as part of a protected class. It’s similar to to the Nazi asking the Jewish baker for a cake with a swastika (seems to be the exemplar du jour per Santorum). Nazis are not a protected class either.

    Why chew around the margins? If you want to defend what was briefly the law in Indiana then you have to defend the idea of someone refusing to sell flowers that will be displayed at a gay marriage.

    The origins of this behavior are the 2009 Manhattan Declaration and (then) Cardinal Ratzinger’s 2003 treatise on same-sex unions. Those documents oblige Catholics to conscientiously object to same-sex marriage. The question remains if civil law has to succumb to that obligation. Historically, conscientious objection requires knowingly breaking the law — willing to suffer the consequences. Absent the consequences what’s the point?

    The more daunting challenge is to convince anyone that the original intent of Indiana’s bill was not to legalize discrimination. In point of fact that was precisely what the bill’s supporters originally claimed. The number of Indianans who are eager to refuse services to gay people is less relevant than the fact that it would legal to do so by explicit act of the legislature and governor.

    • GG

      Some types of discrimination are just and necessary.

      • So if I refused to serve you because you are Catholic you are fine with that?

        • St JD George

          I would rather spread my faith, but I am happy to seek business that share my faith as well. Honestly, I do not really wish to be served by knowing and unrepentant sinners.

          • So then you do not shop at Jewish owned businesses?

            • GG

              How is that a relevant example?

            • Austin Ruse

              How does that follow? It is the left that is virulently anti-semitic.

              • Oh please. Respond to the original comment. BTW, for the record I have experienced more anti-Semitism in my life than homophobia and I assure you that it doesn’t come from the left.

                By the way there was a time in this country when it was perfectly appropriate for, say, a hotel to refuse service to Jews. “Restricted” hotels existed as a sincere expression of Christian religious belief. I actually reside in an area of Miami Beach that I could not have lived in 50 years ago.

                • Austin Ruse

                  Try wearing a kippah on the campus of any Ivy League school, old chum. See who is the anti-semite now.
                  what original comment am i not responding to?

            • St JD George

              We both look forward to the coming the Lord and Savior, so yes, I have no problem shopping there. The problem I have with the expression Jewish is that the reformed are so far removed from from their faith that they are hardly recognizable.

            • Austin Ruse

              Oh, i see, you think Jews are unrepentant sinners. David, your anti-semitism is showing! Why does the left so hate the Jews?

              • St JD George

                Actually, they pretend to love the reformed who can barely identify their faith other than to mammon, but hate the orthodox.

        • GG

          I would not care because I would realize that is unjust and so the person was shallow and moronic. But, that example is in no way comparable to denying participation in a sodomistic relationship.

          • But, that example is in no way comparable to denying participation in a sodomistic relationship.

            Really? I can make a pretty good case that religion is a choice while sexual orientation is not but that would be irrelevant.

            As a matter of public policy we accept the notion of a public accommodation. Business rely on publicly funded roads to bring customers to the door. Publicly funded police and fire departments protect the business. Publicly funded infrastructure makes it possible to run the business in the first place.

            • Austin Ruse

              Gay is not in the genes. Hilarious that old trope gets trotted out by the LGBTs…

            • St JD George

              You do understand the cunning and deceitful ways of Satan don’t you? He doesn’t bludgeon you over the head at first or always, his favorite tactic is to get you to own the decision of your own self destruction through lies and obfuscation. I do not deny people are lulled and become addicted, much like to pornography and heterosexual sin like that portrayed in 50 Shades of Grey for example. Committing deviant and unnatural acts of sex are blasphemous to God and are a CONSCIENCE CHOICE to act out against him.

            • Vinny

              Examine your emotional connection with your father.

            • GG

              Cancer is not a choice but we do not worship as a good. Your fundamental error is in failing to distinguish between right and wrong. An error in the beginning is an error indeed.

              Public accommodation is not a license to oppress moral people.

              • Objectivetruth

                But Frog will not respond to your post. Your analogy is strong and true, he has no argument against it. Truth to people like Frog is something to be shoved aside, ignored, trampled over, or mocked.

                • GG

                  I have posted dozens of times that the basic flaw in their moral reasoning is that they attempt to compare homosexual desire/acts with morally good things like marriage or faith and then go on to draw false conclusions. It is a warped and absurd thing that few grasp the gravity of. It is really nuts beyond reason.

          • mitch64

            What the bakers are sleeping with the couple on the honeymoon? Wow, that is a baker who goes above and beyond the call of duty!

            • GG

              The proximity to evil is not simply physical location.

        • Austin Ruse

          Sure..we are not quite as insecure as gays.

          • mitch64

            Hmmm, I think that “you,” (which I would think would be people who think like you) are quite insecure. Look at the hysterics involved in crying that you are being “discriminated,” against, which wasn’t that what you accused gays of constantly doing? “You” are seeing that you are shrinking minority of people in both the general population and the Christian community, and your power, as indicated by Pence’s back tracking is slipping. That is what this bill was all about insecurity.

            • Austin Ruse

              We would not whine if a gay baker said no to us. We do balk at the government forcing a foreign ideology upon us. See the diff?

              • mitch64

                What foreign ideology is it? Treating everyone who walks in your business the same? Giving equal access to your services?

                The govt is not forcing an ideology on you, it is not making you approve gay, or marrying another man. It is saying that this is now legal, and you must not discriminate. So you bake a cake, you drop it off, take the money and go. Where were you forced to absorb this ideology?

                • Austin Ruse

                  That the government can force you to participate in a religious ceremony that violates your conscience.

                • GG

                  It make people participate in their gay works. That is evil.

                • bonaventure

                  Where were you forced to absorb this ideology?

                  Being forced to use your skills and art for a homosexual “marriage” = being forced to participate in it.

        • Austin Ruse

          You are aware that a photographer refused to shoot the employee photos of the Alliance Defending Freedom because of their stance on faux marriage? Do you see them kicking up a fuss? No.

          • No I am not aware of that and it is irrelevant. ADF is probably not part of a protected class in this form of commerce.

            • Austin Ruse

              So, you are fine with discrimination. Cool!

              • Will you please stop the BS? I know that you are smarter than the red herring.

                The issue – the only issue – is what service is required by public accommodations and which classes of people are protected.

                • Objectivetruth

                  Like all of us, your short time on earth will be judged by Christ. You need to seriously think about the state of your soul.

                • Austin Ruse

                  And you are fine with a Muslim baker saying no to a gay guy. Weird.

              • Objectivetruth

                Austin, time to shake the dust off of your sandals with this amphibian. It’s Good Friday, this guy’s no better than the Roman guards who nearly scouraged Christ to death, mocking Jesus, spitting on Him.

                FROG: you’re a disgrace. On this incredibly somber day in the Church, you choose to spew your sewage. Absolutely no class. I was once advised to be careful calling anyone evil. But on the day Christ died for all of our sins (including your gay lifestyle sins), I can’t help but to call you evil.

                • Austin Ruse

                  Good Friday is a perfect day to help carry the Cross of Christ! David is spitting on Him. We defend Him.

                  • Objectivetruth

                    Agreed……

                  • Seamrog

                    Could not agree more.

                  • Tony

                    Austin et alii fratres mei: PONTICOLAE NON PASCENDI.

                    Don’t feed the trolls. Trolls are not interested in argument. They only want to irritate you, and divert the discussion.

                • St JD George

                  Still, pray for him and that the Holy Spirit will eventually come upon him, and he will come to know what you and I know.

    • Austin Ruse

      David, SOGIs are a protected class in only 18 states. And you would support this denial of service to a gay guy ordering a Muhammad cake? Really? That’s new. Slowly Boiled Frog supporters bigotry against gays.

      • Twenty-one states and the District of Columbia prohibit employment
        discrimination based on sexual orientation. 18 states and D.C. also prohibit discrimination based on sexual identity. In addition to the states, municipalities prohibit discrimination. One of those is Indianapolis. The original Indiana bill would have had the effect of making the Indianapolis law unenforceable.

        Your second argument is intellectually dishonest. I am simply saying that the gay guy ordering the Muhammad cake would not be protected by non-discrimination ordinances. Me? I’ll sell just about anything to anyone, reserving the right to call them a schmuck after a get their money. But that’s just me.

        • Austin Ruse

          18 states prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation and GENDER IDENTITY.

          Not intellectually dishonest at all. Non-discrimination protections protect against discrimination of any kind, not just weddings, David. So, go ahead, brave boy, go into a Muslim bakery and ask for a Muhammad cake. See where that getsya. LGBTs love to beat up on meek Christians. Try a tough Muslim, old boy.

          • Come on Austin, this is just a distraction (you haven’t really responded to my original comment). I would not ask a Muslim for that cake because it is in bad taste. However, if he refused to serve me I could not lodge a non-discrimination complaint. This is about what is – and what is not – lawful.

            • Austin Ruse

              DAvid, it is unlawful for a Muslim to refuse to serve a gay guy. You are cool with that. Hilarious. SLOWLY BOILED FROG SEZ MUSLIMS MAY REFUSE GAYS

    • St JD George

      Mr Frog, I would stand to protect you from being stoned and persecuted for your sins, but I would also admonish you to acknowledge, repent and then go forth and sin no more. I too am a sinner, and I am only saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. It is your only hope for salvation.

    • fredx2

      So gays are a protected class? When did that happen, and how did it overturn the first amendment?

      • Austin Ruse

        Sexual orientation and gender identity are a protected “class” in 18 states. The law has been used to punish Christians in the workplace. David is fine with that.

      • Seamrog

        Why would anybody WANT to be part of a ‘protected class?’

        It is totally contrary to God-given free will.

        This guy David, and his ilk cannot stand on their own as men.

        They need / want the protection of the State to sanction their immorality.

        It is almost as if the miss / crave the approval and protection of a father figure.

        • mitch64

          That’s rich…isn’t that what this bill was all about? Protecting a class of people. Can Pence and you and his ilk not stand on your own as men? Do you miss/crave the approval and protection of a daddy? Actually that line is ridiculous, you really crave the approval and protection of being the dominant voice in the public square.

    • Car

      Now go forthwith and ATTACK with all your fury!!!!
      Need the address?

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgWIhYAtan4

  • me, myself & I r all here

    one of the best articulations of the trumped up media driven hysteria…… while not a tweet about 147 Christians murdered while trying to go to school…..

    • St JD George

      Or the jailed Preacher in Iran who was not released despite the desperate attempt to reach a non binding accord either.

      • Carl

        Or a former US Marine, of Iranian heritage, who has been in jail for years now because he wanted to visit his aging grandmother!

  • wannabeapoet

    I don’t believe all this furor should be attributed to “gay bullying” I believe much of it stems from a real fear of discrimination which is highlighted by the action being taken against the Navy chaplain. Note, he’s under fire not only for counseling that homosexual acts are a sin, but for counseling that all sexual acts outside of marriage are sinful. How many bakers or photographers refuse to serve the heterosexual couple who are living together outside of marriage? How many bakers and photographers have refused to provide their services at the wedding of the customer who divorced his first wife to marry the younger second one?

    I believe according a relationship between two people of the same sex as marriage is to fundamentally change the definition of marriage. I also believe that absent an annulment, a marriage coninues despite a civil divorce and so for either spouse to enter into a second marriage that includes sexual relations is adultery. And, as the Navy chaplain counsels, sex between any two people outside of a marriage is a sin, be they of the same sex or of opposite sex.

    But positions taken by the baker and the photographer, and now these laws, suggest it’s OK for me to be selective in how I choose to honor my religious beliefs. I can look the other way when choosing to serve customers openly committing sins involving heterosexual sex while choosing to deny those same services to those customers who are committing sins involving homosexual sex. This begins to look like discrimination because in the name of standing up against sexual behavior that is sinful, I am refusing to cooperate with one category of sexual sin while continuing to cooperate with other categories of sexual sin. That I single out a minority while continuing to serve the majority looks even more like discrimination that is unfair and hypocritical.

    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

      This is a ridiculous post, and shows the mind-bending nature of defenders of discrimination against Christians. How would a caterer know that a marriage is the second or third for one of the parties? Only homosexuals love to trumpet their vices publicly. Most other people still have at least some sense of decorum. But yes, a Catholic florist should certainly have the right to refuse service to an adulterous couple, regardless of what they call their event.

      • St JD George

        Knowing your military heritage, I thought you’d enjoy (sarcasm) this.
        http://www.truthrevolt.org/videos/bill-whittle-sir-i-will-not-obey-order

      • wannabeapoet

        It’s not at all unusual for a baker or florist to learn about the marital status of his customers, especially the ones who live in the neighborhood. My point is not that the Catholic baker or florist shouldn’t have the right to refuse service to an adulterous couple, but rather that we don’t hear of such refusals because I doubt they’re happening or that bakers and florists are asking for the right to refuse service to persons engaged in heterosexual relationships outside of marriage. Simply put, in a time when the culture has all but abandoned the notion that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is sinful, we shouldn’t be surprised that many in that culture – not just gays – would be suspicious of a law that appears aimed only at persons who engage in homosexual sex. Religious liberty can begin to look like a phony excuse if I serve certain persons I know are engaged in one kind of sexual sin but insist on the right to deny service to other persons engaged in other kinds of sexual sin. If the culture hadn’t slid so far from the standards it used to uphold regarding heterosexual relationships, we wouldn’t be where we are now with regard to homosexual relarionships.

        • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

          You are wrong about this. I used to be a Church organist and choir director, and as such, I was occasionally hired to play organ at weddings. I always declined whenever I found out that one or both of the engaged were fallen away Catholics or previously married. No one had a fit over my decision. It is ONLY homosexuals who are claiming to be a protected class in this regard, who insist that their “right” to “marry” outweighs the right of Christians to refuse to sanction sacrilege and sodomy.

          • wannabeapoet

            I don’t think an organist or choir director who holds himself out as available to provide music for the Sacrament of Marriage in the Catholic Church is in the same position as a merchant engaged in for-profit commercial enterprise who holds himself out as available to sell his goods and services to the public at large. I don’t expect the Catholic Church to be conducting marriage ceremonies for people of the same sex. Unfortunately, in my view, civil authorities in a majority of states now offer same-sex couples the opportunity to enter into what the law will recognize as a marriage.

            I would stand by the florist or photographer who wants the right to decline on religious grounds the request of a same-sex couple for flowers or photographs at their wedding. My only point has been that in a society which has slipped to such a low standard of sexual morality, it’s hard to persuade the majority in the culture that what I believe should be a right isn’t in reality discriminatory. That’s why I started out by saying that I don’t believe all this furor can be blamed on gay bullying.

            • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

              I think you missed my point. I played organ, or sang, at many weddings, Catholic and non-catholic. I had no problem with two protestants marrying at a protestant church. But I did decline a protestant wedding involving an ex-catholic. As things are now developing, it could become illegal for a musician to decline services at a homosexual “wedding” in a protestant church if he or she performs services at a real wedding at the same protestant church.

    • GG

      So, you decide when someone must violate his conscience? How Nazi-like.

  • Charles Putter

    I am not sure what qualifications are needed to become a naval chaplain. I presume one needs to be a member of the clergy. How then can a chaplain be run out of the navy for doing the job he was hired to do. That’s downright unfair, unconstitutional to use a legal term. It’s entrapment of a Christian minister. The navy is a prescient body in this matter. They cannot deny knowing Christian beliefs in matters of infidelity and homosexuality. Hypocrisy of the highest order, that’s what I say…………….. Blessed Good Friday.

    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

      A judge recently ruled that California has a constitutional obligation to provide a “sex change” operation for a convict in prison. The constitution means nothing anymore. It is a blank piece of paper on which degenerates in black robes legislate the perversions they wish to force on the rest of us.

      • GG

        100% correct. Moral idiots who can reason.

        • St JD George

          … who can reason, unnaturally.

          • GG

            I mistyped. I should have said who cannot reason.

    • Seamrog

      Catholic Chaplains have a tough time in the military – for lots of reasons, but not a small one is agenda-driven ideologues out to force their issues.

      There is a very real need for strong moral and spiritual guidance for young service men and women and their families, and it seems there is a minority who use these legal loopholes and protections to ensure those needs are met in the smallest, most watered-down way possible.

  • mitch64

    No Austin, if you watched the news you would see that Indiana is NOT full of Christians *Haters* (did you mean people who hate Christians or Christians who hate..)ready to “hate on gays.” You see all of those people within Indiana, business owners, corporations and private individuals, most of whom *are* Christians, who were rallying “against,” the original law. Its the Republic politicians , in the form of Pence and others, who cynically tried to appeal to the “base.” However, they ended up with egg on their faces as they misjudged that their base is getting, older and smaller every day.

    Indiana is full of good people who want to live and let live and ensure that others do too. Its not about Christians or Hoosiers, its about a small group of very loud people who found themselves outnumbered and looking like fools.

    • GG

      It is about a pro family bill turned into a pro gay bill. The thugs won.

      • mitch64

        Where did it mention anything about family? It was a religious freedom bill that was written without the safety clauses which could stop people from discriminating against not only gays, but whomever they chose by saying ti was their deeply held religious belief. It became a gay issue as it was obviously coming on the heels of the court allowing gay marriages in Indiana.

        • GG

          It is about gays. They are the ones suing Christians.

          It is about families because Christians understand if you persecute people of conscience you destroy the family.

          • mitch64

            Are all those people protesting this gay? Is the head of Angies List, and WallMart gay?Are they not “Christians,” themselves? The problem you are having is that it is not just the gay “activists,” involved in this anymore. Its Christians, and young people and old people and business people and yes, pro business Republicans who are involved in this. So the old argument, “its just the gay activists,” has gone down the tube but you would like to pretend otherwise.

            Where is the persecution? Because people who own a business have to treat everyone fairly?

            • James of Clan Scott

              If a Catholic or other Christian in their prudent judgement concludes in conscience that direct participation in a sacrilegious same sex wedding ceremony is wrong then to force them to go against their conscience is to force them to sin.

              It is also un-American. If fascist anti-civil liberty left-wingers have their way then in principle one could force a gay photographer to photograph a wedding at the Westburro Baptist Church or fine or jail him if he doesn’t.

              That is the kind of country you want to live in?

              The issue is not Christians wanting the “right” to arbitrarily deny service to gays because they are gay. The issue is being free to opt out of not directly participating in a wicked ceremony.

              I wouldn’t photograph a wedding between a man and a woman if it was being held in a Satanic Temple.

              You don’t believe in freedom it seems.

            • GG

              The gay lobby has minions. No surprise there. Evil is attractive. That is why the baptism rite asks us to reject Satan and his empty promises.

            • LarryCicero

              Does everyone have to treat people who own a business fairly?

    • Objectivetruth

      Why do you spend so much of your waking hours on orthodox Catholic websites? Shouldn’t you be out busily living the “gay” utopian dream? Why the obsession with attacking the Church?

      Why does Christ and Catholicism and its Truths so annoy you? The problem for you is that voice deep inside of your conscience telling you to turn from your immorral sinful lifestyle will never be silenced until you choose to repent.

      But you’ll continue to come here because by mocking Christ and His Church it is the only way you can hope to silence that voice in your heart, the voice of Christ. It must be exhausting to constantly fight against that voice, telling you to turn from sin.

      • GG

        That is basically what this is all about and always will be about. They need to stamp out all dissent. They think it will strangle their conscience. It never will.

        • mitch64

          LOL who is stamping out dissent? I am dissenting and in turn am accuse as above with mocking Christ and hating the Church, when I posted no such thing. Don’t you think is meant to stifle dissent?

          • GG

            Dissent from the truth, not gay propaganda. There is that distinction again that the gay lobby cannot make.

            • mitch64

              Once again, the “truth” as you designated it. A “truth,” that a lot of your fellow Americans, not to mention Catholics, disagree with. That is a distinction you cannot make.

              • GG

                Relativism is evil.

                • mitch64

                  Once again no answer just a cliche demonization of someone you don’t agree with. Come at me with some facts and something to actually discuss, instead of a one line answer that must be a stock reply when anyone disagrees with you, and then we can talk.

                  Have a very nice Easter..Christ has risen and its a time for joy.

                  • James of Clan Scott

                    The Truth is the Church Infallibly and objectively teaches us that gay sex acts are intrinsically evil. Thus a ceremony that claims to unite two persons of the same gender in marriage is a mockery of nature and the Holy Sacrament of Marriage.

                    Thus to directly participate in such a ceremony is a direct material & or formal participation in evil and this is forbidden.

                    It’s not hard when you know how.

                  • GG

                    The truth is obvious. Gay ideology is anti Christian. It is demonic. If you need more evidence start by reading the bible.

              • Tantem Ergo

                Almighty God, the author of truth, doesn’t need us to “agree with him”.

      • mitch64

        Show me how I attacked the Church, or in anyway mocked Christ. I debated Austin’s point, why don’t you spend your time responding to what I said, instead of throwing out your hyperbole and insults, which don’t even have anything to do with what i just wrote? I am a Catholic, I am interested in what people say, I like to see other people’s opinions, and I feel free to comment with my own., but usually only when really outrageous statements on made with the nodding approval of everyone here. Do you understand?

        • Objectivetruth

          I’ve read your posts. You’re not a Catholic. But you are a liar.

    • Juan José Rivera Díaz

      So, you are one of those “christians” who tell The Church (and therefore, Our Lord) what is what. Is your “truth”, not The Truth. The fact that many “christians” are cowards and hypocrites doesn’t make their position “christian”. They are just appeasing the homofascist bunch.

      You are basically telling that Doctrine must come from the pop culture, not from Our Lord.

      • mitch64

        So you are one of those “christians,” who tell others what to believe and what not to believe and if they disagree with you start throwing out “coward,” and “hypocrite,” and my favorite…”homofascist” Does that make you a chritianfascist..you know, believe what I say or I will scream you down with insults.

        Are all of those christians protesting this bill “homofascists?” even if they are not gay? Is Wall Mart and Angie’s List run by homofascists?

        • Juan José Rivera Díaz

          If being faithful to Doctrine makes me a “christianfascists”, then I am.
          And I’m not insulting anyone. I’m being honest.
          How would you call a “christian” who goes against the basic tenets of Christianity?
          How would you call a “christian” who chooses the world over Our Lord?

          Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.” Mt. 16:23

          According to your way of thinking, Our Lord is a “christianfascist”.

    • Austin Ruse

      No they’re not. Polls show overwhelming support for Christian businesses wanting to avoid gay “weddings” The need for a “fix” was precisely a slander against Hoosiers.

    • cestusdei

      If we are getting older etc. then why the firestorm of hate and death threats? Why do homosexuals not let Christian businesses “live and let live?” You will never get all of us to agree with you, so unless you plan on a “final solution” you are going to have to be dare I say it…tolerant.

  • My compliments to Austin Ruse for a well thought out and written article on the gay agenda’s attack on religious freedom, in particular on Christianity. Although the article has identified the immorality of homosexuality and the details of the Indiana religious freedom act, it did miss an important aspect of this battle; the spiritual component.

    Ruse asks at his last sentence, “Where will we get relief from gays and their protectors in government, the media and corporations? That is the question.” The relief will only come if we pray and fast. These are the two essential weapons in the spiritual fight against homosexuality, which in itself is of demonic origin.

    Jesus told the apostles who complained that some demons would not obey their commands. His reply was that some demons can only be driven out through fasting. (Mark 9:29) It is a teaching reiterated from Our Lady in Medjugorje, who has stated in Her messages, that through fasting you can accomplish anything. Even wars can be stopped.

    The real question that should be asked at the end of this article is, “Are we willing to pray and fast?” For those interested in further details, I have blogged about this. Please visit my profile for the url.

    Peace.

  • Charles Putter

    People who sell guns NEVER enquire about the “sexual identity” of their customers. I wonder why. But it would be a very different matter if the seller were asked to deliver the gun to a location where the buyer intended to murder someone. Wouldn’t it?

    • Seamrog

      These same people obsessed with acceptance of their immorality don’t seem to mind that businesses are legally allowed to discriminate against people who carry concealed firearms.

      You may notice prohibitive signs posted on the doors of businesses that prevent law-abiding citizens from exercising their constitutionally protected rights to bear firearms in their establishment.

      Restrictive access to services is fine if it suits an agenda, but a punishable offense if it objects to their deviant behavior.

  • Hesychast

    Great article. The real challenge will begin when the Supreme Court allows same-sex marriage in all 50 states. I predict that within 24 months of that decision, pastors will be required to perform same-sex weddings or forfeit their licenses.

  • Timothy O’Donnell

    Thank you for your article. I’ve been sharing my own story wherever possible to get the word out.

    Queer terrorizes grandma for being Catholic.
    RFRA backlash

    Friends.

    I live in Indiana and have for almost 25 years.

    I can share some very disturbing backlash first hand to RFRA. It happened today in my home (March 30, 2015).

    For the past 10 years I have had the same person help clean my house. He’s always been trustworthy, dependable, and does a good job. Let’s call him John (not his real name).

    That all changed.

    Our relationship had always been cordial and I am often at my office when he would come to the house. At home my 76 year old mother is usually there. She’s frail suffering from near blindness and chronic health conditions. Through the years their relationship has always been good.

    As a devout Catholic my home has sacred art in it such as crucifixes and pictures of Our Blessed Lord and the Saints.

    Also my Faith has inspired me to be active in many Prolife causes and events over the past 15 years. So when people come to my home they can tell I am a faithful Catholic and prolife.

    John (not his real name) came to our home as usual to help clean the house. He comes every 2 weeks.

    My mother greeted him and was met with cursing, aggressiveness, and fury. John was very angry about the RFRA just signed by Governor Pence. John yelled f-bombs and called my elderly mother a bigot and accused her and all “religious” people of discrimination. She called me after 15 minutes of his tirade and she was reduced to tears and horribly scared by him. I could hear him yelling obscenities in the background at her.

    John would not get on the phone and I told my mom to ask him to leave or I would call 911. He left.

    I raced home to find my mom still shaking. She is completely vulnerable unable to escape his unspeakable tirade.

    You see John is gay. It’s never been an issue before because I simply employed him to do a job. We knew he was gay from the beginning and he readily talked about his recent so called marriage to his partner.

    Our home is a Christian home that welcomes all – especially sinners. I am the greatest of sinners.
    We didn’t see having John in our home to work as an opportunity to proselytize but an opportunity to witness through our personal examples. Of course I wanted John to come to know the unfathomable love of a merciful loving God. But he has never been open to discussing Faith and we never tried to shove it at him. Ever.

    Sadly, John sees religion – most certainly Christianity – as an indictment of his lifestyle and choices. He reacted with so much hate and aggression and anger that must coming from a place of tremendous hurt and pain.

    I had to fire John because of his behavior that frightened my mom so terribly. We will continue to pray for John that his eyes and his heart may be opened.

    Please let Christians know that real oppression is upon us.

    Jesus, I trust in you.

    • cestusdei

      This hate and rage will only grow as it is fed by the media and activists. We will not be safe as Christians, even in the closet.

      • Veritas

        “In the closet.”
        Ironic, isn’t it?

    • Austin Ruse

      Mr. O’Donnell, I am a writer at Breitbart News, good friends withBob Reilly. Without using names, may I tell this story at Breitbart?

      Please respond here or to me at austinruse@c-fam.org

      • Timothy O’Donnell

        Yes. I would be most appreciative if the trauma my mother suffered could be used for good. I’ll email from my personal email as well. Thank you for your courage.

        • Austin Ruse

          Great!. Write to me.

    • Austin Ruse

      Wow. Just noticed you put this on my column. May I tell this story?

  • Veritas

    Would it be a crime to take crappy pictures? To bake a crummy cake? If the government forces me to participate, I don’t need to provide quality. “Pay up front,” those are my terms.

    You see, in my line of work I know what coercion looks like, and so I also know how to respond so that they get the message that coercion never works.

    • Scott W.

      I wouldn’t know about the legality of shoddy work, but the Catechism is clear at 2409 under the 7th Commandment (my emphasis):

      The following are also morally illicit: speculation in which one contrives to manipulate the price of goods artificially in order to gain an advantage to the detriment of others; corruption in which one influences the judgment of those who must make decisions according to law; appropriation and use for private purposes of the common goods of an enterprise; work poorly done; tax evasion; forgery of checks and invoices; excessive expenses and waste. Willfully damaging private or public property is contrary to the moral law and requires reparation.

      In addition to the wickedness of forcing a Christian to provide services that violate his conscience, it is also dishonorable. But we ought not respond to dishonorable acts with dishonorable acts. Keep our honor and we will prevail. Become dishonorable and we don’t deserve to prevail.

      • Veritas

        Let’s go a little further, okay? “Thou shalt not kill” is lessened by The Just War Doctrine, is it not?
        Is there not be some kind of mitigating doctrine for the coerced baker or photographer objecting to moral depravity? “Work poorly done” in the Catechism, to me, applies to work that is mutually contracted; but in the case we are discussing, it is tyrannical for the government to prosecute a single baker or photographer for not accepting the other party’s bid–especially in light of the fact that the couple can easily go to a competitor for the same product. The government creates the possibility of a reverse witch hunt by not allowing a business owner to decline business for ANY reason. If homosexuals are a protected class, there is nothing stopping them from shopping elsewhere in a competitive market–and wedding photographers and bakers are a dime a dozen. How many times do we say, “I’m not going to that restaurant again!” This would be the same thing.
        I suppose the poster who identifies himself as a Jewish homosexual would probably tell me that doing the work so that the customer chooses not to return would be illegal because the government can read our minds.

        • Carl

          it’s real simple, be a conscientious objector/martyr and go to jail or make the cake.

          • GG

            Some cannot object as they have obligations to others. If forced to participate in an evil event one should resist as much as possible.

        • Scott W.

          Let’s go a little further, okay? “Thou shalt not kill” is lessened by The Just War Doctrine, is it not?

          Actually it isn’t because it is two different chosen acts. It is the difference between choosing to deliberately kill an innocent and choosing to repel an unjust aggressor. But a unjust aggression isn’t an “anything goes” license.

    • GG

      A good question for a good moral theologian. I would love to see the answer.

      As you say you would be coerced. If you are forced to act against your will I cannot see why you must provide a good effort. I would think you are obligated to resist.

      What if you were forced to produce porn? Would you be obligated to do a good job? I would say no.

      • Scott W.

        Since producing pornography would be immediate material cooperation with evil, one would have only one morally upright choice: refuse to do it and accept the consequences.

        Where it gets murkier is things like cakes and flowers because those things do not directly produce the same-sex abomination masquerading as marriage. They contribute, but are less than immediate material cooperation. But it is important to remember that just because one’s culpability might be reduced in those situations, that doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. I think it is one those pick-up-your-cross-and-follow-Him moments. Granted, easy for one to say who doesn’t have business to lose, but I think since this is only going to get worse, might as well resist now while we havent been herded into the ghetto yet.

      • Objectivetruth

        “A good question for a good moral theologian. I would love to see the answer.”

        An analogy is the one where you’re a German family hiding a Jewish family in your attic during WW II. A Nazi official knocks on your door, and asks if you are hiding any Jews. Is your response of “No” (essentially a lie) morally justified? According to (I believe) Aquainas, the answer is yes. The Nazis are making a mockery of the Truth, by killing innocent Jews. They have no respect for truths, therefore, are acting outside the boundaries of Truth. You as the German family are under no moral obligation bound to respond to them with truth.

        A “gay wedding” is the denial of the Truth. You are under no obligation to give them a good effort, because the whole “wedding” is a lie to begin with.

        • GG

          I agree. The fake wedding is more evil than most grasp. Just think of the effect on children. It is demonic.

          Participating in it is gravely wrong.

          • Objectivetruth

            Even the “gay” rainbow flag is a satanic mockery of the promise God made to Noah using a rainbow to symbolize that promise.

    • Objectivetruth

      I would have charged the “gay” couple $12,000 to bake the cake, see if they’d blink and go elsewhere.

      If they agreed, I would love then to wheel out onto the “gay” wedding’s dance floor a wedding cake that was a creation of my six year old daughter’s efforts and her Easy Bake oven. Her signature ingredients in any of her recipes are Lima beans and gummy bears.

      • Veritas

        I think that you and GG get my point. If my employer or the government–and they can both be the same–coerces me to do something that violates my religious beliefs, I can resist or I can quit my job. Not everybody can quit their job after a certain age, so the choice becomes comply or resist.
        Truthfully, I don’t know how I would do crappy work because that is not how I operate; furthermore, I would not wish to “rip off” the homosexual party involved–after all they are still God’s children, although very misguided and armed with lethal power that they might maliciously use for vengeful purposes.
        I have reconsidered my original post. While it sounded cool, I think the right thing to do would be to provide the service. If I were coerced into making weapons to destroy my allies, I would indeed do my worst work and exercise subpar quality control. On that, there is no argument. The evil in all of this is that in one case, the evil is the government; in the other case, the evil is both the government and those whom are empowered by governmental or judicial fiat, to threaten or intimidate those who are not bigots, but who are rightfully acting in conscience.

        • GG

          To force someone to act against their conscience is a grave act. The government is to ble but the bad faith actors share a huge culpability. They know you do not want to participate but you may be forced to. I cannot see why you would be obligated to perform under duress. The quality of service they receive is proportional to the duress they pose. In fact, to do a good job may be sinful under the circumstance.

  • cestusdei

    Actually Steve Crowder did go to Dearborn and asked Muslim bakers to bake a wedding cake for a homosexual wedding. They refused. No media firestorm ensued. Any speculation as to why?

  • CadaveraVeroInnumero

    Where are the New Homophiles? Shouldn’t they be counseling their militant gay brethren to tone it down. To be patient. As New Homophiles they being increasing accepted into all sorts of “faith community”. When the (Post-Modernist/Christian) New Millennials push out the once much taunted JPII New Faithfuls the games up. Hang up the brown shirts in the closet – so they seem to be saying – the cup of (repent-less) mercy will soon be overflowing.

    Just bide the time. For now, its enough that mother bears and all the little foxes hold back from (giving the appearance) of spoiling the garden. The feasting table will soon be spread before us.

    So how soon, when?

    When in June the Supreme Court releases their “Rowe Vs Wade” decision on same-sex marriage? In September after Pope Francis delivers his ECOLOGY/CLIMATE CHANGE address at the U.N> (of all things, when the moral life of the world has opened wide Hell’s Gate!!). Or, in October when the Family Synod in Rome concludes?

    Whenever, it’s all smooth sailing, it seems. The Queer Theory ship will be porting in every harbor of the land, all spruced up for tours by fourth grader field trippers nationwide.

    [From, as ever, the BANKRUPT Diocese of Stockton, the Mother Lode]

  • Amatorem Veritatis

    Is anyone else finding the silence deafening from the USCCB and our individual Bishops? Does the Church need any additional evidence as to the trajectory of these events, and the ultimate target? Waiting for orders? Waiting for others? Leading from behind?

    So many questions… so few answers.

    • Scott W.
      • Veritas

        Just now read it. The bishops are neutral.

        • Carl

          It doesn’t explicitly state support for the actual state law in question but it does support the intent of the law without specifics.

          • Veritas

            ….while reiterating the right to religious freedom.

          • Scott W.

            Right. This makes sense because a Catholic can reasonably believe the RFRA is the wrong legislation for the right reasons and not be a bad Catholic so to speak. I don’t happen to think that, but I understand it because it would certainly set my teeth on edge if bishops started implying that if I don’t vote for a specific piece of legislation that raises the minimum wage that I’m not a good Catholic.

      • Amatorem Veritatis

        This is good as far as it goes….it just does not go very far IMHO. Who sees this? Virtually no one. Has any of the Bishops captured some TV time? I am sure the hyenas in the press would like to get a Bishop on camera.

    • Dick Prudlo

      Waiting for the USCCB or our bishops individually is akin to waiting for a bus in Central Detroit, you know one of two things are going to happen 1. You get mugged while waiting or 2. you get it while on the bus. We were mugged by the “spirit of the age” while waiting on the “springtime” of Vat II. Using your hands and possibly your feet will be adequate in counting up the actual Catholic Bishops that populate our dioceses’.

      They will all play their role in October by throwing Catholic Doctrine under said bus.

      • Amatorem Veritatis

        Thanks…needed the chuckle! I have been in central Detroit many times and although I have never caught the bus, I know of which you speak.

        As far as any October surprise, I will hold my fire until it is clear that the Barque of St. Peter has in fact capsized. Until then, I will assume that our Jesuit Captain simply loves the optics of tacking back and forth against the head winds of secularism. I have seen no proof that he has come about, and is now jibing along with those prevailing winds of secularism.

        Time will tell..

  • Veritas

    Since we are swapping stories, I work with a guy who tutored some high school students in their house. He told me that mom and dad were really mom and mom. They were doing a great job with all the adopted kids and provided most all of their needs.
    One day, he went to the bathroom but told the kids to remain at the table doing their work. Shortly after when he returned, they were missing–hiding and being playful.
    When the kids returned, he chided them as being little devils from the Garden of Eden. He was being playful in return. They turned serious and said, “We are not allowed to read the Bible.” They liked him and were confused that such a likable guy would actually use a Biblical metaphor.
    That was his last tutoring session with the kids. It may have been that the moms felt the kids no longer needed or benefitted from the tutoring, but it also might have been a banishment since he spoke of the Bible.
    Tutors should be a protected class.

  • GW

    Mr. Ruse, I would respectfully suggest that if you want to be taken seriously as a commentator, you should focus more on helping people think through these issues and to perhaps give your point of view some thought.
    On the other hand, if you want to earn your pay as a destructive, back-of-the-house bomb thrower, then keep writing essays such as this one. I hope the pay’s good because, as a wise man once told me, “Look, if you’re going to sell out, then get full price.”

    • Tony

      Austin Ruse has done more to hold the line against the madness and the cruelty of the sexual revolution, and the abortion regime, and the program of family-destruction which the rich west attempts to visit upon the third world, than any human being in the world. It is an exhausting and thankless task. If that makes him impatient with do-nothing Catholics who make their peace with the insanity, well, he is in company with Dietrich von Hildebrand … Oh, I am sure that plenty of urbane and risk-averse Catholics at THAT time thought that Von Hildebrand too was a back of the house bomb-thrower. DVH opposed Hitler in 1921 … Let that register for a while. That was 1921, many years before the Night of the Long Knives, many more years before the Holocaust …

      What is so hard to understand here? A private businessman doesn’t want to participate in evil. If I’m a photographer, I don’t want to have to shoot a ménage a trois wedding, or whatever next insanity we are going to see. Why in the name of this once free country should the immense force of the State be leveled at a single person who merely wants to run a simple business without having to go whoring on demand?

      • GW

        It’s not a matter of understanding that “a private businessman would not want to participate in evil.” We live in a democracy, and your “private businessman” should be the most outraged at a Governor and legislature whose incompetence and baldly political motives do such a disservice to his/her religious concerns.
        The law was poorly written and would have enabled people to discriminate and claim a religious objection.
        The Governor, while insisting that “enabling discrimination was not the goal of the law,” was already being contradicted by the statements of his supporters.
        The law was substantially different than the federal statute.
        They’ve already changed the law in ways that they originally claimed that they wouldn’t.

        The only “whores” in this controversy are the Governor and Legislature of my home state of Indiana.
        It doesn’t make me happy to write these things, but this is not the way to advance the Christian cause. And the bilious, hateful crap that Mr. Ruse has spewed on this web site is also not the way to advance the Christian cause.

        • Carl

          GW i thought you were above name-calling?

          whores
          bilious
          hateful crap

          How about being a nice guy and tell me the closing price of IBM stock for next Friday? I mean since you have some kind of crystal ball that can predict the future and read other people minds and their real intentions.

          Let’s get real, you’re telling me, if you like your Catholic weddings you can keep your Catholic wedding. With one caveat, I have to physically and materially support your disordered wedding.

          • Carl

            Oh I missed destructive and back-of-the-house bomb thrower.

            GW, do you actually think anyone here at Crisis is taking you seriously as a commentator? Really? Then take your narcissistic-thread administrator wannabee-attitude some where else.

            Hey, it looks like Memories Pizza, Ind Yelp web page is getting a little low of mean spirited name calling. Maybe you could hurl a few jibes there!

            • GW

              The law was poorly written and would have enabled people to discriminate and claim a religious objection. The Governor claimed that enabling discrimination was not the goal of the law while his supporters were already claiming that it would. The law was substantially different than the federal statute. They’ve already changed the law in ways that they originally claimed that they wouldn’t.
              Trying to impugn my experience, question my motives, or otherwise insult me does not change that fact.

              And as of last night, the legal defense fund for Memories Pizza had passed $200K.

              • GG

                The law was fine until the gay thugs came and bullied everyone.

                • GW

                  “gay thugs”

                  • GG

                    Gay thugs. The evil lobby that foists deviancy on society. Your pals.

                    • GW

                      A few of them. They don’t talk, act, or appear to be evil, though. You, on the other hand…

                    • GG

                      You think “gay” is normal so your reasoning is flawed.

                  • Objectivetruth

                    Now play nice, GW. If you’re good mommy will give you an extra scoop of ice cream for dessert tonight.

                    • GW

                      Insulting me does not change the facts on the ground. The governor and legislature in IN backtracked, I’m hearing. Their incompetence cost the Christian movement a great deal.

        • Augustus

          It’s obvious you don’t give a damn about advancing the “Christian cause.” You don’t care about defending freedom of conscience. You want what the gay activists want: Force people who disagree with the gay agenda to violate their consciences. The governor caved because he was not prepared to withstand the lies and deceit poured on the state by the gay fascists and the brain dead moral cowards who occupy some corporate board rooms. The cases of gay persecution of Christians have been well documented. Those states that don’t have RFRA are particularly vulnerable. The federal law is limited in its protections which is why the original Indiana state law was better. It’s not surprising that you would favor a weaker law–though given your hostility to Christian self-defense, if you were honest you would admit that you would oppose any such law. But you’re not capable of that, are you?

          • GW

            The law was poorly written and would have enabled people to discriminate and claim a religious objection. The Governor claimed that enabling discrimination was not the goal of the law while his supporters were already claiming that it would. The law was substantially different than the federal statute. They’ve already changed the law in ways that they originally claimed that they wouldn’t.
            Trying to impugn my experience, question my motives, or otherwise insult me does not change that fact.

            • GG

              A good law was destroyed by the gay agenda. Evil.

              • GW

                “gay agenda. Evil.”

                • GG

                  Gay agenda. Evil.

          • GW

            The law was poorly written and would have enabled people to discriminate and claim a religious objection. The Governor claimed that enabling discrimination was not the goal of the law while his supporters were already claiming that it would. The law was substantially different than the federal statute. They’ve already changed the law in ways that they originally claimed that they wouldn’t.

            Trying to impugn my experience, question my motives, or otherwise insult me does not change that fact.

        • GG

          Some discrimination is good and needed.

          • GW

            “Some discrimination is good and needed.”

            • GG

              Unequals must be treated unequally as a matter of justice.

        • Austin Ruse

          “The law was poorly written and would have enabled people to discriminate and claim a religious objection.” I have heard tell that because the lgbts are not included in Indiana’s civil rights law that gays can’t even get a drink of water at the local bar. I hear tell that tax accountants are turning them away. OH THE HUMANITY!

          • GW

            Haven’t heard that one. Doesn’t make sense. Doesn’t change the facts on the ground either.

    • GG

      The gay lobby is back.

      • GW

        “The gay lobby”

        • GG

          The immoral who seek to destroy all that is good.

        • Objectivetruth

          So cute…..how you mimic like a spoiled seven year old. It’s almost adorable!

          • GW

            You can’t establish your honor or even the validity of your position by attacking the opposition.

    • Austin Ruse

      Garsh. I sure am sorry you don’t like my column.

  • Philip Lishman

    The article says “Now take the case of a religious believer being asked to participate in a religious ceremony they find offensive.”

    It is not a question of whether the ceremony offends the Christian, rather that it is, to the best knowledge of the Christian, an offence against God. Whether the Christian is aesthetically offended by the ceremony is not the matter at hand.

    The Christian is trying to i) avoid playing an auxiliary role in a serious sin, which would be willful (though likely lessened because of the legal compulsion) since he knows it is an offence to God, and ii) does not want to help create the circumstances where another person or people will put their souls in mortal jeopardy.

    The practice of the homosexual ‘marriage’ ceremony is a parody of the sacrament of matrimony; in that sense it is (to the best of my knowledge) satanic.

    • Scott W.

      It is my understanding that most satanic practices are mostly parodies of Christian practices (reminding me of the saying that evil never creates), so yours is a fair conclusion. And you are right. It’s not about finding such personally distasteful. If that were the case, bakers and florists would have no leg on which to stand. But it rather what this is is forcing Christians to throw a pinch of incense to false PC gods.

      • Philip Lishman

        Yes. This is not to say we don’t love people who suffer this ‘reproductive dysphoria’ (as I call it). People are usually at their most trying when they need your help the most.

    • Tony

      Saint Paul agrees with you, categorizing it with idolatry — basically, the madness of man imagining God after the phantasms of his own deranged mind.

      We have to face a couple of facts. These people are at best the long sufferers of psychological traumas going back into childhood. They are not well. The thing they do is “definitive,” a constant source of irritation, a need to justify themselves before others; and it never will end. You can’t cure a disease by ignoring it.

      And since the acts are unnatural, those who stand up for them can never command a full acceptance; ordinary people, especially men, even if they pretend to accept them, will still find them at least a little ridiculous. A show of acceptance, however, can be enforced. Nature doesn’t need the full power of the state to shore it up. Unnature does.

      Meanwhile, each individual who suffers the syndrome requires our utmost kindness and consideration, so that we can come to understand what it is that they truly need, and are trying to satisfy in the wrong way.

      • Philip Lishman

        Absolutely. Like King Solomon, we need to ask for the gift of wisdom (2 Chronicles 1:7-8), so that we can answer the questions of others as Jesus answered the questions of the pharisees (Mark 12:12-17), which were not designed to elicit information or knowledge, but to trick him into legally compromising himself.

      • Objectivetruth

        Good post.

      • GG

        Very true. These people demand acceptance thinking it will stop their pain.

      • LarryCicero

        Instead of saying homosexuals “suffer from dysphoria,” I think it would be more helpful and truthful if the words “deranged mind” were used. They tell the doctor what they need instead of listening to a doctor’s diagnosis.(They “need” a sex change or acceptance.) If it is now bigotry to diagnose reproductive dysphoria as derangement, why do we continue to say they suffer from something they want to have accepted and not try to cure it like other mental illnesses that are not accepted? Who would say, “please accept my delusions”?

        • Rich in MN

          “They tell the doctor what they need instead of listening to a doctor’s diagnosis.(They “need” a sex change or acceptance.)”

          A case in point: I have a ‘progressive’ friend with a ‘progressive’ daughter. The daughter became a lawyer and took a job with Lambda (which a LGBTA legal advocacy group). The daughter had a case hit her desk where a man went to his primary care doctor asking for hormone treatments as part of transitioning to being a eunuch dressed up as a woman. The doctor explained that hormones were dangerous things and that he was not qualified to do that. Well, the man did not like that answer and so he brought his case to Lambda to sue his doctor. The file hit my friend’s daughter’s desk, and she advised that the case had no merit and should not be accepted. Well, that really stuck in the craw of the transgender folks. Now she is branded as a hater of transgender people and she realizes she needs to look for another job.
          In a tragic epilogue to this story, the man apparently found hormone treatments elsewhere — and he died. May Jesus look with pity on this man and issue His most precious absolution: “Father, forgive him for he knew not what he was doing.”

          • GG

            The work of the devil is everywhere.

            • mairead conroy

              the devil should be mentioned a lot more…….his greatest ruse is to get people to believe he does’nt exist

          • LarryCicero

            They exchanged the truth for a lie…..and their minds became darkened..

        • Tony

          Larry — Yes, that’s just it.

          Suppose you have a teenage boy who is struggling with his sexual identity. What he immediately wants may be approval of what he has decided to “be,” but what he needs is something else entirely, something that might appear scary at first. But that is not an unusual thing in the lives of teenagers, regardless of what the problem is. So a loving parent will seek to apply gentle, firm, and consistent correction.

          Now, if you give in to madness, it doesn’t make the madness go away. The madness in these cases is born of frustration. Other people are seen to possess something good, which you lack; and you lack it, you’re persuaded, not by chance but by something that feels “inside”. You can’t blame it on circumstances. This breeds what Scheler called “ressentiment.” The person animated by ressentiment is never satisfied. He can compel you to pretend that he is just as ordinary a boy as the easy-going comfortably-masculine kid trotting around the outfield with his buddies before the game, but he knows that it is not so, he knows that you also know that it is not so, and it never will be so. That explains the boundlessness of the desire to hurt, to appall, to offend, to “transgress”. One roll of the eyes, and the whole elaborate edifice of self-deception comes crashing down.

          It also explains why even the slightest suggestion of disapproval is regarded as oppressive. It is like a metal probe touching a raw nerve. These brothers of ours are not well people.

  • CapGen

    After 25 years of passing anti gay laws the tactic is starting to backfire. This might be a record, it took decades to reverse anti marriage equality laws that specifically targeted gays, this bill sold under the guise of religious liberty (supported and pushed by the same individuals as all the anti gay laws) was defeated in just three days! The GOP will be dropping this for 2016 as it no longer works for winning cheap points. Once the SCOTUS rules there will be nothing left for opponents as this secondary line of attack with “religious freedom” nonsense has already been proven to be a third rail for the GOP.

    • GG

      Yea, like Nazi Germany. The pervs are in power. Evil.

    • Objectivetruth

      You’re a Christophobe. A bigot who hates Christ.

      • CapGen

        I don’t hate people over dumb things like this, I just like watching this game play out. This anti gay thing has been used as a low cost get-out-the -vote issue for two decades. Then the world changed and it collapsed back on itself after people realized that marriage equality under civil law was not such a big deal. The GOP never really cared about this, now you just saw them abandon the RFRA tactic in four states in a week. It was supposed to be a preemptive strike before the SCOTUS rules, now they know that the tactic is pointless and carries a huge political cost. You are now playing pure defense and have limited options. The GOP is dropping RFRA bills.

        • GG

          Politicians are like gays both lie and will do anything to win. But, be secure in knowing many decent people still exist and will fight the gay ideology at every single turn.

          • mitch64

            How you going to do that? And if you could why havent you already?

            What is the “gay ideology,” by the way, I truly want to know what your definition is.

            • GG

              Your posts reveal you are lost. That you defend what is unnatural and perverse shows where your treasure is.

              • mitch64

                Your post revealed everything that anyone need to know about you and like minded “faithful,” (i.e in their own minds.) You presume to choose who is lost and who is not..you are God now?

                • GG

                  Why deny the obvious. You support deviant ideology and acts. Is this news?

            • Austin Ruse

              gay ideology is a subset of the sexual revolution, the bloodiest revolution history has ever known. Its supporters will have a lot to answer for….millions upon millions of dead bodies.

              • mitch64

                You didnt answer it, what is gay ideology? As a gay person I need to know what I am supposed to think and you Austin, seem to know.

                • Austin Ruse

                  The gay ideology? That it is perfectly acceptable to have “sex” with someone of the same sex. It is part and parcel of the ideology that you can have sex outside of marriage. the same ideology that says porn is just fine, even healthy. The same ideology that says abortion is fine. It is the sexual revolution that has killed millions.

                  • mitch64

                    Hmmmm, your imagine gay ideology missed a lot of gays so your wrong…(again.)

                    • Objectivetruth

                      You’re “gay”….tell us what you’re ideology is?

      • mitch64

        This is why the right wing religious right is loosing and people are distancing themselves from them. He mentioned the political changes that are taking place, not once did he mention Christ. But you had nothing to do but slap a ridiculous label on him that had nothing to do with what he said and makes you seem slightly hysterical. Why don’t you just scream “witch”!! and accuse him/her of consorting with Satan in the woods?

        • GG

          No, decent people are losing because people reason as you do. That is relativistic and shallow.

        • Austin Ruse

          No they’re not. Polls show the people are with us overwhelmingly. It is the elites who are imposing this on regular folks.

          • mitch64

            Uh, no…and I love how you again go to your “cartoon,” stereotypes.

            Recent info from the Wall Street Journal:

            “Almost six in 10 Americans say they favor allowing gay and
            lesbian couples to enter into same-sex marriages, the highest level of support ever recorded in a NBC News/Wall Street
            Journal poll.”

            In a different story..also Walt Street Journal not even you can consider that a “leftist rag.”

            “In the new survey released Monday, 59% of Americans said
            that they favor same-sex marriages while just 33% said they oppose them. ”

            And here are how things split up and even when there is a push against it its very close.. “For instance, Exurban counties, which are reliably Republican in their voting habits, are essentially divided on gay marriage – 51% oppose it, but 49% favor allowing it, according to data from the 2012 Cooperative Congressional Election Study. And running through the middle of the country, Rural Middle America counties are also divided – 48% in favor, 52% opposed.”

            In Evangelical Hub counties, based around the southern Bible
            Belt, only 32% favor allowing gay marriage, while 68% oppose it. In Working Class Country counties, based heavily in Appalachia, only 36% favor allowing gay marriage.”

            “Furthermore, some of the strongest levels of support for gay
            marriage come from a place Republicans need to do better in 2016: big diverse Urban Suburbs around major cities. In those counties 58% favor gay marriage,”

            So Austin, you don’t have an overwhelming anything (except in sparsely populated rural areas) and it is getting smaller everyday. You are right if you call the rest of the world “elites,” ( I live in a suburb and while we have a very good life I would not call any of us “elites,”) and the regular folk are those people who are Evangelical or Appalachians!

            • Austin Ruse

              Two things. This column and this thread is not about faux marriage. They are about the right of Christians to decline participating in them. Americans overwhelmingly support our right to decline.

              Second, polls about faux marriage are always wrong. In every single statewide referendum about faux marriage, polls showed us losing and in 34 of those elections, we won, most of them going away.

              The fascists have made people afraid to tell strangers how they feel about this issue. So, they lie to pollsters about marriage. We won 34 statewide elections. Your side will win only through imposition of faux marriage by elites.

              But guess what. Such imposition will only breed hatred and not acceptance. Yours will be a pyrrhic victory. You will reap the whirlwind.

              • mitch64

                First, your article is your usual mishmash of comments leading to your usual dead horse topic, gays and gay marriage…

                Secondly, you actually believe the things you write? Really? Polls are not correct because you disagree with them? The polls are wrong because big mean gay people scare poor little people? Keep telling yourself to calm yourself, as more and more people accept gays, gay marriage, etc, If they are that easily intimidated I wouldn’t expect that great victory of yours.

                The only hatred it spawns is in people like you, Austin, who once again, can barely hide your seething anger as you fume and fume against gays and try to stir the pot of people who already believe as you do. Have you changed anyone’s mind from the other side? How will that whirlwind that you threaten (and probably calm yourself by envisioning) happen, when people are changing their minds towards the other side and you impotently sit and fume and write articles to preach the choir?

                • Austin Ruse

                  No, polls WERE not correct in every single statewide race we won. We even won California even though the polls said we’d lose. Unnerstan? The reason is because of the fascists who attack those who are against them.

                  And to accuse someone of anger is a rather juvenile debater’s trick. You’ve never known a more joyful interlocutor than me, old chum!

                  • mitch64

                    Then you shouldn’t hide it so well…”dipstick,” ?

                    • Austin Ruse

                      You’re projecting, Vito.

                • Objectivetruth

                  *Yawn!*

                  Mitch your routine has gotten seriously boorish. You gay guys always claim to be creative, but your creativity is lacking. Same ‘ol same ‘old.

              • Objectivetruth

                A commentator on CNN today admitted that although 70% of the U.S. population says SSM should be legal, the vast majority of that group don’t believe it’s moral, or right. In other words most people try to be politically correct and say “if they want to be married Let em, but I don’t think it’s right.” A strange dichotomy.

              • CapGen

                Then you lost 65 cases in state and federal courts, and are one decision away from a complete defeat. The new wave of weaponized-RFRA laws was supposed to be the next tool for discrimination against the gays. This tactic has already failed and was turned around in a week and setting the foundation for protected status. Once the SCOTUS rules for marriage equality there is zero chance of reversing it. Nobody will care about this in a year, the GOP will drop it has a deadened issue and gat back the job of protecting rich interests.

                • Austin Ruse

                  And that is one of our points. This is not movement of the people. It is a movement of elites imposing a foreign ideology on the people. This will redound to your longterm defeat. You are not convincing regular folks and this kind of imposition only breeds resentment. Bottom line. You have not convinced.

        • Objectivetruth

          Why does Christ and His teachings terrify you so?

    • Asmondius

      yah, we can see how they suffered in the last election.

  • GW

    Mr. Ruse, I thought I would pass on a partial list of some of the phrases that have been used in the Comments section of this essay. I’m curious as to what you think of these descriptions of your fellow Americans (and in some cases, fellow Catholics) that your essay has generated.

    Gay people are described as “thugs,” and part of “the gay lobby,” with a “gay agenda“ that‘s “Evil.” Gay people “suffer from dysphoria” (an interesting diagnosis – wonder if the writer is qualified to make that call).

    Gay people “demand acceptance thinking that it will stop their pain.” (I think the average LGBT person would have a lot of pain to describe, and probably at the hands of someone like that person).

    Opposition to the Indiana law is based on the desire (of gays, I guess) of “forcing Christians to throw a pinch of incense to false PC gods” and/or part of “the madness and the cruelty of the sexual revolution, and the abortion regime, and the program of family-destruction.”

    Of course, references to Nazis are tossed in.

    Dissent is met with “you don’t give a damn about advancing the ‘Christian cause,’” and apparently the “gay activists” want to “force people who disagree with the gay agenda to violate their consciences.”

    This is a partial list, and I’m confident that more is being formulated as we speak. These are, to the best of my knowledge, Americans talking about other Americans. They‘re Catholics talking about other Catholics. I just wondered how you felt about the discussion that you’ve stimulated.

    • Austin Ruse

      I wonder if you have kept a list of the comments made against the Christian pizza maker at Yelp and Google? Do that and come right back.

      • GW

        Raise my hand and make $200K?

        • GW

          …and I’m not on yelp or google. I only participate on Catholic web sites. You know, the ones where we’re supposed to follow our faith.

      • mitch64

        There are terrible comments.. (some of them are hilarious though and make fun of gay sterotypes as much as rednecks..) .though I have a feeling that the Pizza Shop owners are crying all the way to the bank with this…and its a bonanza that just keeps coming in for them. Though I have to laugh at the people who donated all that money for one days closing but, hey its there money.

        However, as my Dad would say, two wrongs don’t make a right. Especially on a “Catholic,” site where the self-rigtheous vitriol flows which actually would be funny except these people actually believe this stuff and mask their anger and down right just scared that the world is changing so much by comparing themselves to Christ himself!

        God help their children and grandchildren who are gay, or any family member neighbor or friend.

        • Austin Ruse

          I do not blame Catholics one bit for being angry and expressing it. They are under severe attack from a cabal of the government, top corporations, the media, academia, the gay lobby…expressing anger is very healthy under the circumstances and it certainly beats the mealy-mouthed call for dialogue by our shepherds.

          • mitch64

            Just admit it Austin, society is changing and evolving and its people on the street that are changing, not some monolithic “corporations” or “cabals” (wow..how sinister..) You like to make it all seem so cartoony that people who support gay rights are “left,” when you see its all types of people and they are attacking “Catholics,” when the majority of Catholics are for gay rights. Also throwing around words like “cabal” is and saying Catholics …..(and by that you mean Catholics who believe as you do) are being attacked is taking the role of the “victim,” that you so often accuse the gay “lobby.” of doing.

            • Austin Ruse

              Well, polls show and so do polling booths, folks overwhelmingly oppose gay marriage. Moreover, at even higher numbers folks support the right of Christians businesses to refuse to service a faux marriage ceremony. Yes, it is almost totally a creature of elites forcing a state religion on everyone else.

              • GW

                And the difference between this issue and racial issues from the ’60s?

                • GG

                  Skin pigment is not a moral issue. Sodomy is.

                  • GW

                    People are people

                    • GG

                      Evil ideology is evil ideology.

                    • Asmondius

                      Hitler, Stalin, Sandusky….

            • GG

              Sodomy is not evolution. It is demonic.

              • Asmondius

                Evolution does not reward homosexuality.

            • Asmondius

              ‘…the majority of Catholics are for gay rights…’
              .
              Hmmm – don’t recall anyone taking votes in my local parish.

          • GW

            “A cabal.” Your fellow Americans and some Catholics are mounting an attack on other Catholics, whose Church’s hierarchy is a bunch of “mealy-mouths.” A fine example of a dialogue.

            • Austin Ruse

              I don’t give two hoots for dialogue. What’s more we are mounting a defense, not an attack. We are defending against a vicious attack on the human person and the family. Dialogue? When we win, i will happily dialogue all day long. Dialogue now means surrender.

              • GW

                That’s great. There’s talk and there’s violence. When the violence comes, are you going to take responsibility?
                …and please describe your “victory.”

                • Austin Ruse

                  False choice. Silliness.So, when someone doesn’t want to dialogue with you, you take it as carte blanche to punch them out? Nice.

                  • GW

                    Nothing false about it, Mr. Ruse. You’re giving your followers no other choice, since the country is moving in the direction of tolerance.

                    • GG

                      No, as the perverts gain power the masses will see what they have done. Do not underestimate goodness.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Typical leftist. Talk or violence. The only choices of the left! Hilarious also that forcing Christians out if business is called tolerance

                    • GW

                      No one I know has been forced out of business. The pizza guy in Indiana is over $200K richer, and he only closed for a couple of days.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      So your rule is its ok to issue death threats just as long as it forces a business to close for a few days? How many days is acceptable?

                    • GW

                      you say there were death threats. Have a nice day.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Actually, they said they got death threats. How many are ok with you? How many days closes are acceptable for you? Seriously? You are fine with the attacks on the pizza parlor and you call these attacks tolerance. How many death threats? How many days closed?

                    • Guest

                      Brendan Eich.

              • mitch64

                You already “lost.” Gay marriage is going to be ruled on, both Indiana and Alabama of all places backtracked on this law, acceptance is growing by leaps and bounds with citizens of non rural areas *(and who would have thought that even in rural areas it gets as high as 30 percent) people that hold your extremely rigid right wing views of this are seen as laughing stocks…corporations are behind this, pro business republicans are telling you to stop, and even the Republicans politiicians are in a blundering tizzy on what to do now.

                So tell me how are you going to reverse the tide? Preaching to the choir here on Crisis, and the 20 people that keep posting here? What are you going to do?

                • Veritas

                  Time and future atrocities, or aberrations, will cause the change, Mitch. This has always been true.

                  • mitch64

                    Mass has had gay marriage for over ten years…what has transpired there that will turn the tide? What horrible things have happened and what societal upheavals have taken place there?

                    • Veritas

                      Have cases of HIV/AIDS increased? According to this source in 2008, they have. http://www.massresistance.org/docs/marriage/effects_of_ssm.html.

                      Children are conceived through the union of a man and a woman. Subjecting children to such a bastardization of the natural law will cause damage to children no matter how much indoctrination through governmental coercion. Observe photo number 14:
                      http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/biggest-consequences-gay-marriage-being-legalized#.db1QRG2o3w.
                      Mitch, homosexual activity has existed since the beginning as an anomaly. The West, through abortion and contraception–both immoral and unnatural–has placed itself in danger of horrible consequences. What will follow, Mitch, will not be very friendly for all of us, and particularly those who publicly advocate homosexuality.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      teaching gay sex to five year olds…child abuse.

                    • Asmondius

                      Fistgate

                • Austin Ruse

                  That’s what all the smart folks said about abortion. The sexual revolution will come to an end. The only thing to wonder about is how many people it kills before its over.

                  • mitch64

                    How did that answer anything?How are you going to reverse the tide? Do you have a game plan?

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Just like the fight for life. Just keep telling the truth. Folks come around to the truth eventually. They will here, too. Christ is the truth and the truth is Christ.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Mitch, take a deep breathe, just say it…….”I’m gay and I’m proud!”

                      Seriously, you’ll feel better…

                    • Asmondius

                      2% or less of the population isn’t a ‘tide’ – it isn’t even a trickle.

                    • mitch64

                      Really, so only gay people are for gay marriage and gay rights? No straight people are for it, no family members of gay people are for it? Really interesting? I would think if that is the case you don’t have anything to worry about…

                    • Asmondius

                      If you are going to refer to heterosexuals as ‘straight’ then you should also refer to homosexuals as ‘bent’. That’s the original nomenclature.

                    • mitch64

                      LOL..okay, call it whatever you want! Though God help if one of your kids has to come out to you.

                    • Asmondius

                      I find it ironic how you wish homosexuality upon my family as some sort of plague.

                    • mitch64

                      You need a reading comprehension class. In no way does “God help,” create a wish that one of your family members is gay (though someone is based on the laws of averages) quite the opposite, I would feel for them being placed in a position such as that. Also, I never implied that it would be a plague, that comes from your own psyche.

                      So, to be more clear for you, God help a gay member of your family as they would have to deal with someone such as yourself. Believe me I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. So that gay family member would have to ignore, fight with you, or totally split from you and most likely would believe that most Christians are like you.

                    • Asmondius

                      Your overly long attempt to retract your original comment is not working.

                    • mitch64

                      Apparently I had to spell it out for you. Again, reading comprehension 101.

                    • Asmondius

                      Blaming the reader for your poor reasoning only makes you look worse in retrospect.

                    • mitch64

                      Say it over and over again, but don’t blame me for your reading comprehension problems, be they a learning disability or on purpose. It only makes you look, more dense in retrospect. Have a nice day!

                    • Asmondius

                      Roger, Dodger.

                    • mitch64

                      Also, nice way to avoid what I said and ignore reality.

                    • Asmondius

                      I reacted to exactly what you stated.

                • Asmondius

                  ‘…corporations are behind this, pro business republicans are telling you to stop….’
                  .
                  Now THERE’S a moral imperative!

          • Objectivetruth

            Righteous anger, totally justified in Christ’s eyes. The Church Militant is fighting back, protecting Christs bride.

            • GG

              The gays are hysterical. Part of the syndrome.

        • GG

          Please stop the propaganda. You affirm grave sin. That you refuse to accept the truth is your own indictment.

        • Asmondius

          Are Catholics attempting to damage businesses owned by homosexuals?

    • Objectivetruth

      Boy, you really need to reread your own posts:

      “The only “whores” in this controversy are the Governor and Legislature of my home state of Indiana.”

      Hellllo, pot! Meet kettle!!

      • GW

        You’re absolutely correct. Glad to hear that you’re condemning both sides.

        • Objectivetruth

          Nope, I’m not.

          You’re just playing a cutesy game of “make the Catholics feel guilty about what they said.” Nice try at diversion, but it doesn’t work.

          Christ called out evil. When Peter tried to admonish Him, Jesus called Peter satan. Christ called the pharasees a “den of vipers.”

          The “gay” community openly mocks Christ and His teachings with their lifestyle and agenda. It is evil and satanic, and needs to be called that.

          • GW

            You can’t establish your honor or the validity of your position by attacking the opposition.

            • Austin Ruse

              An unhealthy focus on manners is the way the left tries to distract us from our mission.

              • GG

                Exactly. They hate the truth.

                • GW

                  Advocating violence, Mr. Ruse? If you won’t talk, then what?
                  And I’m not here to advocate for gay causes. I dislike incompetence as represented by this legislation, and I really dislike polemicists who cloak themselves in religion or patriotism. This argument is solving nothing, but Mr. Ruse is getting paid.

                  • Austin Ruse

                    Falling for your nonsense is the same as calling for violence? Right.

                    • GW

                      I’m only advocating against you making money from this kind of hateful, useless argument. I haven’t argued against RFRA.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Wahoo…i am getting rich rich rich rich; I am like Scrooge McDuck diving into piles of cash!!! Wahoo….

                      By the way, dipstick..i am unhireable in business and government. Getting rich. Right.

                    • GW

                      Congratulations.

                    • mitch64

                      Dipstick??? Maybe if you coped with problems a little better (I have noticed you blow a gasket anytime you are respectfully challenged) and expanded your vocabulary. you could broaden your employment options?

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Blow a gasket. Heck. I am havin’ fun wit ya.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Mitch…..you have a history of being an agitator on this website. Nothing but hatred for the Catholic Church. Get a life…go live your glorious “gay” lifestyle.

                    • mitch64

                      If I “agitate,” you because I disagree with you on an issue, that is entirely your issue, not mine. Its funny that you and others attack the poster instead of creating a coherent counterpoint, and then accuse them of agitating. Where have I posted anything about hating the Catholic Church? Cite on quote where I said anything about the Catholic Church..which by the way, is MY Church and I know that doesn’t jibe with your view that all Catholics hate gays and all gays hate Catholics. Get out more often and talk to people other then posters on Crisis or anyone who agrees with you.

                      I am still not getting the glorious gay lifestyle comments..Did someone post that as it was not me..

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Anti Catholic bigotry = agitator. You’re hear to attack the Church, you hate the Truths of Christ. Your posts for months have been nothing but vitriol against Christ’s bride.

                      Why are you trying to hide the fact that you’re “gay?” At this point why conceal it?

                    • GG

                      Truth is hate to those who hate truth.

            • Objectivetruth

              Look….just come out and say you’re pro “gay” and don’t agree with the Catholic Church’s doctrinal teaching on homosexuality and homosexual acts. Just say that you don’t agree with religous liberty, which the Church has been fighting for in this country for several years.

              Stop the cutesy dance, you’ll feel better.

            • GG

              Honor is established by speaking the truth. You hate the truth. Got it.

    • GG

      What you reveal here is that you do not see the gay ideology as evil. You must think it is godly.

      I sincerely suggest you read the documents of Cardinal Ratzinger on the topic so as to correctly form your consvience.

      Pope JPII called it a new ideology of evil. It is contrary to God.

      The descriptors you list are quite accurate. In our effete culture the truth is rebelled against because accepting it means you must stop doing what you are doing.

      Now, instead complaint about truthful terms perhaps you can start spreading the word that perversion leads to damnation unless repented. I would assume the bible offends you too.

      • GW

        What i reveal here is an intense dislike for political or religious polemicists. What I’m afraid of is violence against LGBT people, teenagers committing suicide, and sexual abuse going unchecked, which is what will happen if we somehow turn the clock back to the 1950’s.
        What I see is talk on a religious web site that’s one step removed from the violence.

        • Austin Ruse

          What I find here is a complacency with all the dead bodies piling up from the sexual left. Weird.

          • GW

            …dead bodies. And the sex abuse crisis coming from the Catholic clergy, which would be ongoing, unchecked, without the opening of our culture we’ve been experiencing?

            • Austin Ruse

              Same thing. Gay men preying on kids. Same thing. Your sexual revolution coming to my Church.

              • GW

                Sexually abused kids who are told to keep quiet, while the priests are transferred from parish to parish. You’re really being uplifting, Mr. Ruse.

                • GG

                  Homosexual abuse.

                  • GW

                    Pedophilia, most of whom are hetero. Although there’s a large gay subculture in the Roman Curia, according to news sources.

                    • GG

                      No, not pedophiles. They were almost all post pubescent makes. That is gay.

                    • GW

                      studies show that it’s just as often heterosexuals who are sick. Make sure you don’t talk about it, though. We want to keep that a secret, no matter how many lives are destroyed.

                    • GG

                      Here is that faulty reasoning of yours again. We are speaking about the homosexual abuse in the Church only.

                    • GW

                      …which needs to be rooted out and eliminated from the culture of the Church. Hope you’re on board with it.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Actually, as a percentage of the total population, the instance of abuse among gays is much higher than among the normal.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Nope.

                      John Jay reported that 88% of the children molested were young boys.

                    • GW

                      …and so let’s not learn anything about that issue. Let’s keep it in the dark.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      …..therefore the priests were homosexual.

                    • GW

                      Better kill all the gays then, correct?

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Why would you advocate that?

                      I say it’s to love them yet because of that love let them know their sinful lifestyle makes God sad. That Christ is a better way than sodomy.

                    • GW

                      Your love equates to hate for them and violence in the streets, at least when “your love” was last the custom in the US, circa 1950

                    • Objectivetruth

                      You are definitely gay. You either have no understanding of Catholic moral teaching, or willingly and consciously defacate all over it.

                    • GG

                      He is a liar.

                    • GW

                      I’m sorry to disappoint you guys.

                    • bonaventure

                      Amazingly, the only ones who are calling for the murder, imprisonment, torture, etc., of homosexuals are the Muslims — which the left totally IGNORES… while focusing their hate on Christians, who simply want to live and conduct their business as Christians.

                      You should move to Iran or Saudi Arabia for a while, work there, observe the society, pretend to be Muslim, go to a Mosque, get invited by a Muslim family for lunch, see first hand the REAL segregation, discrimination and hatred which exists in the Muslim world against women, religious minorities, and of course homosexuals…. You should attend at a “lynch a homosexual rally” organized by the Republican Guards on the streets of Tehran (at which you will be forced to assist and take pictures of, and write a praising report of… because if you take pictures of it and post it on social media with disapproving comments, you would be hanging from a lamp post next)…. Then only come back to America to finally appreciate the real freedom that you enjoy… even when a baker or a photographer refuses to bake a cake for your “gay” neighbors, or take pictures of two sodomites parading as a “married” couple.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Huh? This is a typical leftist response to losing an argument.

                    • bonaventure

                      Your side wants to keep the issue in the dark, because your side actually ADVOCATES for sex between adults and teens, especially adult men and teen boys.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Actually, teen boys.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Actually, overwhelmingly the cases were adult men sexually preying on teenage boys. That, my friend, is homosexuality.

                    • bonaventure

                      80+% of sexual abuse by clergy is homosexual.

                • Austin Ruse

                  The sexual left blames everybody but themselves for the damage they do!

                  • GW

                    Care to describe the damage – eh, forget it; I’m only helping you write your next screed.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      You consider gay priests raping boys to be damage free? Really?

                    • GW

                      Are those priests part of the sexual Left? You should prepare a program so I know who’s on which team – oh, damn, I just helped you write your next “essay.”

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Anyone who thinks its ok for an adult male to have sex with a teen boy is certainly not a traditionalist. I’m pretty sure about that one

                    • GW

                      Me too, I heartily agree. Of course, that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand, unless we’re discussing your writing.

                    • Austin Ruse

                      Except that you asked me

                    • GW

                      I’m sure you’re keeping in mind that I’ve spent the last several hours going back and forth with several people with whom I don’t fundamentally disagree. I thought the federal RFRA was fine, and if they had copied the law in Indiana there would have been minimal resistance.

                      But you and they had to fight, and when i called you on it, I was belittled, insulted, and accused of being demonic, among other things.

                      I’m not young, and I don’t have rose-colored glasses on. People like you like “the fight,” no matter that you lead others into stronger expressions of disapproval. No matter what your writing says about Catholics. I don’t expect anything to change, but you and the two gentlemen who were accusing me of being satanic should keep something in mind: the arc of history bends toward tolerance and justice.

                      For me, I have more important things to do than to argue with you. My dog wants to go for a walk. Have a nice Easter.

                    • Asmondius

                      Dive! Dive! Dive!

                • bonaventure

                  The sex abuse scandals in the Church were generated by homosexuals allowed into the priesthood by liberal leaning (or simply idiotic) bishops and diocesan authorities.

                • Asmondius

                  Sexually abused adolescent boys who paid the price for leniency toward homosexual predators.

            • GG

              You mean homosexual abuse.

        • GG

          Oh, save that propaganda. Intelligent people do not buy your nonsense. I would usually say at this point you ought to grow up, but the gay syndrome stunts growth.

          • GW

            I’m gay? And here I thought I was just trying to help people think. And I appreciate the compliment, but I’m not writing propaganda. It’s flattering, though, that you would put me into the same group as Mr. Ruse.

            • GG

              Uh huh, right.

              • GW

                BTW, I’m an old heterosexual man who’s taking a little time here to call out people like Mr. Ruse for earning money by appealing to the worst aspects of human character.

                • GG

                  You support gay propaganda. Whether you practice the acts or not that is gay.

                  Like support for abortion while claiming it is a valid choice.

                  • GW

                    You support murdering gays and hate.

                    • GG

                      A lie from the demon’s mouth. The father of lies. Keep posting. You keep showing us what you are.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      The more he posts, the more he reveals….

                    • GW

                      …and the more you reveal

                    • GG

                      Yes. The truth sets us free. All Glory to God.

                    • GW

                      I’m hoping it will

                    • GG

                      Good, then repent from support of evil.

                    • GW

                      I’m only advocating against intolerance and hate.

                    • GG

                      No, you support hate and intolerance.

                    • GW

                      Insulting me doesn’t help your position. It makes you look weak.

                    • GG

                      Always that way. They give themselves away. They do not bind themselves to Truth but to ideology and sick acts.

                    • GW

                      I haven’t advocated for anything other than peace. You’re the ones who are calling me a demon.

                    • GG

                      You falsely accuse others of supporting murder. That is a grave sin.

                    • GW

                      I’ll see you at confession, then.

                    • GG

                      Why? You are the liar, not me.

                      I have reported you. I tolerate much but publicly claiming others support murder is beyond contempt.

                    • GW

                      Did you report yourself as well? You accused me of supporting abortion…what is that?

                    • GG

                      I did not accuse you of abortion support. I used abortion as an example to explain your faulty reasoning. Perhaps you should get your parents. Are you 12?

                    • GW

                      Insulting me…and if I was wrong about you advocating murder, then I humbly apologize. I’m ready to discuss things calmly with you, if that’s possible.

                    • GW

                      What else do you advocate? You don’t want them to live, correct?

                    • GG

                      More lies from the demon. Keep posting. You murderer of reputations.

                    • GW

                      …or someone who’s trying to make people think and not buy into propaganda

                    • Objectivetruth

                      I recall your work with Christ in the Garden of Gethsemane, just the other night, on Thursday. Good attempt trying to convince Him that people’s sins are not worth it, don’t buy into propaganda.

                      Didn’t work then, won’t work now.

                    • GW

                      And I remember you as well.

                    • GG

                      The devil does not forget then.

                    • GW

                      Insulting me doesn’t establish the honor or validity of your position.

                    • GG

                      No insult. Your words are consistent with evil. I do not apologize for refuting your evil nonsense.

                    • GW

                      Insulting me does not establish the honor or validity of your position.

                    • GG

                      No insult. You lie.

                    • GW

                      It’s OK to say that. I forgive you.

                    • GG

                      Think? Your posts reveal you cannot reason well.

                    • GW

                      Insulting me does not establish the honor or validity of your position.

                    • GG

                      What insult?? You cannot reason well. Any thoughtful reader sees that immediately.

                    • GW

                      I’ve not advocated against the RFRA. I’ve advocated against hate and the kind of political pornography best represented by Mr. Ruse’ essay.

                    • GG

                      You lie.

                    • GW

                      You are writing from an unpleasant part of you. Don’t worry about it, I’m not taking you seriously.

                    • GG

                      You hate the truth. We all understand.

                    • GW

                      I’m not taking you seriously. I’ve only advocated for…eh, you know what I’ve advocated. For some reason, you guys have attributed all manner of evil to me. I’m just another Catholic.

                    • mitch64

                      LOL, GG is like a broken record….”you lie,” …”you hate the truth,” …”you are evil/lost/satanic,” but never says anything substantial..just his judgement. If this was 1692 how much would you bet that he would be the first one to scream “witch!!” at his neighbor he dislikes.

                      Religious fanaticism is why we have a separation of church and state so these types have no power beyond foaming at the mouth.

                    • GG

                      Truth is not fanaticism.

                    • bonaventure

                      Meanwhile, the only ones who send thousands of emails full of death threats are the “LGBT people.”

                • Objectivetruth

                  Suuuuure…..live a lie, lieing’s easy.

                  • GG

                    A liar from the beginning.

                    • GW

                      That would be news to my family, and to me. I understand where you’re coming from, though. When you can’t sustain your own position, attack the other person’s motives or character. You guys are in a lather because I called out the “writer” who wrote this column. I haven’t advocated against the federal RFRA, only the state and because it was ineptly written and provided a means for some people to discriminate.

                    • GG

                      Perhaps your family does not know you. You have imputed to others that they desire murder. You are a liar.

                    • GW

                      An unpleasant thing to write, especially since I’ve not advocated against the RFRA. I just don’t feel that it’s OK to say such hateful things. You seem to feel it’s OK.

                    • GG

                      Please stop lying.

                    • GW

                      I don’t feel that it’s OK to write and say such hateful things. I’m just another Catholic, and I remember my Gospel. Do unto others, don’t judge, etc.

                    • Asmondius

                      Even people armed with just the Cliff Notes version of Catholicism can do better than that.

                • Asmondius

                  Step away from that tree……

        • Objectivetruth

          Spare us the fallacious drama.

          Question: Why don’t you go bother the Muslims on their sites? They’re trying to prove Newtonian theories by dropping “gays” from ten story buildings.

          But of course, we have to hear the boo hoo chorus from you because some Christian baker might politely refuse to make you a cake for your faux wedding.

          • GW

            Because I’m Catholic and have been since I was born.
            Because I don’t like political or religious polemicists.
            Because we deserve better than this silly argument and we deserve better writing than what Mr. Ruse has produced here.

            • Objectivetruth

              Because you lie, and are a big fan of the father of lies.

              • GW

                Such nice words. Better kill people like me, right?

                • GG

                  More lies. You are a coward and a liar. Shame on you. You do not have the intellect or testicular fortitude to debate like an adult.

                  • GW

                    Insulting me does not establish the honor, or validity of your position.

                    • GG

                      No insult. I called you what you are. You are a liar and coward. Shame.

                    • GW

                      Such a constructive contribution to this exchange. Mr Ruse would be proud of you.

                    • GG

                      Deny the obvious but all can read your lies.

                    • GW

                      Nice guy…feel like a Catholic now? I do, and I don’t recognize where you’re coming from.

                • GG

                  More lies from the evil one.

                  • GW

                    I’m the Devil? News to me…finding a lot of devils lately? I suggest professional help.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Everything you’ve advocated in your posts suggest demonic.

                      Now go bother the Muslims. I hear ISIS is tossing five “gays” today into a burning building.

                    • GW

                      I’m sorry it’s bothering you, but this is my Church too, and this is my Faith too.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      And you’ve decided to advocate against its teachings.

                    • GW

                      I feel like I’m fulfilling the teachings of my Church, one of which is not to judge others.

                    • GG

                      You mean judging souls. Judging words is a must.
                      More confusion.

                    • GW

                      I mean judging, period. I don’t remember hearing that we are to judge “immorral” actions. On the other hand, I do remember “Do unto others”

                    • GG

                      That is a deficient formation you have.

                    • bonaventure

                      “Go and sin no more.”
                      These were words of judgment. Judging the actions of the adulteress woman as sinful.

                      “Repent and believe in the Gospel.”
                      These were words of judgment. Judging the many sinful actions of people as sinful — hence the need for repentance.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Great. Then shame on anyone who judges and condemns the actions of Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Josef Stalin, Osama bin Laden.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      You don’t judge hearts but are called to judge immorral actions. And the “gay” community is trying to destroy the Church.

                      This shows you have no understanding of Catholic teachings.

                    • Asmondius

                      Then shall we release all convicted rapists and murderers?

                    • Asmondius

                      It’s not up for a vote.

            • GG

              You are confused. You appear to not know truth from error or logic from illogic.

            • Objectivetruth

              Didn’t answer my question, did ya?

              • GW

                Of course I did.

                • Objectivetruth

                  Why aren’t you attacking the Muslims with such passionate vigor? They kill “gays” in a very ugly manner. We Catholics love gays but don’t want them to live in mortal sin, or force us to cooperate with their evil.

                  • GW

                    Why would I attack Muslims? I’m Catholic, and if we want to do right we must first attend to ourselves. I’m only giving back what I’m getting from you.

            • Asmondius

              Born Catholic, eh?

          • Guest

            “Spare us the fallacious drama.”
            I can’t. That’s all I have.

        • bonaventure

          “Sexual abuse going unchecked” is what happened when liberals inserted men with devious sexual proclivities (mostly homosexuals) into seminaries and the priesthood. When you speak against “sexual abuse going unchecked,” you are speak against something which your side itself has created.

          The violence is all on your side: ask Memories Pizza to forward you the thousands of hateful emails — calling for rape, arson, and murder — which they have received from the “LGBT people” whom you would portray as victims, while in reality they are the bullies.

        • Asmondius

          yawn

  • The problem with these “religious freedom” measures is twofold:
    1: Despite all the protestations about how they only apply to businesses that provide wedding services (like

    • Objectivetruth

      Hang tough, Chuck, we’ll get to you…..

      Where ya been? The side bets and over and under were you’d make an appearance yesterday afternoon…..around 3:00….

    • GG

      Chuckie, men cannot marry other men. It is a demonic lie.

      • “Men cannot marry other men. It is a demonic lie.”

        Maybe as far as you’re concerned. I’m sure you will never accept the legal reality of marriage equality for Gay couples. But don’t worry, it won’t affect your life in any way.

        • Veritas

          Hi, Chuck. This marriage equality has affected the lives of people who objected to making cakes or taking pictures. So, I am not sure why you would say this. Also, why does the gay to be married couple not just find another baker or photographer? There are many others who are willing to do the job. Thank you.

        • GG

          It affects all of society. Why deny it?

        • James of Clan Scott

          Unless of course I am a photographer who declines to photograph your same sex wedding (& BTW I would also turn down photographing an opposite sex wedding celebrated at a Satanic Temple or Westburro Baptist Church) then Fascists like yourself will see that I am fined or driven out of business.

        • Asmondius

          ‘legal reality’ = ambulance chasers, slavery up until the 19th century, abortion, executions, IRS seizures, etc.

        • When businesses across the country are being fined into bankruptcy for refusing to submit to what amounts to forced labor, it does affect all in many ways.

    • Austin Ruse

      Folks already have that right in Indiana. They are totally free to turn away gay customers right now. Gays are not protected in the civil rights laws of Indiana. So…is there widespread discrimination?Are gays being turned away from bars? From tax accountants? From lawn and garden stores? From grocery stores? To ask is to answer. If this was happening, we would know. What this law does is offer a business a way to decline and then make an argument in court that may or may not hold up.

      Your pants are NOT on fire.

      • DEAR AUSTIN:

        If Gays are not protected from discrimination in Indiana, then WHAT exactly was the purpose of this “religious freedom” bill?

        • Austin Ruse

          Part of the gay narcissism is thinking this was all about them. It was primarily about obamacare and forcing religious businesses to provide abortion drugs. It also became necessary when faux marriage happened because for the first time Christians might need to deny a gay customer.

        • Asmondius

          To protect the religious-minded from the government.

  • Scott W.

    Well, if there are any faithful Catholics still in the GOP, here is Arnold Schwarzenegger declaring that against the power of Mordor there can be no victory: http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/03/schwarzenegger-indianas-religious-freedom-law-is-bad-for-america-and-bad-for-republicans/

    So consider that an engraved invitation to get the Hell out while the doors of Orthanc are still open.

  • elarga

    OK, so I am a faithful Catholic who happens to be employed in the menswear department of a big department store. My specialty is suits. Two guys come up. “We’re getting married and each of us wants a new suit.” Should I tell them I can’t help them because to do so would be to materially assist in an event that I consider sinful and perverse, and an affront to my religious sensibilities? Should the state protect my right to say that, and thus my right to keep my job? Or am I unjustly discriminating against these two customers, and should the law instead protect their right to equal treatment?

    How would the suit scene be different from the scene in the bakery (“we’re getting married and we need a cake”) or in the photographer’s studio (“we’re getting married and we want you to shoot our wedding”)?

    The suit would not have my name on it. Neither would the cake or the wedding photos. The only difference I can see in the three situations is that to take the pictures I would have to actually attend the wedding. But if that is the only difference that matters, then the baker should bake the cake and the clerk should sell them the suit.

    So, could a service that required attendance at the event itself possibly qualify for protection while a service that didn’t require attendance be considered exempt from protection?

    • Veritas

      “…could a service that required attendance at the event itself possibly qualify for protection while a service that didn’t require attendance be considered exempt from protection?”
      That seems to be the case.
      The problem is, what is one man’s protection is another man’s claim to discrimination.
      What do you think?

      • Carl

        “attendance” is not a public accommodation
        Weddings are not a public accommodation.

        Where in the US Constitution is it enshrined that government can force physical participation? Except for Article 1 Section 8 raise and support armies.

        The right to free expression and private property is enshrined in the Bill of Rights

        • Veritas

          I do not make that case, but only raise a question. Not being legally trained or a constitution expert, I welcome other people’s comments.
          Was the photographer sued? On what grounds?

          • Carl

            A photographer should not be compelled to act against his conscience (participate).

            So a Christian can avoid military service but be compelled to serve at a homosexual wedding? With what twisted logic?

            • Veritas

              I want to understand you correctly. Elarga asked if attending the wedding violates his/her rights. You said, yes. The court in New Mexico disagreed.

              • Veritas
              • Carl

                The Supreme Court justified slavery in the 19th Century….
                The Supreme Court justified abortion in 1972….
                God’s law or man’s law. Who do you follow?

                • Veritas

                  We agree on which law must be followed. My wording to Elarga regarding “protection” and “discrimination” needs to change. I separated the object of the two terms, thinking “protection” for the photographer, as it should be, but in this case the protection is given erroneously to the one claiming discrimination. I should not have made that mistake. Happy Easter.

    • Objectivetruth

      It’s a possible informal cooperation with evil. If they tell you the suit is for their “gay wedding” specifically, in good conscience I don’t think you should sell them the suit.

    • Carl

      Nice try slick—NOT
      Anyone can buy a cake.
      Anyone can buy a suit.
      Don’t ask, don’t tell.
      Besides it doesn’t matter, you’re NOT an active participant.

      Religious Freedom kicks in when you are requested to participate.
      Can’t be forced to decorate a Cake with two men or cater a same sex union.
      Can’t be forced to embroider a suit with same sex propaganda.

      • elarga

        You’re cheating. Suppose they don’t ask for a cake with two men, or ask for an embroidered suit. Just a regular cake. Just a regular suit. But I know what they are for because they tell me. I’m participating.

        • Carl

          NO. He without sin cast the first stone, you’ll end up selling to no one. LOL What about the adulterer, thief, abuser, unbeliever, satanist, etc.? There’s absolutely no collaboration with the sin with a basic cake or suit. No grave matter and no deliberate consent.

          • Objectivetruth

            The “gay” couple comes in and says they’re buying suits for their wedding, you’re participating if you sell them the suits.

            • Carl

              Corporal Works of Mercy:
              Feed, give drink, clothe, hospitality, care for sick, visit imprisoned, bury dead.
              Spiritual Works of Mercy:
              admonish, instruct, counsel, bear wrongs, forgive, pray for.

              No one is excluded.

              Am I participating in the sin of gluttony by serving cake to a five hundred pound man? No

              If I work for a hospital network that aborts babies, I clean the floors, am I guilty of murder? NO

              But you do bring up another point with “public accommodation” laws that you may not realize. Public accommodation laws have infringed upon our 1st Amendment Right of Freedom of Association. There still remains a right to private clubs but before civil right laws created “public accommodation” laws it was perfectly legal for a Italian Deli to sell to only Italians. Did the Irish sue, protest, and request government intervention? No. They opened there own grocery stores and didn’t allow Italians.

              As a small business I may have only resources to fulfill business orders of friends and neighbors. I should have the right to sell to whom I want. An outsider shouldn’t have the right to buy all my goods leaving my regular customers out in the cold.

              There are many examples of Freedom of Association.

              • Objectivetruth

                Wrong. You don’t understand the concept of cooperation with evil.

                • Carl

                  Jesus was accused of the same thing.
                  There’s a difference between works of mercy and accommodation/support.

            • SnowBlossoms

              How does that work if he doesn’t own the business?

              • Tantem Ergo

                It isn’t so much about owning the business as it is about cooperating indirectly with sin. I’ll admit per my post above it is a fine line.

                • SnowBlossoms

                  I understand that, but as an employee that only leaves one option, he has to go to his boss and explain why he can’t sell to certain people and possibly lose the job. Eventually it will come to this for all Christians.

                  • Tantem Ergo

                    Yes it can come to that. A fair and just boss wouldn’t fire his employee over that, just like an observant Jew who goes to work for say WalMart could reasonable ask “hey I’ll be happy to work any department, just don’t have me oversee the pork section”.

                    • SnowBlossoms

                      Agreed.

        • GG

          I do not see how such an exchange is integral to the wedding or reception?

          What if they wanted to buy socks or shoes?

          • elarga

            GG: Well, a wedding cake is obviously “integral” to a wedding reception.

            • GG

              Yes, a wedding cake is different than socks.

    • SnowBlossoms

      If you don’t own the store/company and are just an employee, you won’t be able to make that call. Most of these cases have been with the owners of the Company. As an employee what you can do is speak with your boss or manager- tell them you are not able to do this sale..and be prepared to say why you can’t do it, if asked. You may or may not end up losing your job… We all have to be prepared to lose everything if we are going to stand for Truth and really love Christ.

    • Austin Ruse

      Such a proposition would probably not be protected by RFRA.

    • Tantem Ergo

      Yes I was in this position with the online department of a major department store chain. We had a lot of “crossers” inquire about how to get fitted for a wedding gown after they “transitioned”. Half the time it was a prank as these inquiries were via chat services. Eventually though I had to out myself to my manager saying “I’m in conflict with this for religious reasons.” She went to HR who said “they (gays) are a protected class”. I am no longer with the company for other reasons, but this was a problem as clearly HR didn’t see me as “a protected class”.

    • Your natural right to freely associate only with whomever you want is the basis of freedom of religion. Now, your employer might disagree with you, since you are not at the store representing yourself, but the store, when it’s up to the store owner and you to decide if this employment relationship is worth maintaining. Neither the owner can force you to comply nor can you force the store to agree with you. You have the property right to your labor as much as the owner to his business.

  • Guest_august

    Gird up your loins Catholics! The days are coming when you can not operate a bank account without accepting the Sodomy Agenda. It is going to get worse.
    It is the Mark of the Beast
    cf Revelation 13 v 14-18.
    http://www.prophetamos3m.com/6.html

  • Margaret Costello

    Hatred is not a bad thing. “Hatred of evil is Fear of the Lord” says Scripture. I hate sodomy and the lie of the “gay” identity. Hate it, hate it, hate it. And that’s a GOOD thing, for sodomy destroys souls, people, families, society and is utterly offensive to God. We need to stop thinking on the level of emo and actually discern the truth about what we say. For all the techno gadgets in our world, we are actually the dumbest and probably most evil/narcissistic in human record. Let’s get back to following objective truth. And if you truly love someone who calls themselves “gay” you will hate their perversion, not go along with their behavior and call them out asap and consistently. God bless~

  • SMC_BC

    Funny you should ask, Mr. Ruse, ‘Louder with Crowder’ took a hidden camera into various Muslim business to find out how Muslims handle a demand for a gay wedding cake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgWIhYAtan4

    • Objectivetruth

      Getting Catholic moral teaching from you Chuck is comparable to my garbage man performing open heart surgery.

    • Carl

      You would be wrong to assume an overweight person is guilty of gluttony! First, there are many medical conditions associated with being overweight including mental health. Second, the first point of gluttony is selfishness, just being overweight doesn’t mean someone is not generous and caring. Enough Priests are over weight and they dedicate their lives to God and parishioners.

      Over eating is really a venial sin requiring the virtue of temperance. It’s really a bigoted comment on your part to infer that an overweight person is always a sinful person.

      Just like the disorder of homosexuality is not sinful in itself, while certainly the open lifestyle and the propagation is.

      Questioning or acting upon someones character without a need to know probably is the sin of calumny and slander. It’s none of your business!

      It is your business if you are being forced to participate in a homosexual wedding!

    • Carl

      The First Amendment is dying…

      The Bill of Rights enshrined freedom of association, free
      speech, and property rights.

      The overreach of “public accommodation” laws written in
      Civil Right legislation is going to eventually kill individual freedoms if this
      continues.

      This whole issue seems to avoidable though, shop owners
      could just say “I can’t help you with that request,” and suggest other shops
      who could. We still have the Fifth Amendment
      which avoids self-incrimination.

      And someone needs to go undercover and expose the homosexuals
      for their hypocrisy as I’m sure they are as discriminating as heterosexuals in
      these type of issues if not more so….

      Ask homosexual small business owners to print pro-family
      signs and posters, build/repair Catholic Churches and buildings, cater
      pro-family events, and the like using undercover cameras. Two can play this game!!

      • Carl

        There’s no cooperation with sin when baking a cake. There is if you add “second time is the charm” when decorating the cake. It’s also none of your business, you have no need to know, if there was an annulment either!

        • My business is my business as much as is yours, which you are free to take elsewhere, AKA freedom of association.

  • Frank

    I find the premise that not having anti-discrimination protections for gay people “has not resulted in widespread discrimination against gay guys… If this were the case, we likely would have heard of it.” rather laughable.

    As someone who has personally experienced discrimination in both employment and housing because of it, I have to conclude that Mr. Ruse’s ability to not hear about it is greater than he thinks it is.

    • You have no right to be employed by a particular employer or to live at a particular house, for neither is your property. And subtracting that right from the owners, as dubiously pleasant as revenge may be, is subjugating them under slavery.

      • Frank

        Please, do explain how it is “just discrimination” for a single male who has no intention of living with anyone or being in a relationship to be denied housing AFTER THE LEASE WAS SIGNED because the landlord objected to the lesee’s un-acted-upon orientation.

        My statement was not in any way that discrimination should be wholesale banned.

        My statement was that unjust discrimination DOES nevertheless occur, and I expect Mr. Ruse does not see it because he is not interested in seeing it.

      • Frank

        And maybe next time instead of inventing immoral positions to attribute to me without basis, you could address my actual words. If I was interested in revenge, I would have publicized the landlord’s name instead of leaving him anonymous.

        I was simply saying that Mr. Ruse is wrong in his assertion that unjust discrimination is rare-to-negligible.

        I am not interested in making the landlord suffer, I am only interested in correcting misstatements about the relative frequency of harm to the fundamental human dignity of devout Catholics like myself simply because we are perceived as “gay” despite neither using that identifier nor acting upon the deep-seated temptations we experience.

        • Frank

          I mean, I’m not even one of those “homophiles” Mr. Ruse spends so much time musing on. I just have a condition I have to be careful not to let run its course, and I don’t like being treated like I’m some degenerate free-love hippy maniac because of it.

  • A J MacDonald Jr

    “Jewish leaders in the media are in large part responsible for American acceptance of gay marriage, Vice President Biden said Tuesday night.

    “I believe what affects the movements in America, what affects our attitudes in America are as much the culture and the arts as anything else,” he said at a Democratic National Committee reception for Jewish American Heritage Month. He cited social media and the sitcom “Will and Grace,” giving Jews a large part of the credit for both.

    “I bet you 85 percent of those changes, whether it’s in Hollywood or social media are a consequence of Jewish leaders in the industry,” he said. “The influence is immense, the influence is immense. And, I might add, it is all to the good. ”

    “The vice president also praised Jewish contributions to science, immigration reform, the civil-rights movement, the arts, the law and to feminism.

    “I think you vastly underestimate the impact you’ve had on the development of this nation,” he said. “We’re a great country because of the contributions and most importantly because of Jewish heritage and the values you brought.”

    Source: Washington Post (May 22, 2013) – Biden: Jewish leaders helped gay marriage succeed

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