Catholicism, Islam, and the Perils of Arguing from Authority

Like many Americans, I didn’t know much about Islam before the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center. And, to tell the truth, even after 9/11 I wasn’t inclined to look too deeply into the matter. The events of 9/11, disturbing as they were, were not quite enough to overcome a certain inertia in me. Neither was the widespread jubilation in parts of the Muslim world that followed the attack, nor the knowledge that Islamic terrorists had carried out similar attacks before—the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the simultaneous truck bomb attacks on U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam in 1998, and the suicide attack on the USS Cole on October 12, 2000.

Was there something about Islam that prompted such violence? Or were the terrorists distorting and misinterpreting their religion? The consensus seemed to favor the latter view, and for a long while I was inclined to go along with it. One of the benefits of taking the consensus view was that it absolved me from having to read the Koran and other Islamic source materials—texts which I somehow intuited would not make for enjoyable reading.

There were two other factors, however, which prevented me from looking further. One was the reassurance offered by President Bush and other world leaders that Islam was a religion of peace. I didn’t know much about Islam, but I assumed that they and their expert advisors did, and so, for a while, I accepted their assessment. The other and more important factor was that what the Church had to say about Islam seemed to validate the consensus view. I was aware that the Catechism of the Catholic Church said something to the effect that Muslims, together with Catholics, worship the one God. And, on looking further into the matter, I found that the Second Vatican Council’s Declaration on Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate) had even more to say on the subject, namely that Muslims “adore the one God,” link their faith to Abraham, revere Jesus as a prophet, “honor Mary” and even “call on her with devotion,” and that “they value the moral life.”

These statements seemed to confirm the prevailing notion that terror attacks had nothing to do with Islam, but rather were the work of people who had thoroughly misunderstood the peaceful nature of their religion. After all, if Muslims and Christians shared so much common ground, the burden of proof would necessarily fall on the shoulders of those few who maintained that Islam was not a religion of peace.

I eventually rejected the consensus view and came to the conclusion that the similarities between Catholicism and Islam are mainly surface similarities which hide irreconcilable differences. I’ve laid out the arguments for that position in my book Christianity, Islam, and Atheism: The Struggle for the Soul of the West. Rather than go over that territory again, however, I’d like to focus here on the fact that the Church’s “position” on Islam remains a stumbling block for countless Catholics. In other words, a great many Catholics refuse to come to grips with the violent, misogynist side of Islam because they believe that the Church has spoken, and has spoken to the effect that Islam is a spiritual kin. Therefore, they reason, the matter is closed.

Consider an online debate that appeared this summer in Catholic Answers Forum about Cardinal Dolan’s visit to a mosque in New York. The debate centered around the Cardinal’s statement “You love God, we love God, and he is the same God”—a statement, in short, which seemed to echo the Catholic Catechism. The most interesting aspect of the month-long thread was that those who argued that Allah is the same God that Christians worship relied almost exclusively on arguments from authority. Here is a sample:

  • “It is dogma that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God.”
  • “He [Cardinal Dolan] has the grace of Teaching Authority. Unless you are a bishop, you do not.”
  • “You are discrediting Vatican II.”
  • “One either accepts Her teaching authority, or one does not.”
  • “This is not up for grabs.”

After plowing through dozens of similar propositions, along with numerous citations of the relevant passage in the Catechism, it was difficult for me to avoid the conclusion that forum participants were relying on the argument from authority because it was the only argument they had.

The trouble with the argument from authority in regard to Islam is fourfold. First, the Church has very little to say about Islam. In fact, the brief statements from the Second Vatican Council make no reference to Islam, Muhammad, or the Koran but only refer to “Muslims.” The same is true of paragraph 841 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which simply repeats the two sentences from Lumen Gentium. The second problem has to do with interpretation. For example, Lumen Gentium states that Muslims “profess to hold the faith of Abraham” but does not assert that they actually do hold the same faith as Abraham. Likewise, Nostra Aetate states that Muslims “revere Him [Jesus] as a prophet,” but does not grapple with the significant differences between the Jesus of the Koran and the Jesus of the Gospels—differences that extend well beyond the fact that the Koran does not acknowledge Jesus as God.

The third problem with the argument from authority as it touches on Islam is that there appears to be some uncertainty about whether Nostra Aetate was meant to be a dogmatic statement. For example, in a May 2012 Catholic News Service article, Vatican Cardinal Walter Brandmuller is quoted as saying that Nostra Aetate does “not have a binding doctrinal content.” Cardinal Brandmuller’s words ought to carry some weight since he is the coauthor (with Vatican Bishop Agostino Marchetto) of a book titled Pope Benedict XVI’s Keys for Interpreting Vatican II. In an October 2012 essay for L’Osservatore Romano, Pope Benedict himself spoke of a problem with Nostra Aetate, observing that a “weakness of this otherwise extraordinary text has emerged. It speaks of religion solely in a positive way, and it disregards the sick and distorted forms of religion which, from the historical and theological viewpoints, are of far-reaching importance.” The most likely target of his observation would seem to be Nostra Aetate’s overly positive assessment of the beliefs held by Muslims and the corresponding lack of any caution about some of those beliefs.

Such caution was not absent from earlier papal pronouncements. The fourth problem with the argument from authority is that those who fall back on it often ignore the harsh assessments of Islam offered by earlier Church authorities. For example:

  • Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basil, 1434: “…there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic Faith.”
  • Pope Callixtus III, 1455: “I vow to…exalt the true Faith, and to extirpate the diabolical sect of the reprobate and faithless Mahomet in the East.”
  • Pope Pius II, papal bull, 1459: “…the false prophet Mahomet”

Or consider what St. Thomas Aquinas had to say: “He [Mohammed] seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure … he perverts almost all the testimony of the Old and New Testaments by making them into a fabrication of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law” (Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 16, Article 4).

For some more balance on the issue it’s useful to look at the 1910 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia. Its multi-page entry on “Mohammed and Mohammedanism” provides a much-needed corrective to the current enthusiasm for finding commonalities between Islam and Catholicism. For example, whereas Nostra Aetate says that “they [Muslims] value the moral life,” the Encyclopedia notes that “the ethics of Islam are far inferior to those of Judaism and even more inferior to those of the New Testament.” The Encyclopedia goes on to say “What is really good in Mohammedan ethics is either commonplace or borrowed from some other religions, whereas what is characteristic is nearly always imperfect or wicked.” The entry concludes with a reminder that Islam is both a religion and a political system: “In matters political Islam is a system of despotism at home and aggression abroad…. The rights of non-Moslem subjects are of the vaguest and most limited kind, and a religious war is a sacred duty whenever there is a chance of success against the ‘Infidel.’”

The harsh language of earlier Church authorities can be excused on the grounds that Islam was often at war with Christianity. The more conciliatory language of Vatican II can be better understood if we realize that Islam’s aggression against Christianity seemed entirely a thing of the past at that time. But it can be argued that the irenic statements of Vatican II have helped to create a climate of opinion among Catholics that has left them unprepared for the present state of affairs vis-à-vis Islam. And the present state of affairs seems to herald a resumption of the centuries old Islamic hostility toward Christians.

Anyone who has read Raymond Ibrahim’s Crucified Again: Exposing Islam’s New War on Christians or who keeps up with his monthly “Muslim persecution of Christians” series will realize that Islamic persecution of Christians is far more extensive than is generally reported. We hear about the more spectacular attacks—the mall in Nairobi where Christians were separated out from Muslims, then tortured and killed; the suicide attack the same week on All Saints Church in Peshawar which left more than eighty dead; the burning of over 150 homes in a Christian neighborhood last March in Lahore—but, according to Ibrahim, “these attacks are but the tip of the iceberg of widespread hostility for and violence against” Christians.

The attitude which says “this is not up for grabs” or “The Church has spoken” has the effect of closing off certain avenues of investigation about Islam. Among other things, it erects a barrier against understanding why these attacks are happening and why they will likely increase.

Editor’s note: In the photo above, a car burns at the scene of a bomb explosion at St. Theresa Catholic Church at Madalla, Suleja, just outside Nigeria’s capital Abuja, December 25, 2011. The Islamist militant group Boko Haram claimed responsibility. (Photo credit: Reuters/Afolabi Sotunde.) 

William Kilpatrick

By

William Kilpatrick taught for many years at Boston College. He is the author of several books about cultural and religious issues, including Psychological Seduction; Why Johnny Can’t Tell Right From Wrong; and Christianity, Islam and Atheism: The Struggle for the Soul of the West. He is also the author of a new book entitled Insecurity. His articles have appeared in numerous publications, including Catholic World Report, National Catholic Register, Aleteia, Saint Austin Review, Investor’s Business Daily, and FrontPage Magazine. His work is supported in part by the Shillman Foundation.

  • Objectivetruth

    Well educated, Saudi Osama bin Laden often cited the Battle of Lepanto and the victory by Jan Sobieski’s Polish cavalry over the Turks outside the gates of Vienna on September 11-12, 1683, as some of his reasons for revenge against the West. Notice the month and day of Sobieski’s victory, no coincidence. I believe Islam at its core still believes it must be spread by the sword. While the Catechism tries to be accommodating to Islam by trying to find common ground with Abraham, Muslim’s around the world continue to act upon the centuries old belief that Catholic infidels must die. It seems the Church is always putting its hand out to Islam in peace and love, and that Islam takes that hand and puts a nail in it. But make no mistake: Islam is nothing more than Catholic heresy.

    • smokes

      The immediate trigger was the Bush Morons placing troops in Saudi Arabia, home of Medina and Mecca. Oops?

      p.s. Our troops are still there. Blithering dunderheads!

      • Art Deco

        The troops were withdrawn in 2002. Over the period running from 1990 to 2002, their number averaged about 6,200. They were not anywhere near Mecca or Medina nor were they concentrated in population centers. They could not have been all that obtrusive given that at any one time the number of expats living in Saudi Arabia is in the seven digits.

        • smokes

          Then I can place 1000 Mujaheddin in the Vatican? Muslims consider all of this part of Arabia “holy”. It was a stupid strategic mistake. We still have some troops there, as needed.

          Those drones don’t all come off of aircraft or aircraft carriers that blow up a Yemeni truck on the Saudi border loaded with lads armed with AK 47′s. Should Shia invade or revolt against the House of Saud, we’ll be there in force, again…and lose again.
          Nice exchange, Art.

          • msmischief

            Ratios, smokes, ratios. How large is Saudi Arabia? How many troopers per square mile? Certainly you can put no more than a proportionate number. . . .

            • smokes

              If it bothers them to have even one infidel they should seek psychotherapy? You tell them they’re sick and twisted. Them’s the facts, ms. Remember the brouhaha about a mosque near 911?

              • poetcomic1

                You are all smoke…and mirrors.

          • cestusdei

            The Obama moron pulled out of Iraq, is there peace there yet? You blame us the victims. I suppose the terrorists will kill you last for your role as a useful idiot. I remember liberals using the same arguments back in the Soviet era, good thing we didn’t listen.

            • smokes

              The point, of course, is that we shouldn’t have gone IN.

              We lost, you know.

              • cestusdei

                Bush won. Obama lost it. At least when we were there we could kill the terrorists on ground favorable to us. Now Obama is losing Afghanistan. Losing the war on Islamic terrorism will not yield anything good.

              • Art Deco

                We lost to whom?

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Pope Francis would just make them sandwiches.

      • msmischief

        Their English language propaganda states it’s because of those troops.

        Their Arabic language propaganda states that fighting infidels until they submit is the duty of all Muslims, regardless of any lack of provocation.

        • smokes

          Both versions seem to instill blood lust in them. Many of their assassins have said they murder because of the troops. As the lady says, “What difference does it make!.”

          • john_koenig

            If they were that incensed about the troops, they’d assassinate the members of the Royal House of Saud. Why do you suppose they don’t take that road?

    • TruthWFree

      The Quran, supposedly to a Muslim, allah’s word revealed to Muhammad says that Jesus (Isa) never said He is the Son of God and that he did not die on the cross. These are lies against the Gospels written 700 years after the Gospels. Jesus in the Gospel of John says that Satan is the father of all lies. I conclude that the Islamic allah is Satan. Muslims are allowed to lie (and just about anything else) to further Islam. Jihad (murder) in the way of allah is the highest act that a Muslim can do to achieve Islamic heaven per Muhammad in the Hadiths. I believe the religion (really a political ideology in the guise of a religion) is a clever concoction prepared by Satan to fool humans. In Sura 9-5, the Quran (remember, supposedly allah’s word) calls for “slaying pagans with every strategem of war” and in Sura 9-29 to “fight people of the book (Bible, Christians and Jews) until we are subdued” and in 2-193 to “fight until the religion is supreme”. The Islamic terrorists are doing what their false god allah tell them to do in the Quran (possibly Muhammad’s made up god?…it seems there had to be a sinister supernatural force to keep Islam going 1400 years. And GW Bush and some of the Church leaders you mention have done us a great injustice by making statements from athority with ignorance as to the real nature of Islam. Barack Hussein Obama has said that “the future does not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam”. I’d say we have a Muslim in the White House or a person in league with Satan. People are becoming educated on this evil and Obama panders to Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood. I believe he knows what he is doing.

      • smokes

        His father was a communist and so was his mentor, Frank Marshall Davis.

        He’s no Muslim.

        • Adam__Baum

          No, he’s an autotheist with Muslim sympathies. Remember the comment about the sweetest sound in the world? There’s lots of quotes like that. Now that could be a product of his xenophila, but who knows?

      • msmischief

        According to the Hadith, after Mohammed uttered and disowned the “Satanic verses,” he said that he was consoled by a message that all prophets uttered false prophecies inspired by Satan.

        • TruthWFree

          He got all sorts of consoling messages from Allah to remedy his failings like when he lusted after his adopted son’s wife Zaynab and allah gave her to him and allowed the adopted son to divorse her. And then there is abrogation which allowed him (or allah) to come up with another verse that was better than and superceded the first. Amazing inconsistancies from this allah god, wouldn’t you say?

    • TruthWFree

      One more point; Muhammad thought that he was possessed on his first revelation in 610 AD. His wife Khadija convinced him otherwise (kinda like Eve and Adam in the Garden with Satan and the Apple?). Later when he was negotiating with the Meccans (and he did not have power over them), he agreed to two other gods beside his allah. Later he said that Satan had tricked him on those verses or revelations (This insired Salmon Rhusdie’s Satanic Verses). My point here is that I believe the ENTIRE Quran is Satan’s revelation to his false prophet Muhammad.

    • TruthWFree

      I have one more point on Islam’s claim to be an Abrahamic religion. Abraham and Ishmael existed some 2100 years before Christ and Muhammad was born in 570 AD. During that 2600 year interval the Arabs worshipped all sorts of gods. They have no traceable lineage (genealogy) to Abraham and I feel that is another lie they propagate to make us believe it. Yes Ismael may have wandered off the Arabian Peninsula but as I said, there never was any real documented connection to Abraham as the Jews have in the Bible and as there is in the Gospels to Jesus. Just another of Satan’s lies in my opinion.

    • smokes

      They will likely murder 100 Christians this day. The rapes don’t even count, nor do the church arsons.

  • plb5678

    We Christians are at war with islam, and we’re losing. if islam were to lay down their weapons just think of the peace that could be had. But until then Christians will continue to die, islam will continue to destroy, islam will try to institute sharia law where it can. The world needs to wake up and stop kowtowing to anything islam. There is no peace where islam comes. But we do have the greatest weapon at our disposal-the Gospel of Jesus Christ, a True God of peace and love. We must reach the muslims with His message so that they will come to Him and find true peace. Pray.

    • smokes

      Politically, I see the Marxists as winning, given their control of China, increasing swaths of South America, the EU and North America.. The Catholic Church is the eunuch in this Communist-Islamic-RCC troika.

      There’s always Hope: As we round the final turn and go into the home stretch, perhaps Old Catholicism will pass Stewball, Barcalounger, Malaise, Man of Muslim War, Consumer’s Pride, Trotsky’s Folly and Smokin’ Grass to eclipse Communism and islam to win the race to eternity! Pocketa, pocketa.

      • Art Deco

        There are no ‘Marxist’ governments in Latin America bar those of Cuba and (in a more attenuated way) Nicaragua. Bolivia, Ecuador, and Venezuela are home to an obnoxious an eclectic populism – neo-Peronist, not Marxist. Nor are ‘increasing swaths’ of South America falling to anything. The Chavez phenomenon has been largely restricted to countries with large inventories of mineral wealth.

        • smokes

          So…it’s good news?

          • smokes

            Does NYC count?

          • Art Deco

            What’s good news?

            Country’s with large inventories of mineral wealth are prone to political/economic pathology. That’s Venezuela in spades. That particular problem has boundaries because countries sitting on natural resource bonanzas tend to be few. There are three or four in Latin America, and that’s all.

        • Marcelus

          quite correct

    • jacobhalo

      We are losing because we don’t have any leaders who will fight back. We’ve had popes who talk about nothing but love. The pope could fight back with words, but he likes to tell everyone how wonderful Islam is.

  • lifeknight

    In my “neck of the woods” everyone is worried about being taken over by the undocumented Hispanic workers…….most of whom are Catholic. The far more significant invasion has to do with the Muslim quest to eliminate the infidels in the West. ( French friends contend that France is all but lost to the Muslims.)

    • somnipod

      The Catholicism coming from central and south America is negligible. They are mainly left wing democrat voters, along with the proabort, homosex marriage support. The will do continued harm to the Church and hard working legal Americans jobs. This is why the democratic party of death wants them so badly. Fyi, the term is ILLEGAL immigrants, not undocumented

      • smokes

        They are moochers and believe themselves superior to Joe American..
        they did eat his lunch, live off his tax dollars and take his job from him, so maybe they are?

      • Joseph

        Actually, that is not necessarily true. Look up the femme lesbian pro abortion and pro gay marriage group attack on a church in Argentina. I see many of those you criticize protecting the church. Remeber, there is a difference between proclaiming to be Catholic and actually being it. The problem is, more Latin Americans need to be educated on the truth of their faith. Unfortunately a lot of them don’t know Catholics are Christians. They can be valuable allies in terms of the faith. If more attempts were made to educate them in the faith. It also comes from negligence of attending mass and proper Catholic schools.

        • somnipod

          Well, I can tell you in south Texas in the parish parking lot during Spanish language mass, all I see are Obama and Wendy Davis bumper stickers. Expain that, and the fact many are breaking laws by being here illegally. The party of death is no friend of Catholicism

      • lifeknight

        I have a difficult time subscribing ill will to an entire group of people. I do have experience with caring for the undocumented (illegal, whatever) who attend Mass and pray the rosary daily. Somehow that isn’t the case with the Muslims! They are a greater threat to our religious freedom and Catholic identity.

        • Adam__Baum

          It’s not the “entire group of people”, it’s a significant proportion.

          There was a time when what you describe as “caring” would have properly been called “aiding and abetting”.

          • lifeknight

            Then I am guilty as charged. Give me Our Lady of Guadalupe any day! The Hispanics who attend Mass in several parishes exceed the rest of the population. Regardless of nation of origin, as fellow Catholics we should have the same set of beliefs and sacraments united under the same Pope. My point is not about immigration, but religious orientation in our country……..but I know you know that! :)

            • Adam__Baum

              Interesting. My Church keeps an “examination of conscience” guide. Among the many things it contains is an injunction that nonobservance of legitimate civil law is a violation of the Fourth Commandment.

              I didn’t see an exemption from that extension extended to violating the sovereignty of another country, so are you advising those who entered illegally not to receive Communion?

              • lifeknight

                The provision of health care to those who have no other place to go is not materially cooperating in anything evil. We do not ask for ID or green cards. The care is given willing from one human being to another. I think that could qualify as charity.

                • Adam__Baum

                  One time, it’s charity, the second it’s enabling.

                  • lifeknight

                    Gee, Adam, I am glad God has made you arbiter of these things!

                    • Adam__Baum

                      As opposed to you? I love how people who wish to engage in civil disobedience always make such allegations.

    • Adam__Baum

      I have no doubt that Islam poses a threat.

      You kid yourself if you think the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS are crossing the border while praying the Rosary. Something like 25% of the federal prison population are ILLEGALS.

      http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/157459-gao-15b-to-jail-unlawful-immigrants-each-year

      I really detest that “undocumented immigrant” stuff. It’s the worse kind of insidious verbal engineering. It’s insulting to the audience and the impeaches the honesty of the person that uses it.

      I will not use the term until politicians start referring to tax evaders as “undocumented taxpayers” and tell me about the need to bring them “out of the shadows”.

      • lifeknight

        My only point is that, at the very least, we have people entering our country who are Catholic. I am sure they are not praying the rosary as they cross the border, but the gap in religious beliefs is far less vast than those who are invading Europe.

        • Adam__Baum

          And these precious few that are so observant, what good is it if they ignore their Faith, so long as somebody promises to reward them for ignoring the law, which of course is the secular left. That is also a threat.

          You might want to consider whether you have a variation of Stockholm Syndrome.

  • Steven Jonathan

    One of the great enemies of truth and a great machine for pro- Muslim propaganda is the university and they are supported wholesale by a massive army of elementary school personnel willing and able promote the contorted virtue of tolerance driven by multiculturalism-
    Thomas Sowell said: “What ‘multiculturalism’ boils down to is that you can praise any culture in the world except Western culture – and you cannot blame any culture in the world except Western culture.”

    This will end badly.

    • smokes

      the intersection of islam and Trotsky-Marxism on our campuses is telling. The communist professors have run the Ivory tower since the 1930′s and use Black Student Unions, Feminist Baby Killing 101; Muslim classes, along with Marxist Theory etc. ingeniously. Georgetown was its first “Catholic” carcass. The Jebbies just rolled over.

    • R. K. Ich

      The Western secularists hate Christianity so vehemently that they would much rather wipe it off the face of the earth with a Pyrrhic victory, leveraging the cultural and militant resolve of the Mussulmen at every turn. The Leftist Birkenstock Mafia is far more dangerous than Islam ever could dream to be.

      • smokes

        Exactly. Our church Fathers were once on to them, but now seem more dreamy.

      • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

        The truly dangerous part of Islam, is their version of the Right Wing Fred Phelps Wesboro Baptist Davidic Army.

        Which of course, our Leftist Birkenstock Mafia welcomes with open arms.

        • john_koenig

          Fred Phelps is anything but “right wing.” He has been a Democrat fundraiser and candidate for decades, including runs for the US Senate and Kansas governor.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Really? I didn’t know that one. That makes his “Davidic Guard” religion even more ludicrous. I can’t imagine that he has been a candidate in the last 20 years, but I’ll look it up.

      • leogirl87

        This is true until the Muslims start taking over. They have more children on average than other groups, and the secularists will slowly contracept themselves out of existence (look at the low birth rates of atheists, one kid or none at all). I believe we’ll have a long period of militant secularism followed by Muslims either attempting to take over or actually taking over. And we can see that when Muslims are in charge, Christians are treated as second-class citizens and so are women. Christians need to come together to protect our country from secularism as well as anti-Christian religious groups. We need to stop arguing with our Protestant brothers and sisters and join together because a house divided cannot stand. Yes, Catholics outnumber Protestants, but we need even more numbers especially since so many Catholics don’t know their faith (e.g. “Catholic” politicians that support abortion).

    • Robert

      Perhaps “the university” simply understands that Islamic expression covers a spectrum of belief, just as does Christianity. Westboro Baptist Church and the United Church of Christ both profess to be Christian churches, but hold to very different views on, for example, gay issues. The same is true with Islam. Not only is there is huge split between Sunni and Shiite, but there is no centralized Muslim teaching. Every mullah can interpret the Koran as he sees fit. “Sharia law” means completely different things to different Muslims. Just as few of us, even those of Old Testament faith such as the Jews, take parts of the OT seriously (I’ve copied and pasted a few bits below), so most Muslims don’t buy into certain parts of the Koran.

      “And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God…” (Deuteronomy 13: 5)

      “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;” (Deuteronomy 13: 6)

      “Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.” (Deuteronomy 13:8-9)

      “Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.”(Deuteronomy 13:15)

      “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” (I Samuel 15:2-3)

      “Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.” (Isaiah 13:15-16)

      “And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.” (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

      • Michael Doyle

        The OT moral law does not change, not one jot. However, you cite historical examples of the OT as if they were moral injunctions. They are not. The context of the literature is historical in most instances and applicable to a particular people in a particular place (God directing a fallen, young, prideful people in a savage land).

        The Koran is all moral injuntion and not subject to interpretation by their own basic dogmas.

        Your failure to make this distinction in interpretation badly slanders the Christian religion and obfuscates the real danger inherent in those who take the Koran in the literary context it was written (an army manual)

        • Robert

          “The Koran is all moral injuntion and not subject to interpretation by their own basic dogmas.”

          This is incorrect, as I explained above. There is a broad swathe of interpretation of the Koran by different Islamic groups. There is no centralized “Islamic teaching”, and there are multiple interpretations of the Koran by different Muslims. Just as some Christians accept every word of the OT as literal truth, including the parts about killing off disobedient children, while others dismiss large tracts of the OT with a smile, so Muslims do the same with the Koran (either embrace it all as liberal truth or find ways to explain why they disagree). If you believe ALL Muslims are fundamentalist literalists, you have no understanding whatsoever of Islam. I suggest you start simply by studying the differences between Sunni and Shiite and move on to talking to modern Muslims about what they understand by “Sharia law” (many believe this to be a struggle for goodness within oneself, rather than anything militaristic).

          • Michael Doyle

            Still missing each other here. The point is the contextual writing of the books themselves. They are fundamentally different literary types (see what I wrote) Those spinning the book to accommodate a mature spirituality are doing just that–interpreting. Protestantism also has 30000 different sects you don’t see them constructing theocracies and persecuting other religions based on straight readings of biblical scripture “‘that they be one’, not ‘cut off their heads where you find them’. (even during the Reformation) and as an aside the historical times need to be taken into account for any serious comparative analysis 2014-2014, not comparing Christianity 1514 with 2014)

            Your continued relativism of religious faiths ignores the authentic ‘in context’ readings of the books. Of course there will be “protestant” interpreters, but the point remains, the Koran is NOT as subject to interpretation as the Bible because of its army manual like literary context. It cannot comport itself to interpretation easily and, I believe, interpretation is in fact heretical in its own book.

            Your viewpoint is intensely damaging to Christians and non-believers who conflate the two religions. They are fundamentally different because of the contexts of their two writings and for this reason have had very different impacts in history

      • leogirl87

        Those were instructions for a particular time and place and a group of people. To anyone who’s studied history and the time period, what God was telling them to do was actually quite merciful compared to what the rest of the world would have done in the same situations. God can read hearts and minds and they were not yet ready to accept the peaceful Gospel of Jesus Christ, so he had to slowly move them in that direction over time. Same thing with divorce: “it was allowed because of the hardness of their hearts, but from the beginning it was not so.”

  • Steve Kellmeyer

    There’s an additional little “gotcha” in the CCC.

    252. Our relationship with the followers of Islam has taken on great importance, since they are now significantly present in many traditionally Christian countries, where they can freely worship and become fully a part of society. We must never forget that they “profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day”.[198]

    “together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day.”

    Both Christians and Muslims believe Jesus is the judge on the Last Day.
    Christians know Jesus is God.
    Muslims do not. Muslims don’t worship Jesus.

    So, when the CCC says this, it – along with Nostra Aetate – is deliberately poking a finger in Islam’s eye, saying in effect, “You idiots don’t even understand that Jesus is God.” Almost nothing the CCC has to say about Muslims is nice. It looks nice if you don’t know the background, but when you think about it, the CCC essentially says the Muslims are ignorant and easily gulled.

    http://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-spirit-of-john-chrysostom.html

    • Adam__Baum

      Right, because if we’re nice, they’ll stop burning churches.

      • Steve Kellmeyer

        Well, we should at least pay the jizya and admit that we are second-class citizens. It’s the only way to get along, don’cha’know.

        • Adam__Baum

          If your original post was meant to be sarcasm, edit it so it’s more obvious. This is the kind of article that will bring out the trolls and shills.

          • Steve Kellmeyer

            It’s cold hard fact. The CCC and Nostra Aetate deliberately mis-represent Muslim teaching – unless you think the authors are so stupid they don’t know what Islam teaches?

          • smokes

            …and the dhimmi-wits.

      • Howard Kainz

        “Both Christians and Muslims believe Jesus is the judge on the Last Day”???
        Islam teaches that Jesus was the son of Mary, the daughter of Imran, the father of Moses and Aaron, and thus the sister of Aaron. Jesus, contrary to Christian belief, was not crucified, and did not rise from the dead, but rather preached the coming of the prophet Muhammad, and at the end of the world will come again to break all crosses, destroy Christianity, and bring about the Islamization of the world.

        • Steve Kellmeyer

          Everything you say is true. But Islam ALSO believes Jesus, not Mohammed, is the judge on the last day. For Muslims, the fact that He is judge doesn’t prove He is God, but it is certainly true that Muslims know He is the judge on Judgement Day.

          For example:
          http://muslim-responses.com/The_Judge/The_Judge_

          • Adam__Baum

            So?

    • GaudeteMan

      Maybe martyrdom is your aim but any Jihadist who stumbles upon this website will be aided by those of us who post our first and last names in our commentaries! Watch your back!

      • smokes

        God is great!

      • Steve Kellmeyer

        Part of giving witness to Christ is giving your name. We are a fact-based faith.

    • Howard Kainz

      My reply should be to Steve Kellmeyer, not to Adam Baum. Technical glitch in the combox.

    • Objectivetruth

      Muslim’s view the God of Abaham differently than Catholics. Where Catholics view God as a “Father”,as in a Father/child relationship, Muslims view God as “Master”, more in a master/slave relationship.

  • Don

    I have a dear friend who is from Syria and is a devout Muslim. He is a very kind and peaceful man but he absolutely rejects my view that Muslim nations should afford full rights to Christians. In his view, if a Muslim majority decides Christians should have no rights, then democracy requires that they have no rights. Oddly he sees no contradiction that the US allowing him, as a matter of right, to practice his faith as a minority here. To me, that speaks volumes about Islam. I may never bring his thinking around . . . but I’m trying!

    • Ford Oxaal

      Keep up the good work. One of the big issues for Muslims is the Trinity. Perhaps you could try this: the two things we understand as infinite are both necessarily trinities: space (length, width, height) and time (past, present, future). Yet space is one substance, time is one quality. Space and time, as is true of all creation, reflect the nature of God (at the most fundamental level, they reflect existence itself). Existence itself, while it must be whole (one) and eternal (unchanging), it cannot be monotone (monistic). And if A and B are identifiable, there is necessarily C, the interface between them. Anything further would be “accidental”.

    • Adam__Baum

      I think you might be overestimating his friendship, kindness and peacefulness. It sounds more like a cold war.

    • TruthWFree

      There is a verses either in the Quran (Sura 5-51) that says “…make not friends of Christians and Jews for they are friends and protectors of one another and who ever turns to them for friendship and protection is ‘of them’. There is another verse I’ve read that may be in the Quran or possibly the Hadiths that basically says that a Muslim can smile and be friendly to unbelievers, but in our hearts we curse them”. I would ask any Muslim that if he does not believe in allah’s command to fight and kill the unbeliever (9-5, 9-29, 2-193 abd others), then he should leave Islam and come to the Light and Truth of Jesus Christ.

    • cestusdei

      He is not kind of peaceful then. He basically is a quiet supporter of the terrorists. He is the problem and should be deported.

  • somnipod

    The more church history I study, the more I truly know that the second Vatican council truly began a new church.

  • Vinnie

    Have children.

    • smokes

      You evil misogynist!!!! A curse hurled from Bella Abzug on you.

  • Paul Sho

    Pope Leo XIII in the attachment to his 1899 encyclical Annum Sacrum refers to the “darkness of Islam”.
    .
    In my humble opinion we need to get out there and evangelize the muslims. That is the Great Commission our Lord Jesus handed over to us:
    “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” (cfMatthew 28)

    • Adam__Baum

      “In my humble opinion we need to get out there and evangelize the muslims.”

      And you propose to improve upon St Francis’ effort with Saladin, how?

      • smokes

        For starters, ban them from America or make each file a million dollar bond to offset their exploding airplanes, shoes, underwear and pressure cookers. Each should have a guarantee from the Underwriters Laboratory!

        Let’s not forget the cover-up of the TWA ground to air attack, either, that Clinton-Rodham could tell you about.

      • TruthWFree

        Your point is well taken but I propose that any “good person” who is Muslim can be convinced that the exhortations in the Quran to fight kill and subjugate are EVILand not from the God of Abraham and that they should leave Islam. Death for apostacy is the glue that holds the multitudes in Islam in my opinion plus the lure of a sensuous Islamic heaven. Maybe Saladin’s god really was power (as I suspect is Obama’s and Hillary’s god) and therefore could not be convinced. Jesus did not go to the rulers to preach his message but to the common people, so maybe St. Francis was misguided in his efforts and maybe the time was not ripe. I go to every article in the news about another Islamic atrocity and post to Muslims to leave their EVIL religion and come to the Light and TRUTH of Jesus Christ in the Gospels. It the least I can do to comply with Jesus’ command to spread the Gospel to all nations. I also pray every day for Muslims to come to Christ. So should all Christians. We should include this intercession at Mass each Sunday. May God’s will be done!…Or Deus Vult!

      • Paul Sho

        At the level of the leaders political pressure. At the level of the grassroots, massive enlightenment campaign to teach them who the Lord Jesus really is.

    • douglas kraeger

      Evangelize the Muslims? I agree in theory, but the mechanics (especially when we “Christians” are having trouble keeping our children in the Faith)? Three simple suggestions. First: A world wide campaign aimed at getting all ministers of all faiths to either publicly join in proclaiming that an essential virtue that anyone must possess in order to be pleasing to God is the desire, and consequent effort, to know and believe everything God wants everyone to know and believe; or for the ministers to proclaim that their faith allows someone to implicitly tell God, “You may want everyone to know and believe more than I know and believe right now, but you can go jump in the lake for all I care” and that person is acceptable to God.
      Second: Expect all ministers to make available the verifiable evidence and related questions they believe God’s answer to will lead all to their faith and to reject all manmade additions.
      Third: Since Muslims are supposed to accept the book of Genesis as inspired by God and they should believe that God must keep every promise He makes to men: We ask them to present any verifiable evidence they have to show that God must fulfill His promise of Gen. 17:20 before He fulfills His promise of Gen. 17:21 and since they can not offer such proof, they will be open to the possibility that God will fulfill Gen. 17:21 first and then when the children of Ishmael have found the Messiah born through Isaac, than God will make of the descendants of Ishmael a truly great nation, a holy nation made up of holy people, far holier than many Christians.

      • TruthWFree

        Simple??? Your third supposition is flawed. They do not accept the Bible because they say it has been corrupted. I do agree that they take certain Bible verses and claim that they prophesized Muhammad’s coming. The entire religion is a LIE and I strongly suspect Satan is the supernatural source.

        • douglas kraeger

          TruthWFree I point out I said “Since Muslims are supposed to accept the book of Genesis as inspired by God” not that they accept the whole Bible. The reason, I have been told, that they accept the Book of Genesis is that is where God promises Abram (Abraham) that He will be blessed and his descendants will be more numerous than the stars or sand on the seashore. And God also promised Abraham that Ishmael would be blessed and would be the father 12 sons and of a great nation. Muslims accept (as Christians also do) the promise concerning Ishmael for obvious reasons, but like many Christians, Muslims do not ask what more can be known by asking the right questions. In evangelization, our best hope is to find out where a person is in relationship to God, what Truth (if any) they already believe as Truth, and work from there. Chapter 17 of Genesis contains the beginnings of God’s covenant with Abraham (where God changes his name) and where God tells Abraham about this covenant. By asking Muslims if they believe must keep all the promises He makes, we are asking if God is Truthful, and they must answer yes on both points or loose credibility with anyone listening. Then the question is; What verifiable evidence do they have that God did not make the two promises I started with Gen. 17:20+21? When they are unable to produce verifiable evidence that Gen. 17 is accurate as we have it, they will be compelled by honesty to either question everything or accept all of Gen. 17 as believable and that includes the part where God makes His covenant with Abraham that God will maintain in Isaac who is not born yet. Then we ask them to present any verifiable evidence they have to show that God must fulfill His promise of Gen. 17:20 before He fulfills His promise of Gen. 17:21 and since they can not offer such proof, they will be open to the possibility that God will fulfill Gen. 17:21 first and then when the children of Ishmael have found the Messiah born through Isaac, than God will make of the descendants of Ishmael a truly great nation, a holy nation made up of holy people, far holier than many Christians. Do you see where starting with what they accept, (Ishmael will be the father of a great nation) can be used to open their eyes to the possibility that God will first fulfill His promise of covenant with Isaac since they will not be able to present verifiable evidence to the contrary?

          • TruthWFree

            Thanks for the detailed explanation. Have you tried your argument with Muslims to any success? My understanding is that they believe the Promise was through Ishmael, not Isaac, and that the Jews corrupted the Book. Abraham was going to sacrifice Ishmael, not Isaac. Muhammad was the corrupter, not the Jews. My simple argument to Muslims is that if they are good people and know about the violent verses against unbelievers, they should leave their religion since they do not believe in killing and fighting for the allah of the Quran. I generally ask them to read the Gospels and leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit. I have NO idea if I’ve had any sucess with this argument, but Jesus told us to preach the Gospel to all nations, and if the Word was not accepted, to shake the dust of the town from your feet. Islam/Muhammad also has the “death for apostacy” thing that is the glue that binds people to this false ideology disguised as a religion.

      • jacobhalo

        The church is trying to evangelize fallen away Catholics. Do you think they are going to evangelize Jews and Muslims? That would be a tremendous step backward with inter religious dialogue. I would like to hear Pope Francis I tells the Jews and Muslims to listen to the teachings of Jesus.I would like to hear the Pope echo the infallible doctrine,”no salvation outside the church? Do you think they are going evangelize Protestants? What would happen to ecumenism?

        • douglas kraeger

          I would use the analogy that if I were to try and convert someone from speaking Russian as their language of choice to my language (English) I would best start where we agree, maybe French which we both agree on. It would do me very little good to speak nothing but English that they do not understand the way I do, we would not be communicating accurately. My point is in any evangelization we should start with those points we agree on and take small steps that we both agree to. This is a slow process, but progress is possible. My starting point is people know that whatever it is that God wants everyone to know and believe, whatever that is, we should be working to know and believe it. We know no one who says, “I do not care if God wants me to know and believe more than I do now, God can go jump in the lake for all I care”, is acceptable to God if God wants everyone to know X items and they know X-1 items. Whereas we also know the person who only knows a “few” of the things God wants everyone to know and believe is acceptable to God if they are working to believe everything God wants everyone to know and believe. People know this, but they forget or get busy, distracted and that is why faith declines from generation to generation. To stop this degradation of faith, all ministers should want to do all they can to remind and exhort the people in the pews to accept the true love of truth so that they may be saved (2Thessalonians 2:10) If we do not get the starting point right, we are building on sand, not Rock, and all evangelization will fail at some point because we are not secure on the basic points, love of all truth vs. no real love of any Truth.

    • jacobhalo

      Why would we evangelize the Muslims, when the pope tells them what a wonderful religion that they have.

      • Paul Sho

        The Papacy in the last 50 years has been a source of severe mortification for many faithful Catholics.

        Consider the fact that, the Church Father, St. John of Damascus judged the Koran to be a work of despicable heresy; and juxtapose that with the images of our recent Popes kissing the Koran then you can guess where we are at.

        • jacobhalo

          Pope Francis says that our conscience tells us what is good and evil. Relativism? I thought the bible and the teachings of Jesus told us what is good or evil.

          • leogirl87

            A *properly formed* conscience tells us what is good and evil. Most people don’t know their faith or grew up with no instruction at all.

          • Marcelus

            Jacob is it just me or you really dont like Francis? Cmon there’s more it than that

            • jacobhalo

              I haven’t like a pope since Pius XII. Since Vatican II, the church has gotten soft. It is not clear in its teachings and they have abandoned some of its teachings. It only quotes the positives from Jesus not the negatives, such as telling the Jews, If you don’t believe that I am He {the Messiah} you will die in your own sins. or Those who are baptized and believe will be saved. Those who don’t believe are already condemned. Why doesn’t the pope tell the Jews at a inter religious meeting the first quote? Why don’t we hear sermons on abortion, homosexuality, etc.? ( I do, because I attend the EF). Pope Francis is the epitome of Vatican II. He is not clear in what he says. As Bishop Fellay said, this pope is 10,000 times worse.

      • smokes

        It’s never worked anyway. Catholics leave the Faith become atheists, Jews leave the Faith to become Trotskyites and Muslims remain murderers.

  • Guest

    Thank you for this good article. It gives perspective that is lacking in much of the conversation on this topic. Your brief description of the CA forum shows that the “soft” right gets it wrong as do many who do not research and study the faith more.

  • publiusnj

    Thanks for the historic citations. I have always been aware that the Church has had its difficulties with Islam. After all it was the Pope who preached the First Crusade after the Muslims threatened to destablize the Christian Byzantine Empire. I am also well aware of other atrocities (such as a sacking of the Vatican during the First Millennium). The citations in this article from the popes, St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catholic Encyclopedia though are of great value.

    Does that history mean the Church in this day and age should not try to define its discourse with Islam in terms of commonalities? I don’t think so. After all, the Protestants also did their own pillaging of the Church in England, Scotland, Navarre, North Germany, Scandinavia and parts of the Netherlands. Yet it is not untrue to say that the Protestant God is the same God as the God worshipped by the Catholic Church, despite our very different emphases. Starting out from commonalities is about the only way any dialogue can ever proceed.

    On the other hand, the man who cooperated with Pope John Paul II to make peace with the Communist World had a bit of wisdom that we must keep in mind in our discourse with the Muslims: “trust but verify.”

  • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

    I’ve examined Islam in great detail, and I’ve come to belief that the common Muslim is about as Islamic as a Cafeteria Cradle Catholic is a Witness for Jehovah. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, so incredibly damaging in Christianity, is tenfold worse in Islam; there is no central authority and the Koran’s view of Allah is as an arbitrary and capricious judge, not a loving, consistent Father.

    Five Pillar Muslims indeed follow a religion of peace; Six Pillar Islamics twist that peace into the peace of the grave imposed by Jihad, Just War. And since Allah is not bound by human reason, the slightest insult may be perceived as an injustice to start a jihad.

    Worse yet is the Muwahiddun, those who follow God alone, like a Christian fundamentalist Oneness Pentecostal- but unlike the peaceful house-church worshiping, trinity denying Oneness Pentecostal, the Muwahiddun might receive a dream tonight that challenges him to start a one-man Jihad against his neighbor.

    This is a very dangerous religion to try to deal with.

    • smokes

      they stole half of the Church’s landmass from the 7th to the 17th century. Now, they’/re coming for the rest….but the communists apparently beat them to it!

      • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

        Yeah, but a modern American Muslim is about as far away from those original Islamics as a postmodern Universal Unitarian is away from the Pope.

        • smokes

          Just don’t interrupt him as he’s sawing your head off.

          Tradition!

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            Americans of any stripe have a hard time with tradition. In America, 100 years is a long time, just as in Europe, 100 miles is a long way.

            I think that’s why America has more varieties of Protestant Christian than any other place on the planet. Tradition means hardly anything to our culture; fad and fashion and the latest offering from Apple computer mean more. Which is very, very, very sad.

    • TruthWFree

      If A merican Muslims are so UN Islamic, why do they stay in Islam? If the country ever got enough Muslims to effect Sharia, you can bet that these UN Muslims would not speak out against it and those that might are going against the teachings of Islam and their god allah. The “moderate” Muslims are the sea the fundamentalists swim in. The religion teaches that Jihad in the cause of allh is the highest action a Muslim can take and those that do not fight “with their arms and their goods” are bound for their allah’s hell.

      • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

        “If A merican Muslims are so UN Islamic, why do they stay in Islam? ”

        If Jehovah’s Witnesses are so unCatholic, why do people consider them Christian?

        “If the country ever got enough Muslims to effect Sharia, you can bet that these UN Muslims would not speak out against it and those that might are going against the teachings of Islam and their god allah.”

        I personally know several Muslim women who speak out against Sharia and claim that it isn’t mandated by Allah. I even know entire schools of Sunni and Shi’a thought that will tell you that Sharia is not compatible with Islam.

        See, that’s the the problem with not having a central authority in your religion, anybody can claim to be anything.

        “The “moderate” Muslims are the sea the fundamentalists swim in.”

        Just as mainstream Protestantism is the sea that fundamentalist Christians swim in. The problem isn’t with Christianity, or with Islam- the problem is with not understanding the full meaning of 2 Peter 3:16. One cannot interpret scripture with no other references and expect to get anything reasonable out of it.

        “The religion teaches that Jihad in the cause of allh is the highest action a Muslim can take and those that do not fight “with their arms and their goods” are bound for their allah’s hell.”

        Jihad isn’t one of the original Five Pillars of Islam, and is not required to be a good Muslim by the majority of Muslims out there.

        But about two hundred years ago, there was a revival, creating Six Pillar Islamic schools of thought. And the sixth pillar is indeed Jihad. And while there are plenty of examples from history for Caliph-based Jihad being a tradition within Islam, Sixth Pillar Islam makes Jihad an INDIVIDUAL mandate, rather than a COMMUNITY protection.

        Caliph based Jihad was dangerous enough. In the first 1100 years Islam was around, Catholicism lost 2/3rds of the known world to Caliph based Jihad.

        But as St. Francis of Assisi found out, the end of Caliph based Jihad is to convert the Caliph.

        Sixth Pillar individual Jihad, on the other hand, is extremely dangerous. The insult doesn’t even have to be religious based. Your dog barking may earn you a fatwa from a neighbor and an IED on your doorstep.

        Do NOT imagine for a second that I’m downplaying the problem with that- or the issue with having a religion based on authority coming primarily from Scripture. It took 5 centuries for us Christians to climb out of the damage caused by sola scriptura- I recommend a 1000 year quarantine of the Islamic world at this time. We can deal with those in the west under standard criminal justice; we cannot deal with 100,000,000 armies all consisting of a single individual with individual tactics.

        • TruthWFree

          Bad apples to oranges comparison on the first. And i do not consider them (JW’s) Christian. They do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God…but they don’t kill anyone for that belief to my knowledge so they are no problem. Muslims who stay in Islam knowing about the hate filled violent verses against unbelievers are complicit with the killers or they are afraid that by leaving they will be killed as apostates. We’ve had honor killings here in America,

          Sharia is allah’s law based on the Quran and Hadiths. The people who control Islam are the ones you need to listen to like the Muslim Brotherhood and the clerics like those in Iran and Saudi Arabia. The weight of these women’s opinion in Islam is like a drop of water in the ocean. Their opinion is not in keeping with the teachings of Islam or the leaders. BTW, you need to follow Jesus Christ’s great commission and bring them to the Light and Truth of Jesus Christ of the Gospels.

          Fundamentalist Christians do not go around killing in the name of Jesus. Islam cannot be compared to Christianity. Islam teaches hate and violence and they act on it. They also are the leaders and have the Quran teachings supporting them. Christ taught love and forgiveness as you know.

          Muhammad said in the Hadiths that Jihad in the way of allah is the highest form of action to get to Islamic heaven. That is the reason they kill for their allah; to get the 72 virgins in Muslim paradise. There’s also some hell fire verses for those that do not support Jihad with their arms or property. Islamic charity has a portion that goes to finance Jihad. Again, the Quran teachings support Jihad. Those that stay in Islam are complicit…they have to believe it’s from their allah…or afraid to ket killed if they try to leave Islam. Islam was spread by the sword (Jihad) from its beginnings.
          St. Francis did not do too good on converting the Caliph, did he? More than likely if he was successful, some fundamentalist would have killed him as an apostate. We’ve got to drain the sea by converting the everyday Muslim to the Light of Christ…the fundamentallists can kill them all if they left Islam enmass.
          What damage was done by adhering to the Gospels and scripture. The Catholic Church got into trouble because it got away from scripture and started selling indulgences to get into Heaven. I have read the Gospels and the New Testament intotal over ten times in the last 10 years. I really do not feel I need anyone to tell me what Jesus taught. I have talked to Priests that I felt I knew as much as or more about the Gospels. Anyway, the Protestant Reformation was to get back to the scriptures and the Catholic church had strayed and the Pope was corrupt at the time of Luther. The Muslims like OBL are trying to get back to their teachings also and that is the problem because those teachings are full of hate and violence for unbelievers. They again want Islam to be supreme as Quran verse 2-193 exhorts (their allah revealed the Quran according to Muslim belief).
          I do agree that the Muslim next door can get the EVIL spirit of Islam and start killing like Nidal Hasan at Ft Hood and the Boston Bombers. What is more dangerous than that is the subversive inroads into our government and the FBI and CIA by Muslim Brotherhood entities like CAIR and ISNA, and Obama bringing Stealth Jihadists into Homeland Security like Muhammad Eliabiary and the like and Hillary’s MB associated aid Huma Abedin. The other concerning issue is the OIC at the UN trying to pass a Defamation of Religion resolution which Obama supports. Islam is the only religion where TRUTH about it is defamation.
          One last question for you. surely you don’t believe that allah and the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus are the same? Allah says in the quran that Jesus never said He is the Son of God and that He did not die on the cross; both lies against the Gospels, plus 9-29 calls for fighting us Christians (and Jews) until we are subdued (Jihad). Jesus said in the Gospels that Satan is the father of all lies. Allah is Satan by my logic. We Christians should do all we can to save good people from this Satanic religion.

          • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

            So Catholics who stay Catholic despite the commandment in Leviticus to stone rebellious children to death are what exactly?

            The American Muslims I’m talking about recognize that the Koran and Hadiths were written for a different time and place.

            We do need to evangelize them, however, and I’ll agree with you on that- their superficial five pillar religion of peace has about as much truth to it as an illiterate redneck baptist trying to follow Sola Scriptura.

            “Surely you don’t believe that allah and the God of Abraham and the Father of Jesus are the same?”

            That is correct, I don’t believe they are the same. Just as I don’t believe the logical Catholic and mainline Protestant Father of Jesus is the same as the arbitrary and random God of Biblical Fundamentalists.

            Islam makes this much much worse- even the relatively lukewarm five pillar Islamics deny that Allah can be held to human reason- their Allah is no better than a random number generator, there’s no guarantee that Allah will deign to make the sun come up tomorrow.

            • TruthWFree

              “So Catholics who stay Catholic despite the commandment in Leviticus to stone rebellious children to death are what exactly?”

              Catholics or any Christian for that matter are Christians because of Jesus Christ of the Gospels. Jesus Chist put an end to stoning when he said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. And we all know that Leviticus is early Jewish (Moses likely) historical writings around 1440 BC. No Jew goes around doing those sort of things today and saying God told me to do it. And yes, I do have a problem reconciling what God commanded in those days with the teachings of Christ in the Gospels. There is NO such division in the Quran. It applies to all times for Muslims just as the Gospels apply to all times for Christians. In fact, earlier Meccan verses from 610 to 622 AD were not violent because Muhammad had no war lord power. Later in 622 AD, when he moved to Medina and started robbing caravans, killing and taking sex slaves, the verses got significantly more violent against unbelievers. One cannot possibly go to one of these violent verses and state they were for the 7th century only. In fact, the Islamic doctrine of abrogation (put forth by allah himself…or maybe it was Muhammad making it up), states that the later verses abrogate the earlier more peaceful verses.

              “The American Muslims I’m talking about recognize that the Koran and Hadiths were written for a different time and place.”

              I answered that in the previous statement. They (your broad statement about American Muslims) have NO credibility in Islamic theology. The guys killing and bombing and those Stealth Jihadists working to undermine our country say otherwise…that the Quran exhortation in 2-193 to fight until Islam is supreme, means that the violent and “make Islam supreme verses” are for all times. If your American Muslim statement were true, and it is not, they are not relevant to Islam’s goals to be supreme anyway, just the sea in which the real Muslim swim. I assume that you are aware of the concept of taqiyya? Muslims lie to infidels like you to avoid letting you know their real intentions…it is allowed in Islamic teachings. Also kiman, which is just part of the truth.
              I do not see how 2 Peter Chapter 3 has anything to do with my question. Paul said that if anyone brings you a Gospel other than the one we preach, do not listen to it (paraphraze). Islam is of course false under that statement, forgetting all the other reasons. I myself am completely at peace with my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and His promise of eternal life…I am ready for His coming. We should all be…life is short. I question anything that does not conform to the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Gospels…and that includes Pope Francis’ statement that an atheist can go to Heaven if he follows his conscience. My first question is why would an atheist want to go to a place that does not exist for him?…but based on jesus teaching…”no one come to the Father but by me”…I’d say the Pope is WRONG.

              • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

                Except, of course, respected Islamic theologians say otherwise:
                http://www.minhajpublications.com/product/fatwa-on-terrorism-suicide-bombings/
                http://www.minhajbooks.com/english/bookid/210/

                http://www.islamagainstterrorism.com/

                And that’s just from a quick google search.

                Does it compare to the truth of the Gospels? NO. But to claim in all the wide world of Islam, nobody teaches against terrorism is false.

                • TruthWFree

                  Theodore, I never said there is no Muslim denouncing Islamic terrorism. If I did, I did not mean to say it. What I said is that Islamic teachings (Quran and Hadiths) ARE the source of Jihad and terrorism and killing. Muhammad said, “I have been made victorious through terror”. He was the 1st Islamic terrorist and terror is rooted in Islam. These other sources can spout all they want but the Islamic texts support the terrorists. There is a good man who claims to be a Muslim, Juhdi Jasser, who argues against the terrorists and who participated with Congressman Peter King on the radicalization of Muslims Congressional hearing. They also had the father of the guy who killed the Arkansas recruiter testifying, whose son was radicalized in a Tennessee mosque. The problem is the majority of American Muslims like CAIR, ISNA, Muslim Students Association, all Muslim Brotherhood fronts, do not give Dr. Jasser any credence. He may as well be a Christian infidel trying to convince them. BTW, I’ve read the Quran cover to cover, excerpted all (most) of the violent hatefull verses on a spreadsheet, and read over 30 books on the subject of Islam (Robert Spencer, “The Truth About Muhammad”; Serge Trifkovic, “The Sword of the Prophet”; Wafa Sultan (ex Muslim), “A God Who Hates”; Ayaan Hirshi Ali (ex Muslim), “Infidel”; Walid Shoebat (ex Muslim), “Why I Left Jihad”; Mark Gabriel (ex Muslim, not real name, Imam at Egypt Al Ahzar University who converted to Christianity and his father tried to kill him), “Jesus and Muhammad”; plus Bill Warner’s statistical analysis of the Quran, it’s 60% political based on the fact that 60% of the verses are adressed to dealing with infidels as opposed to religion (see politicalislam_org (Stastical Islam) and also religionofpeace_com.) plus many other books and articles. If Islamists ever take over, you won’t be facing the people you refer to…you’ll be facing the Jihadist killers, and the people you refer to won’t say a word to save you.
                  BTW, what’s your background? I’m a retired guy who started studying Islam after 9/11 with NO knowledge on Islam and at first thought that Quran quotes were taken out of context…not so…actually there is no context in the Quran, just a bunch of verses by Sura and verse that can be tied back to Mecca or Medina.. Suras are organized longest to shortest and not when they were supposedly revealed to Muhammad. Sura 9 is the last and has the most violence. Sura 9-5 is known as the Verse of the Sword”…”…slay the pagans with every strategem of war…” and I read that it abrogates all earlier peaceful verses according to Islamic clerics. Sura 9-29 says to fight People of the Book (Christians and Jews, YOU and ME), until they are subdued…”. Those two verses cover 99% of Americans who are unbelievers.

                  • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

                    And I never denied that Sixth Pillar Islamic terror is rooted in a certain view of Mohammed’s life- a very accurate view.

                    It was the FIVE pillar muslims I was comparing to Protestants, with their superficial view of the faith.

                    I’m Catholic, but with comparative theology as a hobby, I originally read the Koran in high school, five years before the first Gulf War, inspired by Nostra Aetate. Like the Byzantine Emperor quoted by the Pope, I found nothing good in Islam that wasn’t already in Catholicism. Same with Buddhism, Shintoism, Chinook Shamanism, the occult, New Age, Judaism, and Protestantism.

                    In fact, the Vatican II fathers put it best in Nostra Aetate:
                    The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)

                    Post 9-11, is when I started digging into the Sixth Pillar Islamics- who seem to be the only Islamics that you have researched. There’s a great revival going on, a battle between Five and Six Pillar Islamics right now, that can best be understood through our own experience with the Protestant Rebellion. That took 300 years of violent warfare to work out- that right now Islamics are equally violent is not surprising. Luckily for the most part- incidents like 9-11 are at the periphery of the war. New York was only attacked because of the use of the New York Stock Exchange by the Saudi Royal Family; there have been far worse attacks on the Holy Peninsula itself.

                    By Sixth Pillar Standards, Five Pillar muslims are cowardly heretics, deserving only of death- and are also people of the book. Not unlike what Queen Elizabeth I thought about Catholics, once upon a time. Sura 9-29 covers them just like it covers you and me.

              • osteomed

                What was the Muslim word that describes how the latter verses (the more violent ones) take precedent over the earlier more subdued teachings?
                You’re a breath of fresh air and knowledge of scripture, TruthWFree!! I’m with you.

                • TruthWFree

                  Thank you, sir, for your kind words. I feel that we have to educate people on Islam almost like preaching the Gospel. I feel that knowledge of Islam is like a vaccine againt the cancer of Islam. I do feel that the knowledge is spreading compared to where it was just a few years ago when GW Bush said that Islam is a religion of peace.

                  The word is abrogation. I have read that Sura 9-5, “The Verse of the Sword” abrogates all previous peaceful verses. Robert Spencer’s “The Truth About Muhammad” is a good read on Muhammad and Islam.

                  I have also taken the Quran and exerpted over a 100 verses exhorting violence or hatred against unbelievers. Not sure there’s any way to trade emails discreetly, but if there is, I’d be happy to send that to you.

                  • osteomed

                    Hello TruthWFree, I read almost the entire Qu ‘ran after opening my Med practice and this was only because a close friend of mine suggested I do so, do its blatent violet instructions to its followers. He a Born Again Christian, and I am a Catholic
                    I was appalled at how anyone in the world could believe that the Lord (or their Allah) would be ok w/ its followers lying and deceiving and being ordered to decapitate those who will not accept conversion to this MUDEROUS form of religion. But then I thought, “my thoughts are only arising from my own belief in Jesus Christ and what Christianity teaches US.”
                    But, these people are born into this sham religion, which is truly a complete and total way of life to which its claim to the world of it being a religion, ACTS ONLY AS THE BEARD FOR ITS TRUE INTENT!

                    Peter Hammond wrote a fantastic book about the Muslims and Islam, w/ the colaberation of an ex-muslim who converted to Christianity.

                    I do not know how to send a personal message to you TruthWFree, as we do on Facebook, so I’ll give it to you here…
                    osteomed@msn.com

              • osteomed

                I forgot to also mention in my reply to you below, that I agree w/ the comment you made about Pope Francis’ statement about an Atheist attaining Heaven, if he followed his conscience here on Earth.
                Forget about murder being in his conscience, TruthWFree, which was a valid point that you made about the Pope’s statement, but how could anyone attain Heaven, w/out acknowledging that Christ is the Lord and Savior and is the Son of God! As Jesus taught us, and you accurately stated, ‘no one goes to my Father, but through me.’
                Another thought about the atheist, and them never being able to be forgiven and attain Paradise w/ the Lord God the Father is act that shall NEVER BE FORGIVEN, if so committed, anyone denying the existence of the Holy Spirit.

                • TruthWFree

                  Did you get my email? I thought you had responded but not sure. Couldn’t find your email response to my email. You might look in your spam folder. Thanks.

            • faustinaagatha

              ” Just as I don’t
              believe the logical Catholic and mainline Protestant Father of Jesus is
              the same as the arbitrary and random God of Biblical Fundamentalists.”

              If the illiterate Baptist is baptized in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit so they are Christians and have one sacrament, I would guess. They believe that Jesus rose from the dead and that He is Lord. Much better than some mainline Prots who think he only metaphorically rose from the dead and think Scripture are fables and that God the Father is a patriarchal construct.

              • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

                One out of seven. Except they don’t even have that one, for as Catholicism puts it “ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins”, and most of the Baptist churches practice rebaptism. Sometimes quite often.

                Even those who think the resurrection is a fable, at least have a rational view of God- see Pope Benedict XVI’s speech at Regansburg for more information (you know the one, the one that caused the Islamic world to go insane).

                • faustinaagatha

                  Maybe some Baptists do not have the right formula -that is a problem with protestant churches either groups in both mainline and evangelical realms try to reinvent the wheel all the time. Many evangelical/ fundamentalist church groups do have valid baptism though. On line I have seen RCiA document from the Archdiocese of Baltimore – Amish baptisms, Assembly of God baptisms and many more are recognized. And the all do not believe in an “irrational God”. They emphasize Paul a lot. They try to practice charity. They believe in the supernatural.

                  The reformed and other Calvinist churches did seem to have an unknowable God that is beyond human reason. I don’t know what the Presbyterian, USA thinks on that now. What freaks me out is when I hear of mainliner s(and Catholics , yikes) baptizing in the name of “Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier”

                  • http://outsidetheautisticasylum.blogspot.com/ Theodore Seeber

                    Which just leads me back to my original premise about Protestantism and Islam- extreme forms of Sola Scriptura create a level of chaos that is hard to control.

                    Pope Benedict XVI pointed out in that referenced speech the mainline Protestants.

  • AcceptingReality

    I’m no theologian but it seems clear to me that the CCC’s and Vatican II’s statements on Islam don’t constitute statements on matters of faith and morals. And since they don’t they are not infallible statements. They are opinion statements. One other caveat is that, according to my understanding, no individual Cardinal by virtue of his office necessarily possesses a supernatural grace of Teaching Authority. The normative circumstance is that his teaching authority exists in conjunction with the whole college of bishops and the Magesterium of the Church. Therefore statements made by an individual Cardinal are not necessarily exempt from analysis and criticism, when they don’t represent the clear and long standing teaching of Magesterium.

    • slainte

      I thought all the teachings contained in the Catechism are infallible?

      • smokes

        Only in Baltimore.

        • slainte

          Nice response….good sense of humour!

    • jacobhalo

      There are no infallible doctrines from Vat. II. In fact, there are no new doctrines. It was a pastoral council.

  • hombre111

    A little apples and oranges here. I had to chuckle about this admission about the weakness of arguments from authority, because that is basically what Humanae Vitae is. Again and again, the encyclical asks married people to listen to the wisdom of the Magisterium, and admission that the argument offered in the encyclical against birth control is not very strong. Those who hew to this teaching believe that somehow, the popes have an insight into this issue that is lost on so many other ethical thinkers of good mind and good will.

    • ColdStanding

      So, we are to rely upon the authority of those thinkers that are not the Pope? And, why? Why should we place trust in their reasoning and give it authority over the authority of the Pope? Who, exactly, are they that we should heed them?

      Indeed, it is not an ethical question, it is a moral question. They are, categorically, not the same thing.

      Please list these thinkers, thereby, we may assess whether or not to give any credence to your claims to authority in this question.

    • Adam__Baum

      Peter Singer more to your liking?

    • Guest

      HV taught what was always taught and always will be taught. That is not of the same quality or weight as what the author points out.

    • Glenn M. Ricketts

      Father, didn’t the encyclical also make some very accurate predictions about state coerced population control programs and the debasement of sexuality should it become wholly detached from the co text of procreation? I dismissed the encyclical myself for quite some time – no one made the smallest effort to explain or defend it in my experience – but it is my own marriage and all of the baleful developments since 1968 that have chastened me and made me a believer. I have to say that, from this vantage point, Humanae Vitae looks astoundingly prophetic. I embrace it without reservation.

    • Art Deco

      because that is basically what Humanae Vitae is.

      I think our faux-priest defines ‘argument from authority’ as one he doesn’t get.

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  • smokes

    “Islam is nothing more than Catholic heresy.”Objectivetruth says it well.

    Yet, Islam is ruled by the “natural law”, so there’s a commonality that separates both religions from the secularized and former Western Civilization. Both religions have more in common with each other than the likes of the Democratic or communist parties in different countries have with either religion, now.

    As for the alleged misogyny of Islam, this may be in the eyes of the beholder. Is the ‘right” to abort, or be forced to abort, tens of millions of children not misogyny? Is our sexualized culture not misogyny? Is paternalism bad per se? With illegitimacy the mainstay of population growth in the former West, weren’t husbands once good for something? The birth rates in the former West and the Ummah tell the tale. The former West is dying. Do we want the socialist-communism that cloaks us or Islam? Hopefully neither, as Catholicism re-emerges under Francis around the world. Yet, given the choice, Islam is better than the sterility of atheistic socialism, that is known by so many names..

    • Adam__Baum

      “As for the alleged misogyny of Islam, this may be in the eyes of the beholder.”

      It becomes good deal clearer when you see woman’s face disfigured by acid.

      • smokes

        Or a baby’s head drilled and collapsed with the brains sucked out.
        Most younger women will tell us that America was misogynist before Roe v. Wade and our 55,000,000 abortions. I disagree.

        • Adam__Baum

          Is anybody defending abortion?

          • smokes

            It depends how one defines misogyny in the former West, today.

            • Adam__Baum

              You didn’t answer the question. The West’s misogyny occurred when it began to dismiss Christianity, in Islamic countries it occurs when they start becoming more observant. I’m not looking to leap from one error to another.

        • CadaveraVeroInnumero

          Please, Smokes, don’t attempt to lasso Islam into a theological/cultural warrior of the pro-life cause. How can it be when it’s take on BEING and Personhood is so diametrically opposed to ours. The hook-up isn’t even worth it for agenda reasons. In the end, Islam will insist that we surrender to its theology of the human person – which would be a jihad for sharia. Islam even finds adoption – a major tactic in the “life wars” – as sinful and a flagrant act of disobedience to Allah (snared and enclosed in his Totalitarian Oneness).

    • CadaveraVeroInnumero

      Read “Spengler” (David Goldman) over at Asia Times Online for a dissection of the misconstrued implications of the so-called Muslim population explosion.

      QUESTION: Does Islam have the same “theology” of personhood as Christianity and Judaism? It doesn’t. That is one of the definitive sorting out question. Another one is about God’s transcendence. There is not even a surface similarity. Not, because Islam does not share with C & J their understanding of BEING. (Or, it does so only as a heretical offspring of those TWO great Abrahamic faiths.) In Islam, one cannot speak of Allah’s transcendence as much as his Totalitarian Oneness, inclosed upon himself.

      In spite of various phrasings in the Qur’an, without a deeply shared understanding of BEING, Personhood, and God’s act of Creation, there is no substantial commonality between Islam and C & J. None. Not only “for the sake of peace” is there none.

      • smokes

        Al Qaeda reads ONE book, THE BOOK, then saws your head off after it rapes you and your daughter. Spengler’s nowhere in sight, splitting hairs.

        The demography remains to be seem, but I haven’t seen Planned parenthood in Mecca or Indonesia. In Britain, a man with a few wives cashes a few dole checks. Life is good! Christians? Less than replacement levels, anyway you spin it. that’s why Muslims are a big import to the Christ-dead Europe.

    • gsk

      Natural law takes an odd form under Islam, with polygamy and divorce constantly undermining family harmony. Furthermore, there is no stricture against contraception and abortion per se (they are both allowed) but simply an encouragement to have children, which they value. Islam is not an ethical religion, but a collection of independent rules, which are said to imitate the prophet. There is no ethical thread that connects them, other than to spread the Umma.

  • CadaveraVeroInnumero

    I always head towards the genesis of things: what pieces dd Islam pick up from the sands of Arabia to cobble together its (political) religion (those pieces mortared by tribalism)? The evidence is there that Islam is a double-heresy – Christian & Judaic. Locate those pieces and the method of its cobbling (more, the purposes to which it was put). From that you would not only understand it but, also, how to defeat it.

    Not digging deep we get lulled and fooled.

    • Adam__Baum

      A syncretic mess.

    • smokes

      It’s an impressive heresy impermeable to reform. Think of the Borg. Now, if it somehow made women equal with one woman-one vote, it would morph into our atheistic communism within a decade. Is that desirable? The First Amendment would be abortion, Islam lacks an interest in it’s own suicide that Christianity embraced, as it withers and dies..

  • Adam__Baum

    “Cardinal’s statement “You love God, we love God, and he is the same God””

    Why am I picturing this as coming from the purple of an anthropomorphic dinosaur, rather than red worn by a Cardinal.

    • smokes

      We’re all in our places, with sun shiny faces.

    • TruthWFree

      I wrote the Cardinal about his ignorance and error in that statement and got NO REPLY. In truth, as this article points out, the Church leaders of earlier times knew full well the nature of Islam. The Crusades (1096, 400 years after the first Muslim conquests of largely Christian lands) may not have been in keeping with Christ’s teachings, but the Christian world has been under attack since Muhammad’s successors drove into the Holy Land and Syria in the later 600′s and then across mostly Christian Egypt and North Africa and in the early 700′s conquered Spain. Objective Truth below talks about the defeat of Muslim Ottoman forces at the gates of Vienna Austria on 9/11/1683 and I believe that is no coincidence as he does. BTW, the capital of Muslim Spain from the early 700′s to Columbus’ time 1492, was Cordoba. I assme you are aware of the Ground Zero Mosque controversy and that they were going to call it “The Cordoba Iniative”? These Islamist know their history better than we do and 1400 years have not stopped them…they have ebbed and then flowed again. I have come to believe that the antichrist will come from Islam. Islam is totally anti Jesus Christ of the Gospels, the Son of God.

      • Adam__Baum

        “I wrote the Cardinal about his ignorance and error in that statement and got NO REPLY”.

        You weren’t really expecting one were you?

        “The Crusades (1096, 400 years after the first Muslim conquests of
        largely Christian lands) may not have been in keeping with Christ’s
        teachings”

        And then again..

        http://www.crisismagazine.com/2012/crash-course-on-the-crusades

    • Roscoe Bonsweenie

      Listen to Scott Hahn’s story about his experience getting ready to debate a Muslim about Gob being the “same God”. In a meeting before the debate the Muslim dropped out because Scott kept referring to God as Father. To us, God is Father, to Muslims, their god is “master”. Not quite the same by any stretch.

      • jacobhalo

        The Jews and Muslims don’t believe in our God. Jesus is God and they don’t believe Jesus is God. Jesus said to the Jews, if you don’t believe that I am He [the Messiah] you will die in your own blood.

  • TruthWFree

    Excellent article. I experienced the same “revelation” after 9/11 because I disbelieved negative statements made about Islam’s call for violence against unbelievers. After reading the Quran and over 30 books on the subject, I feel I have come to the TRUTH about Islam. I posted the below info in response to Objective Truth because I feel that knowledge about Islam and its teachings is one of the best defences we can have against this evil ideology posing as a religion.
    **********************************************************************
    The Quran, supposedly to a Muslim, allah’s word revealed to Muhammad says that Jesus (Isa) never said He is the Son of God and that he did not die on the cross. These are lies against the Gospels written 700 years after the Gospels. Jesus in the Gospel of John says that Satan is the father of all lies. I conclude that the Islamic allah is Satan. Muslims are allowed to lie (and just about anything else) to further Islam. Jihad (murder) in the way of allah is the highest act that a Muslim can do to achieve Islamic heaven per Muhammad in the Hadiths. I believe the religion (really a political ideology in the guise of a religion) is a clever concoction prepared by Satan to fool humans. In Sura 9-5, the Quran (remember, supposedly allah’s word) calls for “slaying pagans with every strategem of war” and in Sura 9-29 to “fight people of the book (Bible, Christians and Jews) until we are subdued” and in 2-193 to “fight until the religion is supreme” plus many other violent verses against unbelievers…YOU and ME. The Islamic terrorists are doing what their false god allah tells them to do in the Quran (possibly Muhammad’s made up god?…it seems there had to be a sinister supernatural force to keep Islam going 1400 years.) And GW Bush and some of the Church leaders you mention have done us a great injustice by making statements from athority positions with ignorance as to the real nature of Islam. Barack Hussein Obama has said that “the future does not belong to those who slander the prophet of Islam”. I’d say we have a Muslim in the White House or a person in league with Satan. People are becoming educated on this evil and Obama panders to Islam and the Muslim Brotherhood. I believe he knows what he is doing.

  • from Iraq

    All muslims are terrorists if they observe their religion. it is a diabolic call. when Jesus told the disciples that he has to suffer and die Peter rebuked him (out of love) because he did not want Jesus to die on the cross for our redemption and what was Jesus’ reply? he told Peter ” get behind me Satan” . It is Satan who does not want us to believe in the cross and Islam teaches that our Lord was not crucified. Muhammed is the first born of satan

  • Roscoe Bonsweenie

    Another argument that needs to be mentioned is what CS Lewis says about Jesus being “just a prophet”. We was either God, or a crazy man.

  • Paul Sho

    Generally speaking, in terms of evangelizing in the Muslim world, American Christians have not used their leverage in the last couple of decades for the Lord Jesus. But it is not too late.
    1) Apply political pressure on leaders in the Muslim nations to open up space so that willing Christians can openly talk about the Christian faith in the Muslim countries. As a leverage any country where Christians can not freely evangelize will not be allowed to donate to Muslim Charities based in the USA and other Western nations. This will hit Saudi Arabia and the UAE where they would feel it.
    In other words religious freedom should be reciprocal.
    2) Get simple materials (in simple language) to the grassroots which will educate people at that level about the real Jesus as found in the Christian Gospels. There should be special emphasis on his superb parables and short stories.

  • cestusdei

    Islam is still at war with us. The attacks happen because we refuse to convert to Islam. They will continue until we do or we finally force them to stop. That’s the long and short of it.

  • Jerome

    Just to be clear about facts: according to polling of the Muslim world done soon after 9/11, less than 20% thought the attacks were justified, which is amazing good given the political hostility to the U.S. in some parts of thereof. Polls also show that as a general rule those most likely to endorse terrorism in religious terms are those who are most political in their religiosity; backing terrorism is not very strongly correlated today with Muslim piety in actual fact. Although I don’t entirely trust the author of the following write-up on all issues, the poll data is quite interesting, and speaks for itself: http://media.gallup.com/WorldPoll/PDF/MWSRRadical022207.pdf

    As concerns Church documents, it seems to me the approach should not be: is this doctrine in the strict sense? If not, I can ignore it. Nostra Aetate ranks higher than an Apostolic Exhortation in authority, whether or not even it is doctrine in the narrow sense, or merely touches on it. Yet in dealing with both, especially in the present age that is so anti-authoritarian, any Catholic author, it seems to me, is well advised to engage all such documents generously, and point out first of all the positive aspect of even statements one deems problematic. Once one has done that, one can point out what one thinks they might leave out.

  • smokes

    Obama attacks Christianity at home and Islam abroad. He plays nice with Marxists, Trotskyites and Maoists, though.

  • Charles Martel

    Dear Mr Kilpatrick,

    The press necessarily doesn’t report every atrocity committed in the name of Islam. For a relatively thorough list, please go here and scroll all the way down for a list of the past thirty days plus lists by year. Pretty shocking, really: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Sincerely, CM

  • Charles Martel

    Post just disappeared for some reason. Here it is again:

    Dear Mr Kilpatrick,

    The press necessarily doesn’t report every atrocity committed in the
    name of Islam. For a relatively thorough enumeration, please go here
    and scroll all the way down for a list of the past thirty days plus
    lists by year. Pretty shocking, really: http://www.thereligionofpeace….

    Sincerely, CM

  • Charles Martel

    And the post disappeared yet again. Perhaps taking out the web link and just naming the site:

    Dear Mr Kilpatrick,

    The press necessarily doesn’t report every atrocity committed in the
    name of Islam. For a relatively thorough enumeration, please go to this website and scroll all the way down for a list of the past thirty days plus
    lists by year. Pretty shocking, really: thereligionofpeace

    Sincerely, CM

  • http://www.picsofcelebrities.net/blog/2012/05/08/voice-season-finale Cromulent

    The wages of Islam are bitter indeed. Its been this way for 1400 years.

  • James Patton

    “Catholics refuse to come to grips with the violent, misogynist side of Islam because they believe that the Church has spoken, and has spoken to the effect that Islam is a spiritual kin. ”

    The irony…

  • Thaddeus J. Kozinski

    “The events of 9/11, disturbing as they were, were not quite enough to overcome a certain inertia in me. Neither was the widespread jubilation in parts of the Muslim world that followed the attack, nor the knowledge that Islamic terrorists had carried out similar attacks before—the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, the simultaneous truck bomb attacks on U.S. embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam in 1998, and the suicide attack on the USS Cole on October 12, 2000.”

    Where do you get your analysis from? Are you so sure it was Islamic terrorists? Haven’t you heard of false-flag events and CIA-sponsored patsies and state crimes against democracy? Consider: http://statecrimesagainstdemocracy.blogspot.com.au/

    Why assume the mainstrea media and academia has been telling the truth, or even knows the truth? Catholics must be less gullible.

  • ITBWTW

    Vatican II should, for the sake of souls, the restoration of the Faith and preparation of Christian soldiers, be abrogated. It is not a council of the Holy Spirit, but was hijacked by those who hate the Church. For its fruit bears nothing resembling the Holy Spirit.
    This paragraph about Muslim’s is one more example of this un-inspired Council malfeasance. Another is “Ecumenism”. This not a Catholic concept, unless it means that every one should convert to Catholicism for the salvation of their soul. Instead, we told by pseudo-Catholics all religions are just the same. And the beat goes on!

    • leogirl87

      I don’t think Vatican II itself is the problem. A lot of faithful nuns (CMSWR) have their postulants read the documents of Vatican II and I’m sure other groups do the same. The problem is when it is quoted out of context or misquoted. The media seems to love to do that these days, and atheists love to quote Bible verses out of context to make it seem as if God is evil.

      • ITBWTW

        I wish it were a simple matter of mis-reporting…it is not. So much amending is necessary for those documents to come back into compliance with the One True Holy Catholic Faith, as to make to original documents useless, if not plain wrong in so many respects. The assertion that Islam is a Faith that believes in the same God as Catholics…is a statement absurd on its face. “Allah” is a pagan moon god the Arabs worshiped at the time of Muhammad. Muhammad lied and told his people that it is the same god the Jews and Christians worship. Allah is a demon, not our Catholic Lord and God. so more souls lost to Vatican II errors.

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  • Thaddeus J. Kozinski

    New title: “Catholicism, Islam, and the Perils from Arguing from Naive Acceptance of American Intelligence Propaganda Narratives that Eclipse False-flag Terrorism”

    • Art Deco

      You forgot your thorazine this morning.

      • Thaddeus J. Kozinski

        Oh, I see, American mainstream media and American governmental propaganda do not and can not exist, and the American government and mainstream media always tell the truth. I forgot this! And I forgot that to be a good Catholic and a man of reason is to believe in the absolute truth of governmental narratives and official accounts, first and foremost! Thanks for the reminder to take my medicine. I almost lost my mind for a second! Can’t live without Soma as you know.

        • Art Deco

          It’s a reminder, Mr. “Kozinski”, not to confuse your imagination with current events. Sorry you’re a kook.

          • Thaddeus J. Kozinski

            In the Soviet Union it was considered a sign of mental disorder if one doubted the party line on any event and fellow comrades would accuse other comrades of mental insanity, doing the work of the government for them.

  • Thaddeus J. Kozinski

    Would you mind writing sentences without ad hominem’s in them?

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  • Jonathan Hughes

    Godly judging was not taught. As a result crucifying was favored. Quran does not have godly judging. Quran is Satan speaking. This is God speaking. King James Bible Luke 7:43: 40And Jesus answering said unto
    him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.
    41There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred
    pence, and the other fifty. 42And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly
    forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? 43Simon
    answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto
    him, Thou hast rightly judged.

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