New Film Shows How to Leave the Gay Life Behind

The modern day LGBT movement wants you to believe that the people featured in the new documentary “Desire of the Everlasting Hills” really don’t exist. They are figments of the fevered imaginations of the Christian right.

Meet Dan, Rilene and Paul, all refugees from deep enmeshment in the LGBT life, each finding a home in sexual sobriety and, not incidentally, the Catholic Church.

It is impossible to watch this important documentary without tears, and not sad tears either, but happy ones, tears that come from a joyful movement of the spirit.

These are people who have been deeply wounded by the choices they have made and who have struggled through to a profound peace.

The documentary makes its world premier this weekend at the annual conference of the Courage apostolate in Philadelphia. Courage is the Church-approved movement of same-sex attracted men and women who have decided to step away from that life and to reengage with who they really are and were meant to be.

The readers of these pages and the pages of First Things will recognize one of them—Dan Mattson—from his jousting with the group we call The New Homophiles. He is open about his struggle with same-sex attraction but insists it does not define him. He tells his story in great detail in this new movie.

Mattson was at once attracted to men but at least initially repelled by what happens sexually. Expecting fireworks, his first time was an enormous letdown, and then depression and shame. “What have I done?” he asked himself over and over as he drove back home.

Early on in his search for the gay life, he googled “I am gay and….” The first result was “…and I want a boyfriend.” The second result was “…and I want to die.” He understood this while he was never suicidal; he thought death would be welcome.

He prayed fervently for the same-sex attractions to leave him. Better to be a leper than gay. When the feelings didn’t leave, he turned on God. He still believed but he hated Him, indeed wanted Him dead. God made promises that he could not fulfill. His promises were hogwash. Mattson says he would pass the Cathedral in his town and almost every day “shoot it the bird.”

He dove into the gay life.

Was Mattson ever attracted to women? He went to a strip club and struck up a conversation about gardening with the woman trying to give him a lap dance. She gave him gardening tips that he uses to this day.

Mattson had only one real boyfriend and for a time he was happy. But he longed for a family, for children. On the verge of finally telling his family that he was with a man, Mattson fell in love with a woman at work.

Dan says in the year he was with her he felt once more that God loved him and when that broke up he was tempted to go back online to find guys but he was “convinced the path to peace” was not that way. Quoting C.S. Lewis, Mattson says the boy in pain chooses safety but the man chooses to find the meaning of suffering. Safety for Lewis was turning from God as was Mattson’s, in addition to porn and meeting guys online. And now he has chosen the way of the man.

He sees his whole life has been a search to understand himself and to find consolation and that he has found both in the commandments of God. When he passes the Cathedral these days, the one he shot the bird at, he sees those three domes as a sign of beauty, a harbor that he embraces. Mattson says, “We were made for better stuff than what we settle for. My whole life I settled. I don’t want to settle anymore even if it means a life of being single.”

Where Mattson’s was an immense interior drama played out on the tiny stage of small town life, Paul played his out in the gilded and dangerous playground of New York in the 1970s.

Paul started the gay life at 15 on the beaches of Miami, eventually becoming an international model in New York. He was one of those beautiful people literally hanging out with Cher at Studio 54, drenched in “drugs and sex and disco.”

Paul said Manhattan in those days “was like finding Oz. If you were good looking, it was totally heaven.” He spent much of his time cruising for men. Once in Rome he read in his gay travel guide that the Coliseum was the place to pick up strangers though his plans were foiled because it was Good Friday and John Paul II was there leading an enormous crowd in the Stations of the Cross. His libido was stilled but only for a few hours and he went cruising someplace else.

He says his sexual appetite was insatiable, “frantic.” He went through “dozens, and then hundreds and eventually thousands of men, becoming insensitive to what it means to be with a partner both body and soul.”

Paul was frantic sexually at the time and place where HIV/AIDs first struck and did such devastation. One of his lovers was among the first 900 people diagnosed with the deadly disease. He says, “90 percent of my friends got AIDs and died.”

He moved to San Francisco to get away from the death and dying in New York. He moved in with a man, into a huge house on lots of property in Sonoma County though he did not end his promiscuity.

You might think that Paul worried about AIDs. He did but just assumed, after thousands of men, he was infected like all of his friends. So, he never got tested. But then AZT was discovered, the drug that adds years to the HIV patient’s life.

Going for a test, he says, “I remember so clearly driving down Dolores Avenue feeling doomed and then a ray of sunshine came through the sun roof and I felt peace and comfort. And then I heard a voice, from the center of my being, saying you do not have AIDs because you have too much to do to make up for how you have been living.” He said he knew with certainty that the words were true, and when the doctor confirmed he was negative “was the most wonderful feeling in the world.”

And then he met Mother Angelica.

Watching TV late into the night and early morning after a night of frantic sex, he was flipping channels “and an image came on my television that was so strange.” He called out to his boyfriend to come and look. Together they mocked Mother Angelica, who at the time had an eye-patch and a quite obvious stroke. They called her the pirate nun.

But when his boyfriend left the room she said “something so intelligent, real and honest; ‘God created you and I to be happy in this life and the next. He cares for you. He watches your every move. There is no one you know who can do that.’”

She became his dirty little secret. He would hide her from his boyfriend, changing the channel when he turned the TV off so that EWTN would not come up when it was turned back on.

Paul eventually went into a Catholic Church, hiding himself so no one would see because, as eventually happened, he would lose friends and clients if they knew. Eventually he went to confession and “confessed all Ten Commandments.”

Paul says, “I was happy. I was in Toyland, Never-Never land in New York City. Some of my most euphoric moments was when I was with beautiful and famous people in penthouses overlooking the spectacular skyline of New York City and I have got to tell you, that happiness, that euphoria that would have lasted me a lifetime pales next to when I am taking the body and blood of our Lord in Mass.”

No matter what the sexual left says, Paul and Dan are real, as is Rilene who quite unexpectedly spent 25 years in a lesbian relationship. Each went into a life they found ultimately unsettling, unsatisfying, even repellent, and though sometimes lonely, each of them knows what Rilene says at the end of the movie.

She is talking about what the young Rilene would say about “Church lady Rilene.” The young version of her would “laugh hysterically. All that church stuff is for people who are weak, people who can’t get it together, people who are poor and sick and can’t manage their lives.”

“True enough,” she says. “Here I am.”

“Contentment comes with a sense of peace and well-being and I have a sense about my life that I am safe and I’m home.”

Many in the gay life are desperate to get out. But the world conspires against them. It’s impossible. This is who you are. Those people are lying who say they are changed.

These brave people—Dan, Paul and Rilene—and all those in the apostolate Courage are living testaments to the possibilities that it can be left behind and that what opens up is not just the desire but the bounty of the everlasting hills.

Austin Ruse

By

Austin Ruse is president of C-FAM (Center for Family & Human Rights), a New York and Washington DC-based research institute. He is the author of Fake Science: Exposing the Left’s Skewed Statistics, Fuzzy Facts, and Dodgy Data published by Regnery. He is also the author of the new book Little Suffering Souls: Children Whose Short Lives Point Us to Christ published by Tan Books. The views expressed here are solely his own.

  • Michael Paterson-Seymour

    “The effectiveness of God’s mercy cannot be in the power of man to frustrate, if he will have none of it,” says St Augustine in his letter to Simplician, “If God wills to have mercy on men, he can call them in a way that is suited to them, so that they will be moved to understand and to follow.”

    He poses the question, “Since, then, people are brought to faith in such different ways, and the same thing spoken in one way has power to move and has no such power when spoken in another way, or may move one man and not another, who would dare to affirm that God has no method of calling whereby even Esau might have applied his mind and yoked his will to the faith in which Jacob was justified… Who would dare to affirm that the Omnipotent lacked a method of persuading even Esau to believe?”

    So Scripture says, “: “I will have mercy on whom I will, and I will be merciful to whom it shall please Me” (Exod. 33:19).

    • ColdStanding

      What is that I sniff? Ah, William. William of Ockham. Nominalism. Tsk, tsk, Michael. Do you think that no one will see the flip-side entailment of your quote?* Surely you are a subscriber to the program of using the words of Tradition against the “dated” traditionalist position. Disabuse me of this heart-rending conclusion, I beg you.

      God desirest not the death of the sinner. He has given the means of salvation to all men. He has made known throughout all the lands the means by which He would extend His Mercy. Therefore, it is God’s will that all men be saved. However, God has first willed that man’s will be free to make the choice. God’s will is that His actions show forth to His Greatest Glory. What He has willed He will not un-will. He has give sufficient Grace to all men for their salvation. All men have the grace, at this very moment.

      Therefore, while it is within God’s power to save all men regardless of their state – in the nominalist sense of He could create a universe where this was His Holy will – He has so willed it that those that would be saved must hear His Saving Words and assent as a free act of the will.

      He is merciful to whom it pleases Him to be. It pleases Him to extend Mercy – through the Holy Church He founded – to all men.

      *That we should not speak against manifest evil and sin because God will save whom He will.

      • CadaveraVeroInnumero

        Now discuss the irreducible fact of Man’s creation – Free Will. You attempted. But, in the end, did you construct Divine Mercy as a totalitarian act of God? When Love is so universal (that is, irresistible) can it truly be received?

        • ColdStanding

          Ah, no, the irreducible fact of Man’s creation is not the Holy Truth: Free Will, important as that is. The irreducible fact is that Man is created by a creator, who is God. If you place Free Will as the principle, as in the first thing, you will distort the teaching. Watch how the word order falls…

          Man is made; is a created being and all created things have a creator…with free will.

          Man’s nature as created being is of greater importance, the fact which can not be further broken down, i. e. the principle, than the free will.

          It is said that the redemption of one sinner is a greater act of God than the making of the entire universe.

          • Michael Paterson-Seymour

            “Why, asks St Augustine, “will you strive against the words of Him who says, “I have prayed for you, Peter, that your faith fail not”? Luke 22:32 Will you dare to say that even when Christ prayed that Peter’s faith might not fail, it would still have failed if Peter had willed it to fail; that is, if he had been unwilling that it should continue even to the end? As if Peter could in any measure will otherwise than Christ had asked for him that he might will. … When, then, He prayed that Peter’s faith should not fail, what was it that He asked for, but that in his faith Peter should have a most free, strong, invincible, persevering will! Behold to what an extent the freedom of the will is defended in accordance with the grace of God, not in opposition to it; because the human will does not attain grace by freedom, but rather attains freedom by grace, and a delightful constancy, and an insuperable fortitude that it may persevere.” [De Correptione et Gratia 17]

            • ColdStanding

              The fault lays in how it is you’d have this freedom-granting grace be obtained. This freedom-giving grace is not obtained in any way other than by the sacraments. This the means by which it is delivered. The Sacraments ARE the giving. They ARE the prayer of Jesus Christ to His Heavenly Father answered.

              I fault you because by this quote you allow the truth to remain in potential suggesting that it has not somehow been actualized. That Peter’s faith not fail IS the Church founded by Christ upon Peter. God does not will that something happen and not at the same time provide a means by which His will is actualized.

          • CadaveraVeroInnumero

            Your reply missed the point. But,let me restate that first sentence: “Now discuss the irreducible fact of God’s creation of Men – of which Free Will goes to the heart (core, fiber, warp & woof) of God’s act.”

            The further point being, the Divine Act – and the Divine Love meshed with it – is redeuced without Free Will’s warp & woof.

            Cannot speak of Mankind’s “creation . . . which can not be further broken down” without Free Will being – how should we put it – an aspect of why not.

            All this, by the way, pertains to the present issue of homosexuality with its foreign, alien character which desperately seeks to attached onto the principle (the fact0 of Free Will, but can not. Or does with monstrous disto9rtion and disorder.

      • Michael Paterson-Seymour

        Pêre Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P explains this very well. Quoting the Council of Toucy, “For nothing is done in heaven or on earth, except what God either graciously does Himself or permits to be done, in His justice.,” he explains, “That is to say, no good, here and now, in this man rather than in another, comes about unless God Himself graciously wills and accomplishes it, and no evil, here and now, in this man rather than another, comes about unless God Himself justly permits it to be done. Nevertheless, God does not command the impossible, and grants even to those who do not actually observe His commandments the power of observing them.

        But those who observe His commandments are better than others and would not keep them in fact, had not God from eternity efficaciously decreed that they should observe these precepts. Thus, these good servants of God are more beloved and assisted by Him than others, although God does not command the impossible of the others.

        Furthermore, this very resistance to sufficient grace is an evil which would not occur, here and now, without the divine permission, and non-resistance itself is a good which would not come about here and now except for divine consequent will. Therefore, there is a real difference between sufficient grace, to which is attached the divine permission of sin and by reason of which the fulfillment of the commandments is really possible, and efficacious grace, on the other hand, which is a greater help whence follows not only the real possibility of observing the commandments, but their effective fulfillment. “ This is, precisely, the teaching of St Augustine. St Thomas, too, says, “Since the love of God is the cause of the goodness of things, no one would be better than another if God did not will a greater good to one than to another.” (Ia, q. 20, a. 3)

        • ColdStanding

          Yes, and so what? Your intent is ambiguous. To you intend this a rebuttal or confirmation? You leave your position undeclared. You leave it to me to read this quote as an agreement with my position as being one of the possible readings. That is the training of the council in question at work in you.

          • Michael Paterson-Seymour

            I believe you are failing to make two important distinctions.

            Firstly, we must distinguish between what St Thomas calls God’s antecedent and consequent will. “Whatever God wills absolutely, is done (otherwise He would not be omnipotent), although what He wills antecedently (or only conditionally) may not be done,” [Ia, q. 19, a. 6 ad I] for in this instance God permits the opposite evil for the sake of a greater good; thus He wills antecedently that all the fruits of the earth come to maturity, but He permits that many actually do not reach this maturity. It is similar in the matter of the salvation of men. Antecedently God wills a thing according as it is good in itself, for example, that all men be saved, that all His commands be ever fulfilled; but at the same time He permits to some extent the opposite evil for the sake of a greater good, and thus “what He wills only antecedently or conditionally is not done.

            Secondly, we must distinguish between sufficient grace, offered to all, to which is attached the divine permission of sin and by reason of which the fulfillment of the commandments is really possible, and efficacious grace, on the other hand, given only to the elect, which is a greater help whence follows not only the real possibility of observing the commandments, but their effective fulfillment.

            As an upholder of Tradition, why do you resist the teaching of St Augustine, the Doctor of Grace (and of St. Fulgentius, St. Prosper, St. Gregory, St. Thomas, and St. Buonaventure too), in favour of the Molinist doctrine that no one had heard of, until the Jesuits popularised it in the 17th century? (I accept, of course, that Rome has never pronounced definitively between the two schools)

            • Ford Oxaal

              I am posting this as a way to look back on this really most excellent and important discussion and study it.

              The Thomist negative reprobation is a possibility, as is Molinism, and I believe both involve unconditional election. It is said that God, can, in justice, withhold efficacious grace. Given the difficulty of the history and articulation of these ideas, there would seem to be work to do.

              I think Pohle has a good handle on where we are in Catholic teaching on this at newadvent.org in the Catholic Encyclopedia. As I recall, he seems to distill down the boundaries of the free will discussion to the following:

              1. Good works are part of the cause of salvation.
              2. Damnation is not predetermined but is on account of sin.
              3. No sin is predestined.

              The discussion inevitably will try to resolve a seeming contradiction between unchanging God and changing creation, as well as stay within the above boundaries as a nice hint from the Catholic Church.

              • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                Ford Oxaal

                “ Good works are part of the cause of salvation” is true, if taken in the right way. The Council of Orange teaches “that grace is not preceded by merit. Recompense is due to good works if they are performed; but grace, to which we have no claim, precedes them, to enable them to be done.” We are neither Lutherans on the one hand, nor Pelagians on the other.

                As to the other two points, the same Council declares, “We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema.” That is the false teaching of Calvin. For this reason Bossuet declares: “Our intellect must be held captive before the obscurity of the divine mystery and admit two graces (sufficient and efficacious) of which the former leaves our will without any excuse before God, and the latter does not permit the will to glory in itself.”

                The great mystery is this: On the one hand, I am a real active agent, with a will that determines the acts it initiates; on the other, my very existence and all my faculties are constantly welling up out of God’s creative act. God and the creature both, in some sense, enact the creature’s existence. That is why the prophet says, on the one hand, “Make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit” (Ez 18:31) and on the other, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you” (Ez 36:26) and the Apostle admonishes us, “Continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,” whilst declaring, “for it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him” (Phil 2:12-13)

                • Ford Oxaal

                  Very succinctly put, and a wonderful set of references. Many many thanks. Can you comment on unconditional election? I think the key is understanding sin,not an act of free will, but as a failure of the will to be free. So the grace of final perseverance bolsters the will to such a degree that it cannot commit an ‘act of slavery’ — just as the saints in heaven are there to stay…

                  • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                    Pacsal summarises St Augustine’s teaching very well in the 14th of Les Provinciales, “God transforms the heart of man, by shedding abroad in it a heavenly sweetness, which surmounting the delights of the flesh, and inducing him to feel, on the one hand, his own mortality and nothingness, and to discover, on the other hand, the majesty and eternity of God, makes him conceive a distaste for the pleasures of sin which interpose between him and incorruptible happiness. Finding his chiefest joy in the God who charms him, his soul is drawn towards Him infallibly, but of its own accord, by a motion perfectly free, spontaneous, love-impelled; so that it would be its torment and punishment to be separated from Him. Not but that the person has always the power of forsaking his God, and that he may not actually forsake Him, provided he choose to do it. But how could he choose such a course, seeing that the will always inclines to that which is most agreeable to it, and that, in the case we now suppose, nothing can be more agreeable than the possession of that one good, which comprises in itself all other good things? “Quod enim (says St. Augustine) amplius nos delectat, secundum operemur necesse est [On Epistle to Galatians 49]- Our actions are necessarily determined by that which affords us the greatest pleasure.”

                    Do I lack free will, because my invincible repugnance for Crème de Menthe stops me drinking it? Of course, I could drink it, if I chose; I can choose what I do, but not what I want to do.

                    • Ford Oxaal

                      To follow the analogy, if Creme de Menthe were Heaven, you would need a gratuitous gift from God (grace -> through Baptism (including Baptism by Desire, etc.) ) with which you need not assent (infant Baptism). The invincibility of your repugnance is now gone. Then, to cultivate a taste for Creme de Menthe (and this is a brilliant example by its sheer horror) you would need to have your free will strengthened, bit by bit, by using your free will to cooperate with grace that comes through, first and foremost, the Sacraments. A positive feedback loop of sorts — good habit. Conversely, you could decide to stick to Scotch, and get into ever more bizarre and unpronounceable labels. My question is, do you choose which taste to cultivate — or does the definition of grace include pushing you to what is the objectively right path. Pascal and Augustine would seem to say the latter.

                    • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                      “Pascal and Augustine would seem to say the latter.” I am pretty sure they would. It is worth remembering the personal factor; both had vivid conversion experiences and this would incline them to stress the Divine initiative, rather than the human response.

                      The Council of Orange, drawing heavily on the works of St Augustine and his disciple, St Prosper of Aquitaine can be read in that sense, when it teaches “if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).” (Canon 6) The old Catholic Encyclopaedia says that the Council enjoys “œcumenical authority,” having been approved by Pope Boniface II, but I am not concerned to argue its precise status.

                      Of course, this has to be read in harmony with Trent: “If any one says, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life – if so be, however, that he depart in grace – and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.” [Sess 6 c32] This was directed particularly against the Lutherans, as Orange was aimed at the Semi-Pelagians.

                    • Ford Oxaal

                      And the whole Boniface II thing is fascinating in and of itself…as is the tunneling toward truth from the Thomist (infallible efficacy of grace) versus Molinist (unrestrained freedom of the will) starting points. But:

                      Here is the 20,000 dollar question asked by an eight year old: “Why would God, knowing that a creature would go to Hell, create it anyway?” A friend gives the following answer. Is this friend taking a heretical stance?

                      “Intention – The ends and design for acting but not necessarily acted upon. The ends viewed for acting.
                      Motive – The ends for acting when acting. The intentions in acting. The purpose in doing.
                      Volition – Intentions while acting upon a choice exerted. Assent in fulfilling intentions. Intentional act. Doing with motive.

                      Culpability for an act depends upon volition. Thus is determined the motive in acting.

                      If in the very act of creating free will God knew its consequences God could be considered culpable for them. But if the consequences of free will were not thereby intended God would not be their author and could not be considered culpable for them.

                      The precise question is, does Divine volition in creating free will necessarily include knowing its consequences or intending them?

                      To the contrary, creation of free will is not inclusive of knowing its result. The one does not necessitate or depend on the other. They are two wholly different things. Rather would it be an impossible contradiction in motive to both intend free will while intending knowledge of its consequences. No will beyond God’s would be created. It would be to intend that free will is not free. Such motive is contradictory of its ends, rendering divine ability to create free will impossible. Yet we have free will.

                      Instead, motive does not include intention beyond its own ends. If the volition in creating free will creates free will, the ends of intending free will is fully, completely met – no additional intention of precognition is necessary. Precognition is not necessary to create free will; it is actually contrary to it. God’s motive in creating free will could not include intention of knowing its future.

                • slainte

                  MPS we owe you a huge debt of gratitude for the education you provide to all of us. We are better and more informed Catholics because of your tireless efforts Thank you.

                  • Michael Paterson-Seymour

                    Slainté
                    Thank you, but please bear in mind that much of this is theological opinion, not dogma. The Church has condemned the errors of Pelagius, Luther, Calvin and Jansen, but that still leaves a wide range undetermined. One can be good Catholic and a Molinist, or simply have an open mind on these questions.

                    “Turn to the Lord” (Hos 14:2) and “Turn back, turn back from your evil ways” (Ez 33:11) and also, “Turn us, O God of our salvation” (Ps 85:4) and “Turn thou me, and I shall be turned” (Jer 31:18).and ” Turn you us to you, O LORD, and we shall be turned (Lam 5:21)” S

                    So long as we hold onto both truths, we are under no obligation to reconcile them. It is one of the mysteries of Faith.

            • ColdStanding

              But a discussion of Molinism is not your point, is it? No, you wish to place me upon the horns of a dilemma; to paint me as resisting the very doctors of the Church. For if I assent to the Molinist position, it be construed as going against the teachings of earlier teachers that form the bedrock of our tradition. It appears that I am accepting development of doctrine. How then, I imagine you to ask, can I be against the council in question? It, too, is development of doctrine, just like the Molinist position. What’s good for the goose being also good for the gander, eh? Accept Molin? Then accept Rahner.

              Er, no thanks.

  • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

    Wonderful article, Mr. Ruse. Now get ready for all the attacks from “happy, well-adjusted gays” who simply cannot abide the horrible thought that someone, someplace, doesn’t celebrate sodomy. (Thus, they haunt Catholic pages, whereas most of us wouldn’t even know how to find the mouthpieces of the “gay lifestyle.”)

    • RC

      Dr. Williams well stated. I do not understand why they choose to come here to criticize our Faith and beliefs when the internet is replete with sites where their statements can be posted and supported. I do not think they are as “happy and well adjusted” as they want people to think.

      • Guest

        They crave affirmation. They think it will quiet their consciences. They must stamp out all dissent.

        • slainte

          “They” are part of us with all our human frailties and deeply held desire to be loved and affirmed. We are all sinners in need of redemption.

          • Guest

            They was referring to a political group that demands assent to their agenda.

            • slainte

              Love the sinner; hate the sin….applies to all of us.

              • Guest

                Yes, and so? Why are you pointing out the obvious?

                My response was an answer as to why certain types of persons come her and type what they do. My point is, and was, that they have a disturbed conscience. They are mistakenly thinking if they could wipe out any dissent on this topic their turmoil would go away.

                I think what I wrote is accurate. It was in regard to this very specific situation. I have no idea why you are responding to my specific comment with generalities?

                • Tiger

                  I love how people use “My statement was *accurate*” to justify any amount of disrespect for human dignity.

                  If you can’t tell the truth *without* violating the Church’s rules for how you’re expected to treat other people, best to keep your mouth shut and let someone with a functioning conscience do it for you.

                  No amount of “But they disagree!” whining will mitigate your obligation to treat people with compassion.

                  • ForChristAlone

                    people are due compassion; sin is not

                    • Tiger

                      Yeah, and?

                      How does that change the “I don’t need to be compassionate to people because I’m technically telling facts!” rationalization I see on a weekly basis? That’s the thing I was complaining about.

                    • Guest

                      You seek offense as matter of course. Stick to the arguments.

                    • Tiger

                      Your argument included the “It’s true so it doesn’t matter how much malice I show in telling it” caveat. I’m sticking to that part of it.

                    • Guest

                      A lie. Stop the drama and propaganda.

                    • April Spring

                      This Tiger guy is a major troll! Don’t waste your energy with Tiger. He won’t accept that there are EX-GAYS on YOUTUBE who are honest and are encouraging other Gays to stop having Sodomy.

                    • Tiger

                      Seek offense? You call having a fellow student swing a chain at me for daring to tell him to stop bullying me, “seeking offense”?

                      It’s not a persecution complex when I had actual visible, physical injuries as a result.

                    • Encourage14

                      You have a real complaint here that should be heard. No one should be swinging chains at anyone. Where is Christ in this discussion?

                    • ForChristAlone

                      Sorry, but many of us here do not subscribe to the notion that sin equates with being a victim. No one attacks anyone (here or elsewhere) for harboring same sex attractions. What is attacked is the notion of calling what is evil “good.” That is an affront to justice. It is born of the Father of Lies who, as part of our profession of faith, we are called to renounce.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Amen.

                    • Tiger

                      Not only did I never equate sin with being a victim, but your denial of the very existence of actual physical assault myself and others have experienced is the very ESSENCE of disrespect for basic human dignity.

                      We’re such non-persons to you that even when we are kicked or hit with rocks, that doesn’t constitute a real attack to you.

                    • rod masom

                      Hey, man, stop MARINATING in self-pity and hypersensitivity as to how you may have been treated ()because you’re gay? unclear.) Catholics and Christians all over the world suffer REAL oppression each and every day from being just that (Catholic and Christian), forget about what they might have done to each other or to others. Their only “sin” is to be believers and want to live that way. So get over yourself and just look into Courage or Narth. They’ve helped many others, perhaps they can help you. And God Bless.

                    • Encourage14

                      Now just a minute! Is this man due pity? If he has been harmed, then we must hear his pain and listen with a heart! Let’s be fair!

                    • April Spring

                      Who is kicking you? And why are they kicking you?

                    • Tiger

                      That would be my peers when I was in school. Because they thought maybe a beating would qualify as “tough love” and make me stop experiencing same-sex attraction. I guess it was their idea of a “gay cure.”

                      You know, just a few steps more aggressive than you were advocating in your tantrum on the previous thread.

                    • slainte

                      Tiger, keep the faith and please come back again. Crisis Magazine is dedicated mostly to orthodox Catholics…so we favor the traditional faith and are somewhat exacting in our understanding of Catholicism. Thus, the experience of interacting with us can be a bit bumpy for a newbie. We welcome you here.
                      .
                      I encourage you to check out the Courage Apostolate for fellowship and watch the “Desire for the Everlasting Hills”….see link below.
                      .
                      Enjoy. : )

                      http://vimeo.com/101135437

                    • April Spring

                      See you got quite a mouth yourself with the “tantrum” remark.
                      Why would anyone want to speak to you or even help you.
                      Perhaps you were obnoxious, and they didn’t know how to deal with that.
                      I’m sorry that you got hurt, you know kids sometimes don’t know how to communicate so they use violence. I got hit on the head with an ash tray for no reason by some punk kid. Eventually I got over it. Your thread reveal that you got a lot of anger issues too.
                      People on the comment box are trying to help you, but you come off as a know at all and your position is dead wrong.
                      Sorry, that people are defensive and I guess so are you.
                      Peace.

                    • Candy

                      How did they know and how long ago was that? Have you sought help to talk through that? You weren’t the only one with bullies, trust me. I knew what it was to have rather died than go to school every morning… To the point my parents had to drop me off and pick me up. But i’m not going to blame strangers speaking their mind (and btw, you don’t know what they have and haven’t been through), to soothe me for something I went through years ago. Have you gone back to talk to the actual peers to did it?

                    • Candy

                      No darling, that’s how you perceive yourself, don’t project. We’re all making a journey. You can stay in your funk or improve it. As long as you press rewind you’ll never make the moves you have to… period.

                  • Art Deco

                    “My statement was *accurate*” to justify any amount of disrespect for human dignity.

                    He never manifested any ‘disrespect for human dignity’ outside your imagination.

                    • Guest

                      Exactly. Now we have to have 500 posts defending a false charge. All past of the agenda.

                    • Tiger

                      True, he wasn’t the one defending badmouthing “queers.” a couple articles ago.

                    • Encourage14

                      If anyone used the term “queer” let them step up to the plate and apologize now!

                  • Guest

                    Give your propaganda a rest. Truth is hate to those who hate truth. Part of the syndrome is seeking offense at every turn. It allows you to be the center of conflict and claim persecution even when none is present. Go play that game elsewhere because I do not accept that nonsense.

                    • Tiger

                      Maybe you wouldn’t get offended by being called a queer by the regulars here, but that doesn’t mean it’s respectful compassion all of the sudden.

                    • Guest

                      Which post here has done that?

                    • Tiger

                      A couple of Austin Ruse articles ago, several posters in here started calling another poster a queer repeatedly (to the point of doing so rather than actually making arguments), and then tried to argue that the term only suddenly became offensive in the last 15 years rather than the 120ish years it’s been a slur for gays that the married Catholic man with kids they were directing it reminded them it’s been.

                      If you want I can go back and find it, but if I recall it was Art Deco, and then someone else joined in shortly thereafter.

                    • Tiger

                      Okay, sorry, several was an overstatement, but at least two.

                    • Encourage14

                      I beg your pardon! Someone who has had a chain swung at him and has been called queer has truly been offended! This is no game. Guest, you deny his offense and minimize his pain. This is unjust, uncharitable and not from the Lord.

                  • Asmondius

                    Speaking of the devil……

                • Encourage14

                  I think people use the site because they are harboring resentment for having been previously offended. The better place to address these objections would be in the presence of others who care, such as at a Courage meeting. The topic of this is article is the film itself, which by the way, Tiger, I hope you will watch, if you haven’t.

            • Tiger

              Yeah, slainte, “They” isn’t referring to *people* with *human dignity.*
              It’s referring to enemies, out-group-entities who’s ideas should be destroyed regardless of what harm is done in the process.

              Get with the program.

              Austin Ruse has gone over this again and again. If you can’t destroy their ideas by misrepresenting their beliefs, accuse them of “wanting to have sex with boys.”

              • slainte

                Tiger, I responded to Guest as I did because Catholicism and God commands us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Persons suffering from same sex attraction are our neighbors and so we extend a hand in friendship and love affirming your dignity and recognizing that you are beloved children of God. Catholics can’t, however, and won’t affirm sexual actions occuring outside the bond of sacramental marriage….such sexual activity is, according to Revelation and the Church, a Sin for those who are heterosexual and same sex attracted.
                .
                Some who interact in this forum, especially in response to Mr. Ruse’s articles, view Catholics as hateful and provoke us to respond aggressively; this constitutes bad faith on the part of the provocateurs. Catholicism always affirms the dignity and intrinsic value of every person especially those who bear heavy crosses (and I would include within this group those suffering from same sex attraction).
                .
                So Tiger I will ask you the same question I asked RC…how can the Catholic Church and lay Catholics meet your needs so that you freely choose to return to God and turn your back on the “lifestyle”?
                .
                Bear in mind all who have not received the sacrament of marriage are called to Chastity.
                .
                Pax tecum

                • Tiger

                  I’ll split my reply into two posts because there’s two distinct issues to address regarding your question. What Catholics *here* can do and what Catholics in non-online interactions can do.

                  There’s a reason a lot of the visiting posters here view Catholics as hateful.

                  It’s because some of your regulars call us queers and call their actions love. Then spend days defending their use of deliberately painful slurs, even against other Catholics here who were saying it was over the line.

                  They rationalize that as long as they’re talking about facts it’s okay for them to use the same language as the coworkers who harass us and make us afraid to even walk to the car at the end of the day. Or the ones who back in high school would follow us home from school every day throwing rocks and threatening to beat us with chains if we tried to make them stop.

                  Those are the sorts of people who call us “queers.” But some people here think the word doesn’t have any real negative history and all the hurt feelings that result from digging up memories of being assaulted and harassed are all invented for political advantage.

                  Just using some damned courtesy would make a world of difference.

                  It’s never going to happen here, though.
                  Any claim that they’re being anything less than saintly in their deliberate use of pejorative terms is automatically labelled propaganda.

                  • slainte

                    Tiger, God loves you so much that he formed you in His own Image. You are a being of incalculable worth with unique talents who will continue to change this world and leave it better than when you arrived. You are an incarnated soul whose destiny is eternal life with Our Lord.
                    .
                    God does not make “second class” citizens or “queer beings” or whatever pejorative terms a fallen world may try to attach to you in an effort to wear you down and separate you from God. You do not realize how much the Father loves you, His son, and how much he wants to and will support you as you wrestle with the unique challenges encountered on life’s journey.
                    .
                    Your dedication to the food pantry (sorry for referring to it as a soup kitchen earlier) is not forgotten by God because you enabled Him to feed the least among us, and by so doing you modeled God for others. Stay close to the Church where Our Lord will always be present to support you and lighten your burden. I wish you well.

                  • DE-173

                    “Just using some damned courtesy would make a world of difference.”
                    Except the activists that come here, with amazing alacrity whenever the topic is homosexuality, don’t want courtesy, they want surrender.
                    If “queer” is so bad, why does one of the most prolific activists that trolls here describe himself as “queer” on his disqus profile , why have there been university courses in “queer studies”.
                    You are just jamming, arguing male fide.

                    • Guest

                      Right, the propaganda technique is to misuse Christian ethics as a cudgel. They invert things and claim offense. Even the word “they” cannot be used in proper context as it will be termed insensitive. It is not only absurd but diabolical.

                    • Tiger

                      The funny thing is, if you showed courtesy, they would be a lot more respectful of you. But you’ve never tried it. You assume bad faith and attack instantly. Then they escalate *in response* to your discourtesy and disrespect.

                      And you want to know why queer is so bad?
                      Because queer is one of the things the people who assault or harass us call us.
                      Queer is what people who make “jokes” who’s punchline is essentially “gay people are so toxic anything associated with them is ruined” without realizing one of us is in the room call us.
                      Queer is shouted with pure malice at us, and has been again and again for far longer than I’ve been alive.
                      I hear “F****ing queer” far more often than I hear the word alone.
                      It has over 100 years of history as a pejorative term. A slur. An insult. A word used to degrade and deny the dignity of others with.

                      Maybe some people are trying to take control of the word to prove to themselves they aren’t just a victim. Maybe they’re just trying to take the sting out of it by associating it with non-hostile encounters. That’s their thing, not mine.
                      Stop treating us like we’re all one person.
                      Stop trying to hold me accountable for what’s on some other person’s profile.
                      Respect that I am a human being distinct from some group you want to dissolve my identity into so you can imagine the person you’re talking to is merely a political position.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      I respect you as a child of God, a human being. In fact I love you, as Christ has commanded us.

                      But if you are leading a sinful, gay lifestyle, I won’t respect that…..I won’t respect your sins.

                      So as someone who loves you and respects you as a fellow human being and child of God, I need to tell you that you need to turn from the gay lifestyle, from mortal sin.

                      Or your soul might be damned for eternity.

                    • Tiger

                      So… I take it that whether you have compassion for the pain of people called “queers” is contingent on whether I affirm or reject some “agenda” or “lifestyle”?

                      Or is your response just badly placed so that it appears that way despite that not being intended?

                      Because I expressed concerns and described behavior that is causing harm, and your response was to ask whether I was leading a particular lifestyle as if your position regarding the use of slurs depended on my answer to that question.

                      I’m not trying to accuse here, I’m just explaining how it’s coming across in case there’s some miscommunication happening.

                    • DE-173

                      I don’t assume anything.

                      “I hear “F****ing queer” far more often than I hear the word alone.”

                      That isn’t said here. People don’t use the f-bomb here. Stop trying to hold us accountable for said by others.

                  • Encourage14

                    Tiger, you might consider that everyone is in need of conversion in some aspect of their life. People do both good and bad, right? Even OT here, as much as I despise some of his comments, has also some good comments here. We should avoid painting with a broad brush and saying that the person is ill intentioned entirely. Really, the question is, Where is God calling you? Why do you care so much about what other people say to you when you could spend this time thinking about what God is saying to you instead? Like for instance, “Come to ME you who are burdened”. This is what you would gain from attending Courage meetings. You can look on the website and find a chapter near you and maybe you will even tell us what your experience was like if you go. That’s what I would do if I were you . Spend less time here and more time there.

                • Tiger

                  I’ll split my reply into two posts because there’s two distinct issues to address regarding your question. What Catholics *here* can do and what Catholics in non-online interactions can do.

                  Just to be up front, I have no problem with the Church’s teachings. I’m still constantly interacting with my home parish and the monsignor that used to be here still calls me up to wish me a happy birthday every year despite having moved to another parish probably 10 years ago. I’ve personally kept their food pantry running for nearly a year until they could get enough additional volunteers that I wasn’t driving 30 miles all over town to pick up food every weekend and could occasionally have a week off.

                  That said, I still talk about “myself” and “them” because I never actually feel welcome, except for a small minority of the people I interact with there. While I was keeping their food pantry supplied with food, I had to try to ignore frequent blatantly anti-gay “jokes.” Or had to put in nearly 15 hours in a day and a half because the usual other volunteers were all busy petitioning the city to keep it legal to evict people from their homes just on the basis of sexual orientation.

                  It’s not the Church’s beliefs or teachings or internal rules I have any objection to at all.

                  I have a problem with the *conduct* of many Catholics. The way they disregard our feelings as if we don’t warrant respect.
                  The way they rationalize insulting us because they think they no longer have an obligation to show compassion if they think the person won’t be convinced.
                  The way they act like we are nothing more than opponents to be defeated and not people with actual experiences.
                  The way they clearly show that they think listening to what we have to say is nothing but a waste of time because they already decided before we said anything that anything we say would be propaganda designed to trick them into something.

                  Sometimes it’s like we’re nothing but an anthropomophized agenda with human bodies attached and not even recognized as distinct individual people. They attribute any argument any of us has made to the whole and any wrongdoing by any individual is something all of us are somehow guilty for.

                  • slainte

                    Tiger, I’m sorry that you were hurt in this forum.
                    .
                    We sometimes forget in our urgent need to state a strongly held belief that the words we use, if not carefully chosen and ordered by love, have the ability to slice through the psyche of another like a sword which leaves a gaping emotional wound invisible to all but its human target.
                    .
                    I acknowledge having erred in this regard on more than one occasion only to realize, after the fact, how much pain I caused another. My need to proclaim the truth of an issue and make myself heard resulted in pounding home a series of words that visibly shocked my interlocutor. I rationalized that since I was proclaiming the truth, the manner of delivery was irrelevant. I was wrong and someone whose opinion I valued very much turned his back on me. I concede it was shocking to receive a dose of my own medicine.
                    .
                    I don’t think many of Crisis’ comment posters dislike or withhold respect from persons with same sex attraction. Note if you will the affirmative response received by commenter RC in light of his disclosure that he is Catholic, gay (his term), and living a chaste life. The harsh response from posters tends to be reserved for those perceived to be attacking the Church, Catholic beliefs, or advancing an agenda that is inimical to the Church or disrepectful of Our Lord. The harsh response though does not win hearts and minds so I am not convinced that it’s the most salutary response to those with anti-Catholic views.
                    .
                    I accept your rightful demand to be treated respectfully and with dignity. I commend you for your amazing and selfless work which sustained your parish soup kitchen. You went above and beyond the call of duty and merit many graces from Our Lord for your kind acts of mercy.
                    .
                    I hope that you will consider engaging the Courage apostolate in your diocese so that you may receive from the Church its healing wisdom and compassion to guide you on your life’s journey and so that you might also partake of fellowship with others who walk the same path. You deserve it.
                    .
                    Pax Christi

                    • Art Deco

                      Tiger, I’m sorry that you were hurt in this forum.

                      Might suggest imprudent to throw isopropanol on open flames.

                    • slainte

                      AD, I trust that God will guide my words to comfort one who has experienced hurt over many years and who needs to know that his pain is acknowledged. SSA is a tough cross to carry alone.

                    • Art Deco

                      who needs to know that his pain is acknowledged.

                      I think my father would have been thinking of unintended consequences at this point.

                    • slainte

                      AD, Catholicism reminds us that Our Lord is gentle and kind; a Father who is a balm to those who have experienced hurt. I am trying, albeit very imperfectly, to live and imitate His ways. I put my faith in Him and leave all consequences to Him.

                    • DE-173

                      There’s a time to call a brood of vipers a brood of vipers. Jesus wasn’t Barney the Dinosaur.

                    • John200

                      A well-formed Catholic needs that particular talent in the repertoire. You are incomplete without it.

                      There are indeed times when God works through you to call a brood of vipers a brood of vipers. Maybe not every day, but it certainly does occur.

                    • slainte

                      DE, I think we should start off by giving a person the benefit of the doubt that he or she is real and address any legitimate concerns raised. If it turns out that person is not acting in good faith, then vigorously defend against the propaganda and the agenda.

                    • DE-173

                      When the prose is incessant on a single topic, makes a special claim on injury or victimization, as pretext for license, it’s trolling.

                    • slainte

                      DE….when confronted with such things, we should recall that Christ’s teachings, His kindness, His goodness, His compassion, His mercy, and His infinite love for all His children will overcome this world and transform hearts and minds.
                      .
                      God restores and makes whole those who are wounded and broken and He offers hope to those who have lost hope. He makes all things new again.
                      .
                      Those who troll make it possible for us to expand upon God’s mercy more expansively than we otherwise might. We owe them a debt of gratitude.

                    • Encourage14

                      Ahhh, a truly devout Catholic comment in Slainte’s post.

                    • Guest

                      Amen. The rabbit hole is now too deep. We have fallen in and all we do is defend the truth.

                    • Guest

                      Exactly, the propagandists seek to find any way to exploit words to their advantage. The intentional seeking of offense is a means to derail the discussion and refocus it away from the truth.

                      We ought not fall prey to these evil techniques. They are not about seeking the truth but they are about obfuscation and lies.

                    • fredx2

                      At the same time, it is incumbent on every Catholic to treat every gay with “sensitivity” because most of the time they are in deep hurt and we are not.

                      “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.” CCC 2358

                      We all need to exercise the self discipline of restraining the tongue and responding in a measured fashion. And its good in the long run both for ourselves in that we become more disciplined, and for the conversation, because we get less hysterical bashing and more thoughtful exchanges. Which might actually move hearts.

                      We need to be as Jesus was when all around him were castigating him unfairly. Jesus said turn the other cheek, and that includes in commboxes when you or your religion are attacked.

                      A soft answer turneth away wrath, but harsh words stir up anger.

                      A soft answer is also more persuasive, and if your goal is to reach them, then you have to exercise that self discipline that will enable you to reach them. From what I have seen, many of them are deeply interested in discussing things in a serious way, and if you reach out in a friendly manner, the gesture is returned.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      “At the same time, it is incumbent on every Catholic to treat every gay with “sensitivity” because most of the time they are in deep hurt and we are not.

                      “This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.” CCC 2358″

                      And at the same, those with homosexual inclinations need not to look at Church teaching and mercy as a justification or an excuse for living the gay lifestyle. Many do.

                      In your first paragraph above, replace the word “gay” with “human.” And delete the last four words “and we are not.” By our fallen nature, we are all in deep hurt. Those with homosexual tendencies are not in some special category, as if God’s going to grade them on a curve. We are all called to fight sinful tendencies. To follow Christ fully, no mulligans. The best way to respect homosexuals is to let them know we are also fighting with horrible demons, as they are, daily. And they should help us fight our demons as we will help them.

                    • Guest

                      True, and I would add all encounters are not about evangelization. We have an obligation to our children, families, and society. They deserve protection. The amount of propaganda we are exposed to is demonic. It really informs our consciences or deforms them.

                      This notion that exery propagandist is some victim looking for truth is a fiction. We must balance our command to spread the Gospel with our command to protect the common good. Not ever encounter must be about walking on egg shells to serve the pathology that demands obedience. No sir. We also must defend the truth as souls depend on it.

                    • slainte

                      Guest writes: “…The amount of propaganda we are exposed to is demonic. It really informs our consciences or deforms them…”
                      .
                      Only the Word can overcome the spirit of this world.
                      .
                      “…that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth..” Philippians 2:10

                    • Objectivetruth

                      “Not ever encounter must be about walking on egg shells to serve the pathology that demands obedience. No sir. We also must defend the truth as souls depend on it.”

                      Sin must be clearly, definitively, eyeball to eyeball, called out to someone as what it is: SIN!

                      The times when I’ve been obstinately consumed in mortal sin and a close friend verbally slapped me around by telling me “do you understand what you are doing is a mortal sin and you could go to hell?!” Are the times I believe when the Holy Spirit sent me an angel, to wake me up and pull me out of the sewer.

                    • Tiger

                      The problem I see is in assuming that anyone with an anecdote about victimization is a propagandist. Many people have been subject to terrible injustice or violence, and automatically assuming that anyone who says they have is lying to try to convince you of something is doing a further injustice to those who have actually suffered.

                      But as much as you can’t be expected to perpetually walk on egg shells, you shouldn’t just shoulder your way through a china shop while reciting “I don’t always have to walk on egg shells!”

                    • slainte

                      OT writes: “…The best way to respect homosexuals is to let them know we are also fighting with horrible demons, as they are, daily. And they should help us fight our demons as we will help them…”
                      .
                      But this important insight which could lead to greater understanding and solidarity with those who are same sex attracted becomes lost when we descend into fight mode.
                      .
                      It was Jesus who said: “Let he who is without sin throw the first stone” and then, after refusing to condemn the woman caught in adultery, cautioned her to “Go and sin no more”.John 8:1-11
                      .
                      Jesus, through the Catholic Church, has to be our guide in our interaction with those who experience same sex attraction.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      And Christ sometimes slainte, used “tough love.” When He smacked down Peter calling him “satan” and to get behind him, I believe Christ’s demeanor and attitude was quite stern. In the bread of life discourse in John 6, one can picture Christ with a stern, furrowed brow asking the disbelieving disciples “why are you mumbling amongst yourself?!” It’s not “fight mode.” The male of the human species mostly, slainte, sometimes needs to receive the Truth right between the eyes. Friends of mine who have unequivocally told me in no uncertain terms when I was sinning, I now look upon as my closest friends and I’m glad when they grabbed me by my lapels and gave me the necessary wake up call I needed.

                    • DE-173

                      I seem to recall the term “you brood of vipers” as well. Matt 12:34
                      And then there was the episode in the Temple..
                      .

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Grabbed a staff, cleaned house……JC certainly wasn’t hummin’ tunes from “The Sound of Music” as he put a hurtin’ on those violating His Father’s house.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      “If you are lukewarm about me, I will vomit you out!”

                    • Encourage14

                      Charity and kindness along with a gentle explanation of the truth. Objective, you lack it all.
                      “If I have not love, I have nothing”.

                    • Tiger

                      Keep in mind that some people, because they have had very different experiences, will associate being grabbed by the lapels or being “smacked down” with very, very different things than you would. Sometimes very dark, negative things we want very much to avoid or fight off at all costs.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Sigh…..!

                      So is your spending so much time on an orthodox Catholic website, a cry for help? Do you want to be Catholic, Tiger? I know it might seem overwhelming, but do you want to take a swim across (or back across) the Tiber, Tiger?

                    • Encourage14

                      Jesus knew the truth about the woman at the well but he did not bat her between the eyes. First he talked to her and listened to her.
                      Jesus knew the truth about the woman caught in adultery, and he said, Go and sin no more. He didn’t slam her. You have the wrong idea about Christ, Objectivetruth,
                      If I were Tiger, I would leave this conversation because there is absolutely no point in talking to you. Your heart is cold.
                      Even if someone is attracted to the same sex, this is not a sin. There is no sin to correct.
                      Perhaps you might need to look into your own heart and be as harsh with yourself.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      No, You are wrong.

                      Quite sanctimonious and judging, aren’t you? Are you trying to judge ones heart from words in a comment box? You know nothing about me…..but you choose to judge what’s in my heart?

                      Are you new to Crisis? Whenever there’s an article on homosexuality/the gay lifestyle, there are proponents of the gay lifestyle that “troll” these articles vehemently attacking the Church and it’s teachings. I suggest you look in to the archives at Austin’s articles, and see how he is viciously attacked by the gay community for bluntly speaking the truth of the gay lifestyle. These gay advocates come on to this site to attack and disrupt.

                      If Tiger’s story is true, I have great sympathy for him. I would help him in any way on his journey back to the Church, and I have said that repeatedly. Of course, you have chosen to cherry pick my posts and ignored those comments of mine, haven’t you?

                      But….if Tiger is only here as a proponent of the gay lifestyle, and to disrupt, then shame on him and he has been successful,. He has been asked many times if he would like help with Courage, joining the Church, but he ignores these requests.

                      I know you only want to help, Encourage14, and that is commendable. But be careful….the negative traits you are accusing me of, are exhibited in your postings to me.

                      So please don’t judge someone’s heart from comment boxes, probably not a good idea. Only Christ judges what’s in a mans heart, not you.

                    • Encourage14

                      “Tiger is just a gay troll antagonist here to disrupt and attack. My own fault for falling for his bait.”
                      This is one reason why I said what I said and I stand by that. Yes, you have made some positive comments here, however you never acknowledged these offensive remarks in this article’s postings. So I’m calling you out on it. Why on earth would he join a Church whose members call him a gay troll antagonist. Let’s be real. That was a cold hearted remark if I ever heard one, especially after all he has shared with us here.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      And slainte, actually, we are in fight mode. There is spiritual warfare raging around us. The angels right now around us are not protecting us with feather dusters from the demons looking to destroy us at every opportunity. True Catholic love sometimes is forcefully and loudly telling someone you love they are heading for a cliff, and they need to change direction.

                    • John200

                      We certainly are in fight mode. We are destined to spend our earthly lives in “Spiritual Combat” (Lorenzo Scupoli).

                      If we do well, then things will get easier and, ultimately, quite pleasant.

                      You know the alternative.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Father Dom’s 600 year old Catholic classic should be required reading for all Catholics today.

                    • Tiger

                      If a lamb is heading toward a cliff, however, shouting at it will just scare it into running faster.

                      Sometimes instead of yelling, you need to take someone by the hand and walk them away from a cliff.

                      Not everything can be solved with aggression, and the truth is still the truth when it is whispered soothingly instead of shouted.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      So what is it, Tiger? Do you want to be Catholic, a follower of Christ, and the teachings of His Church, especially on homosexuality.

                      Just answer “yes” or “no.”

                      If the answer is “yes”…..alleluia!!!!! You’re on the right site! Myself and dozens of others are here with love to help you on your journey.

                      If the answer is “no”, then what is it you want?

                      So what is it?

                    • Tiger

                      Help? Help?!

                      You’ve repeatedly accused me of being a propagandist and a whiner and refused to show me the compassion you say all people should be treated with. You’ve been dismissive and adversarial when I express vulnerable, sensitive facts in response to Slainte’s questions and generally been an uncivil, crude jerk who can’t even be bothered to focus on what I’m saying instead of arguing with some phantom activist that isn’t actually here.

                      I wouldn’t give you my answer to that question regardless, because you would just twist it and insult my life experiences and tell me how horrible I am for having strong emotions about things people have hurt me in regards to before. More of what you’ve been doing, in other words.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      I’ll take that as a “no.”

                      Good luck, Tiger. I wish you all the best.

                      But regardless of what you think of me…..you should seriously consider coming back to the Catholic Church. I hope you do.

                    • Tiger

                      What, exactly, is wrong with you?

                      You constantly berate me and dismiss what I have to say (when you even acknowledge that I said it). You conduct yourself with all the delicacy and concern of a runaway train, but you expect me to pour my heart out to you for another round of insults and degradation?

                      You can’t even acknowledge you’re being disrespectful, because I wouldn’t answer whether I was in a class of people you felt disrespect toward was acceptable.

                      You say you’re here to help, then I scroll down a little way and you’re berating and disrespecting me again.

                      Why would I voluntarily open myself up to that?
                      Who in their right mind would do that?

                      You can’t even be bothered to keep track of what *I* was saying and what some other previous person you argued with said in the past.

                      My advice is that if you find you continue to be unable to keep a civil, respectful tongue around gay people, just keep a lid on it and entrust outreach to us to someone with a better disposition for the task.

                    • Encourage14

                      I’m with you on that comment, Tiger. So why haven’t you responded to anyone’s invitation to Courage, if this gentle approach is what you seek? And have you ever watched the Desire of the Everlasting Hills, which is actually the topic of this article?

                    • Tiger

                      I have been seeking Truth for quite a while, and I know many very good people who are Catholic…

                      But when half the people offering me help punctuate their offers by claiming experiences that shaped my life aren’t real, defend the deliberate use of slurs, and call me a whiner for being sensitive to issues that I have been *made* sensitive to by mistreatment, when they accuse me of being a propagandist when I answer questions honestly, when they accuse me of only being here to cause disruption when I don’t meekly accept overt disrespect…

                      When they spend half their time trying their hardest me down and the other half promising they know the key to happiness…

                      Let’s just say I’m not any less conflicted than before.

                      I don’t think I’ll be leaving, but the way OT, AD, Guest, DE, and others behave, it’s not making me want to run out and dive in to their community.

                    • Tiger

                      Ack, lost a bit of a sentence there.
                      “…trying their hardest to shout me down…” is what it should read.

                    • Encourage14

                      But what makes you think it is “their community”? I know what it is because I have direct experience with Courage. I’m telling you the truth and I care about what happened to you. I hope you will consider it. Its up to you of course.
                      This is just not the best place for you to find community. It just don’t see it helping you to continue arguing your point here when you could go elsewhere and be heard. Its like banging your head against a wall for heaven’s sake!

                    • Ruth Rocker

                      Ah, there’s the rub. Most people who are championing homosexual behavior will happily quote the first part of the passage and just as happily neglect to follow it to its conclusion – to sin no more. It is because the most strident voices supporting this behavior DO NOT believe it is a sin at all. It’s love, or nature, or some other force which cannot be resisted. Which is, of course, bilge water of the first order.

                      We are ALL guilty of being less than God intended us to be. We are ALL in need of the healing grace that only comes from Mother Church. Until and/or unless the supporters of homosexual behavior come to the acknowledgement that this is a SIN and will lead to eternal damnation will we make much headway. Right now the most vocal of these folks are like a small child having a temper tantrum. They know if they yell, scream, kick their feet or hold their breath that they will eventually get their way because it’s easier to cave and give in than to stand firm. It is most definitely not Christian love to continue to allow someone to deliberately choose a life of sin when there is so much better available. Telling the truth is not the same as hating.

                    • Guest

                      Amen

                    • slainte

                      Guest, we don’t disagree on “ends” just the “means”to achieve them. No offense or disrespect meant to you.

                    • slainte

                      Ruth, we agree. I think conversion away from a sinful lifestyle starts with identifying and rejecting the sinful behavior, affirming the person not the sin, and introducing that person to Christ through evangelization. I tried to do that in several posts here.

                    • Encourage14

                      Yes, You’ve made a valiant effort. I think the olive branch has been extended and refused.

                    • Tiger

                      But several of you aren’t helping us fight ours…
                      Many find ways to disbelieve that we have them, or disregard our statements because of them, or try to minimize the personal impact of them.

                      In fact, this whole trend of “The Church calls them out specifically as needing this kind of care, but since everyone needs that kind of care to some extent, we should de-specify that call, even if maybe the Church was being specific exactly because that particular group is more isolated and needs to be reached out to more proactively.” frustrates me to no end.

                      A while ago several of you would easily acknowledge that unprovoked violence is categorically bad, but would not willingly specify that unprovoked violence *against gay people* is bad, even though that is inherently also true if the former is true.

                      The reluctance says a lot about a degree of discomfort about the subject that many aren’t even consciously aware of.

                      To me, saying “violence against gays” is bad is simply reaffirming a subset of “violence against people is bad” so it gets really very disconcerting when people are visibly reluctant when they were not reluctant about the broader statement.

                      I’ll admit I jumped to assumptions of bad faith about that subject a while ago on this site, and at the time I rationalized it by saying I was trying to express to others how their statements were being received, but it was still unreasonable on my part and probably disrupted possible communication on the subject that could have occurred.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Would you like to be Catholic, Tiger?

                    • slainte

                      Tiger writes: “….A while ago several of you would easily acknowledge that unprovoked violence is categorically bad, but would not willingly specify that unprovoked violence *against gay people* is bad, even though that is inherently also true if the former is true….”
                      .
                      The Catholic Church commands Catholics to love and respect their neighbors without distinction. It accords universal respect to everyone of God’s children and does not distinguish between persons or classes of persons; all are entitled to love; all are entitled to respect; and all should be free from violence. Likewise, all are called to refrain from sin and conform their will to God’s will. In this way true liberty and equality are realized.
                      .
                      The Church loves the same sex attracted person equally with the opposite attracted person and calls both to live chaste lives absent receiving the sacrament of Holy Matrimony.
                      .
                      It would be helpful if Civil Law reflected the Church’s position on the absolute and universal equality and intergrity of all human persons from conception to natural death by recognizing that each person is made in the image and likeness of God. If this were the case, we would live in a truly civilized society.

                    • Guest

                      Please do not use the CCC as an excuse to water down the truth. Sensitivity has an objective component and a subjective component and applies to all persons not just those who are homosexual. Now, we must read the CCC and reconcile it with all Church teaching and documents. When a propagandist comes to a site like this and tries to pull these shenanigans the responses wil vary by poster. To claim my posts where insensitive is almost totally subjective. I responded to propaganda. I do not see any of my replies as insensitive, if we only view them through the eyes of current pop culture propaganda then they can be redefined to fit that narrative.

                      IOW, jus because someone claims offense is absolutely no reason to accept that as authentic especially given the context of which we speak.

                    • slainte

                      Guest, If Tiger is a propogandist, shame on him. If he is telling the truth (and I believe he is), it is not appropriate to dehumanize him in order to overcome a radical political agenda.
                      .
                      FIght the agenda dispassionately with Logic. Offer succor to your fellow Catholic who is carrying the heavy cross of same sex attraction. We are not machines; we are the children of God made in His Image and commanded to love Him and our neighbors as ourself.
                      .
                      That is the Catholic thing to do.

                    • Tiger

                      Are you really saying that one should disbelieve that a person has experience some kind of real emotional hurt in their life?

                      I’ve never met a person who hasn’t! I would find it hard to believe if someone denied having any such experience.

                    • Guest

                      Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously ? Your posts reveal your agenda. No intelligent person is going to accept your propaganda. Your roll here is not to search for truth but to fight and bring confusion and then claim victimhood.

                    • DE-173

                      At the same time, it is incumbent on every Catholic to treat every gay with “sensitivity” because most of the time they are in deep hurt and we are not.

                      We all have “deep hurts”. Nobody is without sin and many people have sins that vex them. You want deep hurt? Try having your world upended in a space of hours because a child has died, you’ve discovered infidelity, you or someone you love receives a terminal diagnosis, etc, etc.

                    • Tiger

                      It’s not a competition about who’s deep hurts are more “valid.”

                      One big pothole does not fill in the other smaller ones.

                    • DE-173

                      The only pothole here is the confusion in your posts.

                    • Tiger

                      I was going to go on a harangue about how you’re clearly deliberately misinterpreting metaphors, but you know what?

                      We all know you’re doing it deliberately just to try to infuriate me and “win” the discussion, and I don’t have the energy to put up with your disrespect right now. So I’m just going to be the bigger man and let it go.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Poor Tiger’s feelings are hurt! Doesn’t anyone understand how victimized he is? Someone….quick……call the WAAAH-bulance!!

                      We all have fallen tendencies and crosses. But we are all called to pick up those crosses and QUIETLY follow Christ.

                      Do the same, Tiger.

                    • Tiger

                      Hot damn, that’s some compassion and sensitivity on display!

                      Didn’t you say everybody should be shown those?

                      I guess I’m not part of “everybody” now?

                    • Objectivetruth

                      So what are you?

                      Are you a fallen away Catholic living the gay lifestyle?

                      Or are you a devout Catholic following the Church’s teaching on homosexuality and celibacy?

                      Which?

                    • Tiger

                      What are you?

                      Do you deliberately undermine the basic human dignity of others?

                      Or are you doing it because you simply can’t be bothered to listen when people tell you how you’re harming them?

                      Which?

                    • Tiger

                      And yes, OT, I am conspicuously avoiding your attempt to throw me into one or another pigeonhole that will allow you to simply disregard everything I say and all of my experiences more easily.

                      Your desire to find a reason to invalidate my experiences and statements, in itself, disrespect for human dignity.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      1. Devout, orthodox Catholic.

                      2. No.

                      3. You are on a Catholic website. You are hearing the Truth of Jesus Christ, as taught by His Catholic Church. If this Truth of Christ some how “harms” you or hurts your feelings because of your sinful lifestyle, so be it.

                      And the reality of it is you don’t have an issue with me. You have an issue with the teachings of the Catholic Church on the gay lifestyle.

                      Any other questions?

                    • Encourage14

                      A fact: Jesus Christ would never call anyone a gay troll. Don’t be fooled Tiger. This is NOT devotion to Jesus Christ.

                    • Encourage14

                      Oh yes you are, Tiger.
                      However, sometimes we need to see that other people are broken too and its not in our best interest to continue being around bullying personalities.

                    • Encourage14

                      Do YOU want to be Catholic, Objective truth? this is not an example of being so.

                    • Encourage14

                      Here is another example. Are YOU following Christ here, OT?

                    • Tiger

                      I truly appreciate your response. Thank you. I will try harder to keep in mind that sometimes disrespect is accidental and assume better faith on the part of others as well.

                      I think, upon further reflection, the problem is that too many of us (myself included) are to quick to assign adversarial status to people just because they don’t agree. We see what is actually the result of a different experience of the world as an attack on what we consider important.

                  • ForChristAlone

                    It sounds to be that you have just listed a large number of people you are called to pray for and to love. That alone will consume a good deal of your time.

                  • Objectivetruth

                    Why don’t you (like every human on the planet is charged with) just quietly pick up your cross and carry it? Why do we have to hear the constant “look at me! Look at me!” Boo hoo siren song of the homosexual community how victimized and marginalized you are? Do you want to hear about my fallen tendencies, and how the world should have a pity party for me? How my group, as you put it, are attacked and “The way they disregard our feelings as if we don’t warrant respect.”

                    We’re all in the same boat. Stop using your fallen sexual tendencies as a crutch, and grab an oar and help row.

                    LIKE ALL OF US: pick up your cross,QUIETLY carry it, and follow Christ! My crosses are quite heavy, and none of my family or friends know what they are. Focus on helping carry your neighbors cross, he/she in return will help you carry yours.

                    So stop whining!

                    • Tiger

                      Seriously?

                      Seriously?

                      Slainte ASKS me a question and you call me a whining for answering?!

                      You’re so unwilling to hear my experiences that you object to OTHER PEOPLE listening to them?!

                    • Tiger

                      And just in case you didn’t catch it (since you clearly didn’t read what I wrote), I wasn’t talking about my fallen tendencies, I was talking about how I’m treated like I’m not even a human being by people like you.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Jamming….

                      I’m sorry, Tiger. But I have to conclude you’re just another gay/gay agenda proponent in here ranting for what reasons I have no clue. You exhibit the typical immaturity and narcissism of many others looking to defend a perverted lifestyle. You claim “I have no problem with the Church’s teaching”, but what does that mean? Does that mean you’ve abandoned the gay life style for Christ?

                      Sorry, but……You’re a 4 year old child lieing on the kitchen floor kicking and screaming until you get attention. Grow up.

                      Before I dismiss you and write you off totally, what’d ya think of the article and documentary? Maybe you should go see the movie, don’t you think?

                    • Tiger

                      You conclude, because I object to being called a whiner for answering a question I was asked in good faith, that I’m a propagandist?

                      You haven’t even tried to consider what I’m saying and you just assume I’m arguing for what you EXPECT a person who disagrees with you to argue with.

                      I have said nothing about any non-celibate lifestyle, yet you accuse me of promoting one.

                      I tell Slainte what is making it difficult for me to engage with the broader Catholic community BECAUSE SHE ASKED ME, and you call me a narcissistic whiner for having the nerve to seriously answer a serious question even though it involves dredging up my own emotional pain.

                      That does not respect my fundamental human dignity.

                  • Rock St. Elvis

                    “the usual other volunteers were all busy petitioning the city to keep it legal to evict people from their homes just on the basis of sexual orientation”

                    Tiger, I’ve been reading and am sympathetic to your
                    circumstances and basic viewpoint, but this line is pure demagoguery. Those volunteers were seeking to protect the religious liberty of property owners, not to injure others. Straight white males under age 40 have no particular legal protections
                    from discrimination as they don’t obviously fit into any protected
                    class, yet I don’t see anyone fretting over the notion that “it is still
                    legal in 50 states for someone to be evicted for being a straight white male,” even though the same rhetorical trick you use here would be just as applicable. There’s no such hand wringing because there’s no crisis of straight white male evictions.

                    And there is no crisis of evictions of homosexuals on the
                    mere basis of their condition as homosexual.

                    But add “sexual orientation” as a protected class (something
                    impossible to even know without observing behavior) needlessly impairs the rights of property owners as owners, and as religious believers, to do whatever they see fit with their property. I know of no one who cares whether someone is merely same sex attracted, but in the legal realm these days, homosexual identity is equated with homosexual behavior, such that a baker’s declination to bake a cake for a gay “wedding” is somehow viewed as discrimination based on orientation rather than a refusal to aid and abet sin. With those as the ground rules, of course those faithful to God’s commandments do not want a new protected class of “sexual orientation,” knowing that it isn’t really orientation but behavior that will restrict the free exercise of their religion and their rights as property owners.

                    To tar property owners as somehow sinning against justice for wanting to dictate the terms for the use of their own property in accord with their consciences is blatantly unfair.

                    • Tiger

                      Here’s the problem…

                      I can accept that many people feel very strongly that this is not the *correct* way to solve the issue of certain kinds of injustice.
                      I’m totally behind that.

                      What I have a problem with is that the same people will absolutely refuse to offer a suggestion on an alternative method of combating the injustice that they would find acceptable.
                      Even when we directly ASK what we could do to find a solution they would approve of.

                      Because of that it eventually becomes a matter of “We recognize this injustice and are opposed to it, but we cannot think of any steps that should be taken to actually discourage it or protect those who suffer under this injustice.”

                      I WANT to know how we can fight unjust discrimination in the workplace or in housing or in public accommodations that we can all agree on!

                      If we could just find something like that we could at least *reduce* the amount of injustice even if it can’t be eliminated realistically.
                      But nobody who’s objecting to the suggestions we have will even say “Well, if it was like this instead I might be more okay with it.”
                      They won’t even cooperate with us on finding a solution they would approve of!

                    • Rock St. Elvis

                      1. There is no crisis of discrimination against homosexuals. As a group they are more affluent than straights.

                      2. Anti-discrimination laws are a very, very blunt instrument that create more problems than they set out to solve. As there is no widespread problem of discrimination against homosexuals, there is no need for anti-discrimination laws based on sexual orientation. If a landlord does not want to rent to a tenant simply because he’s gay, as opposed to what he does on the premises, that’s the landlord’s loss. Such is the nature of a free society: don’t like what’s offered, go elsewhere.

                    • Tiger

                      Denying something I have seen with my own eyes is not a compelling argument.

                      Less affluent gay people are more likely to stay “in the closet” because they are more acutely concerned about their job security. I know I’ve chosen to endure workplace harassment rather than raise my voice and be fired at a time when a single missed paycheck would have caused me to default on my student loans.

                      Being evicted from ones home because of the perception (real or otherwise) by the landlord that the tenant is gay is an injustice against the tenant, the USCCB has outright said so in regards to issues like this.

                      Saying “it’s the landlord’s loss” does not protect the person who finds himself homeless or having to desperately rush to find a new home on short notice and who has to face all the financial and time costs of moving to a new residence.

                      It doesn’t even discourage the action, because when it happens now, the landlord is already well aware they will lose that rent money but they choose to do it anyway.

                      That said, I understand if you think the approach being taken has problems. What I want to see, and never do, is a suggestion for an alternative that will reduce the injustice (doesn’t need to eliminate, just reduce) without the harms you’re concerned about. Or even a specific list of the particular harms so we can try to find another solution that addresses them.

                      SOMETHING needs to be done to protect people in case they are the subject of unjust discrimination, but one side is just saying “No” to every suggestion without explaining what would get a “yes” from them.

                    • Rock St. Elvis

                      “Saying “it’s the landlord’s loss” does not protect the person who finds
                      himself homeless or having to desperately rush to find a new home on
                      short notice and who has to face all the financial and time costs of
                      moving to a new residence.”

                      I have yet to see a lease to say that homosexuality is a disqualification for renting in the first place. And unless a lease is month-to-month, just kicking out a tenant without warning, where the lease is not in breach for non-payment, is a legal impossibility. EVERY tenant with a month-to-month lease knows that he could be told to move very suddenly. It’s up to him to protect himself by finding a place with a longer lease term — but then he may lock himself into a year to year lease and have to pay off the remainder of a term if he decides unilaterally that he would rather live elsewhere.

                      Life is full of tradeoffs and everyone has to deal with them. Your circumstances aren’t all that unique.

                      In a free society, people should be free to associate with whomever they chose and not to associate with whomever they don’t choose. Some people will make unfair choices. But there will be fewer unfair choices at less cost to society than mandatory acceptance of unacceptable behavior.

                      Curious though, what sort of workplace harassment have you endured? Harassment for what? By whom?

                    • Tiger

                      They don’t *need* to include “homosexuality is a disqualification for renting” on the lease because they are legally permitted to just serve you an eviction notice on those grounds and basically just tear up your lease.
                      The legislature debated whether that should be permissible and decided that it should be.

                      And when even the Church calls certain actions unjust discrimination against gay people, and even acknowledges that some cases of workplace discrimination qualify…
                      Shouldn’t SOMETHING be done to try to at least reduce the frequency of that injustice?
                      Even if it’s just cultural… something, anything. But we’re always told “That suggestion is not the right way to solve these real problems.” So we ask, “Alright, what would be better?” and all we hear is silence.

                      The workplace harassment I experience was both physical and verbal… and psychological in the sense that they knew I could not risk reporting it because *I* might be fired if I informed my supervisor I was being harassed for being gay. It was a justified fear because the harassment continued even when a supervisor was mere feet away and I objected to it loudly enough to be clearly overheard (and the supervisors did nothing).
                      Furthermore, if I lost my job at that time I would have been unable to pay my student loans even if I only missed a single paycheck in the process of getting a new job. I was living paycheck to paycheck and could not afford to lose my job even if it was causing me overwhelming anxiety attacks on a semi-weekly basis.

                      If I had simply had the peace of mind of knowing for sure that I would not lose my job in that call center merely for the manager being informed I was gay, I would have reported the mistreatment promptly and would have avoided months of serious depression and anxiety problems.

                      I don’t even know if the manager would have fired me for that reason, but I absolutely could not risk the possibility from a financial perspective.

                    • Rock St. Elvis

                      “they are legally permitted to just serve you an eviction notice on those grounds and basically just tear up your lease”

                      Okay, it’s official: You have no idea what you are talking about and are either making it up or are repeating what some grievance mongering ignoramus or flat-out liar has told you. A contract is a contract and is enforceable by either party against the other for violating its terms. If a lease does not define homosexuality as an event of default, it is not an event of default. Period.

                      You are rather vague about the harassment you experienced at work. Whatever it was, you should not be harassed by coworkers for any reason. If you don’t stand up for yourself, you can only speculate whether things would have been worse for you by standing up for yourself. Most managers want the workplace to run smoothly. Typically in the workplace, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

                    • Tiger

                      Did you not read the part about how I could not financially afford to risk losing that job under any circumstances?

                      I did mention that part. It was kind of a key point.

                      Losing that job would have bankrupted me. I was surviving paycheck to paycheck at the time. If I had missed even a single one I wouldn’t have been able to keep my head above water.

                      I could not risk the chance that my manager would have been one of the uncommon ones who would interpret me as being the squeaky wheel.

                      And despite my willingness to elaborate on other situations I have faced, I am not going to elaborate on this one except to say that it was clear-cut sexual harassment of both verbal and physical varieties, and the ones doing it were straight men specifically trying to make me uncomfortable because they had deduced I wasn’t as straight as them.
                      It is too sensitive a topic for me to discuss among the screaming mob here. I will not subject myself to that level of emotional abusiveness.

                    • Rock St. Elvis

                      Yes, I got that part. But because you did not take a stand with your manager, unfortunately you can now only speculate what would have happened had you done so.

                      Ironically, what you describe probably afforded you a remedy under current law, even without “sexual orientation” being enumerated as a protected category. If the guys approaching you were making unwelcome sexual advances, even in jest, that likely met the definition of a “hostile work environment.” If you had suffered a backlash from management after complaining, you may also very well have had a claim for retaliation, which is often an even better claim to have than the initial one of harassment. (You can’t be retaliated against for complaining, even if the original complaint was of questionable merit.) I suggest that if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future, contact an employment lawyer right away about your possible remedies. The law requires that you give your employer the chance to remedy the hostile environment, because employment lawsuits are only against the employer itself, not against the offending fellow employees. (You might have separate tort claims against the employees themselves but those typically aren’t worth anything money-wise.)

                      Hang in there. While I disagree with you on certain policy positions, I hope you find peace. I know what it’s like to be bullied, but it’s been years for me, and not for being gay, which I’m not. Sometimes all you can do is pray for your enemies and keep on keeping on until things get better.

              • Art Deco

                Sorry to break it to you, Tiger, but pederasty is common among homosexual men.

                • Tiger

                  Sorry to break it to you, but accusing specific individuals of it without any basis is base calumny.

                  But you know, worship Mr. Ruse hard enough and maybe he’ll make you as popular on the radio as he is.
                  Oh, wait.

                  • Art Deco

                    Which ‘specific individual’ did he ‘accuse’ ‘without any basis’?

                    • Tiger

                      Back in January or so (maybe very late December). I didn’t post in the thread, but I was reading it as it happened.

                      Mr. Ruse accused a (relatively anonymous) specific poster, who turned out to be a school teacher, of wanting to engage in pedophilic acts.

                      He didn’t even know anything about the guy except that the guy considered himself to be a celibate gay man who disagreed with him on some points of the discussion they were having.

                      But I guess when gays aren’t actual distinct individuals but some glob of “opponent” you can easily rationalize accusing any one of them of an act committed by a specific other.

                      I would have assumed Catholics would know better, being regularly subjected to the same exact BS over the same crimes even, but I was surprised and disappointed to see that that’s not always the case.

                    • Art Deco

                      You’re going to have to be more specific than that.

                    • Tiger

                      Just check the burst of homosexuality-related articles posted here around the turn of the year.

                  • Objectivetruth

                    Sorry to break it to you……but you’re not the only one in the world Tiger with sinful temptations and fallen tendencies! I don’t sit around and obsessively dwell on mine with a victim’s attitude. Do what we are all called to do: identify your fallen tendencies (in this case, homosexual attraction), and turn from it and fight them. Recognize that these tendencies will lead you to sin, jeopardizing your eternal salvation. When a homosexual thought comes to your mind, fight it. At that moment, ask Christ to help you, surrendering all to Him recognizing you can not fight it alone. At the moment you are tempted, recognize the temptation and ask our Blessed Mother for help, for purity of thought. The temptation will pass, and you will find grace at that moment that you are glad you fought it. And the beauty of it is you will find you not only can overcome it, but that you have become closer to Jesus.

                    Trust me…..this works.

                    So fight the spiritual battle, Tiger, fight!! You will soon find the temptations become less and less.

                    • Tiger

                      So you justify calumny and trying to hold people are responsible for the sins of others that they have never met or influenced by saying “everyone has temptations”?

                      Tell me how many times you were beaten for having temptations you’d never acted on.

                      Tell me how many times you were subjected to persistent physical harassment at work right in front of the supervisors, and it continued because everyone knew if you filed a complaint, you would be the one fired?

                      Tell me how many times you heard about a violent crime that you could have been the target of, but weren’t just because of a coincidence of which day it happened on.

                      Then tell me aaaaalllllll about your opinions about victimhood and being a survivor of violence.

                      Then maybe tell me how the injuries my body has suffered are all just my persecution complex and how gay people have never been subjected to mistreatment of any kind!

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Im confused……so what is it you are looking for on this website,Tiger?

                      Are you looking for pity?

                      Are you looking for justification to live the the gay lifestyle?

                      Many on this site have told you that persecuting anyone is wrong, which I agree with 100%.

                      Let me repeat: persecuting or attacking anyone is wrong, immoral and against Catholic teaching. If you were ever truly attacked, it was wrong and I’m sorry to hear that.

                      Reading your postings is very confusing. My take away is you want to remain gay, but want some type of victimhood. Which comes across very

                    • Objectivetruth

                      (Cont.) whiney.

                      So clarify for me: what is it you want?

                      Are you looking for full conversion and repentance in to the fullness of Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church?

                      Or do you wish to defend or promote a gay lifestyle or agenda?

                      Your on this site much (as many gay advocates do) and it always confuses me what your reasons are or what you are looking for.

                      Pax.

                    • Tiger

                      Sometimes we get angry because we don’t like our real actual history of being literally attacked called a “persecution complex.”
                      It doesn’t seem weird to me that people should object to having their real experiences as a human being denied and used to try to claim that person is some demented narcissist who is just trying to get attention.

                      It’s deeply offensive to me, not as a gay person, but as a human being when someone does that to me. They are denying the very existence of interactions with the world I have had, they are calling parts of my life invalid or outright lies.

                      The “…is part of the syndrome” catchphrase that’s popular around here is a particularly egregious example, because it’s saying my real pain and real struggle to heal from it is false PURELY BY ASSERTION by some armchair-psychiatrist who doesn’t even know a single thing about the person they’re “diagnosing.”

                      Hell, everyone here assumed I was gay as soon as I got upset by the disproportionately low level of anger about violence against gay people to the level of anger about other comparable or less serious issues. I said nothing at all about my own experience, except the experience of seeing lots of people rapidly change the subject rather than acknowledge the problem.

                      Sorry, short version:
                      I am vehemently objecting to actions that diminish, undermine, or deny my fundamental human dignity just because I experience same sex attraction.
                      I am not saying they were *intended* to do so, but as the one feeling the results of them, I am particularly qualified to comment on what the *effects* are, intended or not.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Sooooo……

                      See above. Why not come back home to the Church?

                    • John200

                      Dear Tiger,
                      Thank you for, “Hell, everyone here assumed I was gay as soon as…”
                      We have seen it over a hundred times. We KNEW you are homo”sex”ual as soon as…

                      Second point: After 40+ comments, you have established yourself as a drama queen. Here is a clue: when asked what you want, answer.

                      Several of your interlocutors have offered help. You act like they handed you a scorpion.

                      Do you see?

                    • Tiger

                      Why would I trust an offer of help from someone who has done nothing but disrespect and deride me and trivialize the trials I have endured and done my best to overcome?

                      And of course you knew, because only a queer would care about queers being subjected to violence, right?

                      Sorry, that’s very crude, but that is *exactly* how you’re coming across with dismissive, arrogant attitudes like the one you just demonstrated.

                      Tell me what part of defending calling people queers (as more than one of you have done), or indignantly demanding to know what’s wrong with calling people queers (which you can see if you just scroll up a little), or rapidly oscillating between claiming one wants to help and engaging in open, derisive mocking (as Objectivetruth has done all day on this page) is actually helping.

                      Tell me, when I try to explain to you what makes a survivor of violence’s reactions to things is different because we are in a life-long process of recovering for the emotional wounds that came with the physical ones, how you are helping by insisting that I’m just being a drama queen and thereby declaring that all my experiences and struggle to overcome what has been done to me is invalid?

                      That’s not rhetorical. If you have an answer, I want to hear it.

                      How are you helping me by mocking the pain that I voluntarily revealed at the request of someone who wanted to better understand it so she could reach out to people in pain better?

                      Really, if you have an answer to that question, tell me.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Tiger,

                      Go to the Courage website, couragerc.org. I was just checking it out, it really is a great site! Spend a half hour looking at what it has to offer, it can’t hurt. It’s good……a true resource and path to sainthood.

                    • Tiger

                      I may at some point… but being recommended it by someone who has repeatedly called me a whiner for explaining my experiences and concerns to another person who asked me to?

                      That makes me reluctant.
                      For all I know they put up as good a show as you do in the handful of posts where you’re being polite, but then when I go to a meeting they’ll be just like you are the rest of the time and I’ll have invested myself emotionally just to get insulted and derided.

                      All your anger toward me and disrespect and name calling doesn’t just disappear when you say you want to help.
                      I have a memory longer than that of a goldfish and I long ago learned not to trust people who are only *occasionally* friendly and helpful. They’re the kind of people who hurt you the worst if you give them a chance.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      My apologies again…..

                      I think you should look in to Courage. I’ve heard miraculous things about them.

                      Be careful…..they might turn you in to a saint!

                      Peace.

                    • Encourage14

                      Nope, you won’t get derided. I guarantee that. People do NOT go to Courage to deride people. I have met some of the most caring and sensitive people ever who are members of Courage. And they are HAPPIER ever since they got involved with Courage. The people here have not had the experience of Courage. Trust me, Tiger, its well worth turning to them. I just came from a Courage Conference and there were people there from all over the WORLD with same sex attraction, as well as family members who care, and priests and sisters who care . It was an AWESOME conference! I loved it!

                    • John200

                      I am helping you by commenting as a mature, responsible adult Roman Catholic. In making my comments, I naturally show the contrast between RC thought and yours. The faith has been available for the last 2000+ years, and there are millions like me. Today you are corresponding with a handful of us, and performing in front of many more.

                      You are learning in spite of yourself. Take it at your own speed, even if it is slow.

                      Stick around, you will see in time. Then I will not need to ask: Do you see?

                    • Tiger

                      Here’s the thing: You’re not talking to me in a vacuum.
                      You’ve been defending those who defend using slurs. Slurs specifically meant to hurt people like me.

                      The only reason I’m still listening at all is because I know there are Catholics who ARE NOT like you and the people you’re supporting. People who WILL treat me with respect, like Slainte and Encourage14.

                      You should be thanking them. If not for their contrast to your “handful” I would have already left.
                      To be blunt, if you and OT and AD were typical of the Catholic community, I would want no part of such an awful, emotionally toxic group. There is still hope, though, because I’m not convinced that you’re the norm.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      My apologies Tiger if I offended you, it was never intended.

                      Do you think Courage would be beneficial to you? It looks like a wonderful apostolate. Have you watch the movie yet?

                    • John200

                      Dear Tiger,
                      Thank you for the note. The thread is getting so long, I missed it on my first pass. But here we are, ready to go!

                      No, Tiger, here’s the thing: I am talking to you and you are using every available vacuous tactic to avoid listening.

                      Deflections ‘R’ Us.

                      To take up four of your points:
                      1. “You’ve been defending…” is a red herring. I have not been defending anyone whosoever.

                      2. “The only reason I’m still listening at all is …” another red herring. To address it in direct mode: You are not listening. You are willfully missing every point I have made to date. You are doing it to others as well, so I take no personal offense. You are having an awful time because you cannot slide your stuff past us. We have seen it all before; every scrap of it.

                      When you give up on creating a drama queen for our delectation, you might make progress. This will be the result of listening, if you start listening. Had you started a few days ago, you might have made great progress by now.

                      3. “If not for their contrast to your ‘handful’ I would have already left.” You cannot offend me by leaving. Nor is it much of a threat to me. I know you will be back (in fact, you probably won’t leave in the first place).

                      Take a deep breath, Tiger. I don’t want you to hyperventilate or, worse, to die of an overdose of truth. I am presenting truth, not forcing it on you, and a show of sympathy is within my repertoire.

                      OK, that was refreshing. Back to work – we’re Catholics and we are going to persevere to the end.

                      4. “To be blunt, … I would want no part of such an awful, emotionally toxic group. There is still hope, though, because I’m not convinced that you’re the norm.”

                      I am firmly convinced that you are not the norm. No human being wants to be part of the awful, emotionally toxic group of homo”sex”uals that you embrace so sinfully. That would be to abandon hope (since you mentioned hope). “There is still hope” because you cannot live without it – it is a theological virtue, necessary for spiritual life and, one hopes, ultimate sainthood.

                      Deflections ‘R’ Us. To be blunt, it is easy to respond to you because, no kidding, we have seen it all before. You will never get the drama queen taken seriously.

                    • MHB

                      And listen to JC too, in the above, more recent comment!
                      I agree.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      I often see Crisis Magazine as an opportunity to evangelize, John. One has to believe it’s the power of the Holy Spirit that brings so many people (such as Tiger) that live the gay lifestyle to this website. My pray for Tiger is that he/she continue to come back and maybe look closer at the Church’s teachings. Maybe even pick up the Catechism some day, and find peace with the Truths contained within its covers. The choice is Tigers, I hope he continues to (hopefully) learn more about Christ and His Church.

                    • John200

                      OT,
                      I, too, see the opportunity to evangelize. In fact, there are more pagans, cafeteria or lapsed Catholics, poorly- or un-catechized, heretics, apostates, schismatics, et al. than we know. Tiger ain’t the only one.

                      When these boys come back over and over to be corrected, you know there are more who do the same. Only a fraction of the readers make comments.

                      I have no reliable estimate of how many read our comments. But it is a lot more than 10, I’ll guarantee that.

                      So continue evangelization — all laity are called to it.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Agreed.

                    • Guest

                      Note the rabbit hole we have fallen down. That is exactly what happens in these threads. The substance is derailed. It is all about subjectivism and deflection.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Agreed.

                      Tiger is just a gay troll antagonist here to disrupt and attack. My own fault for falling for his bait.

                      As far as the article and the Catholic group Courage, they are doing the work of Christ. They are on the road to sainthood.

                      And groups like Courage are what send people like Tiger in to a demonic froth. Catholics that have chosen Christ and sanctification over the perverted, sodomistic gay lifestyle.

                    • Guest

                      It is always the same tactics. Unfortunately it works on many.

                    • slainte

                      Guest, It is an opportunity to restore those who have fallen away from Catholicism, or who have never known Christ, to experience Christ once again.
                      .
                      Deflect every arrow with Christ’s love, mercy, and compassion….someone reading these comments today or a month from now will find Christ because of these exchanges and your witness.

                    • JC

                      As “someone reading these comments a month from now,” I can say with confidence that I can’t imagine anyone finding Christ because of these exchanges. The community here on this page is the worst example of Christ’s love I have seen in a long time. These are people you’re talking to, everyone, not “agendas” and “propaganda.” A forum like this is the reason that Catholics are accused of spewing hate. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. I happened onto this article because I watched the film in question and was so moved. How could anyone watch that same film and then come here and speak to one another the way you folks do? Come Lord Jesus, and have mercy on us. We all need your grace.

                    • DE-173

                      “Note the rabbit hole we have fallen down. That is exactly what happens in these threads.”
                      Exactly what the activists intend to happen.

                    • John200

                      That is exactly the aim. This little dance is a hijack. And we know it. And Tiger knows it. And we know Tiger knows it. And Tiger knows we know he knows it. And…. enough of that.

                      Tiger is gratified by his small success in committing the hijack. A krappy little reward, hardly worthy of effort by a grownup.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Christ’s Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist will bring you all the peace and joy you are looking for, Tiger. Seriously consider/pray on coming home to the Catholic Church.

                    • Guest

                      Drama. Too much.

                    • Encourage14

                      yes, yes you are right to object to this violence against you. Bravo for saying it. Please, seek human interaction with your brothers at Courage.

                    • Tiger

                      You keep speaking in a way that disregards or outright disputes the very validity of my experiences.

                      You talk about harm to some people as if it doesn’t warrant taking care with them because some other person might have suffered a greater harm.

                      You take our answers to questions like what is causing you this pain and then twist them around to accuse us of being whiney.

                      When we tell you that you are doing something that hurts us you self-righteously ask us if we’re looking for pity or if we’re trying to be a victim.

                      You defend Art Deco’s attempt to hold every gay person morally culpable for (and possibly even directly guilty of committing) the crimes of a few.

                      Those are not behaviors that respect fundamental human dignity.

                      I have been trying to explain to you why sometimes something you might have assumed to be innocuous might actually be very painful to someone with a history that you aren’t familiar with.

                      I have been trying to tell you some of the experiences gay people have had… the sometimes traumatic, life-changing experiences that can permanently leave scars even after the wounds have healed. The experiences that are exactly why care needs to be taken with regard to them and why you can’t just expect them to respond to some particular argument the same way you, someone who’s never been literally beaten over the issue, may not expect.

                      I’m trying to communicate the bad things that are being done to us, not in hope of victim status, but in hope you will help prevent them in the future so other people don’t suffer.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Would you like to become Catholic, Tiger? There are many of us here that can offer suggestions and help you on your journey to finding peace and joy in the barque of Peter.

                    • Art Deco

                      You defend Art Deco’s attempt to hold every gay person morally culpable for

                      No such attempt exists outside your head.

                    • Encourage14

                      This is deplorable. If you went to a Courage meeting you would find compassion there among your brothers who have been also hurt and abused. Please consider it, Tiger. You deserve to be loved and respected.

              • Guest

                Jamming and deflection right from gay agenda central. No one here buys your propaganda. Play those games with those who affirm your agenda not with those who have eyes that see.

              • DE-173

                Oh please, if there’s a poster on here that could walk on eggs with army boots, and not leave a single crack, it’s Slainte. She invariably is respectful and restrained even when not afforded reciprocation.

                • Objectivetruth

                  Agreed….

                • slainte

                  DE, Thank you for being kind; but I have broken eggs in my time and I am not proud of my failings or my temper.

                  • DE-173

                    There is such a thing as “righteous anger”.

                    • slainte

                      Civility, not anger, advances rational discourse.
                      .
                      Anger expressed against one’s interlocutor would merely deflect attention away from the substantive truth of our Catholic Faith and the saving graces makes available to Tiger.

                    • DE-173

                      Where do you see “rational discourse” from the activist lobbies?

                    • John200

                      Righteous anger is a useful element of a mature Catholic’s full repertoire. You don’t need it every day, but it is another tool in the toolkit, to be used under control, in accord with the situation.

                      There are many instances in the Bible, so many I will simply assume you know the point rather than post a series of citations. Once you start looking, they are all over the place.

                      In sum, you are better of with righteous anger than without.

                    • slainte

                      Rational discourse exists when both sides have an opportunity to be heard; to voice concerns without being shouted down; to respond to each other’s positions; and to propose remedies which might assist and benefit the other while also advancing the conversation.
                      .
                      As Catholics, we have listened patiently and responded to the points raised by Tiger; we have demonstrated the Church’s open minded response to his concerns; we have explained why the Church takes the positions it does with respect to precluding sexual activities between unmarried persons. We have affirmed God’s love for him and have directed him to fellowship and affirmation within the Courage Apostolate.
                      .
                      In other words, we have done what Christ might have expected us to do as Catholics. We can’t control our interlocutors or alter their free will; only they can freely elect to change their lives for the better. But we can reasonably hope that others who read these comments might be willing to consider opening their hearts to Christ and allowing Him to give them Beauty for their ashes.

                    • DE-173

                      First of all, when pressed Tiger admitted he was exaggerating.

                      When I was younger we lived next to a German “war bride”. During one conversation with my Mother, she said that people forgot the good that Hitler did (sic).

                      I suppose my Mom should have listened patiently to the points raised by said War Bride instead of dismissing them as patently absurd.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      I don’t think Tiger’s here to be converted, Slainte.

                    • slainte

                      OT…we are responsible for delivering Christ’s message to the world, the Holy Spirit takes it from there.
                      .
                      Evangelization is a process not unlike planting seeds…sometimes very tiny mustard seeds fall on fertile soil and thrive, others take root and grow slowly, and some land on parched ground and die.
                      .
                      You, DE, AD. guest, and I have just finished planting the seeds of evangelization. Let’s pray that some of them take root.

                    • John200

                      I was sowing too. But I guess I hit the well-trod path with the unreceptive soil. Boink, bounce, boing, all the seeds got washed away. I never saw a single seedling.

                      But I am gifted with lots of seeds, so I’ll try again, later. And this here Tiger is not a lost cause, not the well-trod path, not just yet.

                    • slainte

                      If we all throw the seeds together John, something is bound to grow.
                      .
                      What many of those who troll here don’t seem to realize is that we are not paid; we are not organized; we commentators don’t even know each other personally; but we are international and we are united by a common faith which is Catholicism through which we come to know Jesus.
                      .
                      Just imagine what we could accomplish if Catholics formally organized.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Agreed.

                      And I hope for the best for Tiger.

                      The problem slainte is that many of the pro gay activists that post on this website are not here to be informed or possibly enlightened on the teachings of Christ. They are not here to engage in a civil manner. They are here to attack Christ and His bride, the Church. Quite frankly, many of the attacks I’ve seen are diabolic. Are we to respond with love and Truth? Yes. But as passionate Catholic lovers of Christ, we are to defend the faith, sometimes strongly. From the pit of prison, John the Baptist called out Herrod’s sin of adultery and need for repentance strongly and clearly. Saul of Tarsus was knocked on his backside and blinded for three days by Christ Himself for “persecuting Me.” Saints and martyrs went to horrible deaths for forcefully saying “No!” to those looking to destroy the Church.

                    • Objectivetruth

                      (Cont) the world needs to know clearly what we believe, and why. Gays that come on a Catholic website looking to mock and attack need to hear what the Church teaches, and why on homosexuality (I always try to ask “would you like to know more about Catholic teaching and why we believe what we believe?” A question that is either mocked or avoided). As Christ said, “if you are lukewarm about me, I will vomit you out!”

                    • slainte

                      OT, thank you for your insight and thoughtful comments. You are a powerful evangelist and a worthy Christian soldier.
                      .
                      I acknowledge your concern about institutionalized anti-Catholic opposition groups who visit this site on occasion. I too have witnessed how disruptive these groups can be. But I also recognize that within these groups may be one or two or maybe more people who are deeply hurting, in need of compassion, and seeking community within trolling groups because they have not yet found Catholism and Christ.
                      .
                      When I respond to a person who appears to be a troll, I assume that underneath that facade is someone that needs to meet and know Jesus. I will therefore ignore the obvious and try to reach out to all that is good and valuable in that person. I will preach Jesus as if that person specifically requested it.
                      .
                      I don’t care if I end up with egg on my face or if I dig a rabbit hole from which I have to defend the truth. If I can make the Word known to even one person who might be open to it, then the whole endeavor has been worthwhile. I hope Tiger heard what we had to say, but even if he didn’t or won’t, someone else will….because the Holy Spirit will direct persons who need to hear about God to our spirited comments.
                      .
                      So in the end it is all Good. 🙂
                      .

                    • Objectivetruth

                      Also, Slainte…….

                      When I’ve been to the Vatican, I’ve always enjoyed the beautiful dichotomy of the Swiss Guard. They wear the most beautiful dress military uniform ever seen. But in their skilled, trained hands, they grip the lethal halberd, meant to slice and decapitate. I believe that if that young man from Geneva with his weapon was the only defense between the Holy Father and a sprinting terrorist with TNT strapped to his abdomen, I believe in a blink of an eye said terrorist’s noggin would be bouncing around St. Peter’s Square like a loose soccer ball.

                      We are to be the same. Beautiful with our Christian uniform, but prepared to defend Christ, His Bride, and our Blessed Mother. With love.

                • Tiger

                  I don’t appreciate the dismissive tone.

                  I may have gotten caught up in emotion while I was writing that, but my intention was to answer the question she asked me, not accuse her of anything.

                  • slainte

                    Tiger, I didn’t interpret any of your responses as being disrespectul to me and so I didn’t take offense at anything you said. Chin up.
                    .
                    You have started an informative conversation which will assist others to understand your personal struggles and who you are as a person. The best way to overcome misunderstandings is to allow people to get to know you better…through active engagement, let people know who you are, your struggles, and your experiences in life as a Catholic experiencing same sex attraction but fully engaged in the faith.
                    .
                    Don’t be discouraged by the rocky start you may have encountered; please persevere and continue to engage with us.
                    .
                    Many posters on this forum care enough about you to want to protect you…body and soul. So you will be encouraged to embrace chastity just as anyone who is not sacramentally married would be.
                    .
                    I encourage you to keep on talking…respectfully…even when others may lash out…in those instances, take a deep breath and respond kindly.
                    .
                    Tell us what you experience in your life and let us understand better how to be the best Catholics that we can be by engaging you and helping you to be the best Catholic you can be.
                    .
                    Thanks for responding to me and helping me to understand your life experiences. I look forward to more exchanges.

                    • Tiger

                      Thank you. I’ll do what I can.

                      I don’t know that I’ll be able to stay *calm* at all times, especially when I’m feeling that my personhood is being attacked or degraded, but I’ll attempt to keep it to respectful indignation at most.

                    • slainte

                      Tiger, we on this forum want to bring you home to the fullness of the Catholic Church despite the fact that we are manifestly imperfect ourselves and fall far short of God’s expectations for us.
                      .
                      I don’t think there is a single Catholic poster on this site who would ever approve of anyone commiting or participating in violent or disrespectul acts against a person who experiences same self attraction. To affirm or support that sort of behavior is always and everywhere despicable and inconsistent with our faith.
                      .
                      We are concerned about you personally and your physical and spiritual well being. If you are engaged in the lifestyle, please allow us to help you find a better and more fulfilling reality. Please let us lead you to the Courage Apostolate. I think that you actually might find answers to some of the social justice and civil inequity issues you raise within the Courage Apostolate because the members’ experiences vis a vis mistreatment and prejudice may be consistent with what you have experienced.
                      .
                      At a minimum, I recommend you view “The Desire of the Everlasting Hills” as a first step…that is if you can figure out where it is playing because I can’t seem to find it. : )

                    • ForChristAlone

                      Tiger might even try contacting Fr Check, spiritual advisor to Courage. He is pastor of St Mary’s Church Norwalk CT

                    • Encourage14

                      No he is not the pastor but he is the Director of the International Courage Apostolate and a very kind man.

                    • Encourage14

                      You can find it by just typing Desire of the Everlasting Hills documentary in your search box and download it for free! Its worth watching> Please do!

                  • DE-173

                    I don’t appreciate the dismissive tone.

                    Then stop contriving offense.

              • Encourage14

                Did you ask slainte who was meant by “they”?
                “Get with the program” is a put down, Tiger. Pardon me, but I am trying to figure out who has harmed you. If anyone did physical harm to you, as you mentioned above, you are due a strong apology.

              • Encourage14

                Yes, I think slainte meant people with human dignity. I didn’t take that comment the same way as you did.
                “Get with the program” is a put down, in case you are not aware of that Tiger. Just like someone using the term “queer”, saying “get with the program” is just like saying, “Hey stupid”.
                I am ending my participation for now with a reminder that if we are not seeking the spirit of kindness, gentleness, charity or humility, then we may as well not speak at all.

        • Watosh

          This is why they will never be content no matter how much acceptance they get in society. This is why they will never stop frying to force their morality on society.

          I might add it seems like many assume that those of us who believe homosexual behavior is disordered therefore “hate” homosexuals. To believe that our choices are we must accept homosexuality as normal or else “hate” homosexuals is a strategy employed to make those of us who believe homosexual behavior is not normal look bad and be put on the defensive. But that is one of the tactics employed by the liberal agenda.

          • DE-173

            I hate theft, but I don’t hate thieves and I especially don’t hate kleptomaniacs.

            • Watosh

              Commendable.

            • Thomas

              Let’s leave the Vatican out of this.

              • DE-173

                Let’s leave the trolls out of this.

          • Guest

            Amen amen amen

    • Scott W.

      Homosexualism is for practical purposes a false religion. And one that won’t tolerate backsliding.

      • DE-173

        When I was a kid and used to watch “The Ten Commandments”, I used to think, thank God we’re past the days of golden calves..

        Now we have twin golden calves, sex and government.

        • Cap America

          In actuality, these are in 2014 combined. Liberals view sexual pleasure as the main good in life, and so they advocate policies that further sexual pleasure among all ages, groups, etc. I even tend to blame them for the modern ethos that ends up, tragically, in single motherhood—and this is a devastating social reality.

          • DE-173

            I tend to see it as a hydra, but I get your point.

    • mitch64

      I am one of those “happy, well adjusted gays,”(as happy and well adjusted as anyone can be in a fallen world) and I come here to read other’s opinions and occasionally chime in when someone’s really truly bizarre statements go unchallenged. I am so as not to start a flame session from all of you, and admitted Cafeteria Catholic and am very interested in what is going on in the Church now and theology. I would get bored with just reading opinions of people who think like i do (apparently that isn’t true for everyone here…) and quite frankly find the far left sites, gay or otherwise, some of their commentators just as fringe as some posters here. I watched the whole video and I actually am happy that these lost folks feel at home and happy. I wouldn’t want to dictate to others how to live their lives anymore then I would want them to dictate to me. I do think the porny looking guy had a sex compulsion and he has a better life now. He would have had that compulsion gay or straight but he found peace and he is helping others good for him.

      • AugustineThomas

        Lust, homosexual or heterosexual, is a sin. It’s that simple. There’s no debate.
        The Jews were still human beings no matter how big the Nazi majority that said they weren’t. Majorities can’t vote for new truths.

        • mitch64

          I wasn’t debating that. I totally agree. I don’t understand the Nazi part of your post, were you responding to me?

          • AugustineThomas

            Sorry for the misunderstanding. Glad we agree on that basic point.

            God bless you!

      • Dennis

        “I wouldn’t want to dictate to others how to live their lives anymore then I would want them to dictate to me.”

        I do not think you actually mean that. Otherwise, you would not condemn nor desire punishment for rapists, murderers, drunken drivers, etc. The question is whether there is a proper and good way to live, and what is the objective basis for deciding what is proper and good? As a Catholic, you have a basis for knowing, which is the dogmatic teaching of the Church regarding faith and morals. If you do not believe it is dogmatic, please explore the issue further and avoid having your feelings and personal desires decide for you. God bless!

        • mitch64

          Thanks and I appreciate that Dennis but there are more then personal feelings and desires involved in my decision. Gay people like straight people examine their lives and pray on this subject. My answer is different from the people in this film, yet it does not mean I don’t respect or begrudge their decision..(and please I don’t want to get involved in a discussion of the Church’s teaching on homosexuality…I am responding to the poster above thought that all gay people would revile these people’s choice in life.)

          Also when I was talking about dictating other choices in life which don’t involve criminal acts..(of the legal kind.) including if they are going to be celibate or not. They have to find that answer between themselves and their faith. There have been many times in my life where I went through periods and abstaining and it is incredibly freeing allowing you to focus your energy on other things. It would not be a lifetime choice for me but I am saying I can see where others would choose to do so, and I respect people who follow the Church’s teachings.

          • Dennis

            mitch64, I appreciate where you are coming from and want to thank you for your respectful tone. I have no plan on discussing what the Church teaches regarding homosexuality, per se. I responded because there is an inconsistency in your thought and I hoped that by pointing it out, you may explore more fully what the Church teaches and why. The inconsistency lies in belonging to a faith which claims authority from God Himself and then rejecting that authority by picking and choosing which tenants you agree with. Either you are making yourself a higher moral authority than God or you do not believe the claims of the Church, in which case it seems to be a strange choice to belong to it.

            As for dictating life choices, you speak of criminal acts “of the legal kind”, but who is to say which acts should be criminalized and what should be allowed? It is in accord with the faith of many Muslims to kill Christians who do not convert, so should that act be criminalized or not? This seems to be a silly question, but based on the statement you had made, I think a legitimate one.

            Also, I apologize for not being more clear. I did not mean to say that ONLY feelings and desires were involved in your life decisions. What I meant to convey is that it can be a tendency of people to let their thinking be led by these feelings and desires. In other words, since conclusion C goes against their feelings and desires, they want it to be false and find imaginary wiggle room in premises A and B to make it false. Since I:
            A) believe there is a God
            B) believe Jesus is God
            C) believe Jesus founded a Church which He protects from errors in regards to faith and morals
            D) believe the Catholic Church is that church.
            Therefore I E) adhere to all of the Church’s moral and faith teachings

            Too many Catholics do not want E to be true, so they reject C or D but then never explain why they would want to belong to such a Church.

            I understand from personal experience how hard lonliness can be, and do not fault people for wanting to find companionship (we are all fallen in some ways), but as Catholics, we believe there are correct and incorrect ways to find/explore/experience companionship. In my life, I have had to fight many battles not to inappropriately seek companionship and have not won all of those battles.

            Once again, I apologize if anything I said comes across as offensive. If you had not put forward that you were Catholic, I probably wouldn’t have responded. I just know there is so much truth and freedom in following all the Church teaches (even if it is difficult) that I wanted to try to communicate it to you and hopefully prod you to explore they why’s behind the what’s even more deeply than you have.

            I am afraid I will not be online for awhile, so do not feel the need to respond unless you feel it would benefit others. I wish you the best on your journey!

            • mitch64

              Dennis, thank you, nothing you said came across as offensive. I disagree on some things you have posted and I freely admit that I am what posters would call a “Cafeteria Catholic.” As you, I have no desire to get into a debate on that topic. My only point at first when responding to this story was because of a snarky post and to say that not all gay people are angry that other gay people would choose celibacy as a correct choice for them.

              I appreciate your respectful tone and think that you are credit to the Church. I do want to say that my relationship and my life are not to stave off “lonliness,’ When I was younger and got into the relationship I was too busy doing the things that late 20 early 30 people do, work, sports, friends, to be lonely. I am now at an age and with work and have people in my life where I have no fear of lonliness and would not have to be in a relationship to be happy. I am in one because I want to be in one (rightly or wrongly and I know which side you think that is on : ) )

              Have a great weekend.

    • Guest

      Yes, the dictatorship of relativism will swarm the site.

  • RC

    Thank you. As another Gay/Same Sex Attracted man who has firmly returned to the Catholic faith after years of trying to balance the two; You simply cannot live in both worlds. I too have lost friends who do not understand why I listened to and chose the call of God. I have even been shocked by Catholics and non-Catholics who tell me that the Catholic Church hates people like me. When I look back over the past 20 years, God was always there I just was not open to him. The peace and joy I experience every day now that was always just out of reach in the past is beyond belief sometimes. I cannot imagine nor do I ever desire to return to that lifestyle.

    • fredx2

      If you meet Catholics that tell you the church hates people like you, refer them to the Catechism, paragraph 2358. They have some reading to do, and then they have to go to confession.

      • Cap America

        good. see above, I mean, see infra.

    • Guest

      You are a great witness. Thank you.

    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

      A Catholic who expresses hatred for a homosexual person is just as ignorant of the Faith as a homophile Catholic.

      • Cap America

        Not to distract, but in my experience I’ve never met a genuine, church-going Catholic who hated homosexuals. Just my two cents.

        • ForChristAlone

          You’re absolutely right. What sense would it make to hate anyone because of disordered passions. If such were the case, we’d have heard of people hating those who crave food but resist the temptation to overeat. If you acknowledge the fact of original sin and concupiscence, it would make no sense at all to hate people with same sex attraction. God knows we’re all in need of healing. Problems arise when those so afflicted do not acknowledge the need for healing and redemption of their bodies.

        • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

          Actually, I never have either.

          • CadaveraVeroInnumero

            So what was the point of making your point?

        • RC

          Yes the key is “genuine.” It took me a long time to realize they also need to do some soul searching. Some understood and some did not. My responsibility is to remain as a role model for them and anyone else searching for the truth.

        • Tiger

          You’re lucky. They’re unpleasant for even straight people to be around.

        • Guest GBOP LHUA

          Sadly, it is the rhetorical/ political mood music beloved of a great many web-worlders who really ought to know better .. and of not a few who neither want to know better nor be told that there is something ‘better’ to be known – in the Faith.

          GBOB LHUA

    • DE-173

      Welcome home.

    • slainte

      RC, I am glad that you are among us as a fellow Catholic.
      .
      What more can individual Church parishes, and lay Catholics, do to help persons suffering from same sex attraction to return to God and turn away from the “lifestyle”?
      .
      Is more Catholic fellowship needed (ie., coffee hours, book clubs, gospel study groups)?

      • Rubyroad

        couragerc.net (theCourage website) has an online “chat room” called listserve for those who have no Courage chapter in their area. For those who do, that is their resource.
        Courage is a wonderful organization and the Church ‘s best kept secret. Maybe this new film will spread the message.

        • Objectivetruth

          Excellent.

      • Encourage14

        Thank you very much for your concern and interest in helping.I am a member of Encourage and I attended the 2014 Courage Conference as a parent of a loved one who is attracted to the same sex. Following are a few ways that you can help.
        1. Form a prayer apostolate in your church and pray for the virtue of chastity to grow and for the Courage Apostolate to grow. Have Mass offered for the members of Courage and Encourage.

        2. As often as you can, place a notice in your church bulletin with a short explanation of the Courage/Encourage Apostolate, with a contact number for your local Courage chapter, if there is one. Very important to post this website in your bulletin, http://www.courage.net and on your parish website.

        4.Call the Courage Office in Norwalk, Ct and ask what you can do to help them.

        5. If you do not have a priest chaplain for Courage and Encourage in your area, write to your bishop and ask him to appoint someone. This chaplain will need volunteer assistance in promoting the ministry.
        5. Ask your bishop to send a different priest to the Annual Courage Conference every year. It is the best and most inspirational experience for learning about Courage and Encourage and the needs of the community.

        5. Put notices about the Courage Conference in your church bulletin each year and request that the bishop send a notice about the conference to every pastor for notification in their bulletins, and to the diocesan newspaper and the various diocesan offices, especially the Offices of Religious Education, Evangelization, Family Life, Pro-Life for their newsletters and email notices.

        6. Get a copy of Desire of the Everlasting Hills and show it. Have a discussion with parishioners. It will help, if possible, to have a priest who is supportive of Courage present to answer questions, and correct erroneous thinking if it arises in the discussion.
        7. Host study groups of the Theology of the Body and learn the biblical basis for our Catholic Theology.
        8. Host a book discussion: books are recommended on the Courage website. Ask the Courage office for a recommendation for a book for parish discussion purposes.
        9. Remember that distressed parents need help too. Many families are divided or abandoned by their families over this and need the love and support of their church. Refer them to Encourage where they will find understanding and support.
        10. Obtain copies of two Courage pamphlets for adults and youth. You can download them from the Courage website. Obtain the pamphlet:
        Homosexuality and Hope from the Catholic Medical Association throughout your diocese. Distribute these pamphlets throughout your diocese.
        Love and forgive those who persecute you for your efforts on behalf of Courage/Encourage and offer your sufferings up for the growth of the Apostolate.

        • Encourage14

          Correction: http://www.couragerc.net
          I missed the rc in the address above, sorry about that.

          • slainte

            Thanks Encourage14, your suggestions are excellent and provide a concrete way for Catholics to help others who may be experiencing or supporting those who experience same sex attraction to live in accord with Church teachings.
            .
            I wish you and your daughter every happiness and will offer prayers for you both. Your daughter is lucky to have such a caring mom.

            • Encourage14

              The Desire of the Everlasting Hills documentary can be googled and viewed for free.
              Thank you for your prayers, Slainte! We depend on them. Spread the seeds as far and wide as you can! God bless you!

    • ForChristAlone

      You are brother, as are those still suffering with this demon. All are gift.

    • Tony

      RC — thank you for your witness.
      When we see someone we love falling prey to sin, the easy way out is to shrug and pretend that it’s all right. It’s that same easy way that we often use for ourselves. But real love does not do that.

      True love is Christ’s love. When we are faced with evil, we are called to condone nothing, tolerate much, and forgive all. The modern world, so lacking in love, condones much, tolerates little, and forgives nothing. It is a lonely, decadent, intolerant, unforgiving world we have, because very few of us are in the habit of the severe examination of conscience that Catholics used to have to practice as a matter of course.

    • P2H

      Thank you for this post RC ! I pray that God continues to bless you. I have lost my daughters to the church ( now 18 and 19 respectively) because despite my trying, in their minds the homosexual act and lifestyle …”is the person’s choice and that it is ” therefore its not wrong if its not hurting anybody else”. ANd, its impossible to talk to them about it anymore, it just pushes them further away. My job as their dad is to get their souls to heaven and because of the gay agenda and its never ending assault on what is true they have now fallen victim and no longer attend mass. I wish I had been more demanding in who I let them “hang out” with as they started to reach those influential years but I fell prey to the thought oft expressed that they should not be sheltered. By was that a bad choice.

      • ColdStanding

        I recommend to you a novena of novenas to the Holy Spirit.

        If you do not pray, you will not be saved.

        If you do not pray for others, they will not be saved.

        Therefore, place not your trust in your own efforts. Instead, humbly petition Our Lord at the foot of the Cross that the Holy Spirit renew those whom you love.

        • P2H

          Thank You and Pax CHristi.

      • Encourage14

        Correction. http://www.couragerc.net
        Sorry about that!

    • Guest GBOP LHUA

      God bless and keep you, dear witness to the Faith. Sadly, even in this remarkably good article – let alone on the tongues of the more mind-blinded motor-mouthed ‘conservative’ commentators – there seems to be an improper equation of same-gender sexual attraction, affection, association (etc) with the political/ pornographic life chosen by many (most) to live out their sense of being ‘Gay’ (i.e. as free from the restraints of an ordinary, normal, straight lived life – even while longing for an accepted place in its moral restraints .. in theory or spirit). This simple, if abundantly factual, equation falls short of the real freedom, human dignity, and moral sensibility of not a few men and women sharing this attraction, affection, association – or worse going it utterly alone – and ignores the equally abundant facts that opposite-gender sexual attraction, affection, association had long since rejoiced in the pornographic style of live .. and long before ‘Gay Lib became the political force it is today.

      A puzzle ripe for Chesterton to consider, or at least for Father Brown to frown at.

      GBOP LHUA

      • ForChristAlone

        We can only pray that all will come to understand and live out the right order of the meaning of the body.

    • CHBrighton

      But you can’t prove there is such a being as a god. You can prove that a person loves another person of the same sex.

  • Art Deco

    Oh no. Another 700 comment extravaganza (depending on how many trolls are dispatched by the sorosphere).

    • ForChristAlone

      I am resolved to resist the temptation as it is fruitless.

  • DE-173

    3..2…1..

  • slainte

    Desire of the Everlasting Hills,
    Fruitful womb of God,
    Garden of repose,
    Longing of our hearts…
    .
    Your Creation is a prism
    that reflects thousands of glimpses
    into Your Sacred Heart.

    I do not need to look hard or far…
    Your Sacred Heart beats all around me,
    inviting me with fiery abandon.
    .
    Nothing about You is tame.
    Seeking You
    then finding You
    leaping across the hills and valleys into my life
    You pursue me
    .
    Your Passion burns brightly in my garden.
    You are the sunrise
    You are the rose
    You are the dappled light through the trees.
    .
    You are on fire in my heart
    and I am on fire for love of you. How is this possible?
    How is it possible that You, the Son of God,
    are alive in my heart?
    .
    Your Divine Passion is Living water
    Flowing from Your Sacred Heart
    Into the thrum of Creation
    Flowering, unfolding in our hearts
    Creating us moment by moment
    in Your Image
    Alive, resplendent, responsive to Your touch
    .
    Fountain of eternal forgiveness
    Desire of the everlasting hills,
    I come to you again and again
    .
    for Your Mercy
    for Your Shalom
    for Your Love
    .
    Give me Your Heart for mine,
    that I may love You with Your own exquisite love,
    that I may love others as You love me.
    .
    Your gift is complete.
    Your Mercy endures forever.
    .
    Amen.
    .
    Elena M. Cambio, http://youtu.be/-6CdaPwmCJg

  • Mr. Mattson made a choice for himself – one that he is free to make – in order to conform to the teachings of his church. He is now chaste. In a comment on his original First Things piece he claimed to be living with a “disorder” and that is unfortunate. It is simply inconsistent with the overwhelming consensus of science and a mountain of evidence that sexual orientation is a continuum and a natural variant of sexuality in nature. Being gay is not a bad habit. Choosing not have sex is not “sexual sobriety.” It is a religious choice which is one’s to make.

    People live a lifetime without ever tasting roast pork or steamed lobster. I suppose that I was lucky in that I was with the love of my life for over 30 years and we did everything together. My mother adored my partner which gave me great pleasure. In retrospect it would be hard to give that up.

    • mitch64

      I think that’s the point, not everyone has to have a partner/wife/husband whatever you want to call it, to be happy. I think one of the themes I got from this video, especially from the woman, is that they were looking for validation and to be accepted. I have no doubt the guy was not cruising the Coliseum on Good Friday of all days, just for sex ( sex is good but there are other things to do and see in Rome then that…) but to validate himself, his attractiveness, whatever, but validation. A lot of people, gay or straight need that (actually we all do at some level.) They found it in a healthy way in the Church and in God.

      “Being gay is not a bad habit.” No but I think the guy,( Paul right?) was acting out his homosexuality in a very bad, compulsive, unhealthy way. Which, truth be told many gay men do. But many straight guys and girls do also. Once again it is looking for validation from others which this stems from.

    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

      Here we go… to “abstain” from anal sex is just like not eating pork. That is how absurd our cultural thinking has become.

      • Not what I wrote. By the way gay sex is not limited to anal sex.

        Abstaining from gay sex and abstaining from the consumption of shellfish, pork or the combination of meat and dairy are both religious dictates. They are rarely combined.

        • Guest

          That is like saying being against murder is a religious dictate. You attempt to marginalize the truth, but it does not work here.

        • DE-173

          By the way gay sex is not limited to anal sex.
          It’s not sex at all.

          • Objectivetruth

            Amen.

          • John200

            Precise, concise, unanswerable.

            Our homo”sex”ual friends habitually either ignore the point or jam. Up to this point on the thread, they seem to be more mindful of their manners than usual.

            I got a feeling you are making a dent.

            • Tiger

              It’s cute how you keep trying to popularize your little punctuation shibboleths when even your compatriots clearly think they’re far to ridiculous to use themselves.

              • John200

                Perhaps you are referring to the quotes in homo”sex”ual? It’s cute that you find them unanswerable.

                They fit perfectly, since homo”sex”ual activity is not sex. So I’ll keep it up. You just stick around and enjoy the free education.

                We are patient babysitters. Now run along and troll the thread for as long as it takes you to get it.

                • Tiger

                  Who said anything about “unanswerable”?

                  I observed that your usage of them (which even you would surely acknowledge is atypical, even if you feel it is reasonable) resembles the usage of a shibboleth, but in an environment where you are the only one doing so.

                  I apologize for being disrespectful, however. I probably should have held my tongue since I didn’t have any suggestions to provide.

          • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

            Exactly! It’s not sex any more than bestiality is sex.

        • Asmondius

          You are confusing a sign on the store window that states ‘Shirts and shoes required’ with the penal code for murder.

          Dietary laws and moral laws are two different things.

    • Aldo Elmnight

      “a natural variant of sexuality in nature.”
      So are you saying homosexuals are just animals and are not called or should not aspire to something higher when they live their lives?

      • So are you saying homosexuals are just animals and are not called or
        should not aspire to something higher when they live their lives?

        No.

    • ColdStanding

      The Church’s Dogma* of free will is not a trump-all card that can be played to dismiss the obligations we are all under. One of many ways in which we are obliged, in justice, is to give to God His due worship. You are free to not render to Him His due and He is free to take this to mean you are telling Him to get stuffed and punt your soul into hell with your body to follow at a later time. Therefore, you are free to do as you like, but you are not free of, in the sense of exempt from, the consequences of your choice.

      You have freely chosen your course of action. You are not free from the consequences. Hear and repent. You are on the road to perdition.

      *As opposed to the secular’s Procrustean distortion of this soul-saving truth.

      • You have freely chosen your course of action. You are not free from the
        consequences. Hear and repent. You are on the road to perdition.

        Only if one believes in your specific flavor of religion. You may be right and you might be wrong.

        • John200

          No, it depends on more than whether you believe the truth. It depends on the truth, and whether you have been exposed to it, and understood it, and finally, assented to it.

          You have repeatedly been exposed to the truth. You are a little slow about the rest of the process, but you come here to improve. Keep at it, you might suddenly wake up.

          To you it will feel very sudden. If this is not clear to you, leave it alone. But keep trolling CrisisMag, you are getting better even as you pretend the opposite.

        • ColdStanding

          The entailment of the philosophical stance you propose is monstrous. You would have mankind, who amply demonstrates by his actions an ardent desire for the truth, live in a universe where the truth is unknowable.

          There is truth. We are made to know the truth. Therefore the truth is knowable. That the truth is acquired at a high cost does not mean that it can not be acquired.

          Nobody is fooled by you sophistry, least of all you. All know why it is that you cling to the absurdity you have uttered: it is a fig leaf over your immodesty. This is true regardless of whether or not you assent to the life-giving truths of the Christian Catholic faith because it is naturally knowable.

        • DE-173

          And yet despite the masthead, you are here, peddling something you know won’t sell to this audience, not to persuade, just to intrude, to demand attention with inanity.

          So much for the satisfying life you have. As Dr. Williams said, most of us wouldn’t even know how to find sites that would be hospitable to you.

          • Objectivetruth

            It always baffles me how much time homosexual/gay advocates spend on orthodox Catholic websites. I spend zero time on gay agenda websites. Couldn’t name one. Once you’ve found the Truth, you only want the Truth.

    • Objectivetruth

      Go see the movie……..

    • slainte

      Mr.Hart,
      .
      Nature is purposeful and operates by preordained design. By virtue of the
      complementarity of a man and a woman’s sexual organs, the act of sexual
      intercourse becomes the means by which nature causes the procreation of
      children and thus the survival of the human species.
      .
      As a secondary but equally intentional consequence of the sexual act between a
      man and a woman, nature causes those who have united in one flesh to become
      emotionally and mentally bonded which then facilitates the couple remaining
      together to raise the children to whom they give birth.
      .
      Any sexual act which does not correspond to the purposeful act of procreation
      between a man and a woman is not ordered by nature and is thus “disordered”. The acts which flow from same sex attraction are thus disordered.
      .
      No mountain of alleged evidence to which you aver, Mr. Hart, can or will alter
      that which is patently false and make it true. Sexual acts between persons of
      the same sex which cannot be ordered toward procreation of the species are not in accord with nature.
      .
      As to those of us Catholics who manifest sins other than the acts that flow
      from same sex attraction, we fall short of God’s grace and offend Him when
      we fail and refuse to love our brothers or sisters who may suffer from same sex
      attraction. We are all sinners in need of redemption. Love the sinner; hate the sin.

      • ForChristAlone

        And, what you have so ably presented to Mr Hart should not be construed as to suggest that these ideas originate in the Catholic Church as part of her dogma or doctrine. These ideas belong in the domain of the natural law which law, because it is understood as such by the Catholic Church, is then incorporated into her teaching. The natural law is within the capacity of all rational beings to comprehend and whether a person is Catholic or not is independent of such comprehension.

      • John200

        JP II smiles down from heaven. Here is proof that he didn’t waste his time writing Theology of the Body.

    • CadaveraVeroInnumero

      YOU WROTE: . It is simply inconsistent with the overwhelming consensus of science
      and a mountain of evidence that sexual orientation is a continuum and a
      natural variant of sexuality in nature.

      The pivot. The crux. The fork in the road. Until the “other” side relinquishes this “scientific” fantasy there is no honest conversation. No mutual affirmations,. No meeting of minds.

      You need to write a post on how this notional notion of a “sexual continuum” inserted itself into the conversation: its history; the uses it has been put to to advance a cultural/political agenda. How did the assumed science behind it accumulate the so-called evidence? What criteria is laid down to identify proper evidence. Where, when was this done, and by whom?

      Please, don'[t expect us to yield to the notion without presenting its justification for yakking it up in this dialogue. If we cannot accept the notion of the “continuum” where does that leave this conversation. Or, can an honest conversation be had without its mangled lexical confusion?

      Then, there are those hefty sex elephants sitting on the ends of said continuum: the balking presence of pedophilia, incest, and B/S&M, with their very vocal allies advocating their “rights” for recognition of being legitimate sexual “identities”.

    • slainte

      DavidHart, there is a love that is deeper and greater than any love you will ever experience on this earth and this love is a person whose name is Jesus Christ. He created the Catholic Church and is the head of its mystical body. He promised He would never leave us and kept His promise by sending us the Paraclete. He makes Himself available to us as earthly manna to satisfy our physical hunger and as heavenly manna to sustain our souls and to refresh and reconnect us to Him by partaking of His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in Holy Eucharist.
      .
      He is the fulfillment of every prophecy of the Old Testament.
      .
      He transforms minds; He softens hearts; He repairs and makes whole the broken. He forgives the sins of the fallen and renews and restores the lives of those who have lost hope. He is present in every foxhole. He dries our tears and helps us to get back on our feet when we have fallen. He is present to the distraught and He brings joy into the life of those who freely invite Him into their lives. He is real and He is present. For those of us who have come to know Him, there is no other. He knew you before you were born and He will meet you when you draw your last breath.
      .
      He affirms your dignity as a person whether you are same sex attracted or opposite sex attracted. He loved you before all time and created you in His own image. Please open your heart to Him and His Catholic Church.

    • Asmondius

      ‘….sexual orientation is a continuum and a natural variant of sexuality in nature.’
      Natural selection says otherwise.

  • Tiger

    Curious how sexual dysfunction among heterosexuals is just sexual dysfunction, but sexual dysfunction among homosexuals is automatically the result of their homosexuality and would never have occurred were they heterosexual.

    • Art Deco

      Homosexuality is sexual dysfunction.

      • Tiger

        Irrelevant to my argument. I’ll rephrase it just to keep things from being sidetracked.

        Curious how sexual dysfunction among heterosexuals is just sexual dysfunction, but sexual dysfunctions [besides homosexuality] among homosexuals is automatically treated as being the result of homosexuality and that they would never have occurred were the individual heterosexual…despite those same sexual dysfunctions being patently apparent in many heterosexuals.

        • Nick

          Take promiscuity for example, heterosexual promiscuity is much more limited due to natural reproductive limitations and women’s increased inherent desire for strong romantic relationships. Homosexuality by nature allows gay men to have literally thousands of sexual partners.

          • ForChristAlone

            Except that homosexuality is in itself, by definition, contrary to the natural law and hence ALWAYS dysfunctional. Ask homosexuals themselves and the ones in touch with the truth will admit to this. Those are the ones in this film and many others who have had their right reason restored and healed. The others continue to be deluded and are motivated still, not by reason and right judgement but by passion – what St Paul refers to as the flesh.

            • Tiger

              It does not follow that because one thing is dysfunctional, it must be the cause of all other present dysfunctions, or even be inextricably linked to them.

              • Guest

                It certainly does follow and follows quite logically.

            • GeorgeG64

              Is that like the natural law of priest not raping children of do they get a pass on that one?

          • mitch64

            Nick this is quite true…(the dysfunction part of your post.) But the interesting answer would be…why? I would take it that you would say it is because the Church says this is a sin and intrinsically disordered, good enough but there may be a variety of other reason’s, such as growing up hiding your sexuality, having no role healthy role models (when I was growing up the only gay on TV was Paul Lynde, and while I love Uncle Arthur I never wanted to grow up to be a cackling queen) etc. Many gay people self medicate because of this etc, etc.

            I do hate the promiscuity in the gay world (and I was certainly not a monk in my youth) and unfortunatley we need to get set for a new generation of serioncoversions with young people who didn’t grow up with AIDS (once again they need good solid role models and older guys to rein them in) but people who throw out that thousands number really ruin their own argument. No one on earth could have “thousands,” of sex partners. Hundreds is really pushing it. I agree with you that part of this reason is that its too guys and we all know that guys are good to go anything, unlike having a woman to “put the breaks on.”

            • ForChristAlone

              Have you looked into anonymous homosexual sex i.e. “glory holes”? Yes, thousands of sexual “partner” is NOT an infrequent occurrence.

              • mitch64

                I stick by my statement that most gay people do not participate in “thousands,” of sexual partners..how would one have time to decorate their fabulous houses? I use humor not to insult you but just to let you know that hysterically inflated numbers and pearl clutching is not going to add anything to a discussion of gay promiscuity. As a matter of fact it makes it easy for people to dismiss the topic. Gay promiscuity is an issue and its a very real one on its own, it does not need outrageous numbers. But if you are going to talk about it going forward you should drop the “glory hole,” thing from you discussion…most of “hooking,” up takes place online with apps like “Grinder,” etc. It also takes place on places like Craigslist where if you looked (and I would advise you not to) you will see most of the posts are from married men looking to hook up anonymously…(one reason people dispute the 2 percent gay number..a lot of guys think they arent gay as they are married.)

                Once again, I am not disputing that this is a problem, but again, does not need any lurid elaborations to make it real.

              • Tiger

                Wait wait wait, before things start being asserted as facts (yet with funny little clauses like “not infrequent”), can we get an ontological groundwork set?

                What frequency or percentage would constitute “not infrequent” for the purpose of this discussion, for instance?

                • ForChristAlone

                  Most of us here know what goes down in this matter….pointless to beat a dead horse

                  • Tiger

                    No, I’m sorry.

                    You made the claim that it “is NOT an infrequent” occurrence.

                    What did you mean by “not infrequent”?

                    Whether your statement is even true or not depends entirely on what you meant by that phrase.

                    You’re trying to argue by assertion rather than with reason and facts. There’s no point trying to shut down the line of argument the moment someone pointed that out. The better course of action is to either concede that you do not have evidence to support the claim or, preferably, make a better claim.

                    “Nudge, nudge, Know what I mean, eh?” is NOT an argument.

                    • Guest

                      The facts are homosexual acts are evil. The inclination is unnatural. All that flow from that is not consistent with health or good morality. Why do you argue against it?

        • Guest

          Your premise is faulty. You attempt to compare heterosexuality with deviant sexuality and then draw erroneous conclusions. It does not follow.

          It is like comparing normal sight with blindness and claiming both are health.

          • Tiger

            No… I said sexual dysfunction like sex addiction and the like occur among heterosexuals and are viewed as independent problems, but when they occur among homosexuals it is just automatically assumed that homosexuality is directly the cause of such dysfunctions.

            In one case it is “with, therefore because of” and in the other it’s rightly viewed as a distinct problem that may have a certain degree of co-morbidity with other problems but is not assumed to be purely a consequence of the other.

            By itself it’s just a logical error, but often it’s used to suggest that “not being gay” will somehow solve having an addictive personality or some other dysfunction that is in all probability a separate problem the person has, which simply exacerbates or flavors the expression of the other problem.

            • Guest

              The syndrome of homosexuality has many facets. Again, to compare it with normal sexuality is an error.

    • JP

      Men, by their nature, are promiscuous. It matters not what their choice of partners are (male or female). Male promiscuity, traditionally, has been more of a problem than female promiscuity. Ergo, your point is, well, pointless. However, homosexuality is, theologically disordered. Both, however, are sinful. Heterosexual males may find comfort that the desire women and not men. However, their Sin is just as bad as homosexual sodomy.

      As a caveat, promiscuity, and immodesty preceded the societal problems of homosexuality. Immodesty and promiscuity became more of problem with the advent of the Pill. The pathologies that followed are well known. Adultery destroys the family and makes a mockery of the Sacrament of Matrimony. Homosexuality in this context only puts a final stake in a Christian institution that was already in decay.

  • miller22

    Austin — this is nonsense.

    • ForChristAlone

      It is not.

      • Matthew 6:5

        Yes it is!

    • Guest

      Why?

  • Tony

    It is a phenomenal film.
    Beware, in these comments, of the Potemkin Village — that was the pretty village set up in order to impress gullible well-wishers of the Soviet regime. A fine author in our times calls it “double scripting.” There’s the life that well-wishers are allowed to see, the one with the cuddles and the picket fence, and the life that is really lived. The promoters of Potemkin Village know that if you really knew what went on, you would be horrified. Yet the promoters do talk to one another, and people who are paying attention can listen to what they say.

    • johnalbertson

      Point well taken and I agree. However: the Potemkin Village goes back to the governor of south Ukraine and Crimea, Grigory Potemkin, who tried to impress the Empress Catherine II in 1787.

  • All behavior is a choice. Once made justification rules….

  • Rwin

    I have looked on the film’s website and there are no listings for when and where the film is going to be shown. Would love some details. The trailer was pretty compelling.

    • somnipod

      I hate to be cynical but does.anybody really think the gay lobby will allow this movie to be shown?
      I can see the headlines now “Homophobic movie against equality shown by X movie company. Boycotts planned”…

      The truth about the homosexual lifestyle is a guarded shibboleth by the secular pagans.
      Soon, the Courage apostlate will be attacked by groups like GLAAD

      • ForChristAlone

        Catholic parishes are likely to show this film.

        • Matthew 6:5

          So no one will see it!

          • MHB

            the link to it is in the first sentence of the article. Why don’t you watch it before you comment on who will see it? it’s very well done!

    • MHB

      You can download it for free. Just google the title and you’ll find it there for viewing.

  • Ed McDonald

    Does confessing all ten commandments mean that he has committed murder and has not been discovered by the legal system?

    • ForChristAlone

      A full examination of conscience will reveal that murder is not the only way one violates the fullest sense of the 5th commandment. That is why Catholics submit themselves to these examinations of conscience before confession of sins to a priest.

      • Ed McDonald

        yes…. I understand that, and thank you for the comment. I am just curious what he meant by that particular way of putting it. I have never heard that expression, and I feel like he was trying to imply something more serious…. but I understand your point of correction. Thanks.

    • GeorgeG64

      Yes, but the Catholic Church doesn’t believe it has to follow the laws, just ask Bernard Law of Boston. That man should be getting raped in prison right now but instead he has a cushy job in Rome.

  • Manolo Hurtado

    Tiger. I think you should look at it this way ..you stated you did agree with the catholic church on its teachings ..that should be your life guide. Is there people that are insesisitive or not very compassionate.. yes in everyday life ..that may be their cross ..i think the issue is that some im not saying you. Want to somehow make this particular sin ..exeptional that needs to be handled different ..in the end Sin. Is Sin .for all sinners our gol is to be in a state of grace ….the two people in the article would probably say they experienced and still do .some of the things you mentioned ..but that doesnt deter them from the prize Eternal life.and neither should you ..stay strong keep your eyes on the cross ..

  • eldon klause

    Pompous balderdash. Begin by defining promiscuity please. And from where exactly do you derive your credentials and authority to make such a judgment on others?

    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

      The people in the film have already defined it for you, but you are apparently too obtuse to grasp it.

    • Art Deco

      I need neither authority nor credentials to remark that bar and bathouse denizens are promiscuous (and often quite pleased with themselves for ‘a that).

      Pretty much all social research into the lives of homosexual men discovers this, though the metrics vary some depending on how the sample is defined. (One low-end metric cited with satisfaction by Prof. Eugene Volokh actually captured mid-range behavior of bisexual men; survey research is not the law professor’s forte). One study I looked at concluded that a median partner count for an ordinary man would put you below the 2d percentile of the population of homosexual men. Somehow, I think that indicates promiscuity.

    • JP

      Justice William O’Douglas, as far as I know, wasn’t a credentialed theologian (he was an atheist, I believe), or a moralist (he married and remarried); he was a lawyer and judge. He once wrote ,”I cannot define pornography, but I know it when I see it.”

      The same can be said for promiscuity. It is a sad time when one needs an advanced degree in order to know what our grand mothers knew.

      • ForChristAlone

        Great minds think alike. I wrote the above w/o the benefit of having read your wise observation.

      • GeorgeG64

        It was Justice Potter Stewart…..but when did facts ever stop Catholics.

    • Guest

      Logic, right reason, experience, common knowledge, history, on and on.

    • CadaveraVeroInnumero

      Suppose you are addressing that to Mr. Ruse, maybe the individuals in the film. Why don’t you define it for the readers here. How and when is someone promiscuous?

      But, of course, if sex is primarily an aspect of one’s self-created identity then promiscuity is simple a variation of the self-regulating rules which constructs and maintains that identity.

      For example, I know one whose primarily sexual identity is the need and experience to cause pain. The sex (to use the old-fashion usage) is quite irrelvant to either the identity or the fullness of the experience. This individual, though, does not seek to engage friends, relations, or intimates, in such experiences, but he must engage. So how would promiscuity be exhibited in his life?

    • CadaveraVeroInnumero

      I make such judgments all the time. Would say, God required to do so. I had a good buddy friend who began to cheat on his wife. Told him he was a piece of . . . Quite pleased to did so. Pray it would be reciprocated, if need be.

      Sexual identity is not a self-possessed, self-created cultural, biological, anthropological, evolutionary fact. Good luck locating it.

    • ForChristAlone

      Just like a Supreme Court justice said once about pornography, “I know it when I see it.” No need to assign a numerical value to promiscuity. We all know what it means.

    • Austin Ruse

      In the movie Paul says ” thousands”. Does that qualify for you? I’d say hundreds certainly does, even dozens.

      • ForChristAlone

        I’d say one homosexual relationship is promiscuous.

        • MHB

          I’d say one heterosexual relationship that involves sex outside of marriage is promiscuous.

  • rod masom

    This is wonderful, beautiful stuff,,Austin, stuff that the HomoLeft will hate with a passion, as they are forever trying to convince the straights that Courage is hateful and it just never works, but this proves them, the HomoLeft, absolutely, tragically WRONG. And along with being one of the best, revelatory even, pieces I’ve read on this site, it hopefully can and will prove to be immensely fruitfull, as will the documentary, of course, in rescuing the homosexuals from the awful and depressing lives they lead. Now the second group that the HomoLeft hates equally with Courage, would be National Association for Reparative Therapy (NARTH), founded by Joseph Nicolosi, and it would be great if you could do an article on them, as well. And God Bless you on this terrific story on the Courage documentary. You are to be congratulated.

    • ForChristAlone

      Nicolosi has been fighting this fight alone for many years. I hope that the homofascists will understand that just because reparative therapy might be suppressed at the level of open discourse, it does not mean that it has been nor will be able to be eliminated. Truth has a way of rearing its divine head. Let’s remember that Elizabeth I did her best to suppress the Catholic Church, as did Communist China. Newsflash to the homofascists: it didn’t work then and won’t work now.

  • kelso

    The whole “gay” thing is disgusting. Their “sex” lifestyle, all sex, is disgusting and grossly unhygenic. And all we do is talk about the filthy gay anti-culture.” Who they hell are they? Let them live in their sick unnatural world of filth. Who would want to give 1 second to considering anal sex? And oral sex? The whole thing is filthy to the core. Unnatural. And these sodomites demand respect while they fill the world with disease. Some people, maybe not enough, are sick and tired of reading about the filthy “gays.” Why do we even talk about them? Let them stew is their filth. They are taking over all websites, even the opposition. Enough is enough. Let the dead bury the dead.

    • Daniel P

      “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.”

    • ErickMN

      No one forces you to think about gay sex 24 hours a day. You CHOOSE to do that. Why?

    • Matthew 6:5

      How long have you been in the closet?

    • GeorgeG64

      Just like most of the Popes. How many of them had mistresses, wives, boyfriends, etc. etc. etc.

      • Encourage14

        False.

  • Mark A.

    The film is beautiful, the message is powerful…but sadly, the writer (or his editor) do a huge disservice by writing a headline that mentions leaving the gay life behind. That’s not the case for any of these three fantastic witness givers – they may not be living what many of us refer to as “the lifestyle”, but all three make clear that they are still of a homosexual nature. And suggesting that that is not a core part of their life anymore would negate their message, as well as the hope offered by the Courage ministry.

    • John200

      Sadly, a more backward comment would be hard to find.

      The stars of “Desire of the Everlasting Hills” left the homo”sex”ual life behind. Left it behind. Left it behind. Left it behind. Left it behind. Not left their boyfriend’s behind — left homo”sex”uality behind. Do you see?

      Rejoice, Mark! These three are loving higher things and living for something far better, just like most of their fellow men. That’s good for all three! The krappe they left behind is not part of their life anymore; that is why they left it behind.

      Leaving all the krappe behind amplifies their message and does not negate anything they say on film.

      But you think 1% of us are called to live as homo”sex”uals in a homo”sex”ual nature. This thought goes up in smoke when we observe that homo”sex”ual nature does not exist. Rejoice, Mark! That doomed 1% is no longer doomed!

      Nor do you need to remain in such a “nature.” I don’t remember a more wrongheaded post from our (99+% likelihood) homo”sex”ual brethren (yes, history suggests that the odds are 99+% that you are homo”sex”ual. You may admit it at your convenience. I will wait patiently).

      The bottom line is, you don’t need to persist in sin. That is the point of “Desire of the Everlasting Hills.”

    • Encourage14

      Clarification, They are not “gay” or living the gay lifestyle. They are persons who are same sex attracted who have left the gay lifestyle.

  • Derek Schramm

    I hope and pray this film is watched by many who are in that multiple partner lifestyle as well as so called committed gay relationships in hopes of dumping that lifestyle and converting to a Christian lifestyle. And may it teach to the straight sympathizers of the gay lobby that people can change to normal.

    • ErickMN

      Have you considered spending less time obsessing about how OTHER PEOPLE live their lives, and more time fixing the problems in yours? Wouldn’t that be a more efficient use of all your free time?

      • Derek Schramm

        Conversion from gay lifestyle to normal lifestyle should remain in the marketplace of ideas and upheld by first amendment bill of rights (free speech, religious expression, association). The after life of those in the gay lifestyle is at stake as well as attempts to force acceptance of same-gender relationships (Massachusetts requiring Catholic adoption agencies to accept gay couples, wedding businesses getting sued for refusing businesses to gay couples, Christian schools getting sued for ending employment to gays that marry) . When gay rights started changing culture the Christian response was political resistance and ministry. Why can’t gay people and their heterosexual supporters allow Christians to continue historically held morality and advocacy of those precepts in all areas of life? Biblical and natural law prohibitions against the gay lifestyle is intrinsic to Judeo-Christian living. All other world religions (Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam) historically have taught against homosexual conduct.

        • ErickMN

          Every major medical, psychological and psychiatric organization in the western world calls conversion “therapy” garbage, and potentially harmful. You are welcome to keep garbage in your own personal “marketplace of ideas”, but you’ll also have to accept that the concept has been discarded by the vast majorty of researchers and therapists.

          You also need to accept that your chosen religious beliefs are relevant only to you and your ilk. You can worship your sky daddy, or lawn chairs, or chocolate chips, but that cr*p has no place in our laws and secular marriages. And those beliefs are ALWAYS trumped by the civil rights of others. Any business or organization serving the PUBLIC must adhere to all laws, including civil rights laws. If you refuse to do that, don’t open a business that serves the PUBLIC. Simple as that.

          Finally, you should realize by now that mainstream Americans will no longer allow you and your ilk to impose your religious views on others. Keep them to yourself, and stop bothering people.

          • MHB

            Erik, I read Derek’s post and unless I am mistaken, I didn’t understand that he was talking about conversion therapy ( therapy which is intended to reduce attraction to the same sex and increase attraction to the opposite sex). He used the term conversion. There is a difference.

            The Catholic Church does not recommend or even suggest conversion therapy, so suggesting that it is in the Church’s market place of ideas would be inaccurate, if that is what you meant.

            If Derek was in fact talking about conversion therapy, I would agree that this is something an adult should have a right to freely choose if he or she wishes, but that is a personal decision, whether you agree or not about it’s effectiveness.

            Additionally, Christians do have the right to live their lives according to their moral believes and it is an infringement of their rights if they are forced to do something they believe is immoral.

            Conversion to Christ, not to be confused with conversion therapy, is most definitely in the “marketplace” of followers of Christ.Conversion is for everyone. So for example, if someone were in a relationship which includes sexual conduct with someone of the opposite sex, and they are not married, then a conversion of heart to Christ would require renouncing that conduct. Not the person, but the conduct. The three people in this dvd , did not undergo “conversion therapy”. They converted their hearts to Christ. There is a big difference.

            I would like to add that your remarks about worship are derogatory and hateful. People’s religious beliefs deserve respect whether you agree or not, and your reference to cr*p denotes your lack of regard for humankind, most of whom worship God in one way or another.

            • DerekDuckDisQus

              Whether this film falls into conversion therapy or not, I’ll hold that the Christian message should not give up its mission to nurture out of the gay lifestyle. The day will come when the right therapy and/or medicine will cure same sex attraction.

              • MHB

                Re; Same sex attraction: Maybe so, maybe not! But the film is worth watching because it shows that a person can still be same sex attracted and live a chaste life AND be happy! I’ve met these people, and its true! I don’t understand why you haven’t seen it yet but you are commenting on a review of it. The film is not about conversion therapy. There is a link in the first paragraph of this article where you can watch it. Why don’t you see for yourself, Derek? It’s really well done, and honest. You can’t miss the honesty.

                • DerekDuckDisQus

                  I don’t need to be convinced of its positive message. I’ll watch it in its entirety soon.

                  • MHB

                    So when you actually view the film, I’d be glad to restart a conversation about it. Glad to hear that you intend to see it, seeing as this is the point of this particular blog.

                  • MHB

                    What did you think of the film we were discussing?

                    • DerekDuckDisQus

                      i i watched it, and with Spanish subtitles ! I thought it was good. I wonder if it could be clipped into a 1 minute trailer for the militant homosexual that would never give an hour of his or her time to a first viewing. Regarding conversion therapy which this film is not, but the female of the three in this documentary saw a counselor who aided her leaving the lesbian lifestyle and recommended faith in God and I would hope that would never be outlawed by state statutes. Strike one up for Mother Angelica too.

                    • MHB

                      I’m so glad you saw it! Now you have a reference point to talk with others about it and even recommend it.
                      Yeah, the part about Mother Angelica was both humorous and touching. He really needed to hear her message and how wonderful that he did and actually LIKED listening to her!
                      Rilene did see a counselor, but I think it is very important to notice that the point the counselor made was about Rilene’s relationship with God. She emphasized that if God isn’t primary in your life, how can anything else go right?That’s true whether or not you’re same sex attracted. Most counselors won’t go that route so she was lucky to find a faith filled counselor. THAT isn’t an easy task!!!
                      So Rilene was able to accept that message and find her way back to having a close relationship with God.
                      People who are same sex attracted don’t want to be told to go to conversion therapy….that is like getting in your face and saying, to you, stop being a heterosexual and go get some therapy to change so you can like guys. There has to be a very strong motivating factor to want to do conversion therapy. Some people never change in that they may feel the attraction but don’t feel compelled to act on it because they have formed a close relationship with God and don’t want to turn away from him once they do.
                      That relationship became primary in
                      Rilene’s life so that she no longer wanted to BE in a same sex relationship!
                      Now if someone wanted to have a family and wanted to love someone of the opposite sex in the way that they could be married and have children, they would want to go to conversion therapy and sometimes they are able to be helped….BUT not all, and it can be very, very expensive ( I don’t think it is covered by health insurance.) Everyone isn’t able to have that option.
                      We just all need to be sensitive to people, I think, and not tell them that they have to change to, what you say is normal. That is not THEIR normal. Do you see what I’m saying? They might be fine with just living a chaste life and not getting married. Its okay to remain same sex attracted and chaste.

          • DerekDuckDisQus

            I hope and pray that public sentiment and eventually laws favor the Christian worldview and see the homosexual lifestyle for what it is, biologically unnatural, spiritually sinful, and visually disgusting. I’ll rely on the 1st amendment to uphold Christian speech and assembly no matter how popular or unpopular.

            • ErickMN

              And yet, pretty much every day is another hard slap across the faces of you and your hateful ilk. You’ve lost the battle, and the war. Pick up your toys, and go home.

              • DerekDuckDisQus

                I forgot to mention unhealthy. I would never agree that Catholics and other Christians are hateful, just merely following our Bible to hopefully save souls and influence public policy. If you want to be left alone, one place to avoid would be Crisis Mag discussions. You don’t have to see the film that after I complimented it, inspired you to criticize me. You can’t be completely free from everything you perceive as offensive to yourself. St. Paul in the first chapter of the Book of Romans describes not only homosexuals but also those who are supportive of that lifestyle. Elsewhere in the Bible it says Christ won the war, if you choose Him, confess, and make an effort to avoid sin, you can join in that victory, no matter how unpopular that might be.

  • As a gay evangelical Christian who believes in traditional sexual ethics, I thought this was a beautiful film. I appreciate that it is mostly about the human story of love, loss, brokenness, and redemption in Christ. I started a blog recently to tell my own story of grace and redemptions in the midst of same sex attractions. Confessions of a Gay Evangelical Christian coagec.wordpress.com.

  • Daniel P

    The full movie is here:

    • Daniel P

      That didn’t work. Technical difficulties. Try this: http://vimeo.com/101135437

      • John200

        Dear Daniel P (and Austin Ruse),
        Thank you for the link to “Desire of the Everlasting Hills” . We may never see this movie in a commercial theater, not even in an n-plex where n = 12 (within walking distance of my home). But it would make money, especially when you consider competing against this summer’s mainstream movies (they are terrible!). I wouldn’t pay for myself, or anybody else, to see Cameron Diaz (is she still around? Why?) in “Sex Tape” or Michael Douglas and Diane Keaton (combined age = 137 years; still acting in romantic comedy. Why?) in “And So It Goes.”

        But people like me would sponsor class trips to the cinema for “Desire of the Everlasting Hills.” In fact, I’d put 100 heathens in front of that movie and then lead an open discussion….

        Some compliments for the movie:
        1. First and foremost, “Only God could have brought me back” says it all.
        Maybe I should stop with that one brilliant point, but I will add that sex goes with marriage and openness to new life. Saint JP II was ahead of the curve when he gave us “Theology of the Body.”

        In my course, the first homework assignment is to answer the question: “Why do you have a body?” The rest follows. You cannot do my course and think, “Gay is OK.” It isn’t.

        2. The movie destroys the idiotic belief that no one can cease homo”sex”ual activity and turn to normal life. Millions of misinformed Americans (they are everywhere, right there alongside millions of women who killed their kids, and they are oriented toward the same eternal disaster) think this move is impossible. The attacks on NARTH and the Courage apostolate demonstrate that homo”sex”uals desperately want to win this point.

        They can’t. From here forward, the homo”sex”ual trolls will need to invent new krappy arguments for their cherished beliefs. This one is kaput and forever unsalable.

        In the natural development of things, we will smash the new arguments aborning. Yes, similar to what libertines like to do with their own kids.

        3. This movie is well made. The director/interviewer adopts a simple, direct documentary style. This style causes (or allows) the truth to shine brilliantly. We also see the mental and emotional pain that goes with unnatural homo”sex”ual activity. Never doubt it; fake sex harms everyone. All this pain is an indirect proof that sex goes with marriage and St. JP II was right about everything.

        4. Back to the storyline: a sickening opening sequence progresses toward a conclusion worthy of St. Augustine. In fact, St. Augustine made the movie’s point 1600 years ago. Ditto Thomas Aquinas, 750 years ago. The movie shows that chastity leads to better feelings and better relationships. I do not believe “Sex Tape” produces the same or similar conclusion.

        5. We are commonly instructed that lesbians are somehow less evil, or better, and/or lovelier than evil, degenerate, disgusting, subhuman, heinie-poking (choose your adjective) male homo”sex”uals. The movie suggests a logical proposition: for all human beings, lesbianism is just as bad as male homo”sex”uality.

        It is. That goes for everybody, not just the two deluded “lovers.” Check the pain in the woman Rilene’s eyes and expressions. Her tears are awful
        to see. Her pain is comparable to, and maybe exceeds, the pain shown by the two men whose tears are similarly awful to see.

        Be advised that “Desire of the Everlasting Hills” might make you sick. It will run you up and down the emotional roller coaster. You might take a short break(s), depending on how strong your stomach is. But if you practice the virtue of final persistence and watch it all the way through, it will improve you. *

        I can offer no higher praise for a movie. This one is a “10.”

        * A less emotional, but no less certain, path to improvement runs through St. JP II, Thomas Aquinas, and St. Augustine (reverse chronological order). They don’t run you up and down the roller coaster. Instead, they engage your intellect, and patiently allow you to catch up with theirs.

  • sparrowhawk58

    There is a lot of bullying going on–I can only imagine the difficulty of trying to balance SSA with practicing Catholicism. And the bullying is coming from politically militant gays. There is a gay couple in our community who are trying to intimidate (straight) people from participating in a parish faith discussion group because “the Catholic Church is no different than the KKK.” Yet I regularly attend those group sessions and NEVER have heard anything hateful or mean said about gay people.

  • clintoncps

    It’s great to see people being able to differentiate between the impulses they experience — no matter how powerful or persistent — and their true identity as men and women made in the image and likeness of God.

    If all of us in the Church could understand that Christ truly does make us new creations through conversion, we’d be more confident and loving in refuting the lie of LGBTQ self-labeling. Unfortunately, many people seem to think that unless homosexual impulses “go away”, they haven’t really been re-created by God’s grace and must therefore retain a “gay” label, even if it’s unwelcome.

    The truth is, all of us continue to experience a wide variety of temptations throughout our Christian pilgrimages. But by putting on the mind of Christ — the mind that sees our Sonship before God the Father and that DESIRES to live in free and loving obedience to Him — we manifest the true sign of conversion. All labels are merely the signs of prejudice; they are shackles and hindrances that reduce our faith in God’s life-long transformation of our being; they must be surrendered at the foot of the Cross, for they are not definitive of the re-born child of God.

    St. James tells us to rejoice when we experience temptations, since God is forging us, through the exercise Christian perseverance, toward spiritual maturity and authentic self-knowledge as members of the Body of Christ. Let’s trust the Lord on that and surrender the labels at last.

    In the love and truth of Christ and the Holy Family,

    Clinton

  • Chris Garland

    I feel very bad for the three people in the video. They are clearly people who are unfulfilled in life and searching. I hope they find what they need to be fulfilled. I will tell you that I was in the same boat. Same guilt for being gay, same empty feelings. I prayed constantly for God to take the gay away, but the desires never left. I joined a religious community to immerse myself in God and to pray with people who all wanted to please God. However, I felt like I couldn’t survive any longer with the gay feelings. At one point, I had a loaded gun in my mouth because I couldn’t handle it anymore. At that point I cried out, “God, this is it. Either I have to accept that I am a gay man and live like one, or I am gong to die. Give me an answer.” A peace came over me, and I put the gun away. I knew I had to be the man God made me to be. So I left the religious community and embraced who I am. Today, I am a gay man married to an AMAZING and loving man, and we have a life of love and respect.

    • Encourage14

      well Thank God you put that gun away and avoided a terrible, terrible waste of the gift of life God gave you. However, Chris, I met all three of the people in the video and you are absolutely dead wrong! I’m sure you cannot even imagine how fulfilled they are, and joyful! Listen to them again, and hear the peace in their voices!!! God may not take the attractions away, and for many people , the cross continues all their life. But do you know that mostly everyone has some type of cross, not all the same, but difficult? I really think the point of the film is that they were able to surrender themselves to God and to turn away from pleasing themselves and putting God first in their lives. At least, that’s what I got out of it.

      • Chris

        Encourage, I also absolutely surrendered myself to God, and realized after a lot of time that this is not what God wanted. I hope you are right about these folks, but I suspect in a few years after a lot of suffering and turmoil, they will be finally realize they need to be who God made them.

        I hope it happens before tragedy occurs.

        • Encourage14

          They are being who God made them.
          The “tragedy” is that people like you, use your experience to try to scare people into turning away from another option. Living a chaste life has beauty and brings life to many people and they aren’t putting guns to their heads. Perhaps there are other reasons that were involved with your desperation, too personal for you to share here. In any case, I’m glad that you did not do what you were tempted to do. Just please do not disrespect the intent of this beautiful dvd which highlights the lives of three people who are no longer living a life of sin and are happy about it. We are all called to attempt to live our lives by the guidelines of the Church and we may fail over and over and repent. There is always a coming home for you, as well, Chris. Did you ever go to Courage and surrender with the help and support of the Courage Community? I bet you didn’t.
          One of the men in the video still lives happily with his partner, but is chaste, by mutual agreement, and happy. so please stop hanging the black crepe where it does not belong and congratulate them.

  • Dev

    Not really sure I understand the point of the film and the article. These 3 people are still same-sex attracted. They have chosen to live celibate lives. Fine. But why is Austin Ruse presenting it like it is some sort of devastating rebuttal to gay activists and “the world”?

    Ruse says “The modern day LGBT movement wants you to believe that the people featured in the new documentary “Desire of the Everlasting Hills” really don’t exist.” No it doesn’t. Nobody denies that chaste SSA people exist and the “world” doesn’t tell anyone that it is “impossible” to be celibate. The real controversy is over whether there exist people who were once SSA and who, through therapy or divine intervention or some other conscious process, have become opposite-sex attracted. That’s where the real dispute is. So while this may be a lovely film, it seems disingenuous to try to pretend that there is some huge controversy over whether celibate SSAs exist.

    • Encourage14

      The point is that the three people found joy in Christ when they left behind their former life. Their faith deepened and they found inner peace and joy that they did not find when they were acting on their same sex attractions through casual and not so casual sex.
      As for SSA people who have become opposite sex attracted, I have met some. What I understood a few to say is that their SSA left them entirely, and others have said that they still are attracted at times, particularly at stressful or vulnerable times, but they have learned how to turn to Christ in prayer and may have offered up their struggle to Christ. They have done this with the support of their Courage group members and with their chaplain and most importantly with the divine presence of the Holy Spirit through their participation in the sacraments.

  • Matt Jones

    For what it’s worth, the authors at Spiritual Friendship (spiritualfriendship.org) – who you sometimes (lamely) call the “New Homophiles – also adored this movie and two of them (myself and Eve) were present at the *actual* world premiere which happened in February at a film festival in Pasadena, CA centered on creating safe space for dialogue about sexuality and faith (Dan Mattson was there too). You can find Eve Tushnet’s review here: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/coming-out-catholic-the-movie/

    More interestingly, the film festival audience also loved the film even though 95% of them were affirming/progressive. In fact it was one of the favorite films of the people who ran the festival. The films wide appeal is pretty remarkable and a real testament to the filmmakers.

    So, it’s a bit disingenuous to make it seem as if this film somehow is only palatable to Courage-esque audiences.

    What we all commented on that we found so moving and unique about the film, something Ruse didn’t mention, was how it never denigrated the relationships the three protagonists had. Dan commented on the immense self-sacrificial love of Jason, his first boyfriend, Rilene welcomed her ex-wife back into her home so she could die among people she loved and was loved by, and Paul continues to live celibately with his former boyfriend.

    Each person found a way to move toward holiness and chastity without drastically rupturing their past relationships or slandering the former partners, showing respect and grace. People so often treat gay couples as worse than animals, and I think the tenderness these three subjects embody is fantastic and inspiring, even as I am glad they moved toward a more true calling.

    Also, Eve and I had a great dinner with Dan, and found we get along quite well in person. It’s amazing what happens when human contact replaces disembodied combox madness.

    Matt

    • MHB

      Excellent points. Thanks for Eve’s review.

  • You can pretty much to get people to do whatever you want if you can
    succeed at threatening them with the Fires of Hell. But this vanishingly small
    number of people who call themselves “Ex-Gay” pales in comparison to
    number of Gay people who, because of self-loathing and family and societal
    pressures, tried suppressing their fundamental identity, even going so far as
    to marry and have children, in hopes that it might “cure” them …
    only to ultimately realize that they were living a lie. And this tiny number of people who call themselves “Ex-Gay” is virtually
    NOTHING compared to the overwhelming number of Gay people who refused to hide
    away, and instead took the bull by the horns with courage and conviction, and
    learned to live openly, honestly, and with integrity.

  • Tony Hicks

    Wes, where are you?

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