What is Happening at Medjugorje?

wolf

Last week I received a mailing from Caritas of Birmingham, in Sterret, Alabama. It was an invitation to come to the four-storey Tabernacle of our Lady’s Messages at Caritas, where a visionary, Marija Pavlovic Lunetti, is slated to receive five messages and apparitions during the 2012 gathering from July 1 to July 5.

Caritas is a group devoted to the Medjugorje Marian apparitions in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is a continuation of international devotional interest in a phenomenon beginning on June 24, 1981, when six young people said they had received apparitions from the “Gospa” (Madonna). I’m not sure how we got on to their mailing list.  Possibly a relative submitted our name and address.

The Caritas group, however, is considered schismatic by the visionaries and priests at the pilgrimage center, in a part of what used to be Yugoslavia. On the “official” Medjugorje website we are warned that Caritas of Birmingham is a cult, something like a religious business, not approved.

But one of the visionaries, Marija, still comes regularly to Caritas in Birmingham, contributing to a local, in-house schism of an international cult that bespeaks a larger and ongoing schism with orthodox Catholicism.

Numerous books have been written on Medjugorje, most of them favorable.  But most of the pro-Medjugorje books ignore the early tapes made by Fr. Cuvalo and Fr. Zovko, on the days immediately following the apparitions, which began on June 24, 1981; they are based on interviews recorded over a year after the original visions, and incorporated in the 1985 book, A Thousand Encounters with the Blessed Virgin Mary in Medjugorje. And none of them take into account the first tape made by Fr. Cuvalo before Fr. Zovko took over the taping of interviews with the visionaries.

But Donal Foley’s book, Medjugorje Revisited: 30 years of Visions or Religious Fraud? does take into account early tapes as well as later sources, brings out some crucial differences in the early and later transcripts, and leads the reflective reader to serious doubts about what is really happening at this pilgrimage center.

Compared to approved apparitions of the Blessed Virgin, for example, at Lourdes and at Fatima, the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje contain numerous anomalous aspects:

In the initial appearances, the Gospa appears out of a cloud of light which gradually takes on the image of a young woman in her late teens.  She has blue eyes and is wearing a gray dress.  She looks like she is holding “something like a baby” in her arms, but none of the features of the baby can be seen.  Her hands are shaking.  She laughs.  The visionaries are able to touch and kiss her, but her vestments are “steel to the touch.”  When a lady doctor asked if she could touch her also, the Gospa agreed, but complained about “unbelieving Judases.” 

Fr. René Laurentin, a supporter of Medjugorje, in his Chronological Corpus of the Messages, changed this obvious blooper to “doubting Thomases.”

In the first few years following the apparitions, around thirty different apparition places were chosen, with the Gospa appearing often as if “on cue.” Some of the messages, even in our open-minded era, would be categorized as not just heterodox, but heretical.  We hear that all religions are equal (“Before God all the faiths are identical.  God governs them like a king in his kingdom.”) All sufferings are equal in hell; and Mirjana quotes the Gospa as telling her that people begin feeling comfortable in hell.  As regards the afterlife, those who go to heaven after death “are present with the soul and the body.” When the Madonna is asked about the title, “Mediatrix of all graces,” she replies, “I do not dispose of all graces.”

Although Medjugorje claims to be a continuation of Fatima and the “last appearance of Jesus or Mary on earth,” there is strangely no exhortation to the devotion of the Five First Saturdays, which Our Lady of Fatima asked for in reparation for the five kinds of offenses and blasphemies against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Unlike the approved apparitions, the visionaries at Medjugorje have been consistently disobedient to local bishops.

  • December 19, 1981, Vicka in her Notebook writes that their bishop, Pavao Zanic, was “the more guilty party” in conflict with the Franciscans, and the Gospa defended the Franciscans who were disobeying the bishop’s order to share their parish with secular clergy.
  • June  21, 1983, in a letter the visionary Ivan said that the Gospa demanded the  Bishop’s “immediate conversion” and that he should stop emphasizing the “negative side”– otherwise she and her Son would punish him.
  • February 3, 1985 the Gospa told three visionaries that Fr. Barbaric, whose removal  was requested by the bishop, should stay.

According to the German theologian, Manfred Hauke, the Gospa urged disobedience thirteen times to Bishop Zanic, who had originally been inclined favorably to the apparitions.

Pilgrims to Medjugorje occasionally report signs, such as the appearance of a gold tint on the chains of their rosaries, and the phenomenon of a “dance of the sun,” in which the sun, seen by the naked eye without causing harm, proceeds up and down in a yo-yo manner, emitting various colors. The latter is obviously construed as a reenactment of the famous “miracle of the sun” at Fatima, on October 13, 1917. “Healing” miracles have been reported, but none have been tested by experts and verified.

On June 29, 1981, the Gospa announced that a four-year-old boy would be healed, but this never happened. A sign from heaven predicted by the visionaries for August 17, 1981, never materialized.  Ivan, in a signed statement, on May 9, 1982, said that a sign would appear in six months – a “huge shrine in Medjugorje” in memory of the Gospa’s apparitions.  But this also never materialized. In 1983 the visionaries said a “visible sign” would be left at Medjugorje in perpetuity. But this has not happened.

In September, 1981, the prophecy that “Germany and the U.S. will be destroyed,…the Pope will be exiled to Turkey,” never took place.  Nor did peace for Yugoslavia predicted by the Gospa during the 80s.  Yugoslavia broke up during the Bosnian war, 1992-95, leading to the violent separation of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina from Serbia.

The visionaries allege that they have received secrets from the Gospa.  Jakov Colo, Ivan Dragicevic and Ivanka Ivankovic have each received nine, while the others have received all ten. Only one of the secrets has been revealed by the visionaries: Namely, the Gospa’s promise of a “visible sign,” mentioned above.

On June 30, 1981, the Gospa said that her appearances would end in three days, but they went on without interruption.  As of 2004, over 33,000 messages had been delivered by the Gospa.  The number now is around 40,000. Three of the visionaries, Ivan, Vicka and Marija, still have daily visions. We are dealing with a Madonna who, in contrast with the authorized apparitions, has become extremely talkative. If we weren’t referring to heavenly personages, the category of “personality change” would suggest itself.

Numerous attempts have been made to subject the visionaries to testing by experts.  However, when experts came from various countries in 1984, 1987, 1988, 1992 and 1995, to test the visionaries, they either claimed to be sick, or that Our Lady had “paused” in her appearances, or they simply did not cooperate.

During the tests on October 6-7, 1984, of the visionaries during ecstasy, Dr. Philippot, an ophthalmologist, found that the pupil of the visionaries did react to light. Once, when the visionaries were being filmed during ecstasy, a skeptical pilgrim made movements with his two fingers towards the eyes of Vicka in ecstasy, and she reacted by moving her head back; later she explained that this was because she thought the Blessed Virgin was about to drop the baby Jesus, and she wanted to keep him from falling.

Both Pavao Zanic and Ratko Perić, the bishops who have had jurisdiction over Medjugorje since 1981, have concluded that the apparitions are not of supernatural origin. Nineteen out of 20 bishops in the Yugoslav Episcopal Conference in 1991 issued the Zadar declaration: “On the basis of investigation up till now, it cannot be established that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.”

In 1884, Pope Leo XIII had a vision in which he listened to a dialogue taking place between God and Satan.  Satan boasted that he could destroy the Church, if only God would remove some of the restraints on his power and give him a hundred years.  God answered, “So be it,” causing the Pope, fearful for the coming trials of the Church, to compose the prayer for protection to St. Michael, recited at the end of Mass until 1964.

Is it conceivable that starting in 1981, the devil, looking over his victories and concerned that his time might be coming to an end, might look to subvert the Church with something like a pretend-Madonna? Jesus warned us (Mt. 24:24, Mk. 13:22) that in the final days prophets would arise with signs and wonders, and would be able to deceive even the elect.

For the Spirit of Evil, with no interest in goodness or holiness, it would have to be “out of character” to appear as the holy Woman whom he hates, and whose foot (Genesis 3:15) will finally crush his head. On the other hand, what a tremendous victory it would be to get the devotion of the faithful, drawing them in subtle ways to the devil’s own “religious reeducation” project.

Mistakes might be made, of course.  For example, in 1982, one of Mirjana’s expected visions of the Gospa turned out to be the devil, until it changed into the Madonna, apologizing and telling her that this was just a trial. And on August 2, 1981, the Gospa allowed the people present to come and touch her, but turned black; Marija explained that this was because sinners were touching her, and they should go to confession.

Medjugorje is frequently touted as a continuation of Fatima.  At Fatima, Our Lady promised that eventually, through the power of the rosary and fulfillment of her request of Mass attendance on five first Saturdays, her Immaculate Heart would eventually triumph and world peace would ensue. This might coincide with the end of the time given to the devil.  From the devil’s viewpoint, might not a distraction be in order? Some traditional piety, with prayer and fasting, and a touch of “New Age” spirituality?  If Medjugorje were approved officially by the Church, the devil’s feared triumph of Mary’s Immaculate Heart might be staved off indefinitely.

Jesus told us to judge trees by their “fruits.” In Medjugorje, numerous conversions have been reported, Catholics returning to the sacraments after many years, etc.  But the main fruit, and the fruit closest to the heart of the devil, has been disobedience.  Original sin came into the world not through lust or greed or murder, but through disobedience; and the redemption took place through the obedience of Jesus (Romans 5:19) and the fiat of his mother. In Medjugorje, we are confronted with the counterintuitive phenomenon of the Madonna encouraging disobedience to the successors of the Apostles, and disobedience of some Franciscans to Vatican directives.

Other “fruits” include the massacres and mutilations that took place from 1991 to 1992 when, because of the war, three groups involved in the pilgrimage trade, losing business, turned on each other, resulting in an estimated 80-140 deaths and 600 expulsions; and the revocation of faculties or laicization of Frs. Zovko and Vlasic, guides of the visionaries accused of sexual infractions. Nine Franciscans were also expelled from the order and a divinis. According to historian Michael Sells, religious nationalists in Medjugorje “cleansed” non-Catholics, destroying an Orthodox monastery and murdering priests and monks. Bishop Perić was kidnapped on April 2, 1994, in retaliation for his criticisms of unauthorized activities in Medjugorje, and released only when the Mayor of Mostar intervened with UN troops.

And so what are we to conclude? Bishop Perić’s statement in 1997 still seems to be the most relevant:

On the basis of the serious study of the case by 30 [academics], on my episcopal experience of five years in the Diocese, on the scandalous disobedience that surrounds the phenomenon, on the lies that are at times put into the mouth of the “Madonna,” on the unusual repetition of “messages” for over 16 years, on the strange way that the “spiritual directors”of the so-called “visionaries” accompany them throughout the world making propaganda of them, on the practice that the “Madonna” appears at the “fiat” (let her come!)  of the “visionaries,” my conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate (“no evidence of the supernatural”) but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate (“evidence of the non-supernatural character”) of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje.

Howard Kainz

By

Howard Kainz is professor emeritus at Marquette University. He is the author of several books, including Natural Law: an Introduction and Reexamination (2004), The Philosophy of Human Nature (2008), and The Existence of God and the Faith-Instinct (2010). Professor Kainz is a regular contributor to Crisis Magazine.

  • 110sierraridge

    Unfortunately, much of your information is second or even third hand from sources who are negative on the apparitions at Medjugorje and is either incorrect or taken out of context. Clearly, if all you write here is correct, the Vatican would have closed Medjugorje down long ago. Medjugorje is supported by priests, Bishops and Cardinals, including Cardinal Schonborn who directed the latest publication of the Catechism. The events at Medjugorje have done more positive good in conversions, in bringing people back to the Church and in vocations than any other event in the last 1000 years. Your conclusion inferring that Medjugorje is from Satan doesn’t make sense. Obviously something is amiss and that is the fact that your source information is incorrect and thus invalid for drawing conclusions. Those who sincerely want to get to the bottom of what is happening in Medjugorje should go and interview the visionaries directly and get first hand research data from he area

    • Howard Kainz

       You might want to give some examples of “incorrect information.”

      • Patrick Coffin

        Professor Kainz, welcome to the public shaming ritual to which skeptics of Medjugorje are subjected, and thanks for mentioning Donal Foley’s invaluable book.   Devotees of Fatima or Lourdes don’t bat an eye of you say you don’t have a particular devotion to those approved apparitions.  But gently bring up any of the dozens of problems associated with Medjugorje — and out come the verbal switchblades.   Significantly, Fatima was never sold as a continuation of Lourdes, nor was Lourdes sold as a continuation of La Salette, nor was La Salette sold as a continuation of Guadalupe, etc.  Quite the dodgy marketing strategy, considering how vastly different Fatima is from the 31-years-and-counting phenomena of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

        • Dave

          wait, who is selling Medjugorje as a continuation of Fatima?  That is supposedly a quote of JP II.  If false, then whoever came up with it will have to answer for it, but what has it to do with the authenticity of the apparitions?  Nothing.

          So now we have Medjugorje scorned because the phrase “continuation of Fatima” is uttered, and scorned because it is allegedly OBSCURING Fatima.  Which one is it?

          I could care less if you or anyone else have a devotion to Medjugorje, but I do care if inaccurate quotations of what the Blessed Virgin allegedly said are being transmitted, which must be the case by either one side or the other.  The devil is indeed behind one of the sides here, but I’m not quite so sure it’s the Medjugorje devotees side.  Where the false certainty that some people seem to have is coming from, I am not sure, unless they read Croatian and have access to the original documented material.

          Why is it that people can’t just shut up, pray for the commission, and wait for the ruling?  We should all just want the truth, but there appear to be other factors at play….

          • Howard Kainz

             On the Medjugorje website, in an interview, Mirjana Dragicevic says: ” “What I have started in Fatima I will finish in Medjugorje. My heart
            will triumph”. I cannot go into details. That’s the only apparition she
            mentioned aside from Medjugorje.”

            • Howard Kainz

               Oops! The sentence in the quotation marks above is Mirjana’s quote about what the Gospa said.

            • Dave

              That’s not the same as saying that Medjugorje is the continuation of Fatima, exactly (that quote was attributed to JP II) but it is interesting.

              • Kevin Symonds

                Fr. Rene Laurentin claimed JPII said it in his presence.

        • Michael Seaman

          The long duration of the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje do not automatically suggest they are inauthentic. Witness Laus, France, where approved Marian apparitions continued over 54 years in the 17th and 18th centuries.

          • Kevin Symonds

            Mr. Seaman, I wrote an article about this very point a few years ago.

            I contacted the rector of the Shrine in Laus and asked him about the duration of the apparitions to the visionary there.

            To be brief: Medjugorje and Laus cannot be compared.  Laus’ apparitions were sporadic over a 50+ year period (not unlike Sr. Lucia of Fatima).  Medjugorje is every day.  THAT is the criticism of Medjugorje.

            • Michael Seaman

              Kevin Symonds, so your point is that the Virgin Mary can come for many, many years in an apparition, just not every day. Whoa, how bold of you to put restrictions on what the Mother of God can and can not do! Care to let us in on any other restrictions you’ve got for her? Apparently, she should have checked in with you before attempting to steer mankind back to her Son.

              For the record, unlike you, I do not have any book I am trying to plug.

        • Gummy

           I repeat: “Why would Jesus and Mary be appearing or speaking to people on earth, if
          not to make a difference?  To those who say it is not necessary even to
          believe those that are approved, I tell you, you are blocking God’s
          work on earth.  Fortunately during Old Testament times, up until today,
          there have been those who listened and acted, and unfortunately scoffers
          and naysayers who harm others with their vitriolic words of doubt, have
          always been around to do their best to turn people away from God’s
          help.   Be careful that you don’t have to answer for souls who have been
          lost eternally because of your arguments against Truth.  That is a great risk – it would be better to say nothing!”

          • Patrick Coffin

            Dear Gummy:  bosh.  No Catholic is required to believe a single private revelation, not even an approved one.  So why the bretless panic over a pointedly UNapproved one?   “Lost eternally”?  “Scoffers” who “harm others” with “vitriolic words of doubt”?  

            Please.
            Devotees of Medjugorje often preach silence in the face of uncomfortable facts.  But being silent over promoting Medjugorje?  Perish the thought.   Medjugorje has been rejected by Bishops Zanic, Peric, the Zadar Declaration with the classic non constat de supernaturalitate judgment.  This is not yet the full condemnation of constat de non supernaturalitate, but then, the Ruini Commission is still in session.  Pro-Medj commenters have offered not a single refutation of Prof. Kainz’ pithy and balanced summary of the phenomenon.  Only oddball warnings about facing God’s judgment, and ad hominem attacks. 

            • Gummy

               There is a great difference between a bishop having an opinion, and pronouncing a teaching as a Bishop.  The two bishops you mentioned were merely offering their opinions, because there is nothing taught in Medjugorje messages which conflicts with faith and morals, so they have had no basis for condemnation.  If there were, condemnation would have been pronounced years ago.  Most of the negative comments launched against Medjugorje are hyped up, exaggerated  nonsense.  Anyone can be attacked and made to look bad because we are human  beings and do have weak points, even those chosen by God to give His messages to His people, for their own benefit.  They are not perfect, and if mistakes have been made, that is unfortunate.  Just as Old Testament prophets were imperfect, yet used by God (does anyone remember even Peter was called satan by Jesus because he tried to prevent what God decreed?)   Could I not perhaps begin to slander some of your actions and make people believe that you are not who you say you are?  Of course, it is done all the time by the media and psychological methods to beat down opponents.

              I, and many others who had no faith or very weak faith and were not Catholic, have not been disobedient to anyone because we were not under obedience to the Church as non-Catholics who were called to Medjugorje.  I for one, was not looking for God.  He found me, totally unexpectedly, and used so many supernatural ways of helping me to recognize that there actually is a spiritual realm and that He exists, as Our Lady of Medjugorje frequently states, that there was no way that I could NOT have believed that He is there with His Mother, sending help to rescue lost children all over the world.

              You can use “pithy and balanced summaries” all day long and it will never take away from me, a now faithful Catholic who obeys the Church’s teachings,  my experiences of becoming Catholic, in the school of Mary at Medjugorje.  She taught me all I know in a profound supernatural way that cannot be explained, nor refuted.  The changes that I and others in my life have experienced, only because of Mary in Medjugorje, cannot be the work of “one” who is pure evil.  This could not be sustained for 17 years in my life.  I personally have affected so many other people toward God, His Church and orthodoxy in the Catholic faith, that, as someone else stated, the evil one would be working against himself (this has a familiar ring, as Jesus was accused of working for the devil too).  And I am only one of millions who have been called to Medjugorje and have positively affected so many of the people in their lives, to a stronger faith or a new found faith, which they would not have experienced without Medjugorje.  This is definitely not the work of demons.

              You are doing yourselves a great disservice when you continue to work against the good work Blessed Mother is doing for Her children.  Just think…You yourselves may be working for the devil when you vehemently work against the Mother of God.  As I said, it would be better to say nothing at all, than to fight against Heaven’s “oddball” attempts to save the world from itself and the direction in which the people are currently headed.

              • Desertwatch333

                Actually there is a saying that even the devil can quote scripture meaning that although seers can say that an apparition said something which complies with Scripture that doesn’t mean the apparition is authentic; and the Bishops did offer more than opinions…they gave the seers orders to follow under obedience and the seers refused saying, in effect, that Our Lady told them they were right and the Bishops was wrong.  I believe that Our Lady appeared there in the beginning but I do not believe she is appearing there now…I do not believe she follows the seers around and they set the appointment for where and when she appears…

                • Gummy

                  You are incorrect…The visionaries stopped having their visions in the Church at the request of Bishop Zanic. Bishops Zanic and Peric have tried to stop Medjugorje from promoting the visions by telling the
                  visionaries to stop claiming that they have been seeing Mary. But this
                  has not been done officially, just mentioned in a homily.  the Bishop has no authority to stop a human being from claiming apparitions.  They only have the authority to make a judgement on behalf of the church for others to follow.   According to a decree in 1966 by the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith Ecclesiastical permission is not required for publication of revelations, visions, miracles or for the

                  frequenting of non-recognized places of apparitions.  Permission is required only for the celebration of Holy Mass or any other religious service.  Bishop Zanic set up a commission to investigate the authenticity of the
                  visions, but Cardinal Ratzinger rejected it and gave the authority to
                  the Yugoslav Bishops’ Conference. Their conclusion was the Zadar
                  Declaration of 1991, which said that investigations continued and that
                  in the meantime pastoral care was to be given to the pilgrims.

                  DECLARATION OF THE EX-YUGOSLAVIA BISHOPS’ CONFERENCE ON MEDJUGORJE

                  At the ordinary session of the Bishops’ Conference of Yugoslavia in Zadar from April 9 – 11, 1991 the following was adopted.

                  DECLARATION

                  The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events
                  of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese [Mostar], the Bishop’s
                  Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on
                  Medjugorje.

                  On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed
                  that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations.

                  However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different
                  parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of
                  belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral
                  care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other
                  bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it
                  a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in
                  accordance with the teaching of the Church.

                  For this purpose the bishops will issue specially suitable
                  liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they
                  will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in
                  Medjugorje.

                  In Zadar April 10, 1991

                  The Bishops of Yugoslavia

                  (Zagreb Glas Koncila May 5, 1991

                  In a letter signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, he stated: 
                  “What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of
                  “Famille Chretienne”, declaring: “My conviction and my position is not
                  only ‘non constat de supernaturalitate,’ but likewise, ‘constat de non
                  supernaturalitate’ of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje”,
                  should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the
                  Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the
                  place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.

                  Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on
                  condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events
                  still taking place and which still call for an examination by the
                  Church.”

                  The Pharisees were criticized by Jesus where they needed to be.  It was for their own benefit.  If Our Lady attempts to correct Her Bishop/Priest sons, as a Mother that is her perogative. 

                  AND Our Lady does not follow the seers around, as you say, but they deliver Her messages by selflessly giving up their time to travel, as all people are not able to go to Medjugorje.  Perspective is everything isn’t it?

                  • Desertwatch333

                    Why are you so defensive Gummy? Defend and honor Our Lady but don’t try to show that the apparitions are authentic since that is not certain.  The Bishops have stated that it cannot be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelation and that pilgrimages are permitted privately on condition that they are not regarded as an authentication of apparations…and that pilgrims there need the pastoral care of the Bishops so that in everything connected with Medjugorje a HEALTHY devotion may be promoted while not declaring that the apparitions are authentic.  And the seers do have Our Lady supposedly follow them even on vacation…this is bizarre to say the least.  Sorry, but as I have said, I do believe Our Lady appeared at Medjugorje but is no longer appearing at the whim of the seers.  You can believe as you wish…I will wait until the Church declares whether the current or primary apparitions are or are not authentic. 

                    • Gummy

                       I am not defensive in the way you are implying,  I am defending Our Lady’s good work there by pointing out the truths which are being overlooked and ignored by the author and many commentators.   I have given you proofs (above) through documentations from the Church, that the slanders about disobedience and everything else, are just not valid.  I love Truth and I must defend it.  As I said Our Lady isn’t following them around at their whim, she has asked them to spread her words asking people to pray, come to Jesus, change our materialistic lifestyles, evangelize, etc, and wherever they are, she always appears to them.  She is seeking out lost children to bring them to conversion, to Her Son, as She did with me.  She is evangelizing.  That is Her perogative.  Ask Her why she does it – She may give you an answer!  
                      And lastly, because She IS there, I know it, have no doubt it will be approved, and I grow weary of the same old attacks upon the Blessed Mother!  It is getting very old….

        • Jim

          Patrick,
          I love listening to you on the radio!
          You are doing more than you know to bring the beauty of Christ & the Church to people who are starving for it..
          But please don’t lump all of us who have a different opinion than Mr. Kainz about Medjugorje, into the same group of verbal switchbladers ready for a good ole public shamin..

          There are those of us that have put at least as much research into it, have been there & seen the incredible call to the Church & the sacraments first hand.  — & legitimately think there is something Very good going on there.

          Does our faith depend on the legitimacy of Medjugorje – Of course not.

          However, when Mr. Kainz trolls the interweb with an article  that seems to want it both ways – ie. that the “visions” are from the devil – and that they don’t really happen — then I for one will want some clarity on just what in the world he’s saying is going on.. (& maybe his goal was just to stir it up & see what happens..)

          Anyway, would like to say thank you again for your work on the radio!

          Jim

          • Patrick Coffin

            Hi Jim:

            Thanks for the kind words.  I never said, though, that all Medjugorje supporters are verbal switch-bladers.  They are certainly not.  But what I wrote is still true:  anyone who expresses a whiff of commentary that is less that full-bore acceptance soon finds himself confronted by fanatics who have glommed onto this unapproved — and, as I am convinced, unapprovable — phenomenon.  And no, I don’t lump you with the fanatics.

            I agree that something very good is happening at Medjugorje:  the holy sacrifice of the Mass is celebrated, people go to confession and prayer is encouraged.  And praise God for that.  All three very good things, however, also happened at Necedah, WI, Bayside, NY, and the Holy Love shrine in OH — to cite a few examples of condemned apparition.

            The sole authoritative Catholic source on Medjugorje is found here: http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?menuID=98.  

            We continue to pray for the members of the Ruini Commission who, if news reports are accurate, must be finished by year’s end.  Medjugorje supporters are in a much more difficult situation because if the Commission (which will have the explicit approval of the Holy Father) reverses 30 years of careful episcopal investigation and approves Medjugorje, no Catholic will be required to accept it.  But if it is definitively condemned, its supporters will be required to drop their support and promotion.

            The question is, will they?

            • Jim

              You see folks – this is why I love being Catholic!
              We can discuss & disagree, & hash things out (like I was not even aware of those condemned apparitions) — & I believe it is done in love – trying to arrive at truth.
              – & we can do it without running off & starting a new religion..
              because at the end of the day we abide by what the Church says ( What you bind on earth is bound in Heaven..)
              So, we know that however we see this could change drastically depending on what the Church ultimately says.
              I believe that yes, Mary has appeared & is appearing to the visionaries of Medjugorje — and like Patrick said above, the good things that are happening (and what I see the focus is) are  the sacraments, especially Mass & confession – and conversion to God.  I attribute the confusion to man’s imperfections — which are never absent..

              If the Church makes a pronouncement against Medjugorje – then there’s no question, I’m following the Church.  I’ll say thanks for the memories & move on.
              There is a great peace in knowing that..

              & Patrick, I had this page up earlier tonight & my 8 year old daughter walked up & saw it & said “Oh – Patrick Coffin, he’s on the radio..”  So you are even reaching the younger generation (even when I didn’t think she was listening!)

              Please know that you are in our prayers.  I pray that God continues to bless you & your ministry.  The calm, confident, & personal way you handle callers on the radio I believe really reaches listeners, and  I pray that God brings you over the airways to as many people as possible!
              Thanks again for what you do!

              • Desertwatch333

                Chris Mattson made a comment about Pope John Paul being favorable towards the apparitions at Medjugorje and although I believe Pope John Paul is a saint and a great and wonderful man, remember that he was mistaken about Father Maciel, badly mistaken…even saints can be fooled.  And P.John Paul never went to Medjugorje so he was responding to some reports he’d received.  I believe Our Lady appeared there in the beginning but stopped a long time ago…but I could be wrong so I’ll wait for the decision from Rome but whatever happens, I am a Catholic and will always be a Catholic and will always love Our Lady…nothing will change that.

      • Vincent Kemme

        I would suggest that you give your sources before asking some else to proof where you were wrong. Isn’t that the normal procedure, especially for a scolar?

      • Catholic

        Hello Mr. Kainz,

        As You seek for incorrect information, I would just briefly like to look back at Your “most relevant statement”, the one from Ratko Peric, the local bishop. As I am from Medjugorje myself, I believe I have first hand information about what is going on there (I am currently not in the country, so don’t be confused by “there”). What You should know is that Ratko Peric is having bad intentions (he is not really fond of Franciscians who govern that parish as they are not from the same order and there has always been disagreement between those two orders in Herzegovina) and that is why he is trying to degrade Medjugorje as much as possible.
        Furthermore, according to what I read, all visionaries agreed on psychological testing and studies, and all of them were tested and it has been proven that they were NOT responding to any external stimuli whatsoever (during the apparition).
        As well, I also read personal story of the doctor that You mentioned who touched Gospa (Virgin Mary) , and the doctor said that she DID feel something when she touched the place visionaries instructed her.
        There is one more thing I would like to emphasize: Medjugorje , throughout these 32 years, only brought peace and joy to those who came and visited this place. I have never heard one single story with negative connotation, not even from people who are agnostics or other religion, and I have lived there my entire life.

        As well, there were many cases when people claimed that they “got clean” from the satan in Medjugorje as their soul was filled with Holy Spirit while being there.. I don’t believe satan would chase “one of his own” from a person’ soul.

        I would like to emphasize more things, but I am not sure whether You will read this anyways, as it has been more than 8 months.. I will keep my words, and hope You will reply!

        Kind Regards,
        Ivana

    • Kevin Symonds

      110sierraridge, tell me, do you know much about the situation in Bosnia-Hercegovina?

    • Michael Seaman

      Well said.

  • Pingback: What is Happening at Medjugorje? | Catholic Canada

  • Dtb

    Lots of incorrect information here.

    • Veritas_10101

      Maybe, just one example of incorrect information…

  • Dave

    Maybe Medjugorje is from Satan, but if so, I would have to conclude that Satan is very stupid indeed. I have probably seen more conversions to Catholicism (or a devout practice of Catholicism) as a result of Medjugorje in the last 30 years than from all other reasons combined.  I am one of those converts, and the vast majority of us would not be fazed in our Faith if Medjugorje were condemned.

    Certainly there are some reasons for concern (although some of the bad fruit you name cannot be reasonably connected to the apparitions) and that is why the commission is investigating, but if the apparitions are actually a deception of Satan, I have no idea what the hell he is doing.

    And also…are you really suggesting that Satan ACCIDENTALLY appeared as himself, and then basically said, “whoops” and then switched to a guise of the Blessed Mother?!??!

    • Howard Kainz

       Monsignor Farges in his study of mystical phenomena writes, “God occasionally allows [the devil] to assume the most majestic forms, such as those of our Lord, the Blessed Virgin, or the saints.  Nevertheless — for God could not otherwise permit it — the disguise, no matter how bold, is never complete, and he always betrays himself in some particular which cannot escape an attentive and prudent observer.” The shaking hands of the Gospa in the initial vision might be a case in point. I am glad your conversion is not dependent on the truth of Medjugorje, and I hope that is the case with the other conversions also.

      • Dave

        Interesting quote, which makes sense.  I am glad that the discernment of Medjugorje does not fall to me.  It is doing a lot of good in revitalizing life in the Church, especially in Europe.  Cardinal Schonborn has remarked something to the effect that he isn’t sure he would even have a Church in Austria to run were it not for Medjugorje.  

        However, I do agree that caution is warranted due to some of the reasons you mentioned.  I suppose, in the case the Devil really is behind it, that even the Devil may be tripped up by the law of unintended consequences, and God only permits an evil if he can bring a  greater good out of it.

        Yes, most “Medjugorje” converts converted a good while ago, and Medjugorje tends to draw one deeper into the traditional practices and beliefs of the Church.   Medjugorje is the initial “match” that ignites the faith of many torches, but once the torch is lit, a wind that blows out the match would not do much to the torch.  I would not expect to see a major uprising if the Vatican were to condemn it.

        What I expect, though, is a re-iteration of the non constat de supernaturalitate (“no evidence of the supernatural”) ruling, with continued permissions of pilgrimage and appropriate cautions about the apparitions not being approved.

        It is true that it is vitally important to do the Five First Saturdays.  I don’t think it likely, however, that any legitimate apparition of the Virgin since 1917 would have to mention the Five First Saturdays in order to be valid.  After all, there have been some apparitions approved since then, and none of them, to my knowledge, have mentioned the First Saturday devotion.

        I do not think that the “Gospa” said that all religions are equal.  There may have been errors in translation.  I have heard that she said that PEOPLE of all religions are equal, and other religions should be respected.  Anyway, assuming that the Vatican has access to the original interviews, etc. they should be able to sort out the truth of such matters as these.

        • MCP

          Wayne Weible, a protestant convert to Catholicism as a result of Medjugorje, himself many times asked the visionary about the apparition’s claim that  “all religions are equal” and over and over, the visionary said yes, that was what the apparition said.  Over and over she confirmed it.  This was the thing that turned me off.  I thought, “well, there went the blood of martyrs!”  The  statement was confirmed many times, never explained much less,  denied. 

          Cardinal Schonborn is not the most orthodox of the princes of the Church.  Only lately, he more than approved same sex “marriage” by dining with a gay choir director and his partner.  But that’s another story.

          • Jcsmitty1212

            See the quote itself which talks about MEMBERS being equal before God. God shows no partiality to people, but Jesus did build the Catholic Church on Peter and we know it is the true church. Nevertheless, even the Catechism recognizes that some peope, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the church. The quote in this article is inaccurate.

            • MCP

              Same dog, different collar.

            • MCP

              Jcsmitty,
              What the authentic Catholic faith teaches: Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life.  No one goes to the Father except through Him.
              “Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12).
              The Church has summarized this teaching in the dogma, “Outside of the Church there is no salvation.” The following is a dogmatic, ex-cathedra statement from Pope Eugene IV, Feb 4, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his alms giving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Denz. 714)

              • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

                Go to your confessor quickly. Too claim any and all papal comments are “dogmatic, ex-cathedra statements” must be very close to a grevious act against the Eighth Commandment.

          • Dave

            Really?  The fact of Cdl. Schonborn dining with a man and his partner means he approves of same sex marriage!?!?!?!  Well, I guess Jesus approved of prostitution then.

            I guess I do not ever recall Wayne Weible saying that, and it was as a result of his newspaper that I initially converted.  Can you provide some documentation?    It seems that the apparition would have been a slam dunk condemnation if the Blessed Virgin really said that.

            Here is the quote I found when I searched for this: “Members of all faiths are equal before God.”  I also see tons of anti-Medjugorje websites quoting the “all faiths are equal before God” part, but not the preceding two words.  Which is the original?  I am sure the commission has access to the information.

            • Noyade1796

              When did Jesus ever dine with a prostitute and one of the men who paid to have sex with her?   To do so would have suggested He approved of their sin, but He did neither.  The idea that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute is a fallacy and I don’t think it’s been suggested, except, perhaps, by some very sick people, that the Blessed Virgin Mary or Martha (sister of Lazarus) or Mary the mother of Cleopas ever engaged in prostitution.  What other women did Jesus dine with?  
              For a cardinal to dine with two homosexual men who are sex partners suggests that he approves of their sin and in today’s world, that suggests approval of  the “right” of two men, or two women, to “marry” — not a message a Catholic prelate should be sending.   Should Cardinals dine with married people who are known to be having an affair, who are committing adultery?  

              • Edward

                Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners, as the Gospel relates.  Your reaction above was exactly what the Pharisees were saying as they looked on in disapproval. 

              • Gneiss

                 Again and again Christ dines with sinners. He never holds back from doing so. Always the Jewish authorities were stunned, and reacted by saying it was evidence he was not a holy man. Yet we know that is not true. It is an expression of Christian love and of humility to treat no one differently for any sin they commit, but that does not mean the sin is being validated.
                Equally, I am personally very worried and scpetical of the Medjugorje visions, but I will not condemn or refuse to pray with friends who believe.  Until the Church’s prayer for wisdom has been answered and the Vatican can pass judgement we must live not in fear but in Hope that God has been at work there.

              • zcastaux

                Definitely not! However, it may not always be entirely within their power… I was surprised to see that the ‘minders’ (or the ‘relationship brokers’) of ex-president Sarkozy of France had managed to get a ‘private audience’ for him and his ‘newish’ wife, Carla Bruni, and the mum of Carla, and at least 2 of Sarkozy’s children, with Pope Benedict XVI; the pictures of this ‘private meeting’ were in Paris Match (famous French pictorial newsmagazine). Sarkozy had been suddenly and rapidly divorced from his regular wife and mother of his children, just around the time of his election. An Italian socialite model, Bruni, then suddenly became the ‘First Lady of France’ and it was loudly trumpeted in the press that ‘even the President’ was an example of a ‘blended family’ (now known as ‘UNE FAMILLE COMPOSEE’, in modern French). I guess that the Pope could not have managed to avoid this arranged meeting, or the cameramen. It was the same kind of ‘deal’, probably, that managed to organize a “Holy Communion” wafer to be given to Bro. Roger, of Taize Protestant fame, just by ‘accident’ when he was pushed forward at an embarrassing moment, in a large public Mass.

          • pete

            It seems that “the all religions are equal” in Croatian refers CONCRETELY TO “people of all religions are equal in God’s love for them. That’s the sense of the Croatian phrasing.

          • http://www.facebook.com/dr.paologasparini Paolo Gasparini

            This is not true at all. Cardinal Schomborn did not approve same sex “marriage”. You are not correct. He is one of the closest cardinals to the mind and the heart of the Holy Father.

            • MCP

              Paolo Gasparini,
              From Matt Abbott:
              From CatholicCulture.org:Overruling one of his parish priests, Cardinal Christoph Schönborn of Vienna has permitted a homosexual in a registered domestic partnership to serve on a parish council. Father Gerhard Swierzek, the parish priest of a small parish in the archdiocese, had refused to allow Florian Stangl, 26, to serve on the council…. Cardinal Schönborn said that he had initially intended to uphold the priest’s decisionbut then, he said, ‘I ask myself in these situations: How did Jesus act? He first saw the human being.’ Calling his decision ‘a decision for human beings,’ the cardinal recounted that he invited Stangl and his partner to lunch and understood ‘why the community had given him the most votes, because he is really impressive.’I asked Father Richard Perozich, a priest of the Diocese of San Diego, to comment on the above story.Father responded, “Unfortunately, this action [on the part of Cardinal Schönborn] will validate homosexual behavior for that local church against Christ’s teachings.”He added:”Catholics who are in a sexual relationship outside of marriage … scandalize the faithful and lead them away from Jesus. Repentance, [in this case] turning away from homosexual behavior first in a public way since a domestic partnership has been established, is the first step. Conversion to Jesus by decrying old behavior and public promise of chastity is the second step. Repairing the damage through life-long counsel to others with homosexual attraction to live chastely is the third step…”

              • zcastaux

                Thank you for this. It must always, always be said and said more often. And yes, this comment also applies to other forms of co-habitation.

          • Guest

            One of the visionaries (I believe it was Vicka) asked the Blessed Virgin if pilgrims to Medjugorie should convert to the Catholic faith.  The Blessed Virgin replied they should not convert to the Catholic faith, but if they faithfully practiced their own religion and they would go to Heaven. What if their religion was a false cult, atheism, or Satanism?

            • MCP

              Exactly what we should ask.
              Is Voodoo dear to Jesus? Is Brazilian Macumba demonism dear to Our Lady? How
              about Tantrik Hinduism in which one practices necrophilia? Really? Are we really
              being told to respect religions, where cannibalism is ritually practiced and
              that these religions are dear to God?
              Didn’t Our Lady of Guadalupe’s appearance in Mexico put an end to babies being sacrificed to false Gods by the Astecs?  (This is why Our Lady of Guadalupe is the patroness of the Pro-Life movement.)
              And now Medjugorje wants us to believe that Our Lady is contradicting herself by approving of people who worship in false religions?  Not very likely.
              Thank you for pointing that out.

          • Prunella

            Oh do tell, am all ears. Dish the filth.

            And polish that mirror while you’re at it.

        • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

          Cardinal Schonborn is an idiot.

      • Kevin Symonds

        Prof. Kainz,Peace be with you! I would like to thank you for writing a provocative piece on Medjugorje.I would like to make a finer observation.Pope Leo XIII did in fact have a vision. However, the historical record is not clear at this time as to the contents of that vision.Leo’s personal secretary, Msgr. Rinaldo Angeli, relayed to Cardinal Nasalli (Bologna Archdiocese) that there was a vision and it was of demons congregating upon the Eternal City.The above is all we know of the vision’s contents (with reasonable certitude). We also know the vision happened sometime between January 6, 1884 and March 31, 1886. The famous “conversation” legend appears to have been propagated by Fr. Domenico Pechenino (d. 1950), former Major Rector of the Oblates of the Virgin Mary in Italy. This is not to say the story originated with him, but he did propagate it. His version was never corrobrated.I hope the above helps.In Christ,-Kevin J. SymondsM.A.Author: “Private Revelation: What Does the Catholic Church Teach” (forthcoming).

        • Howard Kainz

           I have heard that Fr. Pechenino was the source of the eye-witness account, but I haven’t heard any reason to doubt his veracity.

          • Kevin Symonds

            Prof. Kainz,

            Peace be with you!  I have been working on an essay that discusses this matter.  Would you like to read the draft?  It may provide you with some helpful answers.

            • Howard Kainz

               Why don’t you summarize some of the conclusions you have come to for us?  I presume you have doubts about Fr. Pechenino’s account.

              • Kevin Symonds

                I am afraid that I will not do that until after the paper is published, Professor.

                In the meantime, you have the highlights.

    • MCP

      Saint John Vianney, an old hand at defeating the devil did say that the devil was very stupid indeed. 

      • kd13

        The devil is an angel and angels are pure intellect and will (CCC 330), so although prideful, the devil still has intellectual faculties.

    • Mrsnoahmoerbeek

      Satan is actually very smart, if he gets more people to accept minor errors, which has been done through these alleged apparitions. Is God working in the lives of people who go there? I have no doubt, but that doesn’t mean the visionaries are not false. They’re contradictory and disobedient, neither being marks of someone receiving genuine messages. I know people who changed their lives for the better after joining false churches, that doesn’t mean that those religions are pleasing to God.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Anthony-Domet/519546991 David Anthony Domet

        Exactly!

    • schmoozer59

      The Devil is doing exactly what he is doing: sowing confusion among the faithful.

      • Gummy

         The only confusion being sown is through the detractors /attackers of the profound gift of  Our Lady of Medjugorje!

        • Tancred

          Yes, never mind that flagrant heresy, lies, disobedience and deception.

          • Gummy

             What you said is the confusion being sown.  None of these statements is true! 

            • Laramie Stewart

              It’s a scam.

            • Maryg

              But they are true. I followed it from the beginning and when the disobedience became apparent I knew I could not follow any longer.

      • Gummy

         Those who believe Our Lady is appearing to the seers and working miracles in our lives, are not at all confused!  We have clarity for the first time in our lives since God’s healing hand is there.

        • Desertwatch333

          July 4th. Gummy – you are NOT defending Our Lady, you are defending an alleged apparition of Our Lady.  I admire your love and loyalty to Our Lady and I will pray that she will help you get through all this until Rome decides. Is it coincidence that after so much is being written about the same 2 sentence banal ‘messages’ all of a sudden a long and more complex message comes through?  And the greatest and most horrendous atrocity of our time – the slaughter of preborn human babies by the MILLIONS for so many, many years is rarely, if ever, mentioned by this particular ‘apparition’ supposed to be Mary, the mother of those babies, the mother of us all.  The truth will be made known but, again, Our Lady has never followed seers around to appear at their whim the way these seers claim she does.  They go on a trip to Italy and Mary follows, etc…this is demeaning to the Mother of God and our Mother…that’s the way I feel. But I respect your belief.

          • Gummy

             July 5th.  Desertwatch333 – Thank you for respecting my belief.  It would be good if all the detractors and critics of Medjugorje would show some respect for the 6 seers and the villagers, priests, bishops who have been there, have sacrificed so much, for the many pilgrims whose lives have been changed forever because those people all said yes to God in spite of the attacks.  I have heard so much slander against their characters, false suppositions about their motives, exaggerations about human errors, and on and on.  It is quite embarrassing to hear such attacks of Catholics against other Catholics who are only responding to God’s Grace.  There has been a great unifying process for the millions of people who have been affected in such a positive way by Our Lady of Medjugorje. 

            It is a shame that people cannot see that if this has gone on for 31 years and has not been officially condemned, there must be something to it!  Why would the Church continue to allow such a massive deception of the devil to occur?  They would not!  This alone speaks eloquently to the veracity of the apparitions of Our Lady.  I am defending Our Lady, the Mother of God and my Mother, in Medjugorje and at all valid apparition sites, and will continue to do so to my dying breath…

            • Gabriella

               Gummy, the Catholic Church does not recognize these apparitions as genuine, as coming from God…please, read up on it. The Holy See prohibited visits to Medugorje but people disobeyed.

              • Desertwatch333

                July 11th: Gabriella, although I believe that Gummy goes too far in promoting Medjugorje, you have said something that is totally false: the Holy See has NEVER prohibited visits to Medjugorje – Cardinal Schonborn and other high prelates have visited Medjugorje.  The Holy See prohibited official pilgrimages led by Priests/Bishops to Medjugorje.  Until the Holy See makes an official declaration about Medjugorje one way or the other, people can feel free to visit Medjugorje in a private manner. 

            • Twohrts3

              I have been to Medjugorje twice – I was skeptical at first and asked the Holy Spirit to reveal to my heart if Our Blessed Mother was truly appearing there…I can tell you that thousands of people have returned to the faith, and hundreds and hundreds of priests can trace their call to the priesthood to Medjugorie – marriages have been saved and those with addictions set free…this is not the work of satan!  when we try and “figure out” what Our Lady will do based on what she did in past apparitions we are being arrogant in thinking that Our Lady is somehow bound by our own human limitations…at the time of Fatima people weren’t traveling all over the world by plane and there was no such thing as computers and cell phones or land lines for that matter!  So of course Our lady didn’t “travel” with the visionaries..however we know that both Lucia and Bernadette had visits with Our lady in their respective convents after the apparitions in Fatima and Lourdes…so why wouldn’t Our lady appear to the visionaries wherever they are in the world?  She is not limited by time or space!  As for the disobedience that has been written about – we all know that Jesus was accused of disobedience against His Jewish faith when he healed on the sabbath, and ate with sinners, and allowed his disciples to eat the grain on the sabbath…in these last days we know that the hieracrchy of the church will eventually succomb to the evil one and there will be a split in our beloved church where those true believers will have to go underground to worship and consecrate the bread and wine….we know that there are Masons right at the Vatican so why are we surprised when there is confusion and when even Our Blessed Mother might contradict something the church is doing or saying?  My faith is in Jesus Christ and is not based on whether or not Medjugorje is true or not…I will abide by whatever the church decides…but I think the person who wrote this original article sounds like one of the Pius X people who are radical and cultish..

            • Christie

              Also Gummy, Our Pope Benedict XVI, when he was Bishop Ratzinger, went to Medjugorje 3 times before he became pope and I know for a fact that Pope John Paul II, left a pair of his shoes in his will, to Marjia so she can bring them to Medjugorje as if he went there on a pilgrimage <3.  So as you know our church really does not condemn Medjugorje.  And I compliment you on your wonderful words and your defending of Medjugorje and your faith.  God Bless.  I am leaving for Medjugorje in August and I will be staying with Ivan again.  Being at an apparition with our Lady everyday is absolutely wonderful.  The love and the peace that she brings and we feel is over whelming (the love she has for us )

              • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

                Typical of Medjugorians, you present a bald faced lie in saying Ratzinger ever went to Medjugorje.

                • http://twitter.com/judypbailey Judy Bailey

                  He did indeed and Pope Frances approved his Priest going to Medjugorje and knows Fr. Jozo personally and has been blessed by him. He also approved Ivan to come into Argentina churches and speak

              • Catherine Winston

                Where is that proof that Pope John Paul 11 left a pair of his shoes in his will to Marjia so it would be as if he went there. What foolishness. Do people really believe that a man of his intellingence really did that? He was in Croatia twice and never once visited Medjugorje. Why? People just want to ignore that when the local Bishop makes a ruling it is accepted by the Hirearchey. The reason there is any investigation is because of the large numbers who continue to believe in the apparitions. The Medjugorje site is already saying that the Church may not make a decision in our Lifetime or that they may give a negative decision. I wonder why they would say that. Surely Our Lady has Told them what will happen. Medjugorje just does not make sense. I looked at the messages at the beginning of March and beginning of April 2013 and they are both basically the same. It seems Our Lady is repeating herself in the messages she is giving.

                • Pilgrim

                  I have seen the shoes. They are in a clear acrylic case in the lodge owned by Mirjana. They were given to her. With regard to Our Lady repeating herself, all mothers do that. Mothers tell their children to do the right thing over and over again until there is compliance. Our Lady says to use your five stones against Satan. They are as follows: daily prayer (especially the rosary), fasting (Wed. and Fri.), the Eucharist (attending holy mass), reading scripture (Bible), and confession (a least once monthly). Makes sense to me that she would repeat herself on these things, and others, because as a universal church, we have become very side-tracked, divided, preoccupied, and distracted from her son, Jesus. Her hand is open and beckoning us to follow Him through these five actions. I think it is possible to do these things if only we would quit picking at each other and start. Let us not worry about secrets, the Apocalypse, or other things. Let us do as she tells us and bring peace to this troubled world. “Mir, mir, mir.”

            • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

              Sacrificed? How, by stealing their money, becoming rich, and mocking authentic devotion to the Mother of God?

            • Catherine Winston

              it is a sin when a Bishop makes a ruling on a subject and the faithful continue to publicly accept it. By doing this you are accusing the Bishop of lying in his Ruling. You ask how the Church has allowed this to go on for 31 years. It has’nt. People have just ignored the rulings of the various commissions set up to examine the so called Apparitions and they ruled that they were “not Supernatural”. How else is Satan going to achieve his goal that he asked of God, which was to win over many Souls for himself . He just needs the followers to be disobedient and listen to him. I too would always defend Our Lady, but she would very much defend the Bishops of her Sons Church (who are the descendants of the Apostles) and the decisions they make. I believe people should look up the accepted Seers of the Catholic and compare them to the Seers of Medjugorje. There is such a difference. The site: Mystics of the Catholic Church is a great place to read up on the different mystics. It is one of the reasons why i find Medjugorje very hard to believe.

            • Michelle

              Gummy—The Catholic Church cannot investigate ANY alleged “apparition” until said “apparitions” cease. As long as they continue, the investigation is to be held off. Lots of good there is done by people praying the Rosary…Priests hearing confessions…healing Masses by Priests such as Fr. Rookey, etc.

              Those Franciscans have had a beef with their diocese (Mostar) since the 70s. By not obeying the Bishop, they lost faculties to say Mass, perform weddings, hear confessions, (the expelled priests). So in essence, there could be MANY invalid Sacraments there…INCLUDING Vicka’s wedding…The REAL Our Lady wouldn’t stay and condone these things—and give prophecies that haven’t come true in 30 years.

              Yes on the Vatican’s website, they answered a French Bishop in 20005 (so the document’s in that language) that Medugorje is a parish like any other in the world—BUT—they do not want priests doing pilgrimages there officially, to promote it as an apparition site, when it is not.

          • Christie

            Desertwatch, Our Mother would definately follow the visionaries and us around.  Isnt that what mothers do.  I followed my children around all the time, because the needed me, as we all need her.  And they travel to spread her good word and it is her who wants to appear to them, so she wants to be where ever they are so she can appear to them and give them their messages (no matter where they are).  You see, this is what she wants.  They are doing Gods will, and so is She.  It is not demeaning to her.  She is a messenger of God and Jesus and this is why she is hear, her being here is a grace from God and she is spreading love and trying to get people back to Her Son and to God and back to church (keep holy the sabbeth day).  So this is not their whim but Her will to be with them where ever they are, which is Gods Will…..  What she started in Fatima, she will finish in Medjugorje.  This will all happen in our life time.  So dont put it down, embrace this grace and be ready for our Lord.  You need to go to a Medjugorje website and read her messages.  They are NEVER about her, she never makes it about her.  It is always about God and Her Son, our Lord Jesus.  That is the real thing.  not evil but good.   God Bless :)

            • Desertwatch333

              Christie, Our Lady, as far as I know, was always the one to tell her children where she would appear; it was never the visionaries who would tell her that they were going to such and such a place so she would have to meet them there.  And you, Christie, as a mother – what would you do if someone were seriously harming or killing your children?  Millions and millions and millions of Our Lady’s children are being slaughtered brutally in the wombs of their mothers and in all these years since the alleged apparitions, Our Lady has only rarely – if ever – spoken about this at Medjugorje.  These are the innocents, created and sent by God and returned to Him broken and unwanted. I worked with Mother Teresa in Calcutta and she said that the source of all evil in our society stems from abortion, the slaughter of the innocents. How could a mother – Mary – not even mention this?!  I asked the Medjugorje group in Alabama and they sent a nasty response so I never bothered again…the slaughter of the innocents is the most horrendous crime of our century and is leading to post-birth abortion … and yet, this is not mentioned by the apparition in Medjugorje…I will honor whatever Rome decides and will continue to love Our Lady who is always near…bless you.

          • Princessywca

            Actually she did addressa abortion a number of times………….

            • coco2

              I’d like you to give a link to actual writings that prove this. I’ve seen nothing.

              • logic*

                There are books with all the messages from Medjugorie. Don’t trust excerpts.

          • JackJoe

            demeaning???
            that is absurd.
            please read my rather (*cough) l o n g comment above. I would repaste it hear but treally, it is pretty long. :)
            but Peace, always peace. and again: As Catholics we are Never Required to believe in ANY Apparitions.
            The Creed.
            Only The Creed – everything else is gravy –
            And The Sacraments help us in ways we can only Guess At!

            Peace my friend.

          • JackJoe

            but, again, Our Lady has never followed seers around to appear at their whim the way these seers claim she does.

            forgive me desertwatch, but that does Not sound at all in any way,
            ‘respectful of her belief’. it sounds how you feel – that she is simple minded and/or gullible and mislead to believe this.
            Have you gone yourself?
            Have you Prayed for wisedom on this topic or assumed you already have it?
            and this is not meant as an attack, but simply pointing out the true tone of the words. this is a common thing among human beings, to think ‘we’ know better than the majority of people. it is also what keeps us from many Graces.

            To treat all people with great love, and as true equals is when we can truly know we are on the right path for the right reasons.
            Peace be with you.

        • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

          Does this include the “clarity” to now become promoters of abortion as some of the “converts” have been “inspired” to do?

          • Michelle

            James, could you “clarify” this please? Thanks! ;-)

          • LizEst

            Hi James – I didn’t know this and would like to have the citation for this information. Would you kindly direct me to where I may learn more? Thanks so much…and God bless you.

      • JackJoe

        The Catholic Church has alweays said: You do NOT have to BELIEVE in ANY of The Marian Apparitions, any of them!
        Remember The Creed.
        THAT is ALL we MUST Believe to be True Catholics.
        Nothing else must be believed – so if you find it confusing, worrisome, uncertain – then step away.
        Go back to what you DO know.
        Him.
        Him in The Sacraments.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/David-Anthony-Domet/519546991 David Anthony Domet

      The division and scandal is an indication that it is not from heaven. Frankly, even Fatima is cnsidered “private revelation” and as a Catholic, I don’t have to believe it to be true, that does not say that I don’t, however. You don’t need Medjugorje, you don’t need pilgrimmages to make others rich.  Go to Church, God is in the tabernacle.

      • Gummy

         Luke 12: 51-56
        51 ‘Do you suppose that I am here to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division.

        52 For from now on, a household of five will be divided: three against two and two against three;

        53 father opposed to son, son to father,
        mother to daughter, daughter to mother, mother-in-law to
        daughter-in-law, daughter-in-law to mother-in-law.’

        54 He said again to the crowds, ‘When you see a cloud looming up in the west you say at once that rain is coming, and so it does.

        55 And when the wind is from the south you say it’s going to be hot, and it is.

        56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret
        the face of the earth and the sky. How is it you do not know how to
        interpret these times?

        • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

          How dare you use the Gospel to endorse a crackpt phony apparition. It does not follow that because Our Lord pointed out that their is a human hostility towards truth reflected by divided human thought, that divisions are an intrinsic good in themselves and a sign that the event creating the division must be the side that reflects truth.

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/DSQYRUWPJEVUUZ5EFIGNCHJDNI Richard M.

        True, we don’t have to believe in Medjugorje.  I trust the Church’s judgement.

    • Desertwatch333

      Not as a result of Medjugorje Dave but as a result of a person’s faith and the grace of God…

    • Tony

       I read, several months back, that a Canadian priest, commenting on Medjugorje stated, “The devil is good with a few hundred conversions just as long as there are thousands who are disobedient to the local Bishop.” Definitely “food for thought.”

      • Catholic

        With all due respect, I don’t think You are eligible to talk about the disobedience to Mr. Periç (local bishop)! I lived in that area and there has always been disagreements between local Franciscans and bishop’s order and , in my personal opinion, bishop is using his position to degrade Medjugorje as much as possible! Believe it or not, but there is something going on there and by “something” , I don’t refer to anything that is against the Catholic Church and Christ’s teachings..
        PS Pope had intention to separate Medjugorje from the influence of local bishop Peric as He saw the negative influence that he is spreading..
        I apologize for any grammar mistakes :)

        Regards,
        Medjugorje believer

        • http://www.facebook.com/james.haraldson.5 James Haraldson

          You’re lying. The only reason the Vatican is investigating this phony apparition in the first place is because Bishop Peric requested it. The negative influence is from those who promote this obviously false apparition.

          • Catholic

            Lying? Well, thank you for correcting me, Mr. It’s not like I have been living in Medjugorje for my entire life or sth..
            And how can it be negative influence toward Medjugorje apparition from those who support it? Have you ever been there? Do you even know ANYTHING about it?
            PS My knowledge about Medjugorje is from my own experience and I sure do not lie :)

            Sincerely

    • Mac

      Way more likely that the BVM accidentally appeared as Satan.  /sarc

    • Matthew Roth

      Yes he is. It’s extremely difficult for angelic beings to maintain human form, and it is especially difficult considering Satan is taking on the person who shall crush him. 

    • Catholic

      I agree!
      So far, I saw no bad “results” of Medjugorje!

    • James

      Satan is a being with intelligence superior to ours, he knows we have a desire to seek out knowledge of things we ought not to know and that we are prone to be rebelliousness.

      Satan hates us and wants us to worship him instead of God and he and his Demons will do anything to confuse us; including momentarily appearing as himself so as to make us sin in a very great way against God.

      Medjugorje is false, the fact that people have entered the faith as a result of visiting Medjugorje does not prove it is valid but rather that our God can turn things around and bring about good from mans failings.

      May I suggest attending Mass regularly and praying our Rosaries everyday, (as our Lady of Fatima requested on several occasions) so as to be protected and not be attracted to false devotions like Medjugorje.

    • Raguel

      Not really, a controversy surrounding this would have the effect of muddying the waters regarding fatima. Fatima says some pretty harsh things, specifically about Hell. Satan can’t touch the Blessed Mother, but he can create his own apparition to create controversy.

      The effect being that people will then say “private apparition is not necessary for salvation, look at the controversy Medjugorje. So I’m not going to pay attention to Fatima either.”

      And I was at Medjugorje, and it is certainly a great place to go for a retreat. Lots of people are receiving the sacraments, lots of confessions and lots of rosaries being said. However, there are also a lot of people benefiting from the tourism. But Satan could be allowing that good to occur so as to bring about greater evil.

    • Tori Tracey
  • Pingback: Chiara Petrillo Plenary Indulgence Medjugorje SSPX Sts. Peter & Paul | Big Pulpit

  • Donna

     “We hear that all religions are equal (‘Before God all the faiths are
    identical.  God governs them like a king in his kingdom.’) All
    sufferings are equal in hell; and Mirjana quotes the Gospa as telling
    her that people begin feeling comfortable in hell.  As regards the
    afterlife, those who go to heaven after death ‘are present with the soul
    and the body.'”

    Nothing more need be said. If those quotes attributed to Mary are documented, then it is a hoax, and no more need be said. Those who state that the information is incorrect, then please prove the above statements are inaccurate.

    • MCP

      I agree.

      • Howard Kainz

         Most of the early quotes are in the compendium, “Messages and Teachings of Mary at Medjugorje.” The quote about religions is translated differently there. It goes, “All religions are similar before God.  God rules over them just like a sovereign over his kingdom.” 

    • Dave

      Please see my 2nd post.  These quotes are not what I have ever heard.  Mary said that, “all people are equal regardless of religion.”  Also, the statement about the afterlife is correct, at least as far as a final state.  It is not clear.  I have never heard the quote about hell.  There also can be translation errors.  

      Regardless, the investigators have, presumably, the original material, and will be able to sort all of that out.  All we really need to do is lend our prayer support that the right and true decision will be made.

    • Jcsmitty1212

      I’d like to see all the documented sources because I don’t believe the article is quoting them accurately. The very first one I found was misquoted. God loves all persons equally, not just Catholics. The original quote talked about MEMBERS of other faiths, not the faiths themselves.

  • MarieTeresa

    This is a very good summary of some of the defects of this alleged apparition.  I wish more people were familiar with the Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross, and if not him, then with the documents of the Church explaining the process of discernment and the rubrics of the  hierarchy.  It would seem that promoters of this phenomenon are taken as the new Magisterium fostering much dissent and disobedience to the legitimate teachings of the Church on these topics and to the point of perpetually accusing anyone who disagrees with them as not having correct information. Reading some of the cockeyed or even heretical “messages” doesn’t seem to help in their discernment of truth. Why?  Don’t know, but it is frightening in itself.  Mary was and is incapable of the imperfections that we all have as a result of original sin. This means that she never and especially now has even the “first movements” of anger, etc or any imperfections.  Many of the alleged “messages” have Mary reacting in imperfect responses, as with approving priests who are in disobedience to superiors, and in critical remarks about her Son’s rightful Bishop responsible for discernment of the validity.  In all the saints lives, we read that a mystic is told by the Lord to obey superiors, and if the superiors do not bend then the Lord Himself with change their hearts.  No where does a perfect Lord or His perfect Mother tell a bunch of kids to threaten a Bishop to believe them or else she will have her Son punish them. Not to see the error in this is a form of real blindness.
    All in all, these “messages”  have done an outrageous dishonor to our Blessed Mother and to the Church.  All the banal talk and rosaries does not trump obedience. When the Church supports the local bishop’s resolution, there will be a huge, huge pastoral problem with the obedience of the faithful. And that’s exactly what the goal of the devil is.  Get so mad at the Church and and feel justified in doing your own thing, like the Protestants. In the meantime, the still valid message of Fatima is overshadowed. God help us. 

    • Kevin Symonds

      MarieTeresa, regarding people being familiar with the Church’s procedures in these affairs, please keep an eye out for my upcoming book “Private Revelation: What Does the Catholic Church Teach?”

    • MCP

      Marie Teresa, I agree.
      Not to mention the fact that the Apparition’s messages are redundant and boring.  I don’t think Our Blessed Mother is boring.

  • Jcsmitty1212

    This article has much misinformation and messages taken out of context.

    For example, ion your article you say “We hear that all religions are equal (‘Before God all the faiths are identical. God governs them like a king in his kingdom’) , yet the answer from the Gospa  to the question of October 1, 1981, “Are all religions good?” is “MEMBERS of all faiths are equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the worl, all religions are not the same because all people have not complied with the Commandments of God. they reject and disparage them.”

    That’s a big difference since even the Catholic Church does not condemn members of other faiths who, through ignorance, do not accept the Catholic Church.

    Too many holy priests and laity have gone to Medjugorje and, while waiting on the church’s ultimate decision, have found its fruits worthy of belief. This is a very poorly put together article,.

    • Howard Kainz

       The transcripts state: “All the faiths are identical.”  Fr. Laurentin, seeing that this was not quite orthodox, quizzed Vicka later, and she said she meant “all men are equal before God.”

      • Dave

        Yes, according to Donal Foley, that’s what the transcripts state.  Someone has a bias and/or are lying here.  It is not clear who, since there are equally credentialed folks on the other side saying something else.

        The Church commission will be able to sort this out, and then we *may* see who the villains of the story are.   Let’s just pray for the truth to come out!

      • MCP

        “all men are equal before God.”
        That means that at the Last Judgement, there will be no goats.  All will be sheep at His right hand and all will be welcomed into His kingdom.
        Nice concept.  What about women – are they also “all equal before God?”

    • Mrsnoahmoerbeek

      “God rules over each faith.” No, He doesn’t, and that is what makes it false.

      People find “fruits worthy of belief” in Mormonism, that doesn’t make it true.

      • Dave

        How can God not rule over each faith?  He rules over everything, period.  He rules over the Coca-Cola corporation and AIG as well.  That doesn’t mean He sponsors them or that they are true.

        • johnkonnor72

          if God ruled over each faith including the heretical ones then that would mean God would be a heretic..God doesn’t sin…God doesn’t purvey errors..he permits evil through free will and the permissiveness of self mastery however he is not the author of sin…read up on theodicy..God is omnibenevolent through his act of creation and the concept of free agency evil choices that are made if attributable to God would imply a contradiction in the nature of God….God indeed rules over the devil however he does not make choices for the devil…God rules over his creation through the eternal law to aid humans he sets a natural law to which humans may participate which is imprinted on each creature according to their mode of being…”Since things act according to their nature, they derive their proper acts and
          ends (final cause) according to the law that is written into their nature.
          Everything in nature, insofar as they reflects the order by which God directs
          them through their nature for their own benefit, reflects the Eternal Law in
          their own natures” thomas aquinas…when humans p[articipate according to the natural law they are indeed acting within the eternal law by which God holds dominion….humans have dominion over the natural law however God holds dominion over the eternal law…humans through freed agency are able to rule over their own destiny..and so it is not correct to say God rules over humans free agency….God rules over the eternal law which is the ordered end of the world..humans have freedom to mete out their own destiny and rule over the natural law as they commit themselves to their own choices by establishing false religions….by saying God rules over false religions you are saying God through his coercive power is a king whom makes bad choices….”Humans actively participate in the eternal law of God (the governance of the
          world) by using reason in conformity with the Natural Law to discern what is
          good and evil. “…thomas aquinas

  • Brian Kelly

    Excellent summation. I posted a short column on catholicism.org two days ago on Medjugorje, called Secrets, Secrets, Secrets.  I wish that I had had some of your information. I will add a link to your article. Thanks.

  • Calsub11

    Why don’t you cite sources, the message about all faiths being equal, where is citation
    The madonna supposedly says i dont dispose of all graces, when and where did the visionaries claim she said this?

    • Howard Kainz

       See Laurentin & Lejeune, Messages and Teachings, p. 189.

    • Reclavea

      I too have followed the events very carefully. Given that these are translations, I’ve read up on a bunch of the supposed descrepencies in the article, however, not any where near the what this article portrays.

      For my part, I submit to the Magisterium of the Church as we all should.

      Of interest however, is……. The call to fasting, prayer, the Rosary, confession and the Eucharist in Medjugorje. “How can Satan cast out Satan?”

      • Greg

        Exactly. As others have already suggested, if this is some sort of demonic ruse, the devil is doing a horrible job of leading people astray with all his demands for confession, adoration of the Eucharist, etc. I mean, if he said all that and then added, “Oh, and by the way, worship the goddess Venus while you’re at it”, we’d have a problem. Given there are no such addendums…???

  • Jcsmitty1212

    I have a lot of problems with this article, which is largely unsourced but heavily dependent on a website opposed to Medjugorje and Caritas.

    The apparitions have been going on for more than 25 years, yet we are asked to believe that six visionaries conspired to fool hundreds of thousands of people and maintain their stories while now living in different countries, etc. Cardinals and bishops–and even Pope John Paul II–found the Medjugorje events credible, even though there won’t be a final determination from the Holy See until the apparitions cease or the Vatican finds heresy before that. It has not found heresy that I’m aware of.

    I would like to ask the author where the documentation is coming from. Don’t forget that translations from Croatian into other languages can sometimes come across badly. Saint Faustina’s Diary is a perfect example of that, wherein the Diary was put on the forbidden list for a time due to a poor translation of the Polish.

    I also would like to point out that Fatima, while an approved apparition, has also had its share of misinformation. Who of us hasn’t read an alleged “Third Secret of Fatima” going around the internet that is totally different from the one released by then-Cardinal Ratzinger under the papacy of John Paul II in 2000.

    I don’t have access to original translations nor do I speak Croation. but I do have books in English with the purported messages themselves–and they do not match many of the alleged messages in this article.

    I know many pious people who went to Medjugorje as skeptics who came back impressed by what they experienced there. Many saw the sun dance, some came back converted or stronger in their faith, etc. I will await the Holy See’s final determination and keep an open mind until then, but I’ve seen no real evidence that this is a fraud. Quite the contrary. 

     

    • GregB

      Well said. I believe it was St. Bernadette who was firmly convinced that Mary was not Immaculate…and the list goes on.

    • Michael Seaman

      Note to Jcsmitty1212: The documentation is coming from anti-Medjugorje sources. That’s all you need to smear Medj. (And this passes as an article by an alleged academic.)

  • schmoozer59

    The ‘test’ of obedience will come if and when the Church finally decides on the Medjugorje phenomena. If it rules in disfavor of the events, let us see how many Medjugorje devotees will rise up against the Church and cause more pain and suffering in the Body of Christ.

    • WolfsbaneBlogger

      That’s the main thing that scares me about a decision on Medjugorje by the Church: the possibility of schism.  There is fanaticism on both sides of the issue: I have heard Medjugorje devotees say they’ll leave the Church if She condemns the apparitions (or maybe even simply does not endorse them), but I’m almost certain there are some critics of Medjugorje who would leave if the Church approves of the apparitions.  I just pray that when the Church makes her decision (which sounds like it’ll be around the year’s end), those on both sides of the issue will trust the Church more than themselves.

      • Desertwatch333

        I believe that in every legitimate apparition so far obedience has been key.  Even when Church authorities were skeptical, obedience was required by Our Lady.  In the lives of the saints, obedience is required unless one is asked to commit sin. In the life of the little flower, I believe her Superior asked her to catch/kill rats and she did. If Our Lady is still appearing – if this is authentic, she would not have said that all religions/faiths are equal because only the Catholic Church holds the fullness of faith but – she might have said that she loves all her children equally and that is true because Jesus died for all and loves all and desires the salvation of all.  All go to God through Christ but the pathway to and through Christ may differ…otherwise those of the Jewish Faith would be excluded – I don’t believe Our Lady is appearing at the whim of the visionaries although I do believe she appeared at the beginning. Now it seems as if wherever the visionaries go, Our Lady must follow them – if one wants to vacation in Italy, Our Lady must appear there…people of good faith are on both sides of this argument so the debate should be held with respect.  Our Lady surely would not approve of anything vicious – let the Church decide.  Pray for the truth to be made known…and live in peace and brotherhood as Our Lady desires.

    • Desertwatch333

      The ‘test of obedience’ – I’m wondering what you think about Fr. Pavone openly defying his bishop and his followers storming the Bishop’s property carrying signs and calling him terrible names. Fr. Pavone’s followers think that Fr. Pavone’s Bishop should submit to him – and through it all Fr. Pavone has been sending out massive amounts of e-mails demanding money urgently, telling people to send him the largest amount of money possible or babies would die. We discussed this in Washington at the March for Life and people were furious at his relentless demands.  In each e-mail he would demand money over and over again…obedience…every real saint obeyed their superior, that was always the ‘test’ of authenticity.  As for Medjugorje, I don’t doubt for a moment that Our Lady reaches out to those who pilgrimage there in the hopes of meeting her…their faith is sincere and their longing is real…they will not be disappointed.  But, for some reason, I do not believe she is appearing to the seers – I wish I could believe, but I don’t.  In a couple of weeks I’ll be having dinner with a friend who just returned from Medjugorje…so, we’ll see.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001081531391 Mike Gannon

    Another good article on Medj is called “The Truth About Medjugorje” by Bishop Zanic. Google it. There is also great Catholic news and commentary on catholicurrent.com.

  • LizEst

    Buyer beware!  Though a lot of pious folk believe in Medjugorje, we do well to wait until the Church reaches Her conclusions–and more so because of all the controversy associated with it.  The devil is very intelligent and can, as long as God permits it, come up with some very convincing imitations, which always show themselves to be false by being unable to completely duplicate authentic supernatural phenomena, though they can come very, very close to such.  The case of Sister Magdalena of the Cross is one example of false phenomena.  Magdalena had a pact with the devil for 40 years…and many authorities believed her.  This is must reading:
    http://www.mysticsofthechurch.com/2011/12/sister-magdalena-of-cross-nun-who-made.html

    Even if the Church formally approves of Medjugorje, we will be free to believe or not to believe.  Private revelation is not a tenet of our faith.  In Jesus Christ, God has said everything.  Authentic private revelation neither adds to Scripture nor subtracts from it.  Authentic private revelation is always obedient to the Church, the Body of Christ.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Tish-Morgna/100000098075242 Tish Morgna

    If the converts you speak of are disobedient to the lawful commands of the bishops of the Church, then their conversion isn’t real.   When one converts to the true faith, obedience to Holy Mother Church in Her bishops is necessary.  The “fruits” these “seers” are invoking are nothing more than cult members.

    Yes Dave, the devil does make mistakes like accidentally appearing as himself.  He is a fallen angel, a creature, not the creator.  He is fallible.

  • Yaya

    Wow, and you didnt even mention the reprobate who was the spiritual director of the so-called “Seers”…. Fr. Tomilsav Vlasic.

    • duh

      My bad, you did. I must have missed it at the end.

  • Mark

    If Satan is responsible for hundreds of thousands of people returning to the Sacrament of Confession, the USCCB should be asking him for pointers.

    • Michael Seaman

      Good point. But then again, if you are Diane, you could just give all the credit to the evil one and state that it was, contrary to Scripture, the Catholic Church working through Satan.

  • Pingback: What is happening at Medjugorje?

  • GregB

    “There was a question asked of Our Lady in October 1981 which was: Are
    all religions the same? Our Lady answered: ‘Members of all faiths are
    equal before God. God rules over each faith just like a sovereign over
    his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because all
    people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and
    disparage them’.”

    http://www.medjugorje.org/faq.htm#no20

    MEMBERS of all faiths are equal before God. Not “all faiths are equal.” In fact, Our Lady goes on in almost the very next sentence to say, “all religions are NOT the same…” In other words, per the teaching of Romans 2, in a manner of speaking, God couldn’t care less what you believe, He cares about what you do, who you are as a person. Catholics aren’t any more “special” than anyone else just because they attend a Catholic church. CatholicISM, on the other hand, is the only religion that complies with ALL of God’s commandments and stands out among all others as superior for that reason.

    The aforementioned is but one among many misunderstandings promulgated by the article above that lead me to both dismiss it and to urge caution among those who think they have Medjugorje “all figured out” based on stuff they read on the internet or some detractor’s book. The commission will give us a final and authoritative pronouncement when the appropriate time comes. In the meantime, do not delay your conversion. If Medjugorje be proved false, you will not have wasted your time. If it be proved true, and the comments regarding the 10 secrets being given are true, you will be very thankful later for all the effort you put into your conversion now. Let’s leave it at that for now. Pray, pray, pray…

  • M. Nagel

    Professor Kainz,

    I agree with the previous commentator who stated that your article has inaccuracies.

    I encourage you to visit Medjugorje yourself.  

     

    You wrote:
    “Numerous attempts have been made to subject the visionaries to testing by experts.  However, when experts came from various countries in 1984, 1987, 1988, 1992 and 1995, to test the visionaries, they either claimed to be sick, or that Our Lady had “paused” in her appearances, or they simply did not cooperate.”

    A simple internet search would have given you much information about the extensive testing that the visionaries have been subject to.  

    See: http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_15_2_pandarakalam.pdf

    http://www.cbismo.com/index.php?mod=vijest&vijest=827 

    http://www.marcocorvaglia.com/medjugorje-en/medjugorje-science-demonstrates-nothing-part-1.html 
    Also 
    June 27, 1981The fourth day after the apparitions began in Medjugorje, a local doctor by the name of Dr. Ante Bijevic examined the visionaries for the first time as arranged by the police in nearby Citluk. His observations were that the children were well balanced.
    June 29, 1981Two days later the children were taken to a psychiatric clinic in Mostar, the nearest city, by the police. A psychiatrist, Dr. Dzudza Mulija, examined them and concluded that the children were normal. According to Vicka, Dr. Dzudza stated: “It is the people who brought you here that are insane. You are absolutely normal.” 1
    October 1981Four months after the beginning of the apparitions in Medjugorje, Croatian psychiatrist, Nikola Bartulica, interviewed Vicka for over an hour and a half. He drew the same conclusion as the other professionals, that Vicka was normal.1982Fr. Slavko Barbaric, a doctor of social psychology and a Franciscan priest, examined all six visionaries. Fr. Slavko’s findings were also very positive in describing the behavior of the Medjugorje visionaries. He concluded that there was no sign of hallucination and that the children behaved independently from each other. Fr. Slavko would later become more involved in the lives of the visionaries and the parish of Medjugorje.
    1982-1983Dr. Ludvik Stopar was the first doctor to examine the visionaries while in a state of ecstasy. Dr. Stopar is a psychiatrist and parapsychologist from Slovenia. He visited Medjugorje four times: in May 1982, November 1982, June 1983, and November 1983. Through his testing, Dr. Stopar became convinced that the children were normal. He also came to believe that the experience of the children was supernatural.
    March 1983Dr. Mario Botta, with a team of Italian doctors established that the heartbeats of the visionaries were normal. This test among a number of other clinical tests implied that the apparitions did not affect physiological reality in any way.Aug. 23-25, 1983Dr. Phillipe Madre is the founder and director of a clinic for research on the interplay of somatic, psychological and supernatural forces. He was, therefore, well qualified to examine the facts, though he visited Medjugorje more as a deacon than a doctor. His visit was cut short when he was arrested by police and deported on the day after their arrival. Because of this he could only report generally his impressions. It was his opinion that the visionaries were sound in mind and body, and he added, also in their spiritual development.
    Dec. 1983Dr. Botta, a heart surgeon from Milan, returned to Medjugorje to carry out an electrocardiogram on Ivan. Again, he concluded “that ecstasy does not suppress normal physiology but somehow transcends it.”2
    1984The year 1984 the visionaries were tested in Medjugorje by a large number of Italian experts, working independently from each other. Included within this group were Dr. Maria Frederica Magatti, Dr. Lucia Capello, Dr. Enzo Gabrici and Prof. Anna-Maria Franchini. None of them found anything that would imply doubt in their testimony.
    March-Dec. 1984An extremely important and comprehensive series of tests was conducted by a team of French doctors, using highly sophisticated equipment they brought to Medjugorje. Their visits were short in duration, but frequent trips were made to Medjugorje between March and December 1984. Professor Henri Joyuex was the head of the team, a Professor of Cancerology in the Faculty of Medicine at Montpellier and a surgeon at Montpellier’s Cancer Institute. The conclusion he reached from the data collected from their scientific tests was impressive: “…the phenomenon…is scientifically inexplicable…” 3
    Sept. 7,8 & 9, 1985A team of scientists from Italy, directed by Dr. Luigi Frigerio, came to Medjugorje with more detailed testing and sophisticated equipment. Among them was a neuro-physiologist who specialized in the study of “ecstasy”, by the name of Professor Margnelli.
    Oct. 1985On October 20, 1985 the Bishop Of Mostar’s Commissioner’s report stated, in regards to the Medjugorje apparitions, that the foreign doctor’s testimonies were inadmissible, no matter how sophisticated their technology, because they did not speak Serbo-Croatian and had to rely on interpreters.
    Jan. 14, 1986A team of seventeen renowned natural scientists, doctors, psychiatrists and theologians came to a 12-point conclusion on the tests administered by the international French-Italian scientific theological commission concerning the extraordinary events that are taking place in Medjugorje. It was the most competent and thorough collection of scientific data assembled up to this point.Click to 12-Point Report
    April – Dec. 1998At the request of the Parish Office in Medjugorje, the visionaries were asked, once again to go through a battery of tests. Heading the team was Dr. Andreas Resch, Professor of Theology at the Papal University Alfonsianum in Rome and an expert for “twilight realms of science.” They repeated the experiments of the French experts (1984) and the Italian experts (1985), only on a wider scale. As this study was of an equal or greater magnitude as the 1984 and 1985 studies, it became known as the “Medjugorje 3” work group.
    June 25, 2005On the 24th anniversary of the apparitions, the most recent examination was performed, at the request of the Holy See. It brought together again visionaries Ivan and Marija of Medjugorje and Professor Henri Joyeau with a French team of experts, who were given the opportunity to compare the scientific studies of 20 years ago with the present day experiences of the visionaries. Their conclusions were the same and confirmed the results of the testing that took place in 1984-85.End Notes:1. Scientific & Medical Studies on the Apparitions at Medjugorje, p. 122. Ibid., p. 15

    • Howard Kainz

       I personally have no doubt that the six visionaries are “normal.”  In any case, the attempts at scientific investigation I mention are exceptions to the rather extensive list  of investigations that you have compiled. The purpose of the investigations is to determine if anything supernatural is going on, and I haven’t come across evidence for that.

  • Nick H

    The true sign of orthodoxy, in this case, is obedience. Plain and simple.

    Once you start disobeying your bishop, you have shown the “fruits” of your endeavors. And, disobedience cannot be explained as a “mis-translation” either. These six people have disobeyed their bishops numerous times. So have many priests connected with these “events.”

    None of the defenders of the “visionaries” on this thread have addressed the issue of disobedience. Why is that? All they want to talk about is supposed “mis-translations.” Try dealing with their refusal to obey their bishops, over the years, please.

    The Venerable Fulton J. Sheen obeyed his bishop, Cardinal Spellman, when told to stop his very popular television show. He obeyed again, when the cardinal banished him to Rochester, New York. Many believe that Cardinal Spellman was wrong. But, the future saint obeyed his bishop because that is what we are all supposed to do. Even if the bishop is wrong.

    Saint Bernadette obeyed her superior, even though her superior tormented her until she was bed-ridden. She obeyed her bishop, also.

    “Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.” – Hebrews 13:17
    God Bless!

    • Therese

      Yes, obedience is the main sticking point for me as well. It is too easy to be deceived by our own opinions, our own “wisdom.” God in His mercy, gives us the gift of being called to be obedient as a safeguard to our souls.

      Our Lord Himself warns us to be on guard. And obedience is the foundation of being on guard.

      Meanwhile, having read all the comments, I kept being reminded of C.S. Lewis’s book “The Last Battle” which is the seventh and final book in the “Chronicles of Narnia.” Evil disguising itself as Good is an excellent way to cause confusion and lure people into deception while also driving people away from the Truth.

      In the 10th chapter of the Gospel of Matthew, Our Lord said that parents must not love their children more than they love Him — and as a mother I get little glimpses into the heart of God in the love I have for my son.

      If we are not to love even father and mother, son and daughter as much as we love Him, how much more should we not love and seek after alleged apparitions more than we love and seek Christ! Why the desperate chasing after this or that new apparition?

      Christ is truly present — body, blood, soul, and divinity — in the tabernacle and in the adoration chapel at my parish. The Church approves of seeking and finding Christ there. And in obedience I will only seek Christ in places and ways that the Church has ALREADY approved and recommended — not plight my troth to the latest visionaries and prophets in the hopes the Church will someday  approve my opinions on this or that private revelation because it is so exciting.

      Obedience! “By this will all men know that you are my disciples: that you keep my commandments.” And how do we keep His commandments today? Obedience!

      • Nick H

        Excellent comments, Therese. Just excellent.
        God Bless!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Blake-Helgoth/521347499 Blake Helgoth

      So, let’s get this argument straight – the validity of the message depends upon the holiness of the messangers?  That has never been the Church’s stance.  St. Bernadette is a saint because of the holy life she lived in response.  Not all visionaries are saints.

      • Nick H

        Mr. Helgoth,

        I never mentioned the “holiness of the messengers,” did I? Disobedience to the bishop is the only topic that I addressed.

        I agree that true visions do not necessarily depend on how saintly the visionary is at the time of the event. We are all sinners. And, Venerable Fulton Sheen readily admitted that his fame could make him proud at times and that he constantly had to battle this with prayer.

        But, Our Lady would never tell anyone to disobey their bishop. And, if they did disobey him, she would rebuke them and tell them never to do it again. Again, these six people have repeatedly disobeyed their bishops over the decades. This is proof enough for me. 
        Are you asserting that it is okay to disobey your bishop?
        God Bless!

  • Pingback: The Business Of Medjugorje « Mundabor's Blog

  • Nick Childers

    duplicate comment, sorry

  • Nick Childers
  • Nick Childers

    I don’t care about Medjugorje, but I do care about the spirit of disobedience going on among some Catholics, such as overexaggerated devotion to Mary. There’s a difference between propagating the Rosary as a form of Marian devotion and propagating the Rosary as a priority in the Christian life.  (Marialis Cultus, 55) And Catholics need to stop listening to conspiracy theories on Fatima, like thinking you can bring about world peace by praying the Rosary – as if either a revelation or a pious devotion are mandatory. (Theological Commentary on the Message of Fatima, 2) Instead, listen to the Church, who teaches that, by living with the Mind of Christ, we hasten the coming of the Kingdom of God. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2046)

    The aforementioned Church documents deserve a full reading, but here are the relevant quotes:

    Marialis Cultus, 55
    …we
    desire at the same time to recommend that this very worthy devotion should not
    be propagated in a way that is too one-sided or exclusive.

    Theological Commentary on the Message of Fatima, 2
    From one point of view, the
    relationship between Revelation and private revelations appears in the
    relationship between the liturgy and popular piety: the liturgy is the
    criterion, it is the living form of the Church as a whole, fed directly by the
    Gospel. Popular piety is a sign that the faith is spreading its roots into the
    heart of a people in such a way that it reaches into daily life.
    Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2046By living with the mind of Christ, Christians hasten the coming of the Reign of God,…

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Blake-Helgoth/521347499 Blake Helgoth

      The reason that Jesus is not now more known and more loved is that Mary is not now more known and more loved. – St. Louis-Marie de Montfort.  Is is impossible to honor Mary too much.  Plus, there is precedent for miracles resulting from pious devotion (Pious V, the Rosary and the Battle of Lepanto seems to ring a bell).

      • Nick Childers

        Learn from Montfort by learning how to honor Jesus through Mary via learning from Christ through the Church, such as by reading the document Marialis Cultus.

  • Paul

    Every once in a while a negative article about the Medjugorje phenomenon on someone’s website is a siren call for the anti-Medjugorje brigade to surface and express their approval.

    All the old familiar names troop out their endorsement, stamp their feet and scream “Medjugorje fraud!”

    Of course they are free to express their opinion and even condemnation, even if most of them have never set foot in Medjugorje or bothered to get of their backsides to find out just why millions of pilgrims make their way to the village and return grace-filled and renewed. The problem for these critics is not the truth of Medjugorje but within themselves, how they personally respond and react to seeing others setting out on a path to change their lives and returning as witnesses to the love of God in their lives.

    Jesus summed it up this week in Matthew’s Gospel when he said to his disciples: “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.”

    I could say, it is not those who cry, “Fraud, fraud,” who will enter the kingdom of heaven. These are the people who do not want others to enter the kingdom. They seem resentful of the pilgrims who return from Medjugorje and start changing their lives and walking a path of conversion with the help of Our Lady’s messages.

    But it is not essential to visit Medjugorje to want to live Our Lady’s messages. It just takes a trusting heart to say ‘yes’.

    I don’t have a problem with people who choose not to believe or accept the Medjugorje phenomenon, but why go out of one’s way to stop others wanting to believe, especially when to do so sets one on the road of lies and false accusations, a path that leads away from daily conversion.

    Why does the anti-Medjugorje brigade cry “wolf” and try to scatter the sheep who have made their way back to the fold? What is in the hearts of these critic that causes such a level of anger and resentment against souls who have reconciled with God at Medjugorje? Why are their hearts fearful and distrusting in the ways of the Holy Spirit, the wind that blows where it chooses?

    • Nick H

      Where did you acquire this ability to discern the hearts of all the people who do not believe these “visions” come from Our Lady and say so publicly, Paul?
      I didn’t know that I belonged to the “anti-Medjugorje brigade.” I don’t even remember signing up! Ha-ha!

      I can only speak for myself, of course, but I believed these “visionaries” back in the 1980s. I learned about them from my mom. My parents introduced me to some people who had made the pilgrimage and I believed they had a sincere experience. I still do.
      My mom subscribed to the Medjugorje magazine for years. I still have a couple of them, somewhere. She would tell me about shows she had seen on EWTN about Medjugorje. Bob and Penny Lord’s book on Marian apparitions mentions Medjugorje in the last few pages.

      But, as soon as my mother found out that the “visionaries” had disobeyed their bishop on several occasions, that was it for her. And, when she told me about it, that was it for me, also. And the rest of my family.
      So, my heart is not filled with “anger and resentment.” I believe that many people have had true conversions, and reversions, to the Catholic faith. Which is good.
      But, I also believe that many have been deceived into disobedience, too. Or, they join the cult of personality surrounding these six people. 
      And that doesn’t come from God. Humility, accent, and obedience come from God.
      By the way, do you defend the six repeatedly disobeying their bishops over these past decades, Paul?
      God Bless!

  • Freddieflea

    I’m a sceptic on personal revelation in general. In the Church’s wisdom she allows us to accept or ignore and I trust her judgment and Our Lord’s leading. Now, a question for the pro-Medjugorge crowd: do you spend as much time in sacred scripture as you do pouring over the messages?
    Thank you for the overview, Dr Kainz. AnneG

  • Mike

    My wife and daughter have visited Med. and I will say they came back filled with spiritual vigor. Their pray life and focus has turned much more toward Jesus. That is the personal and my eyewitness account of a fruit they obtained from Med. Now, as far as me, I am by nature a skeptic. I would rather wait to hear what the Vatican Commission rules. But, at the same time I do not discount what I have seen. You write that this could be evil, satan, at work . Maybe, maybe not. As with anything in the spiritual side, one should be cautious and follow what the Church says. But this question comes to my mind- if this is the devil at work, why would he pick a small, obscure village in Bosnia? People that come to these websites obviously focus on religion, but most Catholics still have never heard of Med. If the devil really wanted to plant confusion, wouldn’t you think he’d pick a location more well known. Second, it appears you say that if bad things happen in a place where the BVM has appeared, it means it was false or even worse, evil. Well, look at France, it seems that Catholicism is almost dead there, yet the BVM appeared in multiple approved locations in that country. The same can be said of Ireland, enduring the greatest threat to Catholicism because of the abuse crisis, yet we have the appearance at Knock. Like I said, I pray for good discernment in this and any other potential supernatural events. I love the BVM and pray the Rosary as often as I can, but ultimately, I go to Jesus and to me that is the true test

  • Markcanney

    You assert that if the Church officially recognizes Medjugorje the devil will truimph.  What kind of ecclesiology is that?  Not recognizably Catholic ..

    • Howard Kainz

       That’s not exactly what I said. I said it would be a “feather in the cap” for the devil.  Jesus himself said that in the end times the powers of evil would produce signs and wonders that could deceive, if possible, even the faithful.

      • Mike

        So then, what are the faithful to do? If you say that if the Vatican should rule favorably on this or any other apparition site in the future, we should not accept it, because the devil may have even deceived the Vatican? Where does that then lead us to? Are we to all interpret as we see fit? Believe me I am still discerning and awaiting a decision from the Vatican, but now your comment raises even more question.

        • Howard Kainz

           As you know, a Vatican decision about whether a private revelation is credible or not, is not an ex cathedra pronouncement.  One can agree with it or not.  This shouldn’t present any “crisis of faith.”

          • Mike

            I realize that, but perhaps I am misinterpreting your comment. You appear to say that the devil seeks to plant confusion and can even deceive the Bishops, perhaps even the Supreme Pontif himself. I really still don’t get your comment that if the Vatican should approve this apparition site or again any other one in future that it would be a “feather in the devil’s cap”. I agree that we are not called to in an sense accept a positive ruling because it is personal revelation, but on the other hand do we sow disobedience, confusion, and angst if we “actively” disagree by saying this old be the wrk f the devil? Believe me I am not trying to be argumentative or supportive of Med., but I want to understand and be prepared to better discern. I do believe in “end times” (and I have no clue when that might come about) the devil will try to deceive so I want to be well prepared and well armed. Thank you for your insights.

            • Howard Kainz

               I just realized that the editors had changed the language in the article that I sent, where I used the “feather in the cap” metaphor.  Anyway, my point was that it is obviously a major goal of the devil to deceive the Church hierarchy.  Certainly this has happened in the past.  I don’t believe it will happen with Medjugorje. But fortunately, Jesus has assured us that in the end, “the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church.”

              • Guest

                 Your editor changed the language?  Is that like – “my dog ate my homework”?  Clearly you are out of your depth here.  The idea that the Devil could use an official pronouncement of the CDF to deceive the faithful is repugnant.  Clearly, you’ve lost all objectivity on this matter ..

                • Howard Kainz

                   You’re getting into a personal attack here. Sometimes editors do change wording or re-write sentences.  If you think the CDF has officially approved Medjugorje, you are in error.

                  • Gummy

                     You changed the subject.  Guest’s comment was not a personal attack – it was a natural reaction to the confusing response.  Whichever words you intended in the article, it is odd to say that if Medj is approved , that the hierarchy is then deceived.  So you are really the Pope and magisterium because your opinion is correct?

                    • Howard Kainz

                      ” it is odd to say that if Medj is approved , that the hierarchy is then deceived.” I never said that. 

                    • Gummy

                       You said  “if the Church officially recognizes Medjugorje” “the devil will truimph” – or you said – “it would be a feather in the cap for the devil”.  Either way, this is saying that the hierarchy would have been deceived somehow.

      • Markc

        How could the Church’s decision be a victory for Satan?  As a Catholic I believe the Church is inerrant on faith and morals.  So, if the Church issues a positive verdict that means Our Lady is indeed using Medjugorje in a prophetic manner to crush the seed of the Deceiver.  Sounds like Crisis Magazine is laying the predicate for disavowing a positive decision.  Not only are you misrepresenting the facts about Medjugorje – you are confused on basic points of Catholic doctrine.  Crisis indeed .. 

        • Bobkay

          The Church’s decision on whether apparitions and such are acceptable or not, is not a matter of faith and morals, we can choose not to believe even if the Church views something favorably (in these cases of private revelation) and our non believe in them has no bearing on our salvation

      • Gummy

         So, the Pope and commission after studying all the facts, could be wrong, BUT the two bishops in Mostar, who have a political perspective (their long-standing conflict with the Franciscans) couldn’t be wrong???  Hmmmm…interesting premise!

  • charles allan

    Why would these pilgrims not look to their Bibles and check the vsions to the facts.  Why does
    the vision never refer pilgrims to study the WORD of God since Jesus needed the Sword of the Spirit how much more do we need Him to fend off the works of the Devil.  All through the Bible
    we are told to study the Word of God not signs and wonders.

    • Gummy

      Are you seriously implying that pilgrims do not read the Bible?  The people I know who have been there read the Bible more than the “every Sunday go to Mass pew-sitters” majority of Catholics, because we are seriously seeking Our Lord and His teachings through the urging of Our Lady.  We are the majority of the few folks who attend daily Mass as well as monthly confessions.  You people make false accusations about other people you don’t even know!  Most people are not seeking signs and wonders, they have been brought to us when we didn’t/ don’t expect it – people are called to Medjugorje.  We have been open to God’s work and have been able to reap the good fruits and then spread the Good News that Jesus Christ is Lord.  When God chooses to do so, He distributes graces but we cannot receive them if we are closed.  Discernment is a good thing to pray for, every day, but we must say like Mary “let it be done to me according to Thy word.”

  • http://www.patrickmadrid.com/ Patrick Madrid

    This is an interesting discussion.

    Here is the exact statement, translated into English, as given by Father Réne Laurentin and Réne Lejeune in their book “Messages and Teachings of Mary at Medjugorje” (Milford, OH: The Riehle Foundation, 1988, p. 165):
    Thursday, October 1st, 1981 —[Written question asked of the seers:] “Are all religions good?”[Response:] “All religions are similar before God. God rules over them just like a sovereign over his kingdom. In the world, all religions are not the same because people have not complied with the commandments of God. They reject and disparage them.”[Question:] “Are all churches the same?”[Response:] “In some, one prays to God more. In others, less. That depends on the priests who motivate others to pray. That also depends on the power which they have.”NB: In the appendix of this same book (pp. 344-347) you will find an extended attempt to interpret the first statement (“All religions are similar before God”)  in a way that would avoid it being an expression of the heresy of religious indifferentism (cf. condemned by Pope Gregory XVI in “Mirari Vos,” 1832). I personally do not find this attempt at all convincing, but I suggest folks read it for themselves and make up their own minds.

    • Jim

       Patrick,
      How were these questions answered?
      ie. are they the seers’ interpretations of what Mary (or what appeared to be Mary) said?
      or were they taken by the the seers to Mary (?) to get the answers?
      It may be a fine point – but at the time they were children – & I know my child has a way of answering with wording not exactly as something was told to her.

      Thanks,
      Jim

  • nagyszakall

    I was there in 86 or 87 (don’t remember exactly) and I did see the thing with the sun. It was vibrating and greenish. I don’t think that seeing strange things in the sun means anything in itself. I don’t think the faithful should be encouraged to go to M. before there is a definitive word on it from the Holy See. If they ever approve it (which seems unlikely) as a genuine private revelation,  at least we would have an assurance that there is nothing wrong with it, but as of now, we do not have that assurance.
    I have met many people who went there and claim that it helped them, but that does not prove anything. Any time you spend with prayer could help you.
    Anyway, I don’t think that God want’s most of us to come back to him through believing private revelations, but he definitely wants all of us to come back to him through believing in Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Church.

    • Gummy

       RE: nagyszakall’s comment:  “I don’t think that God want’s most of us to come back to him through
      believing private revelations, but he definitely wants all of us to come
      back to him through believing in Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Church.” 

      The purpose of the many apparitions of Jesus, Mary, etc., has been to bring people TO Jesus Christ and Holy Mother Church.  Atheists and lukewarm Christians have been brought to faith, where they had none before, and would have had no reason to do so.  I was an atheist and would not have been in the Church receiving the benefits of the Sacraments and Holy Communion were it not for Medjugorje!  I was not searching for anything, but the Hound of Heaven and His Mother were searching for me.  It has been 16 years and many people in my life have returned to the Sacraments after having been away from the Church, because of my example and experiences (one day, no belief, the next day fervent belief-one cannot do this on their own).   One lady of no faith at all, went to Medjugorje with me at a later time and became a Catholic.  The people who go there have a much livelier faith and sense of obedience to the Pope, than most people sitting in the pews!  God is doing something through His Messengers from Heaven, and what foolishness to ignore Heaven’s pleas for prayer and conversion!   “For those who believe, nothing is impossible.  For those who do not believe, no explanation is possible”. 

      Why would Jesus and Mary be appearing or speaking to people on earth, if not to make a difference?  To those who say it is not necessary even to believe those that are approved, I tell you, you are blocking God’s work on earth.  Fortunately during Old Testament times, up until today, there have been those who listened and acted, and unfortunately scoffers and naysayers who harm others with their vitriolic words of doubt, have always been around to do their best to turn people away from God’s help.   Be careful that you don’t have to answer for souls who have been lost
      eternally because of your arguments against Truth.  That is a great
      risk – it would be better to say nothing!

      • Nick H

        Gummy,

        May I infer from your comments that you approve of the of the six “seers” (and the priests) disobeying their bishops, several times, over the past three decades?
        God Bless! 

        • Gummy

           I do not approve of disobedience to the Church.  I obey the true Pope and Bishops in union with him, in matters of faith and morals. The Bishops have not spoken authoritatively with evidence of  anything taught in Medjugorje that is against faith and morals.  They have merely given their opinions in a situation where there are “political” agendas and undertones that we cannot grasp unless we are part of it.  This is why it was not condemned.  If it is not condemned, people are free to go.  If they are free to go, why are other people saying it is disobedience?  If the Church pronounces authoritatively that it is condemned, I will obey that authoritative pronouncement, as will the seers. 

  • Cathy

    Several aspects of this “visionary” experience leave me floored.  Unlike past visionaries who delivered the message then humbled themselves by getting out of the way, these just go on and on with empty promises of signs and healings which do not come about.  It seems more of a career path with which, once the visions end, so do the invitations and profits end.  As well, in past visions, persecution in some form was expected as suffering would be a necessary part of what was revealed, and was not greeted with the intent that the persecutor would be “punished” by Our Lord.   I can’t help but to believe that the unnecessary following of these apparitions, as well as others which are questionable, do a great harm to the Church, those who follow as if it takes precedence over the Magesterium and the Gospel, and the poor souls of the proported visionaries themselves.  Satan is not so stupid as to recognize that we can easily become addicted to persons, places or things to the point that we ignore reality.  As with many false prophets of our age, although the promises of being “taken up” or the “end of the world” were unfullfilled, there remains even today, the fruit of division in what these messengers wrought.

  • Jocelyn

    The devil can even appear humble, but he cannot be obedient.

  • Larn

    Reading this stuff about medjgorje, and then reading the Holy Scriptures and the early church writings inclines me to say the following:  Medjugorje apparitions are not real and actually causing scandal. I have heard all the arguments about conversions and vocations and the like, but that does not change my statement.

  • charles allan

    Surely the devil can only do what God allows him – as in the case of Job.
    The fact that there is no Bible study recommended is enough since all the diciples and
    apostles needed scripture ( the sword of the spirit) to discern the devils plans.

  • charles allan

    The true church is inerrant on faith and morals.

  • Desertwatch333

    June 30th: Thank you for your article. I’ve had suspicions about the group at Caritas – they were very nasty when I asked them if Our Lady at Medjugorje ever spoke about the millions of her children slaughtered in the wombs of their mothers; then I noticed that the messages were always the same; too many make an industry out of sacred events…I do believe Our Lady appeared at Medjugorje years ago and i believe because of the youngest boy…I do believe that Our Lady answers the prayers and hopes of those who turn to her now at Medjugorje…but I also believe there is deception going on…

  • Philip

    To Crisis Magazine, can I some how repost.  Philip
    The sentences were  jumbled when being posted (pasted from Notebook) and some don’t make sense.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_2XDBHIYMAH4R75XTXE6XJDTSL4 Common-sense-man

    Many of the comments here tacitly assume that the apparitions are real but what if they are not? If so, we don’t have to debate the devil’s cleverness or the lack thereof, etc. If the “visionaries” are lying, there is no problem whatsoever. Personally I think they do lie.

  • Stephen

    Thanks for this.
    I live in Boston and Ivan is the Seer of the rich and famous
    poorly formed Catholics.  Ivan’s best trick is to have his front
    men imply cancer healing and the unwary spend their
    dying days and money chasing Ivan’s scam. 
    I have discerned at this point that as a layman I am in
    good conscience  to be hostile to this nonsense.

    • Gummy

       Stephen:  Your statement is the nonsense of unbelievers!

      • saulsaul

         Gummy:  Your statement is gibberish.

  • Mr. Tommy

    So now the end justifies the means? Where was I when this change happened?

  • Kellygregory

    Just a hunch, that Howard has never been to Medjugorie, cos his argument is all over the shop and makes no sense.  Theres proof in the pudding go and treat yourself for a week, and tell us about it.

  • Amboyd27

    Don’t worry about it. God can bring good out of evil.

  • Charles

    LIGHT SHINES IN DARKNESS,AND DARKNESS COMPREHENDED NOT.

  • Pingback: “Priest, Prophet, and King” | St. John

  • Michael Seaman

    Sir, your title is misleading. It should not read “What is Happening at Medjugorje,” which indicates that you might actually be writing about events currently taking place there (i.e. news), but ought rather to be entitled “A (One-Sided, Negative) Recap of Events at Medjugorje.”  Quoting notoriously anti-Medjugorje folks such as Donal Foley and Manfred Hauke as your sources hardly lends credibility to your argument. For an academic, I would have expected a bit more from you, like giving sources for quotations, especially when they are crucial to your argument. 

    • Desiderium Kevin

      Mr. Seaman, your point makes no sense.  Foley and Fr. Hauke ARE sources.  Do you want an academic paper?  Have you read Foley’s book with its over 500 endnotes?

      • Michael Seaman

        The point I made is that these sources, as well as Louis Berlanger (who is also used but whom the author fails to cite) are notoriously biased against Medjugorje and there is no effort whatsoever at presenting any other view–it is a poorly written, poorly cited one-sided hit-job. Another point I made (which does indeed make sense despite your objection) is that nothing of what was written is news. It is a rehashing of the same old tiresome critique which is lacking in merit (quotations stating that the alleged apparition claims that all religions are equal, etc. ad nauseam). I also stand by my point that an academic should know better than to “dumb down” his/her writing style by using un-cited sources, present a one-sided case, etc., if he/she is attempting to convince the reader of his/her arguments.

        • Nick H

          Mr. Seaman,

          May I infer from your comments that you approve of the six “seers” and  the priests disobeying their bishops, several times, over the past three decades?
          God Bless!

          • Michael Seaman

            Nick, may I infer from your comments that when Margaret of Cortona twice upbraided her bishop at the request of our Lord, she was way out of line? God bless!

            • Nick H

              No, you may not, Mr. Seaman.
              You are comparing apples to oranges.

              Correcting a bishop, or any fellow Christian, is completely different from disobeying your local bishop, is it not? What Saint Margaret did was no different than when Saint Paul rebuked Saint Peter, when the latter wouldn’t eat with the Gentile Christians.

              So, I ask again (since you didn’t answer my question and tried to deflect,) do you condone or approve of the six “seers” disobeying their bishops, repeatedly, over the past three decades?
              God Bless!

              • Michael Seaman

                First of all, Margaret of Cortona critiquing her own bishop is NOT the same as one Apostle critiquing another. The example you have given is more akin to one bishop critiquing his colleague (or are you stating that the laywoman Margaret is equal to a bishop?)

                Second, that Margaret, based on a vision of Jesus Christ, would upbraid her bishop is in fact very similar to a alleged Medjugorje visionary offering a critique (based on a vision) of her bishop, even though in the case of Medjugorje this was not done so publicly as in the case of Margaret.

                Third, I would have to know to what alleged acts of disobedience you are referring, and the veracity or these acts, before I state whether I condone them. However, I would disagree with your assumption that any and every act of disobedience to one’s bishop would automatically invalidate an alleged apparition.

                If your assumptions were correct (that such disobedience constitutes inauthenticity and that disobedience has been rampant) then the phenomenon of Medjugorje would have been over long ago (but, then again, perhaps you are know more than the Vatican authorities).

                It is striking to me how many of the anti-Medj. crusaders state that “in the end, even if I’m wrong” –and they usually add “but I’m not”–“it’s no problem because I’m not required to believe in private revelation.” One wonders whether the thought might ever cross their mind that they just might have acted as a large stumbling block to a major Marian apparition, turning countless folks away from blessings. Why the need to get on a soap box and proclaim your predictions when the authorities, more competent than all of us, will do so in good time? (Unless it’s to sell more books.)

                • Al_Kilo

                  When, in the history of the Catholic Church, did Mary make 40,000 bland statements? I did an analysis by computer, the syntax repeats itself over and over again. Do it if you don’t believe me.

                  • MCP

                    Al Kilo,
                    LOL!  As I was saying, those messages are so boring!  The Apparition could not be authentic because Our Blessed Mother, perfect as she is, could never have given 40,000 boring statements and counting! 
                    Therefore, the Apparition can not be her.  I have no doubt that there is something appearing there, but it can not be the Blessed Mother.  Something else, Boring, is appearing there.

                    • Michael Seaman

                       Let’s see what’s so funny:

                      “My children; again, in a motherly way, I implore you to stop for a
                      moment and to reflect on yourselves and on the transience of this your
                      earthly life. Then reflect on eternity and the eternal beatitude. What
                      do you want? Which way do you want to set out on? The Father`s love
                      sends me to be a mediatrix for you, to show you with motherly love the
                      way which leads to the purity of soul; a soul unburdened by sin; a soul
                      that will come to know eternity. I am praying that the light of the
                      love of my Son may illuminate you, so that you may triumph over
                      weaknesses and come out of misery. You are my children and I desire for
                      all of you to be on the way of salvation. Therefore, my children,
                      gather around me that I may have you come to know the love of my Son
                      and thus open the door of eternal beatitude. Pray as I do for your
                      shepherds. Again I caution you: do not judge them, because my Son chose
                      them. Thank you.”

                      As I stated before on this thread, I’m happy for you, MCP, and Al_Klio, that you don’t need any alleged advice from Heaven and that you feel you are already in great spiritual shape. But don’t disparage those of us who need it because we are not yet at your level of holiness.

                    • MCP

                      Yeah, this particular one is nice, but most of the other 39,999’s are repetitive, bland and boring.  The apparition always says, “I, me, myself” first before “God or my Son.”  Our Lady does not speak that way.  She says in the Gospel of Luke, after finding the Boy Jesus in the Temple, “Your father and I…”  she even placed Saint Joseph ahead of herself.  But the Medj. messages always says, “I, me, myself” before “God” or “My Son.”  Not believe me?  Take a second look at them.

                      Examples:

                      1.  “If he (the bishop) does not convert or correct himself, MY judgment and that of my Son will catch up with him” (June 19, 1983).  

                      2. “I desire that a greater number be always with ME and with my Son” (March 1, 1984)

                      2, “Because I and my Son have a special plan for this parish” (April 12, 1984).

                      3. “Because I love you, even in the moments in which you are far from me and my Son” (May 24, 1984).

                      4. “Follow ME and my Son Jesus” (October 4, 1984). etc.

                      Why is it always “ME
                      AND MY SON” instead of “MY SON AND ME?”  Is the Blessed Mother at Medjugorje putting herself ahead of her Son?

                      The Apparition told  the seers that the her birthday is Aug. 4, not Sept. 8.  Imagine what chaos that would create if the Catholic Church transfers the millenia-old feast of  Nativity of Our Lady from Sept. 8 to Aug. 4.  What was the Apparition thinking?

                      No, Michael.  If you need authentic apparitions approved by the Catholic Church, go to Mexico City (Guadalupe), go to Lourdes, go to Fatima.  Or just stay at Eucharistic adoration in your local Church where the Lord is truly present in His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and where angels and archangels keep watch with the Blessed Mother at the foot of the Cross.

                    • Michael Seaman

                       I don’t find this argument particularly convincing. I did not search for a message you might like but merely posted the latest one allegedly given on July 2, 2012.

                    • MCP

                      Oh, be honest, Michael.  Most of the messages are repetitive, bland, and boring.  Our Blessed Mother is neither repetitive, bland, or boring.  ,

                    • Michael Seaman

                      Hey, MCP, I’d be very careful what I say while the jury is still out. Are you looking for new revelation in authentic Marian apparitions?

                • Nick H

                  You are wrong, Mr. Seaman.
                  Saint Paul rebuked Pope Saint Peter as one Christian to another, even though Peter was his superior. As all Christians have the duty to do. But, again, rebuking and admonishing are NOT the same as disobedience to your local bishop. Not even close.

                  Your second point is still wrong. Saint Margaret didn’t DISOBEY her bishop.

                  Are you now claiming, as someone who claims to know very much about these events, that you are unaware of the public acts of disobedience committed by the six “seers” and the priests? Do you know how to use google
                  How about this: “Bishop Peric has spoken of other problems, apart from disobedient Franciscans: religious communities established without diocesan permission and ecclesiastical buildings erected without approval.”
                  Source:http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2011/02/11/medjugorje-is-generating-what-the-devil-loves-most-disobedience/

                  Also, I didn’t write “any and every act of disobedience” would invalidate an apparition. A bishop cannot validly order someone to sin, of course.

                  Finally, read my other comments in this thread. I am hardly an anti-Medjugorje “crusader.” But, I, as a Catholic, have no obligation to believe any approved vision, let alone an unapproved claim. I certainly have every right to be suspect when those involved are disobeying their bishops. 

                  “Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.” - Hebrews 13:17

                  Why are you defending disobedience, Mr. Seaman? It is a violation of Holy Scripture.

                  • Michael Seaman

                    See my reply below.

        • Kevin Symonds

          I am sickened, Mr. Seaman, at your argument.  Really and truly. 

          Was this article for an online publication supposed to have book/chapter/verse all nice and tressed up after an academic fashion? 

          Furthermore, Belanger, Foley et al are quite serious in their writings.  Belanger himself takes great pains and precautions for accuracy.

          Since you don’t care for their writings, how about you issue a refutation of them? 

          • Michael Seaman

            I If sound critique makes you sick, you best not post comments or read them. This was a shoddy article, even for a non-academic. Period. I as well as others have already critiqued these and countless other lousy arguments online all over the place. If you would like to read them, they are easily found on the web except in the places where people found that they
            made them uncomfortable (or sick) and removed them. This article says absolutely nothing new. Why New Advent decided to call it “Must read” is beyond me. All of this will be over soon enough when the commission announces their findings.

          • Patrick Coffin

            Kevin, do get with the program.  See, only those who accept this unapproved apparition are unbiased. Obviously.

            By starkest contrast, however, those who take seriously the evidence of its grave problems are biased and merely parrot the tired old notorious critiques of people who should choose silence rather than risk of losing souls through the sin of Failing to Accept Medjugorje [tm].

            • Michael Seaman

              Patrick Coffin, the point you miss: it is not the pro-Medjugorje folks who write articles on Medjugorje. Sure there are a few out there but look at the facts: NewAdvent, Patrick Madrid, Mark Shea, you yourself, Diane, and on and on. These are the movers and shakers in Catholic webistes and blogs and they are all on the anti-Medj. bandwagon. That’s fine. But let’s get something straight. I do not attempt to convince everyone of the blessings to be found there.  It is the anti-Medjugorje people (like you) who are constantly touting their message in articles like these. All people like me do is poke holes in the lousy arguments you make. This article was not an attempt to look at Medjugorje honestly, at all sides. It was a one-sided, biased “article,” citing the usual anti-Medj. folks and their old arguments with absolutely nothing new in it. Therefore, it is right to point the finger at the flawed argumentation and state that the piece is entirely biased. By the way, I recall how you had someone on your program discussing Fatima and you stated how marvelous it must have been to have seen the miracle of the sun there. It’s ironic that you would state such a thing given that the apparition there was unapproved at the time. One wonders whether you will experience the same regret.

              • Gummy

                So well stated, Michael!  This is truth.  We who are commenting positively on Medjugorje are not writing negative articles about people who don’t believe it is a work of Heaven, but defending what we know to be true and which is under great assault. 
                Makes one wonder why these same people are not writing about the horrible heresy within the Church by some of it’s own priests and bishops, and especially “sisters” who are teaching new age or modernist philosophies, creating a “new church” that is contradictory to what the Catholic church has historically taught.  This is something to attack, not a movement which has solidified Catholic teachings, strengthening the faith of those who believe Our Blessed Mother is acting there on our behalf!

                • Michael Seaman

                  Gummy, you bring up two interesting points. First, it’s amusing to me that many folks write lots of negative articles on Medj. and then turn around and state “This place is of the devil–look at all the controversy it stirs!” Part of the reason there is so much “controversy” is that we are living in the internet age.

                  You make another good point. The people I know who have been to Medjugorje (and I know a lot) are trying their best to live their lives devoutly, as Mary has allegedly taught there, to return to the basics, to pray and fast, read the Bible, attend mass and go to confession regularly.  They have kick-started their faith and become much more informed about it and to live it devoutly in their daily lives. But these same folks are repeatedly told by the anti-Medj. crowd that their faith is shallow, that they are seeking miracles, and how they are schismatic, ready to abandon Mother Church when she at last comes around to the proper way of thinking and finally condemns the place. Thanks for your tips folks but we’re doing just fine and are not schismatic.  In this day and age, with the poor catechesis, we were perhaps not as well educated in the faith as many of you critics were. But we feel we have now been educated in the school of Mary. To many of you, the lessons seem banal but not to us. We’re actually a lot like you, though, we’re sorry to admit that we may not have always been so.

                  To me, the critics who miss all the truckloads of good fruit for erroneously perceived evil sound a lot like the proud Pharasees in Jn. 9:26ff:

                  So they said to him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

                  He answered them, “I told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?” 

                  They ridiculed him and said, “You are that man’s disciple; we are disciples of Moses. We know that God spoke to Moses, but we do not know where this one is from.”

                  The man answered and said to them, “This is what is so amazing, that you do not know where he is from, yet he opened my eyes. We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if one is devout and does his will, he listens to him. It is unheard of that anyone ever opened the eyes of a person born blind. If this man were not from God, he would not be able to do anything.”
                  27
                  They answered and said to him, “You were born totally in sin, and are you trying to teach us?” Then they threw him out.

  • John

    Your  article is factually incorrect  in many respects. Read responses to Medjugorje criticisms at  http://www.medjugorjelive.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9039
    I defie you to disprove the substance of the article.

    • Gummy

       The link provided in John’s comment is an excellent reference for those who stubbornly adhere to old, overly used  disparaging quotes against Medjugorje.  I urge all non-believers to read what has been written in link above.  It answers very well all the false criticizms and charges of  “disobedience” with factual decrees and documents.  Stop dealing in/distributing falsehoods and seek truth!

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_NHS4UG2ZOMGCTP4PQF5FJIY2J4 Allan

    There has never been a church approved apparition that entailed disobedience to the local bishop. The idea is a spiritual absurdity going against everything Christ taught. The fact that there has been such rancor attached to the place is a sure sign of evil intervention. 

  • Jim

    O.k. … So which is it?  A scheme of the devil’s – or “no evidence of the supernatural”.  You put forth the idea that the devil might try to subvert the Church with something like a pretend-Madonna — then you conclude with no evidence of the supernatural..

    To follow this logic then, the devil must be working through the Franciscans & they decided to get six teenagers (& pre-teen) to orchestrate this story – & pull it off convincingly enough to fool millions of people for decades.

    Actually, thinking about it – that would be an incredible miracle itself!
    Have you ever tried to get a group of teenagers to do ANYTHING ?? (much less anything  involving Church)

    Is this what you’re saying? — that it was the Franciscans who put the kids up to this.  They concocted (& are concocting) the whole story & got the kids to tell the story, and then pull off fake visions  — and then they make up & feed these messages to the kids for the world through these fake visions.  And all this because the devil wants to sew disobedience.

    • Howard Kainz

       If it was at least in part the work of the devil, the category would not be “supernatural,” but “praeternatural.”  The devil can perform miracles, produce visions, and has astute knowledge and much practice in persuading humans.

      • Jim

         So, what are you saying is happening? 
        Are the kids are receiving visions from the devil?
        Or are they not receiving visions at all?
        Did they receive some visions from the devil & continue to fake it today – with the help of the Franciscans – who want to use the kids in their turf battle with the diocesan bishop?

        Please state exactly what you think the case is.

        • Howard Kainz

           I agree with the psychologist, Fr. Groeschel, who thinks something unusual happened there in the beginning, but is puzzled by the aftermath.  It seems to have “changed into something else,” possibly a variety of “deeply devout hysteria.”

          • Jim

             I believe you owe it to your readers to explain exactly what you think this “something unusual” was.
            Was it something unusual good –  apparitions of Mary?
            Was it something unusual bad – a scheme by the kids or the Franciscans for whatever reasons?
            or Was it something unusual demonic – visions performed by the devil?

            & if it “changed into something else” – which did it change from & to? (from unusual good to unusual bad?  unusual demonic to unusual bad? from bad to demonic?)

            I don’t believe any one of us want to think something caused by the devil is real, any more than we want to attribute something from God to the devil – or something made up by man to God…

            So, for the sake of clarity, what are you saying has happened & is happening?
            Thanks,
            Jim

            • Howard Kainz

               Fr. Groeschel thought there might have been something supernatural in the beginning.  I think it was at least praeternatural.  Hopefully the Holy Ghost has given some of the bishops the gift of “discernment of spirits,” which would be necessary to bring clarity on this phenomenon.

              • Jim

                 Howard,
                I appreciate you replying with answers to my questions –
                because what I am trying get fully is your understanding of what happened & is happening — and I don’t want to put words in your mouth.

                I also appreciate direct answers.

                So – you think it was praternatural — does that mean you think it was from the devil?  And since you use the word was – then exactly when did he stop appearing to them? — And what happened then?
                I think most of us are aware of the basic chronology of events there – but please use them to show your reasoning.

                Are the “visions” being faked now, or are they still from the devil? 
                Are the messages faked (faked meaning made up by the “visionary” – or another person)  as well?  Were they always faked, or were some from the devil, then the rest faked?

                Did the Franciscans believe the dupe by the devil & believe the kids were really seeing Mary – then at some point become accomplices in perpetuating fraudulent “messages” – when they stopped?

                Please lay out for us exactly what you think happened & is happening.

                Thanks,
                Jim

                • Michael Seaman

                  I, for one, would like to read the author’s reply to Jim’s questions.

                  • Michael Seaman

                    What? No reply to Jim’s important question after two weeks? We may only conclude that the author of the article has not fully thought through what he has written. I hope I am wrong.

                • Howard Kainz

                   The visions may be real or faked.  Why were the visionaries insubordinate to their bishops?  The Franciscans may have been sincere or crafty.  Why have they also been disobedient?

                  • Jim

                    Howard,
                    I hope you & your family had a great 4th of July!
                    I’ll answer your questions – but ONLY IF you’ll return the favor & answer mine – with specificity.  Don’t dance around them with could be’s – just what You think it is & why..
                    My answers:
                    I don’t see where they’ve ever not been subordinant.  In fact many of the messages were directions to pray and fast for the intentions of the bishop  (and lately there is a real emphasis on praying for the priests).  Looking at the examples in your article:  #1 – Vicka writes in her notebook that the bishop is the “more guilty party..” O.k .. that implies that she &/or the Franciscans were guilty too – & besides — it was something she wrote in a notebook.. Can she not write her own thoughts down? (& maybe she was right)
                    As for the Gospa “defending the Franciscans..”  You have to provide exactly what she said – because I’ve seen nothing where she encourages defiance – in fact just the opposite.
                    Now – I’ve seen behind the scenes of religious operations — and can tell you – people are people (putting it nicely).  There was obviously a turf battle, no denying that & maybe the bishop’s order to share the parish conflicted with the order’s charism & was not logistically functional… I don’t know – but what I do know is that I have never seen any message that encouraged disobedience in the least.
                    #2 – “In a letter Ivan said the Gospa demanded the bishop’s immediate conversion… etc..”  I don’t see a problem with this..  The bishop is completely in his right to ignore this.  The only weight it carries is his own personal conviction of the validity of the apparitions.  Other approved apparitions had messages conveyed to others.
                    #3 – “February 3, 1985 the Gospa told three visionaries that Fr. Barbaric, whose removal  was requested by the bishop, should stay.” — That was a request – correct?  Not an order.  If it was a direct order from a superior, then under obedience, he would’ve been packing his bags (or someone else packing them for him) — but a request (to leave his home, his parish, etc.. ) is different.  It seems like he had the freedom to make a choice.  & if he did & he asked for Mary’s guidance or opinion, he may have gotten it.

                    Now to your second question about why the Franciscans have been disobedient.
                    I’m not going to pretend to know anything about the turf battle there.  My professional experience though is that it is never as cut & dry as it seems on the outside & religious people usually are horrible administrators (and are not immune to basic human imperfections)  Like the above –  “request” vs order – I’m quite sure the bishop could kick them all out & replace them, but he hasn’t.  To me – it’s like dealing with my employees.  There’s a certain level of tolerance for mistakes/incompetence that happens – then there’s the level that you fire them.
                    In the Church (thankfully) true disobedience can be dealt with. 

                    So then my answer is that since the bishop has not played his trump card, there’s more to the issue than we know.  And – that is a case of man’s imperfections (again being nice).

                    Also – you were right to downplay the “miracles” there — because they are not real important — Like someone’s rosary with losing its cheap coating & appearing gold..
                    The miracle is that they are using the rosary enough for it to start showing some wear..
                    When I went there in the 80s I went with my engineering mind – skeptical (to say the least) – about hyperactive miracle accounts.
                    Some did happen, but they were not the high point at all.  All the emphasis was on mass, confession, & conversion.  I personally saw the “miracle of the sun” – at mid-afternoon.  It looked just like a communion host in front of the sun.  And, being the engineer, I decided to watch it for over an hour – staring directly at the sun, because I know that staring at the sun for over an hour would result in some serious retina damage (which of course there wasn’t).  I really don’t speak about that much because it seemed so unimportant compared to the miracle of the eucharist we receive every day.  (it was part of a personal message to me that as a Christian, the miraculous is part of our lives – especially the miracle of the eucharist which is greater than anything in the world).

                    That’s all I got for right now.. but I look forward to your answers.
                    Thanks again,
                    Jim

  • charles allan

    False religions have fooled billions of people for thousands of years – often accompanied by signs and wonders such as milk running down statues. Men women and children have been
    involved.
    What about sister Magdalena of the cross who made a pact with satan when she was young and fooled the whole of Spain – she confessed later to using tricks and visions. 
    Worth a google for any Catholic

  • charles allan

    The November 24, 2011 prosecution of the false Italian mystic, Mother Ebe Giorgini, foundress of the religious movement “La Pia Unione di Gesù Misericordioso”, once again brings to light the importance of careful discernment when it comes to mystics, visionaries and the like, and calls to mind the incredible life story of the false mystic, Sr. Magdalena of the Cross (1487-1560).

  • Philip

    With regards to the comment by me, Philip, something is wrong with either my OLD computer or OLD  and barely working mouse contraption.  Some of the sentences are repeated, and in the wrong place, tending to slightly alter the meaning or thought.   Hope everyone can figure it out.  This is my 2nd attempt and things are still going wrong.   I’m sure Crisis readers will figure it out. 
    Philip

  • MCP

    Dave,
    I first found the Apparition statement’s that all religions are equal from a spreadsheet (newspaper) that Weible published, saying that according to Ivanka: “The Madonna said that religions are separated in the earth, but the people of all religions are accepted by my Son.”
    Also, from page 119, “The Visions of the Children,” Connell:(Question to Vicka: )”Is the Blessed Mother calling all people on earth to be Catholic?”
    (Vicka:) “No! The Blessed Mother says all religions are dear to her and her Son. She says it is we on earth who have made division.”
    Connel came to my own parish to promote her book and I asked her to confirm the above statement and she did. 
    Later, it was watered down:
    Page 85-86, “The Final Harvest,” Weible:
    A statement from the Apparition:”Tell this priest, tell everyone, that it is you who are divided on earth. The Muslims and the Orthodox, for the same reason as the Catholics, are EQUAL before my Son and me. You are all my children. Certainly, all religions are not equal, but all men are equal before God… Those who are not Catholic are no less creatures made in the image of God, and destined to rejoin someday the House of the Father.”
    SAME DOG, DIFFERENT COLLAR. 
    ***
    What the authentic Catholic faith teaches: Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life.  No one goes to the Father except through Him.
    “Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12).
    The Church has summarized this teaching in the dogma, “Outside of the Church there is no salvation.” The following is a dogmatic, ex-cathedra statement from Pope Eugene IV, Feb 4, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches, that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving, their other works of Christian piety, and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his alms giving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Denz. 714)

  • charles allan

    MCP  But would this not put about 500 million protestants outwith salvation even if
    they confess that Jesus is the only way.

    • MCP

      Charles,
      I would like to explain it in my own words, but I’m not a native born English speaker; and anyway these words which I copied (link at end of post) better explain the dogma than I ever could.

      “(The Church expressly teaches that ) it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God” (Singulari Quadam), that “outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control” (Singulari Quidem), that “they who labor in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion and who, zealously keeping the natural law and its precepts engraved in the hearts of all by God, and being ready to obey God, live an honest and upright life, can, by the operating power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life” (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore). “Inculpable ignorance is not a means of salvation. But if by no fault of the individual ignorance cannot be overcome (if, that is, it is inculpable and invincible), it does not prevent the grace that comes from Christ, a grace that has a relationship with the Church, saving that person.”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra_Ecclesiam_nulla_salus

      This teaching of the Church is nowhere near the Apparition’s claim that “all religions are dear to her and her Son.”  What about the religion of Satanism?  Of Goddess Earth worship?  Of Wicca witchcraft?  Are such evil religions also dear to her and her son? 
       

  • charles allan

    The devil is trying to get acceptance of  all religions in order to form them into the one
    world church which will be headed by the antichrist.  It will be like the roman empire which allowed any god but not an exclusive one.     So bible believing Christians and Jews will be targeted.   The “emperor” will declare himself god and enforce worship.  So acceptance of all
    “truths” is satanic .  No one in the catholic church can declare at the same time  that Jesus is the only way and also that other religions lead to God.

  • charles allan

    “We saw that God said, ‘Come to me’, and in the Gospels we are told to pray to our Father in Jesus’ name, never to a saint or to Mary.  The disciples did not pray to Stephen who died very early in the Acts of the Apostles, or to James who was killed early on.” Bob Bush (Ex-Jesuit; ex-Roman Catholic priest; quote from the book Far from Rome, Near to God)

  • charles allan

    “I am the LORD: that is My name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise [i.e., the praise due to the LORD] to graven [i.e., carved; engraved] IMAGES.” (Isaiah 42:8)

  • charles allan

    Don’t let anyone condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of angels, saying they have had visions about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud,….Colossians.Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ — St. Jerome

  • Pray2ourlady

    Thank you for this enlightening article. Aficionados of Medjugorje, friends of mine, go ballistic when I tell them I don’t believe Our Lady is appearing there. We have First Saturday devotions at our parish, and I remind them that Our Lady of Fatima’s requests for this have largely been ignored in the USA. Our bishops should be promoting this every First Saturday, and daily recitation of the rosary, too. I pray for an end to this division, with a definitive answer from the Vatican. Having read Donal Foley’s book and another by Michael Davies, I am convinced it has been bogus from the start. But those who follow Medjugorje don’t want any suggestion of “proof” that it may be a hoax. 

  • charles allan

    But surely if the visions lead millions of people to think that there is no reason to leave say
    buddism or hinduism or islam and follow Jesus then this is serious since these three religions have been found at the shrine or image.

  • Pingback: Medjugorje: An Alternate Perspective

  • charles allan

    One wonders why say peter or paul or any of the apostles do not suddenly appear to children
    to give them warnings from Jesus.   Why are there not statues of the apostles all over world with millions of worshippers and miracles.    If there were visions of these men they would assuredly tell them to read their letters in the new testament and not to add to what is written.

  • Redhead14681

    I have been to the Caritas site in Sterrett several times and it appears to be nothing but an incredible business marketing scheme. I’m glad that someone had the guts to publish an article and expose these people who are abusing the Catholic faith to satisfy their own greed.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Mattson/617684479 Chris Mattson

    http://www.zenit.org/article-28677?l=english The Vatican has a commission studying the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje now, and the Catholic Church will issue a definitive judgment in due time. In the meantime, the faithful are free to believe in the authenticity of the apparitions. Millions do. I recommend the recent book written by the postulator for Pope John Paul II’s cause for canonization, Monsignor Slawomir Oder of Poland titled, “Why He Is A Saint.” Monsignor Oder includes in his book an entire chapter on Medjugorje and what Blessed John Paul II thought about it. Here’s an excerpt:”His devoted love for Mary only grew and flourished when the connection between the third secret of Fatima and the assassination attempt of May 1981 became clear. In connection with the dramatic event, extrajudicial sources confirm, John Paul II also saw a link with the apparitions of the Queen of Peace in Medjugorje, in the former Yugoslavia, which began at the end of June of the same year. The Pope spoke of it in very favorable terms and said, ‘To say that nothing is happening at Medjugorje means denying the living and praying testimony of thousands of people who have been there.'” …”Although [John Paul II] never took an official position on these apparitions, in private Pope Wojtyła did not conceal his own belief. To Monsignor Murilo Sebastião Ramos Krieger, archbishop of Florianopolis in Brazil, who was going for the fourth time on a pilgrimage, he confirmed, ‘Medjugorje is the spiritual center of the world.’ In 1987, during a short conversation, Karol Wojtyła confided to the seer Mirjana Dragičević: ‘If I weren’t Pope, I would already been in Medjugorje confessing.’ This intention finds confirmation in the testimony of Cardinal Frantisek Tomasek, archbishop emeritus of Prague, who heard him say that, if he weren’t Pope, he would have liked to go to Medjugorje to help with the pilgrimages.” John Paul’s postulator goes on to cite further testimony from the bishop of San Angelo, Texas, and Monsignor Slawomir says John Paul II sent Slovakian Archbishop Pavel Hnilica, “one of the prelates who was closest to the pontiff,” incognito to Medjugorje — and quotes the letters John Paul II sent to Polish friends Marek and Zofia Skwarnicki, referring positively to the apparitions. “I too go there every day in prayer,” the Pope wrote. “I am united with all who are praying there and who receive the call to prayer from there.”
    The book written by the postulator for the cause of the canonization of Pope John Paul II can be purchased at Amazon.com. It is excellent, and includes more about Blessed John Paul II’s thoughts about Medjugorje, if you’re interested. http://www.amazon.com/Why-He-Saint-Faith-Canonization/dp/0847836312

    • MCP

      Chris,
      Do you think Pope John Paul II would have moved the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Mother from September 8th to August 4th, since according to the “Apparition,” her real birthday is August 4th?

    • MCP

      Chris.
      I have no doubt whatsoever that Pope John Paul II was a holy man. 

       But his idea of Medjugorje was based on a book written by Fr. Laurentine (who, AT THAT TIME, seemed not to have met any apparition he did not like).  And therefore Pope JPII asked Archbishop Hnilica to go to Medjugorje for a look-see.  The Archbishop believed, but his invesiigations were not thorough.  In the postulator’s book you described, Hnilica did not address the doctrinal controversies that the Bishops of the area (the real authorities) were  struggling with
      .
      Pope JPII was a good and holy man, but he had been proven wrong in discerning the holiness of some persons and events, especially since he himself didn’t investigate them.  Case in point was the founder of of the Legionaries of Christ, Fr. Maciel. 

      Another questionable case was the Neo-Catechumenates whom Pope JPII approved, but whose weird celebration of the Liturgy is now under investigation by Pope Benedict’s CDF. 

       I think that Pope John Paul II “approved” of these questionable things in principle, on the surface of their holy appearances, but given a chance, he might have  wanted to look into them more deeply and found them wanting.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Mattson/617684479 Chris Mattson

        I’m just pointing out that good Catholics have different opinions on this subject.  As I said previously, the Church will issue a definative judgment in due time.  In the meantime, we are free to believe the apparitions may be authentic.

      • Michael Seaman

        MCP, let me make sure I have this right. JPII, undoubtedly a saint and an incredibly spiritual man, who prayed constantly before the Blessed Eucharist; an incredibly intelligent man, who wrote countless erudite texts and who in fact may be declared a Doctor of the Church, came to the conclusion that Medjugorje is authentic. But this was, according to your conclusions, due to his inexperience, lack of prudence and foresight and all-around stupidity. Further, he would have immediately done a 180 if he had only had the benefit of your keen insight. OK, I think I’ve got the general thrust of your argument now. Thanks for your analysis.

        • MCP

          Michael,
          Yes, Pope JPII is a saint, but he was not infallible in his belief in Medjugorie.  His belief in it is not the official teaching of the Church. 

  • MCP

    http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2010/03/the-deviations-of-medjugorje.htmlAnd another thing: in these “messages” the Gospa usually presents herself ahead of God and His Son: “Before my eyes and before those of God it is all equal.” Similarly, she will say:
    If Bishop Žanić does not accept and propagate the messages of Medjugorje, that is: “If he does not convert or correct himself, my judgment and that of my Son will catch up with him” (June 19, 1983).  Or:”I desire that a greater number be always with me and with my Son” (March 1, 1984)”Because I and my Son have a special plan for this parish” (April 12, 1984).”Because I love you, even in the moments in which you are far from me and my Son” (May 24, 1984).”Follow me and my Son Jesus” (October 4, 1984). etc.Why is it always “I, me, and myself” first, before “God” or “My Son?” 
    This is contrary to the Gospels, where the Blessed Mother even placed St. Joseph ahead of her.
    When you take account of the humility of the Handmaid of the Lord who puts her Spouse in the first place: “Your father and I have searched for you, in anguish” (Lk. 2:48), then these “messages” in which the Gospa put herself ahead of God and His Son are not in accord with the humble Virgin of the Bible. This is also a sign that such “messages” are not only presumed, but also the product of a childish imagination, supported by the intentions of their directors and promoters!

    • mamazoni

      When Satan tries to decieve he makes the simplest mistakes. What you have pointed out is very interesting.

  • Joanc57

    Medjugorje is bunko.

  • Joe

    Wait a minute here… we do not judge Medjugorje.  That is up to the Church.  When She rules one way or the other (which they have not yet done and will not until after the apparitions are played out), we will know.   If we post one way or another prior to that, we’re setting ourselves up to look foolish, or even worse, to create division.

    There is too much talk about what this one said or that one said – about contradiction, lies, misinterpretations, in-fighting, etc.  I know of many authentic conversions from those who’ve listened to stories of Medjugorje.  I also know of several controversies.  But I’ve been trying to follow closely the Church’s investigation and have come to the conclusion that I may be dead and gone by the time the worthiness is pronounced.

    Like anything, if it is of God, it will endure.  If it is of Satan, it will not.  But I’m not going to attribute to Satan something of God based on hearsay when the Church, in it’s obligation to guide the faithful, has not told people that it is of Satan.

    So who is it that is trying to speak authoritatively on this without the authority?

  • Texasskinny

    Father Malachi Martin began an interesting observation in noting that the Irish often say the devil can hide every part of himself buit his feet. The hooves still show no matter what form he takes. Then Fr. Martin went on to point out that in all the approved aparitions of Mary, her feet are visible and have been described. Not so at Medjugorje where her feet are hidden by a cloud. We must wait for the Pope to decide. Until then, extreme caution.

  • Nick H

    Since none of the defenders, except for Mr. Seaman (seemingly,) seem to want to defend disobeying your local bishop, how about all of the false prophecies? Anyone want to explain these away? Are they also “mis-translations”?

    If the six “seers” had lived during the Old Covenant, they would have been liable to death, as false prophets, per Deuteronomy 18:20-22. So, since false prophecies are not from God, what may we reasonably conclude about all of these alleged “visions” that did not come to pass?

    Also, even if the Church approves of these alleged “visions,” I, or any other Catholic, are not obliged to believe in them. Just as I am free not to believe in the apparitions of Fatima or Lourdes (I do believe in those two, though.) 

    I can’t tell anyone it is wrong to believe in Fatima, because it is approved by the Church (and I have never told anyone that it is wrong to believe in Medjugorje.) 
    But, I can surely express why I don’t believe in Fatima (if I did not believe, that is) in the same way that I can express why I doubt what is happening at Medjugorje is coming from the Blessed Virgin Mary.

    Contrary to what some on this thread have stated, expressing doubt is not evil, nor is it keeping people from attaining graces.

    • Gummy

       To repeat what I said above about disobeying your local bishop:
      I do not approve of disobedience to the Church.  I obey the true Pope
      and Bishops in union with him, in matters of faith and morals. The
      Bishops have not spoken authoritatively with evidence of  anything
      taught in Medjugorje that is against faith and morals.  They have merely
      given their opinions in a situation where there are “political” agendas
      and undertones that we cannot grasp unless we are part of it.  This is
      why it was not condemned.  If it is not condemned, people are free to
      go.  If they are free to go, why are other people saying it is
      disobedience?  If the Church pronounces authoritatively that it is
      condemned, I will obey that authoritative pronouncement, as will the
      seers. 

      If heaven speaks to us, why would one NOT listen?   Jesus is Truth!  If the Church authoritatively pronounces that an apparition site is truly from Heaven, why would one NOT hear what Heaven has to say???  This makes no sense at all.   You would then, after the Church authoritatively states that Mary is speaking to prophets, express your own opinion about why you don’t believe an approved apparition?  This boggles the mind…..I guess then we can call you Pope Nick.  This all fits in with the pick and choose crowd, aka, cafeteria catholics.

      • Nick H

        What you have written is simply not true, Gummy, as regards the Church’s teaching on private revelations. This is what the Church actually teaches:

        “Throughout the ages, there have been so-called ‘private’ revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept ‘revelations’ that claim to surpass or correct the revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such ‘revelations’.” – Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 67 (Emphasis mine)

        No Catholic is required to believe in any Church approved private revelation or vision. Believing in Fatima, or Medjugorje, is not necessary for salvation. Private revelations are NOT a substitute for the Catholic Faith.
        Any Catholic is completely free to disbelieve that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared at Fatima to Lucia, Jacinta, and Francisco, and remain in communion with the Church. And, if that Catholic expresses why he disbelieves, he is not doing the work of the devil, as you have falsely asserted in this thread.

        “Although an assent of Catholic faith may not be given to
        revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made
        according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules
        such revelations are probable and worthy of pious credence. […] it is possible to refuse to accept such
        revelations and to turn from them, as long as one does so with proper modesty,
        for good reasons, and without the intention of setting himself up as a superior.”
        – Pope Benedict XIV, De Servorum Dei Beatificatione

        You may learn more about what the Catholic Church teaches, here:

        http://www.catholic.com/tracts/private-revelation
        http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/apparitions.htm

        • Gummy

           I know what the Church teaches.  I never claimed that private revelations belong to the deposit of faith.  I did not say that they were necessary for salvation.  What I asked was why would anyone want to ignore help from Heaven since it is for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit (except that He wants us all with Him).  We can use all the help we can get since this world is in such disarray.   The devil is alive and active, trying to lure souls to hell, and if Heaven speaks, I listen, using the gift of discernment.  

          I also said that if we are trying to actively interfere with God’s work through Our Lady, which one day soon may be approved by the Church, by discouraging and negating it, we need to then understand a basic fact that, if we are not working with Him we are working against Him.  There is black and white, right and wrong, but people are pushing shades of gray in today’s world.  Heaven is helping us sort through all this.  I for one am so grateful for this help.  I would not believe in God, would be on my way to hell, if not for Our Lady at Medjugorje, so you can see why I defend my Mother’s presence there.  She saved my eternal life.

            If the Church’s judgement from the Chair of Peter and Magisterium says that Medjugorje is really the Mother of God appearing and giving us help, to decide to ignore what She says, is a scary thought.  We always have the freedom to choose to act in God’s Will or not to do so, therefore the caveat that we are not required to believe in approved apparitions, makes sense.  We do have a choice.  God does not force Himself on us.  We can believe in Him or not, obey or not, sin or not, doubt or trust.  But, what I propose is, if you don’t believe, it is better to keep it to yourself, because you could be wrong and have persuaded someone who might have benefited from Medjugorje, like me, from listening to the messages and be lost forever!  This is a serious matter.  

          • Nick H

            You obviously don’t know what the Catholic Church teaches, Gummy, or, you wouldn’t use a phrase like “Our Lady of Medjugorje” to refer to an UNAPPROVED private revelation.

            Also, you claim that you agree that belief in approved apparitions is not necessary for salvation, but, your other statements belie this assertion. You stated that if people don’t believe in an approved vision, like Fatima, they are working against God. This IS NOT Catholic teaching. 
            You even went further and included unapproved alleged visions, like Medjugorje. Based on what you have written in this thread, I find it hard to believe that you will abide by the Church’s declaration, if She rules that nothing supernatural was/is happening with the six alleged “seers.”

            You need to read the two links that I provided, completely.
            God Bless!

      • Nick H

        Oh, and as far as disobeying the bishop goes, I think you have mistaken what I meant. I was not talking about the fact that both Bishops Zanic and Perić have concluded that nothing supernatural has taken place at Medjugorje, which was completely within their rights, as the local bishop.
        I meant the blatant refusals by the six “seers” to obey the commands of their bishop, repeatedly, over the past three decades. And, the repeated disobedience of the Fransican priests, too. Some of which were mentioned by Prof. Kainz, in his article. Do you condemn these repeated acts of disobedience, Gummy?

        What about the false prophecies? You didn’t even touch this subject. Why? If someone claims to be a phophet, they must be 100% accurate when they make predictions about the future. If they are wrong about one thing, they are not to be believed, according to Sacred Scripture. How do you defend the several predictions that did not come true? How can a false prediction come from God?

        I am hardly a “cafeteria” Catholic, nor, do I claim to be the pope. I don’t understand the acrimony in your statements. I’m just asking for answers to my questions. There is a good reason why EWTN stopped mentioning Medjugorje, and everything connected to it, twenty years ago. Has Mother Angelica also gone to the dark side?
        God Bless!

        • Gummy

          They obey God and His Church, then man.  If anything they said contradicted faith and morals then they would have stopped because they would not wish to be involved in lies, from the father of lies.  If there is no reason for condemnation, and the Bishop is only making his opinion known because of personal reasons, that is not a command from the Church, it is a request from a man whether or not he is called Bishop.  
           Even the Pope cannot tell us what to do unless it is from the “chair of Peter” and an official pronouncement, which is when we can be sure that his words are not contradicting faith and morals.   He cannot tell us what to eat for breakfast or which parish to attend.  I would respect any request the current Pope might make of me because he is a good man and I trust his judgement. 

          The words you used, ‘blatant refusal’ makes a supposition.  You do not have direct correspondence nor access to the seers and do not know all the circumstances there, but you are making suppositions based on rumors or other false claims.

          I don’t believe that there were several predictions made that never came true – we have yet to see the results of all that was said.  This usually occurs when apparitions are completed and therefore is when the Church usually makes their pronouncement on apparitions.
           
          I was not accusing you of being either a cafeteria catholic nor a pope, I just am showing how your words reflect an attitude of picking and choosing, in that you would make your own judgements on the conclusion, even if the Church approves Medjugorje as valid, which also sets one up a being his own pope, much as protestants do in interpreting Scripture.  There was no intended acrimony in my words. 

          I have not implied that anyone has gone to the ‘dark side’.  I know EWTN did not stop mentioning it 20 years ago, because I was an atheist until 1995 when Our Lady brought me to God and His Church, and I watched EWTN nonstop.  Mother Angelica did believe in it, she mentioned it occasionally.  If they didn’t mention it later on it was because they did not wish to promote it until officially approved, which is appropriate. 
          God bless you as well!

          • Nick H


            They obey God and His Church, then man.”

            Obedience to your local bishop is obeying God, Gummy. It came straight from Christ. 
            Your continued repetition that the bishop can only condemn on the basis of faith and morals has nothing to do with obeying the licit commands of one’s local bishop. Why do you keep repeating this?

            “You do not have direct correspondence nor access to the seers […].”

            So what? Neither do you. And, I am not “making suppositions based on rumors.” I making reasonable conclusions based on the public record.

            “I don’t believe that there were several predictions made that never came true […].”

            This is not a matter of belief, Gummy. Again, it is a matter of public record. Did you read Prof. Kainz’s article? Several predictions were made that never materialized. How can false prophecies come from God?

            “[…] in that you would make your own judgements [sic] on the conclusion, even if the Church approves Medjugorje as valid, which also sets one up a being his own pope […].”

            Except, for one problem: The Catholic Church says that I can disbelieve, if I choose to do so. So, how is that “picking and choosing”?

            “Mother Angelica did believe in it, she mentioned it occasionally.”

            Yes, she did, until it came out that the six alleged “seers” had repeatedly disobeyed their bishop. Then EWTN stopped airing anything favorable to Medjugorje. Just like they did when the accusations against Fr. Ken Roberts surfaced. Fr. Ken made many pilgrimages to Medjugorje, too. 
            EWTN also removed all programs by Fr. Corapi, when he disobeyed his bishop. And, no reputable, orthodox Catholic media group has endorsed the activities of Fr. Gruner, because he obstinately refused to obey his bishop.

            Disobedience to the proper authority is a sure sign that someone is struggling with rejecting God, and that they need our prayers. I pray for the six alleged “seers” to remain obedient to Christ’s Church.
            God Bless!

    • Michael Seaman

      Nick, I did not defend disobedience. I asked you for specific instances of the alleged seers’ disobedience and you steered me to a brief 100-word anti-Medjugorje opinion piece, which had no details of their alleged disobedience. For someone who has mentioned “disobedience” countless times in this discussion, I was hoping for a bit more from you on this important question.

      I am not as well versed on all the happenings at Medjugorje as some are but I do know that the “visionaries” have in fact been obedient in a variety of matters regarding Medjugorje. For instance, when the bishop forbade them to travel to certain destinations, they obeyed. When the Franciscans were told they could no longer write commentaries on the alleged messages, they silently obeyed. When the bishop forbad certain communities in Medj. to celebrate Holy Mass, hear confessions, or adore the Blessed Sacrament in the houses of their own communities, they obeyed silently (you decide whether this caused unneeded suffering). Certainly there are conflicts between the Franciscans and the diocese but this goes back centuries. (By the way, I do not defend the actions of Fr. Vlasic so please don’t infer that.)
      Lastly, Nick, all of the above notwithstanding, it would be nice if you explained to us whether you think the alleged seers need to obey the demands of the local ordinary on things regarding Medjugorje if the Vatican has taken away all his authority on the matter? In other words, if Cardinal Razinger’s CDF relegated his authority on Medjugorje to merely “his personal opinion,” as was stated in the letter by the secretary of that body, then are the seers being disobedient if they neglect one of his directives on such matters? (I am not saying that they have but merely asking you what your opinion on this is.) At the very least, the matter is clouded and you have what would appear to be a dilemma of conflicting loyalties.

      • Nick H

        I quoted the part of the article that mentioned the disobedience of  setting up religious communities and ecclesiastical buildings without permission, Mr. Seaman. How did you miss that?
        I also used the word “seemingly” when stating your defense of disobeying the local bishop. You did write, “However, I would disagree with your assumption that any and every act of disobedience to one’s bishop would automatically invalidate an alleged apparition.” (emphasis mine)
        This was a straw man, by the way, as I never claimed such a thing. (I clarified that commands to commit sin are not valid.) But, since your statement was ambiguous, as you never listed which acts of disobedience were allowable, and which ones were not, I had to infer. Just a little.
        How about the Gospa’s defense of the disobedient Franciscans, as recorded on December 19, 1981, in Vicka’s notebook, which Prof. Kainz wrote about in his article? Do you defend that?

        Or, how about the subject of the comment to which you replied? Do you defend all of the false prophecies mad by the six?

        I, too, am no expert on the claims concerning Medjugorje. Or, any approved apparition, for that matter. I’ve read a book by Bob and Penny Lord, as previously mentioned, and several articles written by orthodox Catholic sources.
        As I’ve repeatedly stated, I will abide by whatever the Church rules in this situation. Without a definitive ruling from the Holy See, we can only look at the evidence as it appears in the public record, and compare it to past approved private revelations.
        The appeal to the masses of converts and reverts, (argumentum ad populum), is a logical fallacy, and not evidence of truthfulness. No one can measure the level of their faith, even if it is in the millions. If there were numerous, provable healing miracles, like at Lourdes, this would much better bolster the authenticity of these claims.
        Finally, even if the CDF takes away the authority to judge the validity of the claims away from the local bishop, the obligation of the faithful to obey the local bishop is still in effect. As far as I know, I’m not a canon lawyer.
        God Bless!

        p.s. I don’t see how your reply to MCP answered my questions, by the way.

        • Nick H

          Oops! Forgot to close a ! Sorry.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Mattson/617684479 Chris Mattson

     http://campus.udayton.edu/mary/caritas.html In 1999 Bishop Foley  issued a statement regarding the visit of Medjugorje “visionary” Maria Lunetti to Caritas of Birmingham.   Statement
    By Most Reverend David E. FoleyCatholic Bishop of Birmingham in Alabama      We have received a number of inquiries about the visit of Maria Lunetti (maiden name, Pavlovic), who was one of the young people associated with the alleged visions at Medjugorje in Yugoslavia.  Her visit is being sponsored by “Caritas of Birmingham,” which is a group of individuals gathered for the purpose of promoting the messages of these reported visions.  “Caritas” has absolutely no connection with the Diocese of Birmingham.         Catholics are devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.  Catholics do not worship Mary.  They honor her and love her, because God chose her to be His mother.  “Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.” (Luke 1:28)           The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there can be no new public revelation before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ at the end of the world.         Throughout history there have been so-called “Private” revelations, some of which have been recognized as “private” experiences.  They are a help to people to live more fully their authentic call from Christ.  Christian faith cannot accept “revelation” that claims to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment.       As Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Birmingham, I have not, nor would I ever, discourage or have any objection to the people praying in the field.  They are devout Catholics.         As is proper, I have not allowed Mass to be celebrated or other devotions involving the Blessed Sacrament.  This is out of reverence for the Eucharist, the source and summit of the Catholic Faith.         Since the visions of Medjugorje are still under investigation relative to their authenticity by the Holy See, I should not give any sign of approval nor associate with events connected with these visions.   December 10, 1999

  • Sue3232ewtn

    I have been to Medjugorie in Sept. of 1987 and 1988.  First time I went I felt a stirring, a desire to be near Our Blessed Mother, just as I am in front of the Lord Jesus when I am at adoration in my church.  I did see many miracles when I was there and I experienced such a deep peace.  I felt like all the people around me were family.  Just like I have with my own family at home.  I never experienced that before.  I have always been very shy and had trouble talking to people.  Here in Medj. I could speak to villagers, guides, fellow pilgrims, anyone.  That was a great gift to me and I continue to be less shy and more carring about how each person I meet is feeling today.  I want to help bring peace into familys that are hurting by prayer or sometimes a call to listen to see if I can help with words or anything.   I have come to know Jesus alot more through meditating on the life of Jesus in the rosary.  The rosary is a great gift.  I have come to see Jesus through the eyes and heart of His mother in the mysteries of His life.  I’m learning to pray with more LOVE for my Jesus.  Mary His mother has done much to bring me closer to Him.  I could write all day about the great gifts I have been given and am so thankful for.  I just wanted to write a little note;  a little bit of what has changed in my life since my visit in 1987 and 1988 in Medjugorie.  Thanks for this open forum.   Peace! 

    • Gummy

       Thank you for witnessing your experiences!  

  • Charles

    49 And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man
    casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not
    with us. 50 And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against
    you, is for you

     

    Reflect on the above scripture! We shouldn’t worry, for the
    simple reason that the fact that more people are returning to the church, the
    only hope for the devil is to split the church through our own weakness and whatever
    action the church takes we must follow. As long as we remain united, and commit
    ourselves to prayers every day in the same time, the devil would be beaten. I believe
    that Jesus is only waiting for the church to take the right decision, and then,
    what she bind on earth it would be bound in heaven.

  • Peter

    well named then as Mega-Forgery

    • Michael Seaman

      This deeply insightful analysis has left me speechless.

  • Gummy

    Man can never be sure or objective, because his thinking, his opinion,
    never leaves him. If one doesn’t allow oneself to be convinced, if one
    clings to one’s naturally limited judgement, events will continue to
    occur without us. This is what happened at Medjugorje. Whether one is
    convinced or skeptical, for or against, the years pass by at Medjugorje;
    the signs remain, the fruits remain. And Our Lady’s invitation to peace
    is still valid

    I do everything I can for people to hear this message, so that they may
    begin to renew their spiritual lives, their family lives.

    The position of the Church or the position of individuals is not the
    point. The point is that this is a mystery in which signs are given.
    Jesus had forseen our weakness. He told us: “Either make the tree good,
    and its fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and its fruit
    corrupt: for the tree is known by its fruit.”

    The devil never ceases to seek out collaborators to harm Medjugorje.
    When these persons describe a witness, such as myself, for example, they
    try to show me in the worst possible light so as to provoke a scandal
    so that the public will say. “Medjugorje is bad.” But I am not
    Medjugorje! Thank God, I never for one instance thought I was
    Medjugorje!  Slander, lies provocations, I can easily overcome all that.
    Medjugorje cannot suffer on my account, because God is in it Himself who
    has wanted it and who protects it from human egoism, pride and
    disobedience…

    • Fr Jozo Zovko OFM, from the book Encounters with Fr Jozo, by Sabina Covic 

  • Jjknip

    I do not beleive most of this.  I have been to Medjugorje and witnessed a lot first hand.
    Darlene Knipping

  • Famijoly

    I visited Medjugorje as part of a pilgrimage to Europe in 1997.  I experienced a peacefulness there.  I was amazed at the faithful devotions of the locals, as well as the pilgrims, most especially to daily Mass.  I’ll admit to getting a bit “swept up” to the point where I allowed a numbing of my discernment radar.  What I mean by that is that I never have endorsed what the seers claimed at Medjurgorje, but for the first few years after my visit, I stopped asking pertinent questions and was in the mode of waiting for the Church to decide.

    Little by little, the numbness wore off, and a few years ago, I started asking pertinent questions again.  Such as why those books of the messages, translated into English, have the messages arranged randomly, not chronologically.  Why the bland sameness to so many of the thousands upon thousands of messages?  And the phenomenon that really stood out to me as curious, the strident, even angry defense of the Medjugorje events by those who expressed belief in them.  My attitude is, If it really is the Blessed Mother appearing and speaking to a few people, even with a purported message for the world, our faith can by that but we don’t need it for salvation; if it is not the Blessed Virgin Mary, as claimed, then it is false and not worth defending.  Either way, I thought, there is no reason to get so hyped up about a purported apparition. 

    Then I found Foley’s books and other links that calmly discusses the background and the facts.   From them, like in this article, I discovered many discrepancies, like the prophecies that failed to materialize, the threats of punishment toward the local bishop, the statement at least implying that all religions are equal, and on and on.  The thing that convinced me to steer clear of Medjugorje materials, and to warn others to steer clear, is the disobedience to legitimate ecclesiastical authority.  I wrote a lengthy email to a man who leads pilgrimages to Medjugorje, asking him how he can confidently state in his advertising that the Blessed Mother will appear on the dates his advertising mentions?  His reply was short, saying there are many things developing there now.  The same man operates a website that disseminates mostly good Catholic information and teaching, but any time there is a headline that links to something on Medjugorje is always from one of the “pro-Medjugorje” sites that openly show contempt for and villify Bishop Peric, a Successor to the Apostles of Jesus Christ, and the legitimate head of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno. 

    Each passing day brings us one day closer to the definitive decision on Medjurgorje by the Vatican.  The decision itself will be important.   But the reaction of the Catholic faithful will be even more revelatory.  The exact wording of the decision (with hopefully some accompanying catechesis) is something those charged with writing it are wise to labor meticulously over.  For from there will come a reaction that will reveal the spiritual health of the Catholic Church.  How will it be taken?  Those who are attentive to the teachings of the Church know that a positive decision adds nothing to the deposit 0f faith and binds no one, but a negative decision means Catholics must, in an assent of conscience, reject the claims of apparitions and messages. 

    I fear that those Catholics who have invested so much energy in promoting and defending the Medjugorje phenomena have set themselves for a big letdown. 

    I personally believe that the seers did experience something unusual, perhaps preternatural, in the first few days of their claims.  Foley in his books consider what likely happened next, in order to keep the story going. 

    When I am asked about Medjurgorje, my response is that I believe Medjugorje is a place of intense spiritual warfare.  As St. Paul indicates in Romans 5:20, “Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more.”  There are great fruits, conversions, vocations realized, marriages restored, etc., in spite of the disobedience of the seers and their promoters, despite what appears to me and a number of others to be a big hoax about Mother Mary appearing and speaking almost every day for 31 years and counting.

    How did it come to this?  What a good chunk of North American and western European Catholics found at Medjurgorje is what they should find at their own parishes but didn’t because of the heterodoxy and lukewarmness of so many bishops, priests, and religious brothers and sisters.  At Medjugorje, these faithful Catholics found an emphasis on the sacraments of Eucharist and Reconciliation, on frequent (even daily) devotions such as Eucharistic Adoration and the Rosary and the Stations of the Cross, on fasting and penitence, on developing a habit of spiritual reading and reflection.  And wherever these are found, there will be reversions, conversions, restored marriages, an increase in vocations to the priesthood and religious life, in short, a vibrant and lived faith.   

    When these newly vibrant Catholics returned home, however, they found their parishes in the same state with devotions marginalized or non-existent, Confessions limited, priests delivering milk-toast homilies on tolerance and inclusivity, habitless sisters angry over being “denied” ordination, heterodox resources used in the religious education programs, etc.  What they experienced at Medjugorje, in other words, was closer to authentic Catholic faith that what they experienced in their own parishes.  So, in a sense, a “parallel church” emerged among those Medjurgorje visitors, to the point that any attack on Medjugorje is perceived as  an attack on authentic worship, hence the villification of Bishops Zanic and Peric by otherwise faithful Catholics.  The vast majority of “pro-Medjugorje” folks believe the Vatican took the decision-making authority away from the Bishop of Mostar-Duvno because he has a bias against the claimed apparitions.  In actuality, the successive Bishops of the diocese that includes St. James Parish in Medjugorje have rendered their own  assessment and FREELY referred to the bishops conference and then FREELY referred the matter to the Vatican. 

    What the fans of Medjugorje seem to forget is that no claim of apparition has ever needed nor ever will need a rooting section.  If discernment moves legitimate Church officials to declare the events “worthy of belief” faithful Catholics are free to believe or not because they have all they need for salvation.  And if after discernment Church officials are moved to condemn the claims, we must steer clear of them.  

    Thank you for a great and animated discussion.  We need more discussions like this in the Church.  God bless you and keep you.

     

  • charles allan

    The anointing you received from God abides in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you this. Instead, because God’s anointing teaches you about everything and is true and not a lie, abide in him, as he taught you to do.     John   2 : 27

  • Desertwatch333

    Michael Seaman – you say that Pope John Paul declared Medjugorje is authentic…that is not true.  He said positive things about it because of his deep love of Our Lady but he never declared it to be authentic.  And remember, Pope John Paul, a holy man, a saintly man, was long and deeply fooled by the Founder of the Legionaires Maciel…Maciel was deeply rooted in evil and perpetrated evil acts all his life but Pope John Paul did not see that…even saints can be fooled.  I’m not saying that Medjugorje is not authentic but be careful not to spread falsehoods about Pope John Paul.

    • Michael Seaman

       Desertwatch, reread my post. I did not state that JPII declared Medj. as authentic. I was replying to the (arrogant?) statement made by MCP:

      MCP writes:

      “I think that Pope John Paul II ‘approved’ of these questionable things
      in principle, on the surface of their holy appearances, but given a
      chance, he might have  wanted to look into them more deeply and found
      them wanting.”

      MCP apparently agrees that JPII personally believed in the authenticity of the apparitions but this was only because he was duped and did not have the intellectual firepower to study it properly (an amusing analysis).

      • MCP

        Wait, Michael.

          My message was in replyto a post (and granting for the sake of the argument) that  that Pope JPII believed in the apparitions.  So what?  That was Pope JPII’s personal belief, not a magisterial pronouncement.

        The Pope’s reported belief stemmed from a book by Fr. Rene Laurentin, who, at that time never met any apparition he didn’t believe. Fr. Laurentin believed them all!   I myself read that book and couldn’t believe Fr. Laurentin’s naivete.  For the sake of argument in this forum, I let the Pope’s reported claim stand.  It does not mean I believe it or that I agree with him.

        It does not matter whether the Pope personally believed or not.  It was not a Magisterial pronouncement.  Pope JPII, holy as he was, had been mistaken a few times in his pontificate. Although a saint, he was mistaken on the case of Fr. Maciel of the Legionaries of Christ.   He was severely criticized for kissing the Koran.  And for allowing a bare-breasted woman act as lector in one of his mission liturgies.   He favored the Neo-Catechumenicals and their weird Mass, which Pope Benedict is is now trying to clean up.  So if Pope JPII believed in Medjugorje, but that was his business, not ours.  

        But now, guess what – Fr. Laurentin is walking back his statements on Medjugor.  Not only that, Fr. Laurentin denies he ever believed in it. and said he had always been objective about the matter.  Duh.
         
        http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2008/10/petrus-intervie.html

        • Michael Seaman

          MCP, your comment that you “can not believe Fr. Laurentin’s naivete” speaks volumes about you, as do your other posts. I was replying to you total dismissal of the opinion of someone who is likely a doctor of the church and saint, stating that you felt he was, in effect, duped, and that he would have easily come to the “proper” conclusion had he only had the benefit of your insight.  This is the statement of someone who is either incredibly arrogant or not too bright.

  • Desertwatch333

    Michael Seaman, that message you quote from Medjugorje “My children; again, in a motherly way, I implore you to stop for a moment…” etc I had read early and found it strange that all of a sudden, after all the questioning the sameness of the messages, etc…a longer and more complex message comes through. I’m not saying it isn’t authentic just that this is the first time it’s happened as far as I know…usually the message are all brief and pretty much the same…

    • Michael Seaman

       I guess you better tell the Blessed Mother to return to messages you find boring and bland so you can advance your argument some more.

      • MCP

        The “Blessed Mother?” 
        No, not OUR authentic Blessed Mother.  Our Blessed Mother is a woman of few words, and they’re in the Gospel.  The magnificent canticle called  Magnificat. “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”  The thoughts she kept and pondered in her heart.  “Do whatever He tells you.”  The few words she told Juan Diego (“Am I not your mother?”), Bernadette, the children of Fatima, Sister Agnes in Akita, etc.  Not a seven-line, 30-year, bland message marathon – on demand by seers.   
        There’s a book-length poem by John W. Lynch called, “The Woman Wrapped in Silence.”  That is Our Blessed Mother.    

        • Michael Seaman

          Are you stating that the Blessed Mother, if she felt a need to convey messages to her earthly children, could not do so because this would spoil the way you see her, based on what what she reportedly said in in Jesus’ day? It sounds to me like you have set limitations on what the Blessed Mother can and can not do. I’d be careful if I were you in telling the Mother of God what she can and can not do, MCP. I’m not sure about this but I suspect that if we review the criteria the CDF uses for discerning whether an apparition is authentic, we may not find, “The messages must be pleasing to the ears of MCP and fit in what he feels the Blessed Mother should say?”

  • charles allan

    Did anyone in the new testament have the ability to be omnipresent.   If Mary is present at all
    Mary shrines in the world would this mean she has the ability to be omnipresent.

    Do you think that Mary has now been given this power – do any of the saints in heaven have
    omnipresence now or before they died eg such as peter and paul.

    As far as I know the angels do not have this ability – eg the archangel Michael was stopped
    by the demonic “prince of Persia”     for two weeks from answering Daniel.
    Also the devil and his angels do not have omnipresence – – the devil commands his demons
    on his behalf.     

    I know philip was moved through the air by God after baptising the ethiopian but this is not
    omnipresence.

  • KC

    The only thing I need to know about the alleged apparitions at Medjugorje is that the alleged visionaries and those priests closely connected to them were disobedient to a string of lawfully appointed Bishops.  That fact alone tells me that these alleged apparitions are false.  The one thing two of the most famous (and approved) Marian apparitions have in common (Fatima, Lourdes) is that the Blessed Mother insisted upon obedience to the Bishops. Now one may be cynical and say ‘Well of course the Bishops are going to approve a message where the Blessed Mother instructs seers to obey their Bishops.”  But then one wouldn’t be a very good Catholic then, would one?  Because to be a good Catholic one has to accept lawful church authority.  If one doesn’t accept that, then one has just created their own personal protestant religion (emphasis on protest.)

    To the poster who said that the devil must be stupid (if he is allowing conversions and reversions to occur) I say, a) The devil is in no position to allow or disallow anything, and b) he knows exactly what he is doing because he knows that a house built on a poor foundation will fall.  If any of these conversions or reversions occurred because of these alleged apparitions, and then the apparitions are found not to be of supernatural origin (or worse – found to be demonic) then what will happen to the faith of all of those people who converted?  Their faith might stick around, or it might die, or the faithful might just choose to ignore the bishops’ lawful ruling – so the devil is betting 2 to 1 that he can at least pull someone further away from the church or out of it completely.

    • Gummy

       30 years of solid conversions is hardly a house built on sand!

      • MCP

        You mean, like, the holiest person in Medj is a Muslim woman?  That’s according to the Apparition.
        Well, there goes all the conversions to Catholicism! 

  • Dan O’Connor
    • Gummy

       Thank you for this beautiful testimony Dan!  I too was in Albany,  NY when, as an atheist, Our Lady managed, somehow, miraculously, to get me to Medjugorje.  Thank God and I praise Him constantly for this beautiful place of conversion, without which I would still be a godless, worldly sinner.  At least now I have the benefit of the Sacraments, and an ongoing conversion to lead me closer to the Heavenly Father!  I pray for those who will not open their eyes, minds and hearts to this great gift from Heaven.  We all know who wins in the end, and I pray that this stubborn adherence to attacking Heaven’s work will not continue once all doubt and confusion is laid to rest, as it will be!

      • Dan O’Connor

        That’s so wonderful to hear, Gummy!! Thanks be to God.  Are you still in Albany?

        Another pertinent news item: http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/9611/Austrian-cardinal-speaks-on-controversies.aspx

        • Gummy

           No, Dan, I am in North Carolina now.   I miss all the beautiful Catholic people there who were so devoted to Medjugorje.  My grand daughter who lives  in Pittsfield MA, and came into the Church last Easter (the only one so far) is going to start at Siena College in the fall.  I am praying for her!

          • Catholic

            Hello Gummy,

            I couldn’t not to notice your devotion to Medjugorje! I am really glad that you do understand what is happening there! Actually I am from Medjugorje , living in DC area now, and it is nice to see that there are Americans who know something about Medjugorje and share my faith in it.

            Thank you,
            Ivana

      • Nick H

        I responded to your 2 replies, from a couple of days ago, Gummy.
        If you’re interested.
        God Bless!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Mattson/617684479 Chris Mattson

    Read the positive things Cardinal Schoborn has to say about Medjugorje in this current article in Our Sunday Visitor, including the “good fruits.”  http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/9611/Austrian-cardinal-speaks-on-controversies.aspx

    • Desertwatch333

      July 6th…unfortunately, Cardinal Schoborn has also had good things to say about liberal positions such as homosexual agendas and female ordination…then pulls back when criticized…at least this is what I have been told…

      • Michael Seaman

        Thanks so much for reporting and spreading what you have been told about the bishop (i.e. gossip, detraction, slander). You might look up what the Catholic Church teaches about this.

  • charles allan

    MCP  –  What about the seven churches in asia which were there for 300 years and were independent of Rome.  (although the church of thyatira was is deemed by most scholars
    to have contd as the roman catholic church)

  • MCP

    Fr. Rene Laurentin, a 25-year supporter of the Apparitions at Medj appears to have had a change of heart.

    http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/2008/10/petrus-intervie.html

    Fr. Rene Laurentin takes a step backward: “I have never expressed a positive judgment on the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions.” And a rebuke to those who want a proclamation of Mary as co-redemptrix.

    The Italian web site Petrus, “the on-line daily on the pontificate of Benedict XVI”, is presenting an interview with the renowned Mariologist Msgr. Rene Laurentin, who seems to be taking a surprisingly cautious stand on the Medjugorje apparitions he has promoted for over 25 years.
    by Gianluca Barile

    Q: You are a supporter of the apparitions of Medjugorje, whereas many other prominent mariologists are skeptics. In your opinion, when will the Church declare herself on these manifestations? And, in the Vatican, why do they not appear to be convinced of the authenticity of the Medjugorje apparitions…

    A: “At Medjugorje, the bishop is against the apparitions and his predecessor chose him precisely for that reason. Naturally, as everyone knows, the Holy See always takes the position of the local bishop as its own in such cases. Anyway, Cardinal Ratzinger had refuted the negative judgment of Bishop Zanic (in 1986), the first bishop in a position to confront the question of the apparitions. I am only an expert and I have no magisterium. And I never allow myself to give an opinion on the apparitions which I study. I only examine the facts, the reasons in favor and those against. I discern them, I explain them as clearly as possible, but I don’t give any judgment. If I had done that, I would have made greater difficulties for myself, which are already great enough, from the moment I involve myself so assiduously in this controversial phenomenon.”

    Q: Father Laurentin, what you are saying seems to be a step backward: you have written books upholding the thesis of the authenticity of the apparitions of Medjugorje…

    A: “I say it again: I have never expressed judgments on the authenticity, at least of the apparitions; my studies are merely a small contribution to the Church and to the faithful…”

  • charles allan

    The interview continues:

    Fr. Vlasic: “What then is the role of Jesus Christ if the Moslem religion is
    a good religion?”
    Mirjana: “We did not discuss that. She merely explained and deplored the lack
    of religious unity, especially in the villages. She said that everyone’s
    religion should be respected, and of course one’s own.”

    Comment: We did not discuss that! What kind of nonsense is this? If Our Lady
    would make a statement concerning other religions, she would make sure to
    clarify it so that it would not lead people into error. So here we are waiting
    patiently for some sort of an answer that might ease our hearts regarding the
    heretical statement we have just heard, and what do we hear? 

    • Michael Seaman

      So sorry to hear that Our Lady did not get involved in polemics to your liking. No doubt you feel she should be more aggressive, laying such matters to rest for you. Of course, such behavior would be in perfect keeping with her nature as we have it in the Gospels. Oh wait, no that’s just the opposite of what she’s like! Gee, I guess it’s you who has it all backwards. Perhaps you need to reread the Gospels, Charles.

      • Nick H

        Is there a reason that you replied to so many comments in this thread, but, did not answer any of my pointed questions to you, Mr. Seaman?
        I hope this was just an oversight on your part, as I would hate to have been snubbed! (Ha-ha!)

        Also, I think you are misinterpreting what MCP has written, and, have put up a few straw men in an attempt to make your point. MCP was not “telling the Mother of God what she can and can not do,” You should stick with what people have actually written, and not what you have inferred from what they wrote.
        God Bless!

        p.s. Can you also answer my more resent questions about the false predictions made by the alleged “vision” and the “seers”? And, do you think it is okay for Gummy to repeatedly refer to the Blessed Virgin Mary as “Our Lady of Medjugorje,” before any ruling has been made by the Holy See? 

  • charles allan

    What then shall we say about the signs in the sky, the cures,
    the gold rosaries? The truth is the Franciscans and seers who started this whole
    thing were just as surprised as the people who saw these signs. Why then did
    they happen? Because of the two walls! Between Heaven and Earth there is a wall
    that is only a one way wall of separation. Heaven can pass through the wall but
    we cannot. In fact, we are not to even want to pass through. The great mystics
    say that the first requirement for a true apparition is for the seer to not want
    it.

    But there is another wall of separation. It is between us and
    the demons. That second wall can only be passed through one way also, but the
    other way, from us to them. All we have to do is seek and want to go through the
    wall and Satan is there to give us all we want in the form of visions, lying
    miracles, signs and wonders. The people going to Medjugorje wanted signs and
    wonders. They get what they want but not from God. This is why one of the top
    experts in the world on private revelation, Dr. Gagliardi Giorgio from Italy,
    states, “it can be very dangerous to go to Medjugorje”, [dangerous to your soul,
    your faith, your sanity, your future, and your money].

     

    Rick Salbato 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Chris-Mattson/617684479 Chris Mattson
    • Nick H

      Do you agree with Gummy that those of us who criticize the alleged “seers,” based on reasonable conclusions drawn from the public record, are “blocking God’s work” and “may be working for the devil,” Chris Mattson? 
      Do you agree with Gummy’s repeated references, in this thread, to the Blessed Virgin Mary as “Our Lady of Medjugorje”? Before any ruling has been made by the Holy See? 
      Also, do you have any explanation for the false predictions, as alleged by the “seers” to have come from the Blessed Virgin Mary, which are listed in Prof. Kainz’s article? Isn’t the fact that these prophecies didn’t come to pass, a major problem for the veracity of those who made the claims?God Bless!

  • charles allan

    If the prophet speaks in the LORD’s name but his prediction does not happen or
    come true, you will know that the LORD did not give that message. That prophet
    has spoken without my authority and need not be feared.  Deuteronomy 18 ,22

  • Bill Russell

     

     

    The conflict between the bishop of Mostar and the Franciscans of Medjugorgje has a long and tortured history. In 1942, Bishop
    Alojzije Misic of Mostar expressed horror at the massacres of Serbs with the
    complicity of Herzegovinian Franciscans headquartered at Siroki Brijeg near Medjugorje,
    a Ustashe center. Bishop Misic described hundreds of women and children thrown
    alive into ravines at Surmanci. Eugene Cardinal Tisserant grimaced: the
    Franciscans behaved “abominably.” The present day Franciscans have continued to distance themselves from the Catholic bishop of Mostar and would seem to be using every means they can, including claims of apparitions, to perpetuate their sad legacy. 

  • Archangels7

    I have been blessed to travel to Medjugorje, Fatima, and Lourdes.  All 3 places are special for different reasons.  I believe I have received signal graces based on my experiences and Medjugorje to me is a place of Grace.  A training ground for prayer and to come into a more fullness of the Catholic Faith.  There have been so many conversions and so much reported fruit from Medjugorje that the church cannot rule out the possibilities of Miraculous intervention.  This still does not guarantee that the visionaries are perfect and free from sin.  They are human.  If Holy Mother church rules against Medjugorje then I will obey!  I pray everyone else will as well.  We need to follow the church.  The Divine Mercy Devotion was banned for 13 years before Pope John Paul II pushed for a re-examination of the evidence while he was a Cardinal and then Holy Mother church reversed itself and approved of the Divine Mercy Devotion.  Saint Faustina the visionary in that series of apparitions is now a canonized saint and most likely will become a Doctor of the church some day.  Time will tell when it comes to Medjugorje but I caution anyone to judge it false based on plenty of mis-information – yes mis-information!  This article was not very well researched and I now have serious doubts about Crisis magazine.  
     

  • Pingback: Medjugorje decision this November? | Spiritual Life |

  • Ecj412

    I would warn people not to accidently blasphemy the Holy Spirit. Jesus said many things and did many miraculous deeds and the Pharisees credited these things to the devil. It is better to wait for the Church’s pronouncement than to risk attributing a work of God to the devil. 

  • charles allan

    Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)

  • charles allan

    And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 2nd Corinthians2 (14).  This does not seem difficult for Satan – a powerful angel.

    Little Magdalena’s first visionBut for now, little Magdalena is just 5 years old, and she is already known in town for her remarkable devotion, which is out of the ordinary for a girl of her age. Not long after her fifth birthday, she is praying in Church when she hears music of remarkable sweetness. Then a beautiful young man, with thick, black hair appears to her, wearing a mantle so brilliant that she has to close her eyes. Hearing the story, some believe it to be Jesus. News of this event spreads throughout Córdoba, and many want to see little Magdalena. 
    Miraculous curesSoon, a person whom she believes to be Jesus appears to her and asks her to somewhat moderate her asceticism, so as not to compromise her fragile childhood health. He informs her that a great destiny awaits her, and that she will need her strength. She flies to the church to thank Jesus and on the way meets a man with a severe limp who asks her to lend him her hand to climb the Church steps. He has hardly climbed a few steps when he stands erect and with great surprise and excitement he dashes through the whole town crying out that he is healed!Magdalena herself goes into Church then falls into a deep ecstasy. Soon, someone comes in looking for her and realises that she is seeing a vision. Looking closely at her eyes, she sees in the reflection in her eyes the heavens and what seems to be the Holy Trinity surrounded by the Communion of Saints. Soon afterwards, like Jesus after the cure of the blind man, Magdalena is subjected to all sorts of interrogations to discover any subterfuge, none of which can apparently be found. Not long afterwards, a mute person also allegedly receives his speech through her intercession. 
    If you read the remarkable story this satanic deception goes on for 40 years in Spain.

    ‘Again, the Devil took Him up into a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, All these things I will give You ifYou will fall down and worship me’.    Satan is capable of giving anyone powerful visions

  • HermitTalker

    Lies and didsobedience are always Satan’s tool-box choices.   Sad so many are duped, but good happens so Jesus still is in control.

  • huntbuc20

    Here is one of the messages from Our Blessed Mary to Marija .
      September 25, 1986
    Dear Children, By your own peace I am calling you to help others to see and begin to seek peace.  You, dear children, are at peace and not able to comprehend non-peace.  Therefore i am calling you, so that by your prayer and your life you help to destroy everything that is evil in people and uncover the deception that satan makes use of.  You pray that the truth pevails in all the hearts.  Thank you for having respnded to my call.”
    I feel that this should answer several questions.  I have read many of the comments between yall.  Some are saying this is all being produced by the devil.  And if you notice, I did not capitalize his name.  Its not worthy of the honor.  Anyways, yes. The devil is clever and can make lies look like truth.  If you read the above message I think it will clear up any ideas that this is his doing.   For those that will say ” he could have just given this message just to again give the appearance that Medjugorje is on the up and up.”, I will go into further conversation.  The devil is not going to ask people to “pray” that evil is destroyed  in  people and that his lies are uncovered.  I think people are looking into this too much perhaps.  Look inot the messages Our Lady gives.  Can you not see the undeniable truth in it.  The “Words From Heaven” book is available!!! Buy it.  Read it.  You see the motherly love that pours from Mary down to us.  IT IS BEAUTIFUIL.  And some say that Mary cant possibly give apparitions while these people are on vacation.  Can she not????? Just as a mother enjoys watching her children play and loves watching them be happy together with thier brothers and sisters, can she not too feel the same way when she looks at us???   Just remember.  Mary is truely our mother.  She, just as any mother to her children, will not lead us astray. 

    • john konnor

      ..there is not much truth in the message..indeed as thomas aquinas says to separate truth from falsehood we need to avoid contradiction….so when the apparition says by our own peace we are being called this is a contradiction of the gospel…without God”s grace we cannot have peace since we inherit the sin of adam..indeed we can guided buy our natural reason arrive at some semblance of order however we need God’s grace to convert people to the faith..not our own peace but God’s grace…this is a contradiction when the apparition says by our own peace the apparition is calling us..on our own merits???..how can i merit anything without justification…by ourselves we are nothing without God….John 15:5…I am the vine; you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same
      beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing…you see how this message contradicts the gospel???..it says we are justified by our own merits and not by the merits as they are applied to the cross of Christ….galatians 6:14….But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ; by whom the world is crucified to me, and I to the world.
      – Douay Rheims Bible
      …indeed how is one chosen by their own peace????this implies that we have some power that God does not have…and so it implies God is not omnipotent for we possess something on our own which God cannot grant….

  • charles allan

    ‘The devil is not going to ask people to “pray” that evil is destroyed  in  people and that his lies are uncovered.’ 
    Many non Christian religions would promote similar prayers as above.   

    ‘A little leaven spoils the whole batch’  Galations  5 : 9

    99% truth and 1% lies so that you take the bait.

    • huntbuc20

      Charles Allan, I completely agree that the devil gives people a little truth to make it seem like complete truth. People say that about us as Catholics.  Being a convert into the Catholic faith, I have heard it all.  But let me breifly tell you of my experiance there.  On the first night of Caritas, Blessed Mother was appearing in the bedroom.  When She does this, members of the Caritas community randomly pick a handful of pilgrims to come into the room.  I was chosen.  And there are no words to describe the sense of peace, real peace, that I had the moment the apparition began.  Ill be honest.  I am merely a teenage girl. And im ignorant of many things and I am definitely not bright.  But I have seen the battle between good and evil in my life and have seen it being waged against me and my family.  And when I say see, I mean that very litterally.  No one could ever tell me that what was in that room with me that night was anything but Heavenly.  Yes, the devil is tricky.  Yes, he is a fatastic liar.  But as for saying satan is behind this bright beakon of hope, if we as a people have reverted to giving a powerless fake like satan the power to make us so hopeless and doubtful of any truth left in our world, that we can no longer trust God and we take everything as an attack from satan,  then I have to say that we are indeed a nation with no hope.  But I refuse.  This is Mary.  The one who will defeat satan.  This is Her time.  We can expect nothing less than for the coward, satan, to try to cover this up with our human doubt and childish stubborness. 

  • Christie

    I have been to Medjugorje, many times and I stay with one of the visionaries…  I have and will always be a religious person, dedicating my life to my Lord Jesus… And I can tell you this, Medjugorje is the real deal.  It is our Lady, not the devil, like you try to tell people.  Like our Lord Jesus said, the devil can not cast out the devil…  There is no way the devil could be doing this for 31 years.  All the holiness, conversions and goodness that comes from Medjugorje, is not the devils work.  He could not and is not capable of doing good deeds like this and speak loving messages and words like these that our Lady speaks there.  So you need to get your facts straight, before you write article like this.  Your facts about the apparitions and the visionaries are absolutely FALSE…  And until you actually go there and stay with them, you should not even have a false opinion and write your lies.  Maybe your the devil trying to make people think that Medjugorje isnt real and holy.  God Bless you and may you have a conversion.

  • Nick H

    Perhaps those who have posted new comments, here, defending the so-called “apparitions” will attempt to answer my questions about disobeying the local bishop repeatedly and the false prophecies?

  • Carla

    I wonder when the reporting was done here on the Medjugorje Apparitions, why the reporters herein did not include the statements from Our Lady to obey the clergy, respect the priesthood and to pray for the priests and our Holy Father. Such lop-sided commentary is biased and far from objective. In fact, the sole reason for the slant is obviously not to be investigative in nature but slanderous. I have followed the Medjugorje messages for more than 30 years. I have worked as a professional editor and a writer for a diocesan newspaper and had things published nationally as well. I would advise that, if this site is to do a credible job, it had better show both sides of the coin and stop playing Devil’s Advocate.

  • Astrid

    I seem to remember That Blessed John Paul II said, concerning the faithful and Medjuggorje, “Let the people go there and be converted”.  If anyone knows what his exact words were, please post them.  They were something to that likeness.  It would seem to me that he was commenting on the fruit of prayers caused by the apparitions.  And, as to date, no difinitive staement for an order to ‘cease and desist’ the pilgrimages has been given by the local bishop.  Only a comment on supernaturalness without a call to STOP the rosaries, prayers, healings and conversions.  But I do understand that soon the current proper investigation, due this year, will make an official church statement concerning the fruit.  Jesus tells us you will know them by their fruit.  I, as a faithful conservative catholic, await its outcome.    

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/EDJU2CK5QKBVZH4UPXCAU6KEI4 Denita Arnold

    Thanks so much for this article.  I wish more would read it.  It’s sad after all this time
    folks still believe in these “apparitions.”  Unless the Church can prove otherwise, I 
    won’t.

  • catskat

    I would stay away from Caritas of Birmingham. Something is not quite right there. I went to Alabama, and had a bad feeling about the whole thing. Too much sensationalsm – just weird. The Caritas people there yelled at someone from our group for picking a wildflower (a cosmos, I think) there saying “Now a soul will not be set free from Purgatory because of you!!!!” – really???? There is too much focus on their leader, “a friend of Medjugorje”, who they hail as a prophet , “like the apostle Paul”, I was told.

    Medjugorje changed my life when I was a teenager, but even I have been staying away from it lately. I take its message of prayer and conversion, and leave the rest to the Church’s discernment. I just felt the need to simplify my spiritual life as focus entirely on God.

  • john konnor

    The bishop says it is
    a swindle… the church has spoken through the bishop… i see no problem with
    this… if people refuse to believe the bishop then why did Christ give them
    authority to loose and bind…when we turn our back on bishops we turn our back
    on Christ… true people have had conversions… but owing to what… based on
    what… surely not based on a desire to be obedient… …i am sure in some
    instances invincible ignorance is involved yet we owe it to God to make
    informed decisions…no obedience no virtue no virtue no good no good no God…
    these conversions run the risk of becoming empty self serving means of
    elevating the personality above that of the church creating a cult of
    personality in the process … a subversion of everything the church stands for
    … we have a hierarchy for a reason…this is what the devil wants to put the
    self and its will before the will of God … obedience mortifies the will of
    the self… the self is only Babylon revisited… See
    that you all follow the bishop,
    even as Jesus Christ
    does the Father, and
    the presbytery as you
    would the apostles;
    and reverence the deacons,
    as being the institution of God. Let no man do
    anything connected with the Church
    without the bishop.
    Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist,
    which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom
    he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear,
    there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is
    the Catholic Church. It is not lawful
    without the bishop
    either to baptize or
    to celebrate a love-feast;
    but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything
    that is done may be secure and valid-The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sam-Sundberg/100000503691206 Sam Sundberg

      Nov. 11: John Konnor – I believe Our Lady did appear at Medjugorje at the beginning but I find it hard to believe now and with the seers disobedience to their Bishop it makes it harder to believe. A sign of authenticity has always been, in the lives of the saints, obedience. This is why I no longer have faith in Fr. Frank Pavone: he deliberately disobeyed his Bishop and his fans stormed the Bishop’s residence (staying outside) to demand that he ‘free’ Fr. Pavone. Meanwhile Fr. Pavone was sending out massive amounts of e-mails demanding over and over in each e-mail that the recipient send him money, the largest amount of money possible…and this continues to the present day. Every tragedy, every situation, brings an e-mail from Fr. Pavone aggressively asking that we send him money, large amounts of money…I believe he did great work for the unborn but, like others, he became too full of himself and became the center…he says he isn’t getting enough money and if we don’t send more, babies will die…but he is not the only one out there fighting for the lives of the unborn…we need to really be prudent – and obedience is always the key;

      • john konnor

        This scenario is
        possible although highly unlikey… if anyone cares to study the chronicles on
        the history of the phenomenon it can be clearly seen that at the beginning of
        the alleged apparitions the seers were able to dialogue and pass messages to
        the gospa which were posed by the bystanders….they were in full control of
        their faculties and aware of their surroundings…now this is contradictory to when the Franciscans came into contact with
        the seers the nature of the alleged apparitions changed … the seers were
        purported to be in a sort of rapture state or an ecstasy ..not aware at all of
        their surroundings …which was most probably feigned as they were being
        manipulated by the Franciscans at the time… this is highly probable… Jesus
        encompassed the whole medjugorje phenomenon himself in this bible passage… From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that
        he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third
        day be raised to life.22
        Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said.
        “This shall never happen to you!” 23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get
        behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do
        not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself
        and take up his cross and follow me….. the problem with many medjugorje
        adherents is that they seek interior consolations… they seek good feelings
        inner tranquility and lights in the sky…I call this meadow-lark mysticism it is
        not honest it is false it is not sincere although some followers may be sincere
        due to invincible ignorance of the facts… the sun spinning etc… what does this
        have to do with Christian charity I ask???? An evil generation will seek signs
        and wonders…..the problem is these people are hungry for good feeling it is a
        form of gluttony that is called spiritual gluttony…. Instead of hungering for
        righteousness they hunger for self satisfaction through religion which is not
        loving God as we should… we need to love practically…to be patient,
        longsuffering, endure all things, if I can speak in tongues or prophecy it does
        me no good if I do not have charity …. the true test of love is to suffer for
        God…I am not trying to judge anyone’s heart but we all need to be careful and
        examine our own conscience to see where we stand…. Do we want signs and wonders….
        But miss those people in prison or who need a plate of food to eat? Jesus said it best … get thee behind me satan
        the spirit of man will not prevail or inherit the kingdom of heaven
        the devil loves it if we sit in our room pray our rosary go church attend eucharist but do not examine our conscience and are still full of sin what good is it if i fast on bread and water but calumniate the character of the bishop by openly defying him in public by feasting on his character through detraction…these displays which claim they are within their rights to do so yet secretly they despise all authority but their own ….. this is a poor exhibition of unity i would say……. There are three things especially pleasing to God,” said Abba Joseph the Thebite. “Illnesses suffered with patience, works done without ostentation and for His love only, and submission to a spiritual elder with perfect self-denial. This last thing will gain the greatest crown.”……

  • grace

    Good article … my husband and I did as much research years ago and were convinced it is false. The computer generated image was my first clue and then the endless messages my second. After that all the information we could gather (even “pro”) delivered a sickly queasey feeling to my stomache. The schism which will ensue this December will be unbridaled and scathing. I hope and pray that God’s mercy will unveil the evil for what it is is.

  • Therese

    There are more inaccuracies in this article than in Medugorje. Doctors have recorded 500 medical miracles and1,000 men have become Catholic priests after visiting Medugorje. Each month abou150,000 communion hosts are admistered and 10’s of thousands confessios are heard.

  • pro Medj

    Howard Kainz has many errors and much untrue information in his writing on Medjugorje. He also fails to mention that Pope John Paul II, many bishops, and thousands of priests see Medjugorje as a place that has and is producing much good by leading so many back to great faith, increasing the number of confessions and Communions, causing people to read and study the Bible and to say the Rosary daily as well as to “pray,pray,pray….” as Our Lady requests.
    Our Blessed Mother always acts as the Mediatrix to lead us to Jesus. The visionaries tell us repeatedly that she says her power comes from God.
    Mr. Kainz does not provide correct information regarding all the scientific testing that the visionaries have endured. They have been stuck with needles while in estacsy and not flinched. Their brains have shown unusual activity during apparitions. I recommend those not knowledgeable about Medjugorje find other sources of unbiased information and really study what has happened during the 311/2 years of Our Lady’s appearances to the 6 visionaries.
    Another correction is necessary: 3 of the visionaries have been given the 10 secrets; however, the other three (Marija, Ivan, and Vicka) have been told 9 secrets.
    I have been to Medjugorje and did see the sun spin 3 times, I was overcome with the smell of roses while praying in front of a statue of Our Lady, and my rosary chain (purchased in the U.S. a number of years ago did turn golden (much to the amazement of my family and others). So Mr. Kainz please do more research.
    The Vatican does not prohibit Catholics from being in Medjugorje and does have a Commission studying the apparitions. It would be rare for an apparition to be approved while still ongoing, Most apparitions are not approved for years after they end.
    Stephanie Walker
    M

    • Edward Baker

      Your repeating mere propaganda, and you are slandering Blessed John Paul who never gave an endorcement to this idiocy.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sam-Sundberg/100000503691206 Sam Sundberg

    Dec. 26th, 2012: I believe that Our Lady did appear at Medjugorje in the beginning. I didn’t at first but there was something about the youngest boy that caused me to change. However, I do not believe Mary is appearing there (or wherever the ‘seers’ happen to be) any longer. When there were complaints recently about the messages being the same and very short, all of a sudden, the messages became longer and more complex. Also, since Mary is the mother of all, why has there been almost no references about the millions and millions of her unborn children being exterminated in the womb. The most horrendous crime since the beginning of time and Mary says nothing. Now the seers are claiming that the Infant Jesus is appearing with Mary…I believe the faith of those who go to Medjugorje bring forth ‘miracles’ of conversions, vocations, even physical healings…and a deepening of faith. Mother Teresa of Calcutta has said that the cause of all the evils in our country is the slaughtering of innocent babes in the wombs of their mothers and yet, the Blessed Mother does not speak about this. Even Scripture speaks of the slaughter of the Innocents…faith can move mountains, as we know, and the deep faith and hope and trust of those who go to Medjugorje will always be blessed no matter what happens. I believe Mary appeared there once long ago and that presence will always draw people there …

  • http://www.facebook.com/james.hannon.5 James Hannon

    vs. “Approved apparitions?” Come on, folks. None of these apparitions are real. The seers may be psychotic or straight-up frauds but it really is time to let go of this nonsense.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Sam-Sundberg/100000503691206 Sam Sundberg

      Jan. 4th, James Hannon, if you have a response to give, please give it with intelligence and integrity instead of using words like “psychotic or frauds”…you make a statement as if you know everything…have you been to Medjugorje? Perhaps it is Mary, the Mother of God you have a problem with? I, personally, do not believe in these apparitions at this time…I do believe Our Lady appeared long ago there but no longer; however that is my personal belief, I have no facts and will wait until the Church decides. You should wait too and, meanwhile, try to refrain from printing nasty comments. Ask Our Lady to help you. I’m sure she will.

  • greybees

    Fine article. Having close ties with Franciscans in America for decades I am shocked that members of this order would run amuck and defy the Church. But the more one learns about the history of Medjugorje the less defensible their actions appear. Over the years the pilgrimage center has become a huge money maker and their are now many takers. There is, however, no Bernadette in this saga.

  • Good Hubby

    I am glad you were not around about 1900 years ago. You would probably be writing about that Resurrection hoax and some “so-called” Eucharist stuff.

    • Edward Baker

      How dare you associate the Eucharist with these antics occuring that present the Mother of God as a clown.

  • Pingback: OMINOUS: New Pope is positive towards Medjugorje Hoax | James Prime

  • Rpflannery

    For what it’s worth at this point, the church is not going to make a final decision on Medjugorje until the visions come to an end. The church literally has all the time in the world to make a decision. Consider how long it has take some to be canonized. The church does not make radical moves…there is a reason why it has existed so long. No doubt Medjugorje will not be decided until long after the visionaries have since passed.

    • Edward Baker

      Not true. The Church, as well as common sense, has already declared this to be phony by the authority of the bishops. The bishops have appealed to Rome to create a more forceful condemnation because the blasphemy has taken on schismatic proportions.

  • john konnor
  • Tom P

    If you carefully study the style and content of the messages of Fatima and Lourdes, you can’t possibly conclude that the messages from Medjugorje come from the same source. The previous apparitions have clear messages that support and reinforce church dogma and teachings. The Medjugorje messages are often vague and seem to provide “new” teachings such as the equivalency of faiths and acceptance of the charismatic movement. This alone makes me wonder as to who is behind these apparitions. Also note the reported Satan/Blessed mother “mixed” apparition, NEVER reported before in church history . Would the Mother of GOD allow such a grotesque sight? It seems unlikely to me. Lets pray to God to reveal us the truth, whatever it is.

  • johnkonnnor72

    …it is not enough that Jesus suffered a horrible passion because of our sin to show how much God loves us… some people need the mother of God to appear to them on a daily basis to tell them they are loved by God…what you hear quite often is that Mary is appearing just for “US”…or for her children..as if we are the centre of the universe and the virgin Mary is reserving herself just for us…it sounds quite self centred….it is interesting that the apparitions so called started at the begginning of the eighties….the message you hear in quite a subtle way is that Mary is appearing for “ME”..or I owe “MY’ conversion to this place..it is all about what I got out of it and it doesnt matter what anyone else has to say I am right because what i feel makes me an authority….it is not for nothing that they call the eighties the “ME” generation…remember the devil fell from grace because he said “I” will not serve…. it is also interesting that padre pio said another name for satan is “ME”..mine or I…as in I want this or that in opposition to what God wants for me….it is not enough that we are told by the bishop here that there is no apparition of course someone who is in love with themself will not listen to anyone but themself….it goes without saying…what many in medjugorje are experiencing is not love of God or Mary or Jesus but love of themselves….that is why if medjugorje dies their relationship with themselves will suffer..and this is why they defend it so vehemently it becomes PERSONAL…because medjugorje offers these people another outlet with which to love themselves……

  • Edward Baker

    The mother of God is not a clown as she has been presented
    by these phonies at various times. She does not predict sports scores. She does
    not believe that all religions are the same. She does not make deals with the
    devil to perform a guest appearance. She does not claim that if the town drunk
    had not thrown a bloody handkerchief into the river the world would have ended.
    She does not side with Luther and claim that we have no need for intermediaries
    like priests. She does not insult the local bishops. She does not approve of
    the sin of pride in wanting rosaries to turn to gold.

    But Gospa has promoted of these idiocies and more. By the way,
    you might want to consider the significance of Ivan having said a couple of
    decades ago, in a rare slip of honesty, that he’s not sure what he is seeing.

  • palemieux

    A one sided article.

    St. James Church was a large Church built in the middle of nowhere, in a tiny Croatian village. It didn’t fit the environment. Why, if we are blaming Satan, would he have gone through the trouble, had the massive conversions and miracles coming from it. In the end it may not be approved, but considering the good coming from it, I’m guessing it will be. There are a reported 10 secrets to be revealed in the future along with a visible sign left that will prove it was not a hoax. At that time I have read that a certain man that is blind will have his sight back. I have never heard of the four year old boy. You did not mention how young these children were when it started, what would be gained from it for them? What about tremendous sufferings and tests they have been through, and the positive fruits, conversions, spiritual and physical healing that have taken place. One visionary recently surprised people by discrediting many of the Medjugorje books in circulation, although she did not say which ones. Have you spent time in Medjugorje for ten or fifteen days to report what you have seen firsthand? And how much of your information and sources are not misinterpreted? Let’s not just show one side of the story.

    • john konnor

      ..because as John Paul 2 said…cut off from the bishops not even devotion to the eucharist can unite the faithful to the mystical body of Christ….true some people are ignorant of the fact however many are not and open defiance to a spiritual authority is not pleasing to God..obedience to the church is how one enters by the door…as Jesus said whoever enters the sheepfold by another way is a thief and a robber…

      ‘Cut off from the Bishops, not even devotion to the Eucharist itself can unite
      the faithful to the Mystical Body of Christ.’ [Pope John Paul II, Ecclesia
      de Eucharistia 2003, Chap 4, part 39]

  • Mark

    How can a professor emeritus at Marquette University misquote scripture so badly? Matthew 24:24 and Mark 13:22 do NOT say “false prophets will deceive the elect.” They say they would do so “if it were possible.” Big difference. Let’s not twist the Word to suit our argument. Furthermore, one wonders how several decades of the message: “Pray, fast, do penance, go to Mass, pray the rosary” is winning souls for satan. But instead of making that case, far easier to dredge up the old animosity between the Franciscans and the diocese – a struggle that predates the alleged apparitions at Medjugore by far – and use that as proof there can be no validity to any of this. The local Bishop wasn’t deemed competent to judge the case and so in a first-ever move, the Vatican took it over. Or doesn’t that matter in your lop-sided crusade to paint the story as black as possible?

    • john konnor

      ..indeed..calumny is a favourite tool of the proud and the conceited…Jesus indeed said the faithful will be deceived…mark 13:5-6…

      5. And Jesus answering them began to say, “Take heed lest any man deceive you:

      6. For many shall come in My name, saying, ‘I am Christ;’ and shall deceive many

      …..and in relation to the “if it were possible”…the meaning is subtle…yes the elect will persevere however some who are decieved are not of the elect…

      Greg., Hom in Ezech. i, 9: Why however is it said with a doubt “if it were possible,” when the Lord knows beforehand what is to be? One of two things is implied; that if they are elect, it is not possible; and if it is possible, they are not elect. This doubt therefore in our Lord’s discourse expresses the trembling in the mind of the elect. And He calls them elect, because He sees that they will persevere in faith and good works; for those who are chosen to remain firm are to be tempted to fall by the signs of the preachers of Antichrist.-catena aurea…commentary on the gospel of mark

  • john konnor
  • Mia

    Came across this website ONLY because I have a charm that I placed on a bracelet that I received when I was 17 years old (I’m 42 now) that a very great friend of mine gave me after returning from a trip that I “thought” she said was Jerusalem (I stress “thought”) it has this small pic. on the front that I have attached & just says MEDUGORJE (spelled this way as far as I can see) with a cross on the back so I decided to do a “little” research. Well, it’s been longer than an hour & enough already! I have read SO many different & conflicting things about this that it’s going to stop here. What is everyone on here babbling about Satan (thanks Dave I like your comment bellow) & then it all of a sudden turns into abortion comments? Enough! Sounds like a bunch of Catholic hippocracy to me (I grew up Catholic & none of it ever made sense to me & when I would ask the Nuns questions in CCD classes I was made out to be a trouble maker & was just always told “because” with NO reason what so ever & no one ever followed what was thrown out by Catholicism in my Family anyways). I consider myself non denominational & a Christian & that’s it. Ya, I’ll surely be contributing to Crisis magazine as well with a secure donation (that’s a Catholic for ya)..just shut up & give us $$$$$$$$ so we can continue to corrode your minds with nonsense. If anyone reading this can please give me a true meaning as to what this means or explain it without involving abortion & Satan junk please do. If not, don’t reply. I don’t want to hear from you. Thank you.

    • cyberman304

      Hi Mia,
      In a nutshell Medjugorje is a place, in the former Yugoslavia, where the Blessed Virgin is supposedly appearing. Two successive Bishops of condemned the events as a hoax. I’m sorry to hear about your situation. Over the last 40-50 catechesis has been hit hard in the Western World. There is a lot of misunderstanding about what the Catholic Church does and does not teach. I did not get that good of instruction when I was going through Catholic school. What I know I had to learn myself. Anyway, if I can help you to learn more about the Faith I would be happy to do so.
      God Bless

    • Nick_from_Detroit

      I’m 45, Mia. So, we grew up at a terrible time in the Church, as Cyberman points out. I, also, had to educate myself, with the help of the Holy Spirit, on what exactly the Catholic Church teaches. The two most helpful resources that I found were the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and EWTN. You may check them both out at these links:

      http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

      http://www.ewtn.com/index.asp

      God Bless!

      • Mia

        Hi Nick,

        I clicked on both links (although I thank you for your reply & you are entitled to believe in whatever you chose as I) it didn’t answer my initial question which was I just simply wanted to know what the MEDUGORJE (original spelling) or Medjugorje meant. Yes, it means “between mountains” but as I stated I simply could not find anything that I read that was the same information (yes, I do understand people will have different views on it) but the links you provided were just all on the Catholic church. Sorry to say Nick but I think you are just another person trying to push the Catholic religion onto people (or worse getting paid to do so) as you sure seem to be on this site very often (8 hrs ago again)? And your responses seem quite argumentative as well. This was just an interest to me to find out more about it (but I guess I just don’t have as much time as you seem to have) to keep replying to these types of forums. As I said though – If anyone else would like to take a stab @ explaining this to me without harping on about Satan/abortions/gay marriage etc. (basically STOP attacking each other I haven’t) then feel free to do so. Thank you.

    • john konnor

      ..if we use an analogy of the sun…which is a weak analogy and feeble since words are not adequate to describe God who is transcendent,, anyway…if God the father as the power of the trinity is sun he is set above all to illuminate …since Jesus is the word of guidance of God then Jesus is the light…and so since you cannot separate light from sun…as well if God is power and Jesus is light and the heat of the union is the energy of the sun and the source of all creation we say the Holy Spirit is the heat which allows creation to subsist in God…we see the trinity in action…power…light…love…all three possess characteristics of each other since they are inseparable….and since God is the simplest substance of all and is unchanging and eternal and not divisble we understand that the voice of God must come from a single source undivided…we have the church that Jesus commissioned through his apostles…this is the single source of the voice of God on earth….the church was first then came the canonized bible with the gospel..and so we have the church to guide us..Jesus is the head of the mystical body the church….once we come to understand the truths contained in the church..we will understand the ramifications of abortion and its consequent effects on unity and peace and truth…once we understand the church and its truths we can come to know how the deceptions of satan can pull us out of the light and love of the church and lead us into the dark and cold of ignorance and sin…as i said it is a feeble analogy…take care and God bless…

  • Michelle

    http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=96793

    Great link—-shows how “it” really began. F.Vlasic, during a dispute with the Bishop and the Vatican, just happens to “predict” that Our Lady would appear in Bosnia…then voilá…a few short months later…Medugorje. Then he sets himself up as someone in “charge” of the “seers”—a way to come out on top. Dear God…have mercy on him. He doesn’t really know what he has done.

    Sad…undisputed…I used to believe that this was all true years ago. But you get people hungry for power and disaster follows. God has made some good come out of it, but the truth must come out nevertheless. This hurts any credible apparition sites.

  • Invernessity

    THE WEBSITE LINKED ABOVE IS NOT THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE OF MEDJUGORJE. THE OFFICIAL SITE IS MEDJUGORJE.HR.

  • Sr. Rose

    Why would Satan ask people to pray to Jesus and to pray more frequently? I do not believe this article. It misrepresents the truth. Often there are priests and even Bishops who are corrupt and unfaithful to God, ordering visionaries to obey them by stating the visions are not true. Mankind is full of corruption. So is this article.

  • Believe in Peace

    It is through a pure heart than one can see the truth and the light. Praise to Mary for sharing such simple ways for all of us to grow in faith and love through her messages.

  • Dexter Leleux

    I know that their is a lot of controversy about Medijori. I have read a lot of the messages given. I do not Believe that this is from the devil ,I truly Believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary is giving these messages. If you really read them & meditate on the messages I truly feel that they are coming from our Blessed Mother. I think it is time for me to start Praying very hard to receive a answer from heaven on this matter. I Believe Prayer concurs Everything

  • chuckssite

    It has been well over 20 years since I was in Medjugorje, so I forget many of
    the details. I do remember that I have never felt so at peace than when I
    walked to the top of Apparition Hill about midnight by myself and sat in
    prayerful silence where Our Lady had begun the appearances. No, she didn’t
    appear to me or speak to me as she apparently did to others; not only did I talk
    to the visionaries, but also to one who “only” had locutions. I felt they were
    sincere at the time. And, I felt that Fr. Jozo and Fr. Barbaric were as well
    although I was the only one that wasn’t slayed by the spirit when touched by Fr.
    Jozo. But I did experience many “out of the ordinary” things. We did have the
    same experience of the sun, being able to stare directly at it, seeing it seem
    to pulsate or rotate with a bright ring around the edge that seemed to reverse
    direction, back and forth. While on top of the Apparition Hill, I looked over
    to the adjacent hill (I forget the name) where there was a 30 foot high
    cross, and suddenly, it was was illuminated as if on fire (there is no
    electricity up there – again it was about midnight). Prior to my going,
    my wife was not too keen on going, saying that she didn’t have to go to Europe
    to find Mary, but her rosary did change color from silver to a goldish really
    more gold-bronze. We felt it was a sign. Earlier, I had attended a meeting of
    Medjugorje Witness, a group at our church in Bloomington, IN that went every
    year (this was about 1989) and published a newsletter. During the showing of
    slides of the latest trip, I felt a distinct warming that started in my feet and
    worked its way up through my body to my shoulders and arms and head. I took
    this as a sign that I should go. Our neighbor next door was also going and
    decided to host a prayer session each week for a couple of months prior to our
    trip, and that was to include the Rosary. Whoops! I had converted to the
    Church in May, 1981, just prior to the beginning of the Apparitions, and
    my wife gave me a Rosary which, I am sorry to say, I had never even removed it
    from its case until we were ready to pray next door. I decided that I had
    better learn how to do the Rosary, and fast, so I took it out. The links were a
    bronze-gold color as was the zipper on the case. I asked my wife if that was
    the way it was when purchased. No, she said, the links were a silver color.
    Another sign? I thought it might be a tarnish, but I have not been able to
    clean it back to the silver color. Now, I felt pretty good – was I picked
    somehow as special? But while we were in Medjugorje, I was shown a Rosary by
    Jim Wade, a Bloomington grade school principal, that was a bright gold, the
    color one expects when one says “gold.” Now, I mention Jim because I found out
    later that his wife, Ruth Ann Wade, a teacher, (you can Google her name) had
    been receiving messages for the prayer group at St. Charles Borromeo Catholic
    Church from both Jesus and Mary as well as private messages. She had a healing
    ministry as well. They went to Medjugorje as believers. Read about the
    transformation to their farm that happened at the request of Mary from prayer
    services, to Stations of the Cross up a hill on their farm, to the building of a
    chapel at the top of that hill, to visiting priests saying Mass, to the complete
    transformation of the Farm to a Franciscan Retreat House. I still get copies of
    her conversations with Mary and Jesus from a group called Mary’s Children (these
    are reprints as Ruth Ann no longer gets those messages for publication). Another interesting coincidence is that presently I am reading about the events
    of Fatima. One of the reports from Fatima talked about everyone seeing multiple
    colors of light. It happened to us on our return trip from Medjugorje! There
    was a group from Texas that was weaving Rosaries from fabric. My wife knew how
    to macramé so she started to do one, and I asked if they would do one for me,
    Just as they were weaving my Rosary, the whole inside of the airplane was bathed
    in all the colors of the rainbow. Now I wonder if Ruth Ann was receiving a
    message from Mary or Jesus! At the time I didn’t know any of the details of
    Fatima, but I know I had never seen such color on a plane in all my travels.
    Were these all coincidences? Does Mary and even Jesus visit us? When I was
    following her messages 20 years ago, they were mostly “Follow my Son.” There
    did not seem to be any attempt to say or do anything false. It seemed to me
    that the Bishop at the time had other reasons, though I don’t remember details
    now, for being against the seers. I remember that many people strengthened
    their faith at Medjugorje; I am certain that I did. Mary appears to many people
    around the world with warnings and pleas to follow Jesus. There were visions to
    a Conceptionist Sister in Quito, Ecuador i(Mother Mariana de Jesus Torres) in
    the early 1600’s from Our Lady of Good Success. In addition to some
    miracles the Blessed Mother made prophecies about events that would happen in
    the Church in both Quito and worldwide, many of which are understood to have
    already come true. She predicted great upheaval in the Church that would occur
    in the late 19th and 20th centuries, but assured Mother Mariana that, in the
    end, there would be a restoration. Do we believe in Mary’s visits and her
    messages? I do, and my experiences on my trip to Medjugorje seem to indicate
    that something extra normal was in effect. Thus, I look on the attempts of
    those who want to disparage the events of Medjugorje with suspicion.

  • marybernadette

    ‘We must always pray that the faithful are protected from the “wiles” of the enemy!””
    I know that the Church has not officially approved of Medjugorje, however, I really believe Our Mother is appearing there. Our Lady did not say that all Religions are”equal” but that we are all loved by God equally and He wants us all in Heaven. I paraphrased the last part, but that is the truth of the message.

  • the voice

    I do know what is real or not, having not made a pilgrimage to Medjugorje. However, I find it funny that what makes it “devil based” is because the visionaries disobeyed their bishops. Did not Joan of Arc disobey? Did not St. Hildegard disobey the hierarchy with her visions? Perhaps the LORD and HIS blessed Mother are sick and tired of the exclusive men’s club who preach the word of God, but treat their fellow men with disdain. I pray that the visionaries are protected from the unholy enemy and ‘its” many minions. As for Wolf in sheep’s clothing, well I am not sure that the supposed holy men of God cannot cast this stone.

  • Pingback: Medjugorje: What I Saw at the Apparition

  • oyecomova

    …..if after so many years Satan’s subterfuge has only caused a resurgence in penitence,saying of the rosary,fasting,meditation,sacrifice,then surely Satan’s big scam has backfired?…. to keep on expecting the ‘scam’ to unfold is as foolish as obstinately rejecting the obvious positive fruits of the phenomena and it seems blindly hoping that the local bishop’s negative should be the last word is just as daft….as in Fatima,Lourdes,Garabandal, the local clergy are liable to be the most resistant to reports of visions and for a good reason since they’d be calling them every other month if they weren’t extremely careful,but in Medj. as I recall the local bishop had his wings clipped and an investigative committee without his input was eventually established, since his efforts were apparently obviously less than objective…..

  • Marian minded

    Deceivers love to create the clever lie… doing a little research on this author it is easy to see the slippery slope of Hegel (a protestant theologian) dominated research and ideas sprinkled with Marxist logic… Satan would delight in this article, creating doubt in the minds of devout Catholic’s, especially against his arch enemy, the one who crushes Satan himself with her heel, Mary beloved mother of our Lord Jesus Christ.

  • John Albertson

    Two of the chief theological advocates of Medjugorje, Father Robert Faricy and Father Rene Laurentin, also championed the pseudo-mystic Vessula Ryden and her claims of mystical handwriting dictated by Jesus. This was declared a hoax by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1995 under John Paul II. This is a bizarre cult which should have been nipped in the bud – like the Bayside Long Island “apparitions.”. Have the above mentiioned clergymen every come across a supposed revelation they did not like? Credulity is an offense against the virtue of holy religion. When and if the Holy See officially pronounces against Medjugorje there should be an interesting psychological study of how this phenomenon was perpetrated for so long.

    • LizEst

      Championed Vessula? Yikes!

  • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

    The “fruits” of Medjugorje derive from Marian devotion in general, not from this particular source. They do not derive from the authenticity of the revelations of these “seers,” which have no authenticity. The visions are clearly fraudulent. Medjugorje is a classic hoax.

    • bellaluna220

      I hope before you judge you visit there with an open heart.

      • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

        One only need listen to the foolish ramblings of the “seers” to know it is a hoax. (And by the way, I have met two of them, as they were “on tour” hawking their phony medicine.)

        • bellaluna220

          So you consider prayer, fasting, attending Mass and reading the Bible as “hawking phony medicine?” Please Dr. Williams, visit Medjugorje. Go see for yourself. And when you are there, go as a skeptic but also with a humble heart. If you come back and still believe it is a hoax, then I will listen to what you have to say.

          • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

            Your missing the point. The fruits of Marian devotion are available to every Catholic. They are no doubt operative in Medjugorje, just as they are in my native Oklahoma. That does not mean the Blessed Virgin is appearing to people in Medjugorje or in my living room. Study a little of the history of the Medjugorje “apparitions,” and the loony things Mary is supposed to have said and endorsed there, and the gross immorality of the Franciscan “spiritual directors” of the seers. That is all that needs to be known about this disgraceful hoax.

            • bellaluna220

              No, it is you missing the point. Yes, the fruits of Marian devotion have been available for almost 2,000 years yet the Blessed Mother has appeared to Juan Diego, the children of Fatima as well as Bernadette in Lourdes. Has the world gotten better? Six children ranging in age from 10-16 who have not changed their story in over 30 years. Why do you choose to pick apart everything and be so negative without even going there to see and experience it for yourself? The church has not approved Medjugorje, nor have they condemned it. Many Bishops have noted numerous conversions and an increase in prayer and conversions because of it.

              • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

                The “seers” have changed their story… many times. (And the story was quite bizarre to begin with). When many of the supposed messages of the Blessed Virgin are trite, new age nonsense, I have every right to be negative. People who chase apparitions are showing extreme disrespect for the Mother of Christ.

                • thebigdog

                  I enjoy your posts, but I have to ask, have you read any books on the subject? Some go back to the 80’s and the Church still has not ruled one way or the other on Medjugorje, so who are we to claim that we know better than the Church?

                  I’m not saying that I completely accept it, but knowing human nature, one of the seers could have made millions writing a tell all book and that hasn’t happened.

                  • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

                    I have read a great deal about Medjugorje. And yes, the “seers,” and their Franciscan handlers, have made a great deal of money off of this “apparition.” A “tell all” book? How about just book sales in general, and speaking tours, to gullible Catholics? I have personally met two of the “seers,” and heard them speak. This is an embarrassing fraud… not even intelligently concocted. The ramblings of “Our Lady of Peace” are incessant, trite, banal, contradictory, and heterodox, when not outright New Age (which they often are).

                    • thebigdog

                      Thanks for the response. Why did Pope JPII say “only good things are happening at Mejugorje” and why haven’t either of the two Popes since condemn the visionaries?

                    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

                      He never said that. And the Church does not bother to condemn a great many “visionaries” because she lacks the time and resources to investigate them all. False apparitions are so common that the best strategy is just to ignore them. (Just look at the goofy Bayside apparitions in New York.) I think also that the falseness of Medjugorje – and the blatant disobedience of those who promote it – is so obvious that the authorities feel it hardly needs to be discredited any further. It’s like asking “Why hasn’t the Church come out with a definitive condemnation of Heaven’s Gate?” (the group that worshiped the Hale-Bopp comet).

                    • thebigdog
                    • Dr. Timothy J. Williams

                      THIS is your idea of a reliable source? A site that sells pilgrimages to Medjugorje, in blatant violation of the order of the local ordinary (which still stands and has been ratified by Rome) FORBIDDING such pilgrimages! What do you expect them to say? Of course they will quote out of context, make up quotes, and falsely attribute quotes of an off-hand nature that have no authority. Trying reading a little of the real history of Medjugorje, such as the “seers” original spiritual director, Fr. Tomislav Vlasic, who preached on Marian apparitions just weeks before these “apparitions” began, and then went on to impregnate a nun, leave the Catholic church, and found a New Age cult; or the Franciscan declared a saint in a “revelation” by the “Gospa,” only one day after his death and despite the fact that he had been excommunicated for many sexual improprieties, such as raping a young American pilgrim. I could go on and on, but what is the point? All this is well-documented. Whether Medjogorje will ever be condemned or not is anyone’s guess. Anathema is a word Rome seldom uses these days. But it will never be declared worthy of belief, unless Rome cease being Rome altogether.

                    • thebigdog

                      “Whether Medjogorje will ever be condemned or not is anyone’s guess.”

                      After your vitriol, why wouldn’t it be condemned? Also, Spirit Daily deserves more respect than you have shown it…. I only provided that link to show you one of the many sources which provides Pope John Paul II saying “only good things are happening at Medjugorje”

                      Again, I find the situation interesting, but not a “believer” and I don’t see why condemning (without authority) the place on earth that has hosted the most conversions and reversions to the faith as well as the greatest number of people going to confession, that would reflect wisdom.

                      If the Church condemns Medjugorje, I will never give it another thought. If the Church approves Medjugorje, I will study the messages more deeply. It seems that folks like you on the other hand are all in on the negative side. What will you do if the Church approves Medjugorje? Will you contact everyone to whom you have spread error and apologize? No, you will simply say, “even if the Church approves private revelations, we are not obligated to recognize them” How convenient.

  • Mack

    Medjugorje is a beautiful conversion site, many many pilgrims come to God there. If you are too blind to see the holy fruits of Medjugorje, then you would think it was false. It is not blasphemous, it follows Catechism and the Catholic faith to a T. I wish to go there one day. God Bless!

  • Larry

    Thank you Mack! These apparitions have not been approved and probably will not be approved until the Secrets are revealed. Also, Fatima and Lourdes and every apparition site of Our Lady have had disbelievers…if there we no doubts whatsoever THAT would be more scary to me…it is not disobedience in the Church because the Catholic Church has neither denied nor approved of the apparitions yet. If you look at the beautiful and holy lives of the visionaries and people in Medjugorje you would see such good things coming from it, I myself hope to one day go there. A pilgrimage to Medjugorje has only brought a closer relationship with God, in all of the situations I have heard of. I hope the author of this article, Howard will open his eyes and see he is persecuting his Holy Mother in Christ. I do believe Our Lady, Mary, The Most Holy Queen is appearing in Medjugorje. Our Lady Of Medjugorje pray for us! God Bless!

  • Caroline

    Our Lady of Medjugorje has many times said abortion and drug addiction and the lack of peace in our world are the cause of so much sinfulness…She has told us to especially pray for the youth of the world because they are so tempted toward the evil of this world.

  • john konnor
  • Patrick7Gormley

    If Medjugorje produces the fruit of humility why do all devotees say that there are no doctrinal or theological errors in the messages it would take you
    years to study them all for there are so many – and they blame the translation if somebody points out any. I wouldn’t mind theologians saying there are no errors but what makes all these devotees experts? Humility would demand that you say you think there are no errors but are open to persuasion for you are not a theologian.

  • Pingback: An Old Evil ; A New One World Religion | A voice from the desert

  • Pingback: When Satan Pulls Wool Over Our Eyes

  • bellaluna220

    When Jesus walked the earth, he was criticized for healing on the Sabbath and his disciples were criticized for plucking corn and working on the Sabbath. Why do you judge? Our Lady of Medjugorje asks for Prayer, Conversion, Fasting, to read the Bible and to attend the Holy Mass. Those who pick apart her appearances and her messages or look to criticize the visionaries, place their pride before God. Pray with an open heart. The truth of the what God is doing in Medjugorje will be revealed to you. Better yet….. Go visit.

  • Laramie Stewart

    Real apparitions don’t promote heresy.

MENU