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  • A Pro-Life Libertarian Defense

    by Laurence M. Vance

    atlas

    In a recent article “Should Libertarians Be Conservatives” some libertarians were quite annoyed because I expressed my opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage.

    I addressed the subject of same-sex marriage in an article on June 8. There I argued that there is no libertarian position on same-sex marriage. I address here the subject of libertarianism and abortion.

    What I recently said about abortion in my article “Should Libertarians Be Conservatives” that ruffled the feathers of some libertarians was this:

    I have argued that because the non-aggression axiom is central to libertarianism, and because force is justified only in self-defense, and because it is wrong to threaten or initiate violence against a person or his property, and because killing is the ultimate form of aggression that, to be consistent, libertarians should be opposed to abortion.

    The link I gave was to my article “Is Ron Paul Wrong on Abortion?” in which I said these things:

    Why should it be considered libertarian to kill a baby in the womb or unlibertarian to oppose such killing? And even worse, why would a libertarian say that it was unlibertarian to advocate killing foreigners in an aggressive war but not unlibertarian to kill a baby in the womb?

    Killing someone is the ultimate form of aggression. Especially a helpless, defenseless fetus that is only guilty of suddenly waking up in a womb. The fetus certainly had no control over being a parasite, aggressing against a woman, invading a woman’s body, or adding unwanted pounds to his host – but its mother certainly did. If an unborn child is not entitled to protection of life, then to be consistent, libertarians should have no problem with the abortion of a fetus from one month old to nine months old. The nine-month old fetus is no more viable than the one-month old one. In fact, a one-month old baby has the same degree of viability. I hate to be so crude, but leave all three of them unattended on a table in a hospital and see what happens.

    Why should it be considered libertarian to kill a baby in the womb or unlibertarian to oppose such killing? This has nothing to do with giving the government greater control over a woman’s body; it has everything to do with preventing aggression and protecting innocent life.

    If Roe v. Wade were overturned and abortion laws were once again made the provision of the states, there would be nothing unlibertarian about supporting state laws making abortion a crime just as laws against murder, manslaughter, and wrongful death are considered legitimate actions of the states.

    I base my statements about abortion on the libertarian non-aggression principle, which I believe is also a biblical principle, or else I wouldn’t hold to it.

    According to the late Murray Rothbard here and here:

    The fundamental axiom of libertarian theory is that no one may threaten or commit violence (“aggress”) against another man’s person or property. Violence may be employed only against the man who commits such violence; that is, only defensively against the aggressive violence of another. In short, no violence may be employed against a non-aggressor. Here is the fundamental rule from which can be deduced the entire corpus of libertarian theory.

    Libertarianism holds that the only proper role of violence is to defend person and property against violence, that any use of violence that goes beyond such just defense is itself aggressive, unjust, and criminal. Libertarianism, therefore, is a theory which states that everyone should be free of violent invasion, should be free to do as he sees fit except invade the person or property of another.

    And according to Rothbard’s disciple Walter Block here and here:

    Libertarianism is a political philosophy. It [is] concerned solely with the proper use of force. Its core premise is that it should be illegal to threaten or initiate violence against a person or his property without his permission; force is justified only in defense or retaliation.

    The libertarian position on anything is based on the question of, Does it violate the non aggression principle (NAP) about initiating or threatening physical violence. If so, the libertarian position is that it should be illegal, and punished by the full force of the law. If not, the libertarian position is that it should be legal, and it would be unjustified to use physical violence against the person who engages in that act.

    Because a child in the womb is helpless, not initiating violence, not committing aggression, and not there of its own accord, I believe that, to be consistent, libertarians should not only be opposed to abortion, but in favor of making it a criminal act just like murder, rape, kidnapping, theft, assault, and robbery would be in any libertarian society based on the non-aggression principle.

    Now, what sort of penalty should be imposed, how criminality would be determined, how to divide culpability between the woman and her doctor, how to handle situations where pregnancy is the result of rape or incest, how to handle situations where parents force their pregnant teenage daughter to get an abortion, how far along the pregnancy has to be, etc., etc., etc. are things that would have to be determined that I don’t profess to have precise answers to. But, aside from premeditated, witnessed, proven-beyond-a-doubt first degree murder, neither do I have precise answers as to what the penalty should be for manslaughter, rape, kidnapping, theft, assault, or robbery.

    I reproduce below relevant portions of interaction regarding the subject of abortion that I had with five “pro-choice” libertarians. Judging from the whole of what they wrote to me, I don’t expect to change their minds. My responses follow.

    Libertarian Pro-Choice Argument 1

    Try as I might, I can’t reconcile a position favoring small, non-intrusive government, with support for the criminalization of abortion, which necessarily involves the government sticking its nose into doctors’ examining rooms, and one could say, into the orifices of any woman being examined there.”

    It cannot be denied that pregnancy is inherently dangerous, therefore any abortion can always be justified as defensive, not initiated force. It is an unpleasant fact that we all start our lives as parasites, and a potential mother has no more obligation to support such a parasite in her body than the body politic has to support “welfare parasites.”

    I would kindly ask that you either: 1) Don’t tell people that you’re a libertarian if you’re going to defend a “pro-life” position, or 2) Don’t tell people you’re pro-life if you’re going to defend a libertarian position.

    People like you are “spoiling the brand name,” and if folks hear you advocate both libertarianism and anti-abortionism, it may reinforce their false belief that we are far-right wingers.

    Libertarian Pro-Choice Argument 2

    [T]he right to life does not include the right to live at the expense of another. If it does, then government wealth redistribution is OK, right? Making abortion illegal again would turn the gift of life into just another entitlement coerced by government force.

    Also, I am given to understand that quite often a fertilized egg fails to implant in the lining of the uterus and is expelled during menstruation, making God, if you will, perhaps the biggest performer of abortions.”

    Libertarian Pro-Choice Argument 3

    I would like to someday hear from the “Pro-lifers” how we would deal with a pregnant woman that does not want to carry her unborn fetus to the full term and give birth to a child. What does a “libertarian” society do with her? What does a “libertarian” society do with her…legally?

    Tell us how to be libertarians and advocate criminal activity to abortion. Tell us what we SHOULD DO legally when a woman chooses to abort. Is it OK to put her in a straitjacket in a padded cell and force feed her to keep her and her fetus healthy?

    How should the law deal with an unwanted pregnancy. And by the way to your question “Should abortion be legal at anytime before the child is born?” My answer is yes. You and I may not like the choice someone makes but as long as we have the “right to life” I can’t see any other meaning to that than the right to our own life. The woman makes the choice and will have to live with it her entire life.

    Libertarian Pro-Choice Argument 4

    The bureaucratic apparatus that would be required to actually prevent and/or punish even a fraction of abortions would be overarching, imposing, and by necessity invade the privacy of all women.

    It would be but another tentacle of the already metastasized and gut-wrenchingly corrupt “justice” system that has – with little effect on crime – built a gulag system filled with more hopeless convicts than any other time in history or place in the world.  And you’d like to add to this? Really? Should we not be focused on limiting, or better yet removing, state power?

    Such an apparatus would necessarily impose force and coercion, and as such be the antithesis of “libertarian.” Frankly, I think this is why so many “conservative” politicians slobber over the issue, it would allow them more justification to spend more money on prisons and police while engendering a tumescent response from their latent sadism.

    It really doesn’t matter if abortion itself is “libertarian” or not, any attempt to stop it would require un-libertarian means. Just as there can never really be a libertarian war, since all war harms the innocent.

    Libertarian Pro-Choice Argument 5

    I personally take the Rothbardian position that while regrettable that the fetus cannot live outside the mother’s womb, it is slavery to force a woman to carry an unwanted child to term. A woman’s right to have an abortion has nothing to do with a woman’s “right to privacy” and everything to do with her right of self-ownership. You wouldn’t allow anyone to forcibly insert any object into your body without your consent. By the same token, it would be well within your rights to remove an object consensually inserted into your body at any time. This is the most basic application of your inalienable right of self-ownership.

    I see perhaps nine things that I need to address.

    First, opposition to abortion is not an exclusively far-right wing or conservative position. This was the whole point of my original article, “Should Libertarians Be Conservatives?” Libertarians who advocate “anti-abortionism” shouldn’t abandon their position so they won’t be mistaken for conservatives anymore than they should abandon their advocacy of lower taxes, the free market, and other things that liberals associate with the right wing. And if a libertarian advocates ”pro-abortionism,” won’t it reinforce the false belief that libertarians are far left-wingers?

    Second, although it is true that “often a fertilized egg fails to implant in the lining of the uterus and is expelled during menstruation,” this doesn’t necessarily make God the “biggest performer of abortions.” Just because God allows something to happen doesn’t mean he’s the cause of it. Otherwise he would be responsible for all abortions. God “giveth to all life, and breath, and all things” (Acts 17:25) and “in him we live, and move, and have our being” (Acts 17:28). As the author of life, God can take life anytime he chooses in any manner he chooses.

    Third, if an act violates the non-aggression principle, as I believe abortion does, then I think it inherently means that it should be punished in some way. Thus, to be consistent, pro-life libertarians should also support the criminalization of abortion just like they support the criminalization of other acts of aggression like murder and robbery. The fact that there may be no living victim to seek restitution and that all those who had knowledge of the victim (woman, boyfriend, doctor, nurse) preferred him dead is irrelevant just like it is in the case of the murder of someone who is already out of the womb.

    Fourth, that the U.S. has a corrupt criminal justice system and a gulag filled with hopeless convicts there is no doubt. But abortion is not a victimless crime like drug use that should just be ignored. And just because the system is bad doesn’t mean that genuine acts of aggression should go unpunished. I am in favor of adding to prison anyone guilty of real crimes (assuming that prison should be the punishment) and removing from prison anyone not guilty of real crimes. And I should also add that abortion should not be a federal crime anymore than murder, rape, or robbery should be federal crimes. Most federal crimes (the ones that are really crimes, not the ones like taking unlicensed dentures across state lines) should not be federal crimes at all.

    Fifth, criminalizing abortion would not lead to a greater police state that increases the bureaucratic apparatus and violates privacy. The fact is, we already have a police state, and it’s not because murder, robbery, and other real crimes are prosecuted. If abortion were illegal, it would no more entail the government sticking its nose in doctors’ offices and women’s wombs than murder being illegal means that the government stations agents in every home, bar, and alley waiting for a murder to take place.

    Sixth, no pro-life libertarian believes in aggression to prevent possible or potential aggression. It would therefore not be okay to enslave a pregnant woman by forcing her “to carry an unwanted child to term” or put her “in a straitjacket in a padded cell and force feed her to keep her and her fetus healthy.” It would not be permissible to use “un-libertarian means” to stop abortion. It’s not the job of the government – whatever form it appears in – to prevent crime. A criminal act is not a criminal act until it is committed. Preventing abortion would be no different than preventing other crimes. The way to stop abortion is by persuading pregnant women to not undergo abortions or educating them sufficiently in the pro-life position before they get pregnant so they won’t consider abortion an option should they get pregnant. People so inclined to kill, rape, or rob should be persuaded not to kill, rape, or rob or be educated to the extent that they would never be so inclined.

    Seventh, although a fetus is a “parasite” in the sense that it lives inside, is dependent upon, and obtains nutriments from a host, I hasten to point out that a newborn baby is totally dependent upon someone to feed and take care of it as well. Even a six-month-old baby left to itself will soon die. Is it okay to just throw parasitical children in the trash with aborted babies? A child in the womb a week before birth is just as much a parasite as a child in the womb six months before birth. Are libertarians who advocate abortion on demand ready to allow the procedure at any time before birth in the name of consistency? And what about the gruesome practice of partial-birth abortion?

    Eighth, certainly it is equally true that no object should be forcibly inserted into one’s body and that one would be well within his rights to remove, not only an object inserted without consent, but any object consensually inserted. But we are talking about a child here, not a choice.

    When a woman engages in an activity the natural consequence of which is pregnancy, she is obligating herself to bring to term a completely separate individual with uniquely different DNA that didn’t choose to “invade” her body or “aggress” against her. To be consistent, pro-choice libertarians should limit their argument here to pregnancy in the case of rape, a very rare occurrence. But even in the case of pregnancy via rape, it is the result of the aggression of someone else that the woman is pregnant, not the child which has, through no fault of its own, been inserted into the woman’s body. If someone owned a ship and discovered a child on board that someone had stowed away, would he be well within his rights to throw the child overboard for being a trespasser? Should he not rather give the child up safely at the end of his voyage?

    And finally, based on everything I have said thus far, it should be obvious that if a pregnant woman doesn’t want to keep her baby – for whatever reason – then I see no other alternative for her than to have her baby and then give it up for adoption. If money is an issue, there are pro-life organizations that will care for women during their pregnancy.

    But I think pro-lifers have dropped the ball here. If pro-lifers would pay women with unwanted pregnancies to not abort their child, carry it to term, and give it up for adoption, they would do more to prevent abortions than they are doing now. But would not some women get pregnant just for the cash? Certainly, but there have always been and always will be women that will do unusual things for money. Even now some women have more children just to get increased welfare benefits.  But even if a small percentage of women become baby factories because they got paid to carry babies to term, it would still be better than having a million abortions every year which occurs now in the United States.  And since I mentioned adoption, let me also say that the state should get completely out of the adoption business and leave it entirely up to the free market.

    I have not undertaken here a systematic defense of the libertarian pro-life position. I have merely addressed the concerns of those who wrote me.

    One of the people who wrote me said that libertarians are pro-choice on everything. I see nothing libertarian about a woman choosing to kill her unborn child for getting in the way of her lifestyle.

    Copyright © 2012 by LewRockwell.com. Permission to reprint granted.

    The views expressed by the authors and editorial staff are not necessarily the views of
    Sophia Institute, Holy Spirit College, or the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts.

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    • Tisantir

      While it is good to lay down any argument against abortion, the NAP itself is unsound in that it does not discriminate individual acts from the collective acts i.e. it presumptively denies the State.

      Man either lives in a State of war or a state of law. The state of law may be called a State.  In State man have rights and a right is of nature of an argument. Man does no

    • Convert Journal

      “often a fertilized egg fails to implant in the lining of the uterus and is expelled during menstruation,”

      This argument to justify abortion comes up often and seems bizarre to me.  Failing to implant causes a natural death.  A 60 year-old  man having a heart attack is another but that does not justify killing 60 year-old men.

    • Pingback: A Pro-Life Libertarian Defense | Catholic Canada

    • Jackie

      While I lean more to the Libertarian side of politics and economics and war, I am definitely at odds with them when it comes to abortion. It is murder and should be handled as such. In regards to our prisons, the best fix for there would be to made drugs legal and release all prisoners who have been there for those offenses. Then I’m sure we would have room for those who kill babies. The biggest problem here is that once you legalize something, it is almost next to impossible to change it. 

    • Clement_W

      I have been thinking about Libertarianism ever since Ron Paul started running for President and has consistently had between 10% to 12% of support mostly from young people. The quote from Jesus “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and Give to God what is God’s” comes to mind side by side with St. Paul’s statement about “Believing in what you cannot see”. 

      To me, Libertarianism represents ‘Personal Responsibilty’; ‘Created in God’s own Image’; ‘ Do unto others what you would have done unto you”.

      Speaking for myself, my personal belief in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit with all my heart, with all my soul, all my mind and with all my strength and Love for my God prevents me from performing or encouraging any one from Abortion, Gay Marriage, Euthanasia, Murder, Adultery, Jealousy, Dishonesty and disrespect for my neighbor.

      If we, as a people and ‘Christians’ in particular, could really believe in God who we cannot see and believe in Jesus Christ who did become man and walked the earth, therefore seen by the eye-witnesses – the Apostles – AND surrounded by pictures and statues of Jesus Christ which WE CAN SEE, what Caesar does with regard to Abortion, Gay Marriage, Euthanasia etc. etc. would not be a problem at all!

      Why? Because we would be CHRISTIANS who believe in the Invisible God who loved us so much that He became Visible, a ‘Son of Man’ which he insisted on calling Himself! I think it was St. Francis of Assisi who said something to the effect ‘speak only when you absolutely have to.’

      I am a convinced Christian Libertarian who opposes outsourcing to Caesar what I am Responsible for and believe that we should take back care of the poor and defense of the oppressed including the defenseless, including unborn AND born babies. Amendments to the constitution after the Bill of Rights are examples of the ‘Outsourcing’ now enshrined in the Constitution.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/OK2XUE2552OFO4BU5I6Z4I72NI american

       I have to say your article is very flawed…logically, I mean how can your position be based on the bible for being anti-choice, when the bible supports:  abortion,  murder,  genocide,  slavery and rape?

      I mean,  have you read the bible?

      ‘”Just because God allows something to happen doesn’t mean he’s the cause of it”… and “As the author of life, God can take life anytime he chooses in any manner he chooses.”‘

      So logically, you have no problem worshiping this ancient, tyrannical deity created by ancient, unscientific-bigoted-animal-herding savages?

      By typical christian logic, you worship this god because he is good and a protector of the innocent, but you won’t mean this deity treating you and family like crap because HE CAN— when you can’t even prove this god is empirically real?

      anyways…

      1.  Awoman’s abortion has nothing to with you,  so your morality regarding her abortion is moot… this is reality, and the more we live in it — the better off we will be.

      2. Again, bible supports:  abortion,  murder,  genocide,  slavery and rape… and you can’t even prove this god is empirically real;  I suggest you learn the science of reproduction– and you will see why your morality is moot.

      “As a zygote, it invaded the
      woman’s uterus using its TROPHOBLAST cells, hijacked her immune system by using
      NEUROKININ B, HCG and INDOLEAMINE 2,
      3-DIOXYGENASE— so her body doesn’t kill it, and it can continue stealing her
      nutrients to survive, and causing her harm or potential death.”

      galerouth blogspot com

      3 -5. LEARN THE SCIENCE OF THE FETUS AND REPRODUCTION— the fetus is non-sentient being, a parasite to a woman’s body and doesn’t have a right to life… so why would aborting something that science classifies as a parasite, has no legal right to life and IS non-sentient being — be a crime?

      5-6.  ‘”pro-life libertarians should also support the criminalization of
      abortion just like they support the criminalization of other acts of
      aggression like murder and robbery”

      That doesn’t make any sense, you want abortion to be illegal and want those be who do abortions to be punished—but NOT the women who wanted and seeked the abortion, paid for the procedure, and went through the it?.

      DO you know anything about the US’ constitution?

      NO HUMAN ( that means the FETUS, too) has a right to life or any due
      process rights by the 14th amendment to use another human’s body or body
      parts AGAINST their will, civil and constitutional rights: that’s why
      you are not forced to donate your kidney—the human fetus is no
      exception; this is supported by the equal protection clause of the 14th
      amendment AND 13th amendment, which makes reproductive slavery aka viability: unconstitutional.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Protection_Clause

      YOUR POLICE STATE COP-OUT IS MOOT.

      7. yes, the human fetus is a parasite according to science, and yes — a newborn is dependent on another for survival, but is not inside a host; anyone can parent a newborn.

      why would you use that lame cop-out?

      8. ” But we are talking about a child here, not a choice.”

       that’s another cop-out by you, a fetus is not a child, a fetus is non-sentient being… a parasite, and you just eluded that a woman should be forced into keep her unwanted pregnancy against her will and legal, which is reproductive slavery.

      “When a woman engages in an activity the natural consequence of which is
      pregnancy, she is obligating herself to bring to term a completely
      separate individual with uniquely different DNA that didn’t choose to
      “invade” her body or “aggress” against her.”

      wrong, consensual sex=/= a legal, binding contract to an unwanted fetus to
      live… what world do you live in?

      You are not forced out of cancer treatment because you smoked for 30 years or because you are genetically predisposed to cancer,  how many cases does biology trump law?

      never with abortion.

      “it should be obvious that if a pregnant woman doesn’t want to keep her
      baby – for whatever reason – then I see no other alternative for her
      than to have her baby and then give it up for adoption.”

      her abortion is really none of your business.

      bye.

      • Briana

        Oh I’ll tell you what world we live in, you moron. We live in a world where men and women are allowed to **** around with whomever they want under this illusion that there are no consequences for doing the baby-making thing, when they know full well that they are lying to themselves. Do you REALLY want government policy to encourage this kind of irresponsibility, where men’s and women’s sexual licenses are worth more than an innocent human being’s life?

        Furthermore, what another person does IS another’s business if it involves harming someone else. So, by your foolish logic, we should have left Hitler and Hirohito alone to level Europe and the Pacific. Injustice to one group of people is an injustice to us all. Every life has dignity, from the time of conception to the point of natural death or else no one does. If you think otherwise, you arbitrarily have to choose who should live and who should die and you have to dehumanize the people you think would be better off dead to make it easier to end their lives. So I would like to ask you a question: What standards do YOU use to measure the worth of a human life?

        Third of all, there is no such thing as an unwanted child. There are more than two million people in this country who have already taken steps to adopt a child. So a baby’s biological parents might be unwilling or unable to care for their child, but there are about 2 and a half million other people who gladly would do that job for them.

        • Briana

          oh and this is the website where I got the adoption statistics from. Read it and weep.

          http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nsfg/abc_list_a.htm#adoption 

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/IE6THGGOHNABLDKMS3CXIH7EZI Mike

           Wow, PRO-LIFE-SCHIZOPHRENIC-FASCIST,  it’s reality check-time.

          Most of the time, sex if done correctly, has no consequences; but other people’s sex-lives ARE NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, as long as it is not RAPE — so find something else to worry about that you actually have some control over.

          WHY WOULD THE GOVERNMENT BE IN THE I-WANT-TO-CONTROL-YOUR-SEX-LIFE BUSINESS?

          What you feel is “irresponsibility” is just your opinion,  as in your legally- powerless opinion.

          “innocent human being’s life?” 

          REALLY? Prove that a zygote, embryo or fetus is truly INNOCENCE, when they are non-sentient and basically brain-dead beings, or stop using emotive words as an excuse to sound like you have a logical argument — because I know what an appeal to emotion fallacy is.

          “Furthermore, what another person does IS another’s business if it involves harming someone else.”

          REALLY? There is no such thing as a person according to SCIENCE, it’s a legal and philosophical concept only, so a fetus is not a person under the law nor by science…so your opinion about abortion is moot, again.

          “So, by your foolish logic, we should have left Hitler and Hirohito alone
          to level Europe and the Pacific. Injustice to one group of people is an
          injustice to us all.”

          REALLY, AGAIN? ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID?

          THEIR VICTIMS WASN’T SOME NON-SENTIENT BEINGS, WHAT SCIENCE PROVES AS A PARASITE, LIVING A IN A WOMAN’S BODY… WHO WANTS TO REMOVE THEM— AND CAN ACTUALLY CAUSE HER HARM OR POTENTIALLY KILL HER.

          “Every life has dignity, from the time of conception to the point of natural death or else no one does. ”

          Ok, so by your foolish logic: The woman has no dignity because you want to force her to stay pregnancy against her will and legal rights aka force her into reproductive slavery, which is UNCONSTITUTIONAL — just to keep a human parasite alive, that you will not be there for the pregnancy,  labor and delivery, and rising of the child for 18 years + college?

          I don’t think you are even a part of the green movement to clean the toxin out of our food, air and water — so make these fetuses ( that you so-called care about) smarter and healthier…

          and how many children from Africa have you saved from DYING?

          “If you think otherwise, you arbitrarily have to choose who should live
          and who should die and you have to dehumanize the people you think would
          be better off dead to make it easier to end their lives.”

          ABORTION ISN’T ARBITRARY:

          NO HUMAN ( that means the FETUS, too) has a right to life or any due
          process rights by the 14th amendment to use another human’s body or body
          parts AGAINST their will, civil and constitutional rights: that’s why
          you are not forced to donate your kidney—the human fetus is no
          exception; this is supported by the equal protection clause of the 14th
          amendment AND 13th amendment, which makes reproductive slavery aka viability: unconstitutional.

          “As a zygote, it invaded thewoman’s uterus using its TROPHOBLAST cells, hijacked her immune system by usingNEUROKININ B, HCG and INDOLEAMINE 2,3-DIOXYGENASE— so her body doesn’t kill it, and it can continue stealing hernutrients to survive, and causing her harm or potential death.”

          http://galerouth.blogspot.com/

          “So I would like to ask you a question: What standards do YOU use to measure the worth of a human life?”

          Now that an ARBITRARY question, since there worth is not intrinsic and it has nothing to do with abortion.

          a fetus=/= a child, and if the woman wants to abort, then the pregnancy is unwanted, duh.

          • Cord_Hamrick

            Mike,

            Respectfully, let me say: It’s up to you what you want to be, here.

            There are very intelligent, science-respecting persons who oppose your view, whose arguments you have not by any stretch refuted as of yet.

            Keep in mind that the original article is written as what debate-oriented folk might call a “First Affirmative Constructive”; it lays out a case but, for reasons of space and readers’ attention spans, does not immediately anticipate all possible objections and pre-emptively rebut them. In replying to a “First Affirmative Constructive,” it is the opposing side’s job to raise objections, of course, as you have done. But it would be silly to raise those objections in an ill-tempered and triumphalist tone as if they were obviously unanswered. For of course those in the Affirmative were aware of most or all of them already, and skipped answering them in their opening sally solely for lack of time. There is plenty of time in later rebuttals for that.

            Post in a fashion that sounds like shouting, as you have done here, and you’re liable to be labelled a troll and no one will think you capable of reasoned and respectful discourse. Why should they do the hard work of giving you an exhaustive and well-considered reply when you show few signs of meriting such effort?

            But approach this with a calm demeanor and well-reasoned, well-informed arguments, and you’ll win a hearing. So “tone-of-voice” matters. You must ask yourself: Are you here to convince, or just to vent spleen? The latter is trolling; the former is adult discourse.

            Allow me particularly to suggest you drop the following deadwood forms of argumentation, for the sake of improving your own credibility:

            1. The all caps thing really looks like shouting. If you want to emphasize, why not surround a word in HTML-style italics tags as everyone else does?

            2. I assume for the moment that “Mike” and “american” are the same user; the writing styles are markedly similar. If so, then Biblical literacy as Catholics see it is not your strong suit. A person who would say, “…the bible supports:  abortion,  murder,  genocide,  slavery and rape…” doesn’t know how to read ancient texts as literature. (Of course the authors of the various texts comprising the Bible report the existence of and even resignedly give advice for living with such things. They are writing as persons living in the ancient world as it was, not as we wish it would be.)

            On a related note, have you noticed that this is a Catholic site? Your accusation would fare best against, say, a KJV-only protestant fundamentalist of the unschooled variety who view the Bible as literalistically as possible. They would find that accusation of “supporting genocide” troubling on account of their dedication to literalism in defiance of observable genre. But Catholics are forbidden to do so; they are required to interpret the Bible with attention to genre and culture and according to several senses, starting from the “literal” (but not the “literalistic” sense), and covering various other senses (moral, allegorical, anagogical) through typology, prophetic and apocalyptic writing, and so on.

            This is why, for example, Catholics typically aren’t young earth creationists; to take that view seems to ignore the advice of St. Augustine on the matter, who shows us Catholics taking a less-literalistic view as early as 400 A.D., and in fact shows a certain disrespect for the poetical parallelism of the two creation texts.

            3. To use the term “fascist” is also not helpful to your credibility, and an invocation of Godwin’s Law is around the corner if you keep it up. Historically the term does not mean what you (apparently) think it means.

            Clean out that deadwood, and you’ll fare better. But I don’t mean to come across as issuing a command, of course: Just a suggestion. It’s up to you.

          • Xiopic

            “REALLY? Prove that a zygote, embryo or fetus is truly INNOCENCE, when
            they are non-sentient and basically brain-dead beings, or stop using
            emotive words as an excuse to sound like you have a logical argument —
            because I know what an appeal to emotion fallacy is.”

            So I guess we should just kill every brain dead or severely mentally retarded human being simply because he is, regardless of age, incapable of emotional or even basic thoughts? no. I disagree with you on every level.

            Science has shown us those parasites you have referred to, yes. Does that dehumanize them? Is a 6 month old child, completely dependent on motherly care, unworthy of life as well?

            as for your decree that humanity is a construct of society, I think you need to brush up on your reason and science, (ironic, considering how people like you so often consider people like us superstitious morons somehow ignorant of the notion of empirical thought) a person is what we call the grouping of cells that contains a unique combination of DNA. A person does have different stages of life yes, so I agree.

            a fetus =/= a child
            however, a child =/= a teenager
            likewise, a teenager =/= an adult

            simply stating that a person in the developmental stage of a fetus is not a child is just basic logic skewed in a rather unintelligent effort to bolster your decidedly unscientific and inhumane dogma.
            These cells which you have dehumanized, these individual living persons who simply are caught in the earliest stage of growth and development do not deserve to be marginalized and killed at the whims of society.

            Yes women have rights; nobody is denying that. But nobody has the right to take life away. Even the constitution supports that, i.e “the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.”

            You simply cannot justify killing an unborn human, a fetus, an embryo, a zygote, in the name of freedom, because in the very act of killing, you are stripping the freedom from a completely helpless human being, as worthy of life as you are.

      • Wlmitch1

        Spoken like a true hate-filled, Christophobic bigot.

        • http://profile.yahoo.com/IE6THGGOHNABLDKMS3CXIH7EZI Mike

          Wow, so I quess anyone using with science and logic,  counts as ” true hate-filled, Christophobic bigot” ?

          • Cord_Hamrick

             Mike: Had the person to whom Wlmitch1 replied used science or logic, all the relevant science and logic, and nothing but science and logic, then he’d have deserved no criticism.

            As it is, while I don’t know that Wlmitch1′s particular criticism is as accurate as it could be, “american’s” post is imminently criticizable even by those of us who reverence science and logic as honoring to the God who invented them.

      • Thomas

        saying “a zygote… invaded the woman’s uterus” is like saying cocaine invaded the user’s bloodstream. It is a natural consequence of consent.

    • LV

      For an expanded look at the libertarian pro-life case, Libertarians for Life (l4l.org) is a valuable resource.

      • Micha_Elyi

        Yes L4L.org is a valuable resource.  Libertarians for Life had refuted all the arguments that the pro-death libertarians have advanced for their position by the mid-1980s.

        But libertarians, despite their pride in “The Party of Principle”, are just as much a part of fallen humanity as anyone else. Thus, despite the fact that abortion or infanticide is a grotesque violation of libertarian principles, especially the Non-Agression Principle libertarians take such pride in, most people who call themselves libertarians are pro-abortion.  Their arguments (and I’ve studied Ayn Rand’s and Rothbard’s too!) boil down to the childish wail “but I waaaant it!”  There’s not a whit of an honest and consistent application of libertarian principle behind their pro-abortion demands.

        • Thomas

          yep – i love l4l.org

    • Al_Kilo

      Once I read a post that said: “abortion is about geography”

      The same can be said about the libertarian position. There are 4 geographical levels in this debate

      1) The State
      2) The mother
      3) The mother’s womb
      4) The distinct baby inside the mother’s womb

      One possible libertarian argument is that the State has only authority in relations between 1 and 2. Relations between 2, 3 and 4 are strictly the mother’s jurisdiction. Only the mother has authority over a baby in her womb. The State can not interfere with this maternal authority, even if she decides to exercise her own totalitarian and utilitarian rules, where she decides to terminate the life of the inhabitant of her body. It’s a bit like the argument (self-serving) that China and Russia are using regarding Syria. If there is an independent country, even if it has a bad dictator, other countries can not interfere.

      In other words, the baby, as the inhabitant of the mother’s body, is only subjected to the laws/rules that the mother decides over her domain, her geography, her jurisdiction. According to this logic, the State has no authority over the maternal domain/territory.

      In a banana republic like Honduras, or in a dictatorship, laws can be made to impose total sanctions on abortion. These don’t work very well, as women will still seek abortions. Plus this is unlikely to happen any time soon in countries like the USA or Europe, because of this fundamental conflict of State’s vs mother’s jurisdiction over who is in her womb. Can a democratic State regulate a human internal organ, because that organ is a shelter of another human? I would hope that in the future this conflict will be resolved, but this is unlikely for now.

      However, there is also a libertarian counter argument that goes like this. The baby in the womb and the mother are two separate entities, as supported by biology. Birth is just a moment in the development of a baby, like puberty will be later in life. So the baby in the womb, even if small, is a creature sharing space on the planet with the mother. Even if one takes a neutral position, it still becomes a relation of force between the mother and the child, as the mother decisions will always be unilateral. Thus the “right” of the mother to decide on a whim, to kill her child in utero, is in conflict with the right of the child to share space on the on the planet with her.

      So at the very least, parents that abide by their own totalitarian rules that deny the right to exist of their own children, should not impose these rules on the rest. This libertarian argument can be used to strike down Roe vs Wade, as well as the current HHS mandate. Why should the State impose that everybody subsidizes totalitarian rules devised by only some parents, where they self authorize themselves the destruction of their own children?

      So where does that leave the pro-life camp (and I am pro life)?

      It leaves us where Christ left us.

      This is why I think the author’s conclusions are 100% accurate. Private Catholic adoptions are key, as not to have strings attached to government funded adoption systems. This means that Catholic homes need to come out of their comfy gated communities and open their houses, by the millions. I think this would work, even without paying pregnant mothers. A lot of them are teens, and many teens have hearts. They are just brainwashed by prevailing trends.

      Abortion providers could be paid more for not performing abortions, by instead counseling for adoption. Let market forces work. Its like slaves that were bought to free them. Once a critical mass is reached, and babies saved from abortion grow up (there are 1.2 million abortion in the US alone, 40 million in the world per year), they will have a political voice.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7o5L3CaRU
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq-ZGktYWWA

      • Thomas

        Replace 3 with “3) A mother’s home” and she can now kill all her children. It is a weak argument.

    • Martial_Artist

      Mr. Vance,I, a person whose opinions most Americans would classify as libertarian (but not a Libertarian), agreed with your earlier article and I agree with the current one. And I am a libertarian because it is the only political philosophy that I believe is consistent with what the Church teaches. Having said that I would add a few points that you didn’t explicitly address.

      • Quite a few persons who are both pro-abortion and libertarian (or even Libertarian) hold at least one self-contradictory position with respect to the ontology of the unborn baby. Some of them believe that it is logically permissible that the mother has the right to terminate the life of the unborn baby, but that if the pregnant woman is the victim of a battery or homicide that also results in the death of the unborn infant, then the batterer should be subject to one charge of homicide or manslaughter for terminating the life of the unborn baby. Some hold the equally self-contradictory position that if the mother wants the unborn baby, it is an unborn baby, but if she doesn’t then it is a “fetus,” which latter term is nothing more than medical terminology for an unborn baby. The reason this is self-contradictory should be obvious, but I will state it for the benefit of those for whom it is not. The unborn baby exists within the mother’s womb. It is what it is, and no amount of wishing it to be something other than what it is will change its nature. No one of my acquaintance who holds a libertarian Catholic understanding would disagree with that analysis. Thus, anyone who is both commitedly pro-choice and is also committed to punishing an aggressor against the mother for concurrently taking the life of the unborn infant holds a rationally consistent position. Rather, they are engaged in self-deception, whether or not they are conscious of the fact, as to what is involved in abortion.

      • Those who argue that the unborn infant is a parasite, ignore the medical definition of that latter term, to wit [emphasis mine] “An organism that lives in or with another organism, called the host, in
      parasitism, a type of association characterized by the parasite obtaining
      benefits from the host, such as food, and the host being injured as a result.” With respect to anyone who has misused that term, point not even remotely proven. And as charitable advice I would recommend that anyone thinking in those terms needs to work on their understanding of the terms they use. Words convey meaning and ideas, and ideas have consequences. Those who use language loosely should take care how they state their arguments as they may well end up being used against them in a seemingly unrelated context.

      As a gentle corrective to two propositions you wrote, I would also add that, as I understand the Church’s teaching, God loves us and does not ordinarily take life nor cause evil to befall us, although he does allow evil to occur. You, perhaps inadvertently, seemed to imply the contrary in stating “God can take life anytime he chooses in any manner he chooses” as opposed to God can allow life to be taken….

      Pax et bonum,
      Keith Töpfer

    • Gamartin

      Abortion is always wrong.  It is the killing of human life.  When you think about it, it is contrary to every natural instinct of humanity.  So it is not a political issue that should attach itself to one political party or another.  It is a moral issue that can only be addressed within the realm of religion.  For me, well, Christ is King and we are all part of His Kingdom.  Even the temporary, secular governments should bend their knee.  So, all should use the 10 Commandments as a guide to what is right, in conscience.

    • Gamartin

      I know true evolutionists have to be against abortion.   Killing the baby in the womb violates the rules of natural selection.  Like homosexuality where there is no propriation of human life, the principles of evolution are impossible.   It is for this reason, all evolutionists should be pro-life and for marriage between a man and a woman.   There is no exception to his if they are advocates of evolution.  Sorry.

      Ironically, God will do His form of “natural selection” for all new arrivals at the gates of Heaven.  

      • Al_Kilo

        That is literary what is happening right now. For millennia, about 5-20% of children died before becoming adults, usually from infectious causes. This molded us into to who we are. Now 20-30% of children that are killed by parents in utero. With 1 billion deaths and counting, or equivalent to 14% of the entire current world population, abortion is the single greatest cause of death in human history. 40 million deaths of children from abortions per year far surpass the 60-70 million deaths during 5 years of WW2, or malaria with 1 million deaths per year. Humans will pay for this.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7o5L3CaRU
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq-ZGktYWWA

    • Al_Kilo

      However, there is also a libertarian counter argument that goes like this. The baby in the womb and the mother are two separate entities, as supported by biology. Birth is just a moment in the development of a baby, like puberty will be later in life. So the baby in the womb, even if small, is a creature sharing space on the planet with the mother. Even if one takes a neutral position, it still becomes a relation of force between the mother and the child, as the mother decisions will always be unilateral. Thus the “right” of the mother to decide on a whim, to kill her child in utero, is in conflict with the right of the child to share space on the on the planet with her.

      So at the very least, parents that abide by their own totalitarian rules that deny the right to exist of their own children, should not impose these rules on the rest. This libertarian argument can be used to strike down Roe vs Wade, as well as the current HHS mandate. Why should the State impose that everybody subsidizes totalitarian rules devised by only some parents, that authorize themselves to destroy their own children?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID7o5L...
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mq-ZGk...

    • Mark Rutledge

      It seems to me that any libertarian worth his salt would still be aghast at the raw abuse of judicial power displayed in the Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton SC decisions.  If libertarians do not, or will not, steadfastly oppose oligarchy then are they really libertarians? 

      • Martial_Artist

        Mark Rutledge,
        My answer to your query is such as they are most definitely NOT consistently libertarian.