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  • The Two Lists

    by Jennifer Fulwiler

     

    Of all the things I remember about the Texas
    March for Life in Austin last January, the memory that stands out the most is the look on the faces of the counter-protesters who followed us along Congress Avenue and down to the capitol that frosty morning. When I glanced over to see the source of the epithets that were being screamed at us, I met the eyes of one young woman wearing a black bandana over the bottom half of her face. She happened to look over and meet my gaze, and in her eyes I saw one thing: hatred.
     
    I was caught off guard when my gut response to her rage-filled glare was one of sympathy. In fact, I realized as she turned away to continue yelling angry pro-choice slogans that I knew the source of the rage behind her eyes and had even felt it recently.
     


    Until a couple of years ago, I was militantly pro-choice. When I heard people make anti-abortion statements, it filled me with a white-hot anger that I could barely contain. Behind my views was a buried but unspoken sense that there was something inherently unfair about being a woman, and abortion was a key to maintaining any semblance of a level playing field in the world.
     
    My peers and I were taught not that sex creates babies, but that unprotected sex creates babies. We absorbed through cultural osmosis the idea that every normal person will have sex at some point in his or her life, and that the sexual act, by default, has no significance outside the relationship between the two people involved. In this worldview, when unexpected pregnancies came up, it was seen as a sort of betrayal by the woman’s body. My friends and I lamented the awful position every woman was in: Unexpected pregnancies were like lightning strikes, and when one of these unpredictable events did occur, there were no good options for dealing with them. Abortion wasn’t ideal — even we acknowledged that it was a violating procedure that was hard on a woman’s body — but what choice did anyone have? To not have the option of terminating surprise pregnancies when they came up out of nowhere would mean being a slave to one’s biology.
     
    My staunch support of these views did not soften until a few years ago, when a religious conversion after a life of atheism led me to the Catholic Church. I began researching the ancient Judeo-Christian understanding of human sexuality, in which the sexual act is seen as being inextricably entwined with its potential for creating new human life. The more I considered this point of view, the more I questioned my long-held views. In fact, I started to see the catastrophic mistake our society had made when we started believing that the life-giving potential of the sexual act could be safely forgotten about as long as people use contraception. It would be like saying that guns could be used as toys as long as long as there are blanks in the chamber. Teaching people to use something with tremendous power nonchalantly, as a casual plaything, had set women up for disaster.
     
    The gravity of this error became clear to me when I came across research that Time magazine published in 2007, citing data from the Guttmacher Institute that showed the most common reasons women have abortions. It immediately struck me that none of the factors on the list — not feeling capable of parenting, not being able to afford a baby, not being in a relationship stable enough to raise a child — were conditions that we encourage women to consider before engaging in sexual activity.
     
     
    It was then that I could finally articulate the source of the anger I’d felt all these years. In every society, there are two critical lists: acceptable conditions for having a baby, and acceptable conditions for having sex. From time immemorial, the one thing that almost every society had in common is that their two lists matched up. It was only with the widespread acceptance of contraception in the middle of the 20th century, creating an upheaval in the public psyche in which sex and babies no longer went hand-in-hand, that the two lists began to diverge. And now, in 21st-century America, they look something like this:
     
    Conditions under which it is acceptable to have sex:
    • If you’re in a stable relationship
    • If you feel emotionally ready
    • If you’re free of sexually transmitted diseases
    • If you have access to contraception
    Conditions under which it is acceptable to have a baby:
    • If you can afford it
    • If you’ve finished your education
    • If you feel emotionally ready to parent a child
    • If your partner would make a good parent
    • If you’re ready for all the lifestyle changes that would be involved with parenthood
    As long as those two lists do not match, we will live in a culture where abortion is common and where women are at war with their own bodies.
     
    Considering the disparity between the two lists made me begin to see the level of damage that contraception and the mentality it produces have done to women as individuals and as a group. I thought of the several friends whom I’d helped procure abortions, how each was scared and caught off guard, overwhelmed with a feeling of “I never signed up for a pregnancy,” angry at a faceless enemy. They had followed all of society’s rules, yet still ended up in a gut-wrenching position. We hated the anti-abortion zealots because we thought they tried to take away women’s freedom; what we didn’t understand is that women’s freedom had already been taken, when society bought the lie that sex is primarily about bonding and pleasure, and that its life-giving potential is tangential and optional.
     
    In an article published by the Guttmacher Institute’s Family Planning Perspectives, John A. Ross estimates that a woman using contraception with a 1 percent risk of failure has a 70 percent chance of experiencing an unwanted pregnancy over the course of 10 years. Guttmacher also reports that more than half of women seeking abortions were using a contraceptive method when they got pregnant. As soon as we as a society accepted contraception, a large-scale game of Russian roulette began, with women and their unexpected children as the players with the guns to their heads.
     
    Austin’s March for Life was this past Saturday; I wonder if the girl with the black bandana was there again this year. I wish I could offer to buy her a cup of coffee and tell her that I think she’s right to sense that something deeply unfair is afoot in our society, and that nothing less than women’s freedom is at stake.
     


    Jennifer Fulwiler is the author of
    ConversionDiary.com, where she writes about her experiences with Catholicism after a life of atheism.
    The views expressed by the authors and editorial staff are not necessarily the views of
    Sophia Institute, Holy Spirit College, or the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts.

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    • John

      Jennifer is one of the bright lights in the Church today, and I think we’ll be hearing a lot more from her in the future. Her excellent blog is found at http://www.conversiondiary.com. She’s currently writing a book about her conversion.

    • Christine

      Thank you for writing such an insightful article. I think it helps all of us pro-lifers remember that we need to love the person who hates us- you never know when they may see the light. With Christ there is always Hope!

      I also wanted to let you know that the statistics for women on birth control are staggering. As normally used by women, the birth control pill has an 18% failure rate, not a 1% failure rate.

      Most other contraceptives also have an approximately 20% failure rate when you look at actual use.

      This failure rate is akin to taking one bullet out of a six shooter and firing away. Nobody likes to talk about failure rates with actual use, because when it is put into its true perspective, birth control is not very effective.

      I could see how many women are angry. You are correct about the fact that their anger is misplaced. They have been sold a lie.

    • Ryan

      This is a beautiful article, and your personal experience can help illuminate the mindset behind the pro-choice movement for many of us.

      That said, I do not have much hope that people are going to be converted to the pro-life cause through arguments like the ones you offer. I suspect that most people today, even many who might have qualms about abortion, are simply going to dismiss out of hand the argument that sex and procreation can never be separated – and are unlikely to take anything you say very seriously after you have made it.

      In fact, I would go so far as to say that most pro-choicers regard the linkage of sex and reproduction as part and parcel of women’s oppression in the past. That is precisely why they hate us – because, as far as they are concerned, we want to return society to a time when women had no personal autonomy and were slaves to their fertility. So making arguments about the inextricable bond between sexual activity and the creation of new life probably aren’t going to get us very far.

    • Deacon Frank Osgood

      Jennifer,

      Reading your article gave rise to a real AH HA moment for me. Your analysis of the root of the anger you experienced from the pro-abortion spectator made real sense. I often insert pro-life elements into my homilies whenever it is appropriate to the Gospel of the day, but as a man, have not been able to understand the source of the deeply angry responses I sometimes get from the few pro-abortion Catholics who attend Mass. Your article will help me respond more effectively. Thank you.

    • Mary

      . . .to point out that the sexual revolution was about putting women at war with their own bodies. I bought into this mentalitiy for years and used the Pill, all the while living in fear that my body would betray me and I’d be stuck with an unwanted pregnancy. Because I have always been totally against abortion, I used to play scenarios through my mind, trying to imagine telling my parents, giving a baby up for adoption, or having a baby out of wedlock. I would sometimes be sick with fear. But I didn’t understand that pregnancy would be the natural outcome of the act I felt I was entitled to engage in on my own terms. I thought that I should be able to play by the rules (i.e., use a “reliable” contraceptive) and be okay. But there was that rebellious body and its damnable fertility, always lurking, waiting to mess everything up for me.

      It is hard to articulate just how damaging this mindset is. I saw my own body as my enemy. This is a deeply embedded reality for many, many women and, yes, it is the root cause of the terrible anger that so many women feel toward those who are pro-life. But, don’t give up and think that women won’t listen to the truth. I did, and I am so grateful to God that there were people in my life who kept telling me the truth, even when I was hostile toward them. I finally came to embrace that truth, throw the contraceptives away, and start to live the life that God had created me for. When Christ says that the Truth will set us free, He wasn’t just coining a catchy phrase. I am now free to embrace my whole self – fertility included – and I thank God for that.

    • Roxane B. Salonen

      Jennifer,

      This is so insightful, and done in a way that only one who has truly lived the mentality of the other side can offer. Thanks so much for letting us into this mindset through giving this broad-range view. If the pro-abortion side could see into our hearts as you have been able to see into theirs, perhaps we could actually move forward with the beautiful gift of life.

      Thanks, as always!

      Roxane

    • georgie-ann

      it’s very painful to contemplate the damage done to the “humanity” of women by the intentionally misleading “bill of goods” that they’ve been sold,…especially when you imagine the numbers: each and every one a painful story, even if they don’t yet realize it,..my heart breaks for them,…

      i’m old enough to have memories of a better time,…of a wholesome life collectively to be lived and enjoyed,…we’ve actually “tasted” what this is like,…we have memories/experiences, and know that it is not only a REAL choice, but a much better choice,…

      some of these young women have never known the simplicity and joy of being able to accept with gladness, the “natural” and God-given gift of who we are,…happiness comes from being in harmony with oneself and one’s Maker,…

    • Matthew Warner

      Excellent. The “two-lists” are very insightful. Thank you for your honesty and story.

    • Rachel

      Jennifer,

      I thought your post brings sexuality into a new light, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness towards the subject. One thing that really concerns me though, is that in today’s society, meeting the requirements of your second list (ready for parenthood) often does not happen until people are in their late 20s or 30s, meaning that in many cases sexual activity would be delayed sometimes a decade or more until a person has completed their education, become financially stable, found a marriage partner, etc. How realistic is it to go through the teens and 20s completely abstaining from sexual activity until all conditions are met for being ready to be a parent?

      I certainly don’t think abortion is the answer to this question, and would love to believe that abstinence is the answer. However, in the world we live in, with young people affronted by sexuality at every turn, and the reality that marriage is often delayed until education is completed, what is the practical answer for young people who truly wish to follow God’s design for sexuality yet struggle with facing years of abstinence?

    • Kamilla

      Excellent article! The opening lines of the fourth paragraph reminded me of something Tony Esolen wrote last year over at MereComments:

      “Except in the case of rape, there are no “unintended pregnancies,” none. There are plenty of women who do not want to be pregnant, and plenty of men who do not want them to be pregnant, but in all those cases the pregnancies are the results of intentional actions that have pregnancy as their perfectly natural and perfectly predictable consequence. Contraception does not change the nature of the act itself; indeed, it makes the actors more keenly aware that they are doing what makes babies, since otherwise they would not go so far out of their way (donning or inserting into the body uncomfortable devices, or flooding the system with pregnancy-mimicking hormones) to thwart the body’s natural functions. The “problem” in the case of Sexual Roulette is not that the body fails, but that it succeeds.”

      Kamilla

    • Jennifer Fulwiler

      Thank you for all your comments! I’m short on time but will try to address some of the questions:

      Ryan:

      In fact, I would go so far as to say that most pro-choicers regard the linkage of sex and reproduction as part and parcel of women’s oppression in the past. That is precisely why they hate us – because, as far as they are concerned, we want to return society to a time when women had no personal autonomy and were slaves to their fertility.

      Absolutely. I think that’s a great articulation of what you see in a lot of circles these days. But I think that the missing piece there is that women are only slaves to their fertility if sex is seen as a given. To the extent that you have autonomy over the choice of whether or not you have sex in the first place, you are not a slave to your fertility. The idea of periodic abstinence is nothing short of horrific to a lot of segments of society, but accepting that is key to women being able to accept their fertility.

      (By the way, I ended up having a chat about this very idea to some of the angry counter-protesters at this year’s March for Life last weekend, and it yielded some interesting results. I plan to blog about it soon.)

      Rachel –

      However, in the world we live in, with young people affronted by sexuality at every turn, and the reality that marriage is often delayed until education is completed, what is the practical answer for young people who truly wish to follow God’s design for sexuality yet struggle with facing years of abstinence?

      This is definitely something that should be discussed more. I think that part of the problem is that the standards for when it’s OK to have kids are set unnecessarily high (e.g. I knew a couple who wouldn’t even consider having their first child until they had most of the cost of a college education in savings).

      Also, I think that most people could be good parents sooner than they think. Now that I’m in Catholic circles, almost all of our friends got married either in their senior years of college or shortly after. They report that waiting that long (to age 21-22) was challenging but doable. Some used NFP to delay pregnancy once they were married, though many had kids right away. It seems to have worked out very well. My husband and I are impressed by what healthy, fun marriages and families they seem to have.

      Thanks again to everyone who has commented!

    • Brantly Millegan

      Wow. Incredible piece. You totally nail it. Keep preachin’ the truth.

    • to Rachel

      Rachel,

      I think you make an excellent point that fidelity to a single lifetime partner is tremendously difficult. But not only in the teens or twenties, but for an entire lifetime, no?
      I have always felt that if the Catholic Church is going to teach that abortion is always and only wrong and sexual infidelity is always and only wrong, that they must teach that it is so for everyone. The Church needs to be 100% consistent. If there were any allowance for exceptions, it would be like saying, “fidelity is the ideal for some superior persons, but you can settle for less.”
      If the belief behind the teaching is that true fulfillment is to be found through abiding by the most demanding of principles, then it can’t leave anyone out or the Church would be denying them their right to happiness.

    • L.

      I am a Catholic who made exactly the opposite transition you did — I was once angrily pro-life. How dare people kill those innocent babies inside their mother’s bodies! When I was 15, I suddenly realized that there were situations in which I myself would have an abortion, and stopped seeing it as a black-and-white divisive issue. I became compassionately pro-choice, though I do understand why not everyone is going to see it that way, or agree with my views. (I also believe that another pregnancy would be very much like declaring war on my body — I view my contraception as an instrument of peace.)

      I think the only time I get truly angry is when people call me “baby killer” or “murderer” – I admit, that doesn’t always bring out the best in me.

      I understand my views mean I can’t be in full communion with my Church, but that’s okay — last I checked, my Church was about much more than abortion and contraception, and it still welcomed those who respectfully disagreed.

    • Bender
    • Marie

      I’ve never had a problem understanding the pro-life side of the debate, since one of God’s Commandments is “Thou shalt not kill.” I don’t see how any Christian can debate God on this.

    • MariaP

      This is the best prolife article i have read in a long time. The anger comes from the disconnect between what they believe and reality. As you say- the lists have to match.
      They have been taught to believe that the Pill levels the biological playing field. This is a lie.The biology remains the same, but now the safeguards to a woman’s heart, and soul, have been stripped away. They are laid bare and told that their abuse is their liberation. A wicked lie indeed.

    • Kathleen

      This is a beautiful article, and your personal experience can help illuminate the mindset behind the pro-choice movement for many of us.

      In response to Ryan–I would say that no, these arguments are not going to convert the secular world, but even to make the connection between Point A and Point B for Catholics who contracept would be a huge success. I truly believe that abortion *is* because contraception *is*. And that the failure to address the linkage between them–part and parcel of the dual “meaning” (which is as much biological as it is a religious tenet) of sex–is what has made the prolife movement so abysmally ineffective.

    • Monica

      Jennifer, great to see you here at InsideCatholic! Your article reminds me of a section from Fulton Sheen’s “The World’s First Love”.
      He writes: “What most human love forgets is that love implies responsibilitiy; one may not fool with the levers of the heart in the vain hope of escaping duties, fidelity, and sacrifice for the beloved. So-called birth control, which assists in neither birth nor control, is based on the philosophy that love is without obligations. The real problem is how to make humans realize the sacredness of love–how to induce mothers to see a Messiaship in the begetting of children. The best way to achieve this would surely be to bring forward the example of a woman who would accept the responsibilities of love without the prepayment of pleasure–one who would say: “I will do it all for nothing! I will accept the bearing of a child, the responsibility of His education, a share in His world mission”, without even asking for the ecstasies of the flesh. Such is the role of the Blessed Mother. She undertook marriage, birth, a share in the Agony, all for the love of God, not asking the initial joys to prepare her for those trials. The best way to convince mankind that it must take the medicine that cures is to take it oneself and without the sugar coating, yet never wince because of its bitterness.”

    • George

      For L: “Your” body is meant to be a temple of the Holy Spirit. It is a gift from God. When you abuse it, you make it (and your soul) uninhabitable by God. You lose sanctifying grace. And you start finding it hard to think straight and face the truth. That’s why you imagine that you are in some kind of partial communion with the Catholic Church. Once you start picking and choosing what Catholic teaching on faith and morals you will accept, you lose all communion. The Faith is not had in parts. The act of Faith is whole, integral, otherwise it is not divine Faith. Your post is filled with the first person personal pronoun. Even “my” contraception and “my Church.” I hope that you re-read Jennifer’s article. And reflect on it dispassionately and put aside the “I” and “my” and thank God for the gift of life and for the body He gave you. It’s not owned by you. He wants it back. He wants to glorify you after the resurrection, body and soul. Then you will be perfected in the Mystical Body of Christ. Outside of Him your body is nothing, destined for the grave, dust. At the last day, where do want “your” body to go when Christ calls it forth and your soul returns to it?

    • georgie-ann

      James 4
      Submit Yourselves to God
      1″What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don’t get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

      4…Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God…6..That is why Scripture says:
      “God opposes the proud
      but gives grace to the humble.”

      7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Come near to God and he will come near to you….9..purify your hearts, you double-minded….10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.”

      it is hard to find the “will of God” for one’s life, while following &/or compromising with “the ways of the world,”…these compromises blur our vision, and we are on the path of making many rationalizations to justify each and every thing that we do,…after awhile, we don’t realize how blind we have become, but what we will “reap” will contain much of the fall-out and problems endemic to the world’s way of doing things,…

      you’ll know when you start making decisions that simplify and clarify your life,…when you become protective of your personal space, valuing what God has made,…refusing to surrender to the domination of the moods and whims of others,…it is only in this way that we can find our personal path, and find what God’s will for us–personally–really is,…if we “make a space” for Him (Who made us), He can reveal Himself and His will/path for us,…otherwise we’re all mixed-in with the “noise” and static and distractions and false “reasonings” of the world,…and we usually end up on false paths as well,…

      just because the human mind can “conceive” a rationalized idea, that doesn’t necessarily make it sensible, healthy, true, or Godly,…

      recommended: quiet “listening” to God,…scripture reading,…study the lives of the Saints,…then see if you feel the same about some of those “worldly ideas,”…

    • Sarah

      Full disclosure: I was raised Catholic, but turned from the church, religion and the concept of “god” long ago. I believe that humans have free will, and do not need religion nor the threat of eternal damnation to be kind and good.
      I believe that a woman should be free to determine what happens to her own body. I believe that sex is both for the creation of children AND for pleasure.

      I do not think that pleasure is bad.

      I am a responsible adult in a 9-year relationship. We have not decided whether we want children, so we use contraception. We also believe there are far too many people in this world, and perhaps not having children isn’t a bad idea. I believe that not using contraception is extremely irresponsible. However, I very strongly believe that abortion should be safe and accessible.

      But that’s just me. Why am I posting here? Knowing that you’ll never change my mind and I’ll never change yours? Because I understand why someone would be anti-abortion, I really do. But I also know that an anti-abortion stance doesn’t feel right to me, right as it may be for you.

      This post is generally quite well-written, but I disagree with the characterization of abortion rights supporters as angry and hateful. We all know there are angry, hateful and even violent people on both sides. I believe that the majority of people on both sides of the issue really, truly have the best interests of people at heart. Those on one side want to protect children: a commendable goal. Those on the other side want to protect women by ensuring that an unpleasant procedure is safe and accessible, and I believe that is a commendable goal as well.

      Thanks for listening.

    • Kevin in Texas

      Jennifer,

      I thought your post brings sexuality into a new light, and I appreciate your thoughtfulness towards the subject. One thing that really concerns me though, is that in today’s society, meeting the requirements of your second list (ready for parenthood) often does not happen until people are in their late 20s or 30s, meaning that in many cases sexual activity would be delayed sometimes a decade or more until a person has completed their education, become financially stable, found a marriage partner, etc. How realistic is it to go through the teens and 20s completely abstaining from sexual activity until all conditions are met for being ready to be a parent?

      I certainly don’t think abortion is the answer to this question, and would love to believe that abstinence is the answer. However, in the world we live in, with young people affronted by sexuality at every turn, and the reality that marriage is often delayed until education is completed, what is the practical answer for young people who truly wish to follow God’s design for sexuality yet struggle with facing years of abstinence?

      Hi Rachel,

      I can’t speak for Jennifer, but in my opinion you’ve touched on some very key issues confronting young Christian adults in the western world nowadays. I don’t think you’re hinting at premarital sex w/ contraception as a potential solution, but it’s pretty clear that any such proposal would be not only gravely immoral, but also potentially damaging biologically and psychologically to any young couple, even if they are already engaged or at least considering marriage.

      To my mind, the way that the West “problematizes” this issue is the real problem. It’s not so much that young people must BE financially stable, professionally well-entrenched, highly educated, and completely independent from their families before they consider marriage and children, but rather that modern American culture says that they must be and have all of these things independently first. You’re right that it means many young adults don’t marry until well into their 30s, and that is the real problem because our social customs and expectations (often mostly secular, but strongly embedded even in the most faithful Christian young peoples’ minds) stigmatize young people who decide to marry young and while perhaps still not 100% stable in all of the ways you listed. But look back at the past few generations and their statuses when they married. My parents and grandparents all married at ages between 19 and 21, and although my parents did divorce in their 30s, the grandparents remained married for life, as do many young couples who enter marriage, even young, with the right mindset that marriage is a sacred promise and a covenant between two people bound together by God, and that they must fight for their marriage even in rough times.

      I’ve taught high school and especially college students for the past 9 years, and I can assure you that a huge majority of these kids (young adults themselves at ages 19 or 20) are often narcissistic and immature to the point of causing me great frustration in dealing with them. I can imagine myself why they wouldn’t or shouldn’t be marriage material at these young ages, but then again, that’s just perpetuating the problem. Our “young adults” are just physically mature kids in terms of their mental and emotional maturity, and much of what our society values and markets encourages this perpetual adolescence, also strongly marked and damaged by frequent “hook-up” culture and “friends w/ benefits”, both practices which insure that young adults will push away real notions of commitment and love until they are much older.

      It’s a self-perpetuating problem, and one that we as committed Christians could do much to remedy by changing the way we interact w/ the wider culture. For example, we can encourage our college-aged children to start considering marriage very soon, even if they haven’t reached that level of independence yet that you mentioned. Families can be more united in supporting their young adult children financially, emotionally, and morally, which in turn may encourage these young people to make lifelong marriage commitments even in their early 20s, and to strengthen their marriages through mutual struggles and growth over time as they fight together to establish themselves and their families. This is how things used to be done in generations past, but our modern culture constantly pushes to infantilize young adults and help them avoid responsibility. In turn, this promotes both the contraceptive and abortion mentalities that we so rightly decry and fight against as Christians.

      In the meantime, it’s important to realize that it is 100% possible to remain chaste as a young adult Catholic who hasn’t yet married, even into one’s 30s! Is it easy? Heck no! But I know dozens of young adult Christians of this age who are living chastely and happily, and their future marriages will be all the better for it.

    • Potamiaena

      Thanks for your great insight. I always thought the hatred was evil manifested.

    • Sherry

      Excellent piece. The two lists are particularly fine.

    • Katie

      Great article, as always. I’m also a former atheist and pro-choicer, so I can identify a lot.

    • Todd

      Wow. that was one of the most prescient things I’ve ever read. This is truth and it needs to be repeated and spread.

    • Jess

      Awesome. Great article.

    • S. Burton

      Kevin,

      You state that we forty- and fifty-somethings could be more financially supportive of our twenty-somethings in order to allow them to marry at the ages our own parents and grandparents did. The problem with this is that many of us are already supporting those same parents and grandparents as well as our young adult offspring. Taking on even a portion of the financial responsibility for a son or daughter-in-law and a baby is often not possible.

      It’s not just that contemporary culture prolongs the rite of passage from childhood to adulthood, it’s that medicine/pharmacology now prolong our lives — and prolongs them at very great expense.

      Realizing some kind of financial stability before marrying and becoming parents isn’t really as shallow and narcissistic as you’re implying. Yes, people married younger and forged strong relationships through shared struggles in generations past, but those same people probably weren’t also picking up the tab for their parents’ astronomical end-of-life healthcare costs on top of the usual marital and parental struggles.

      It’s just not as simple as hearkening back to the days of yore when people married in their late teens. We have to be practical about the very real financial burdens we’re all going to face over the course of our near one hundred year lifespans.

    • Bob Foster

      I think the situation is even more dire than that. In modern American society the two lists actually look more like this —

      Conditions under which it is acceptable to have sex:

    • Tara in B.C.

      I am 28 and had my first child at 24 (barely 24 at that!). I was not married, had an unstable and “fancy-free” life, and was terribly surprised to find that sex = babies. Apparently a university education undid what I had learned in high school biology class!

      My boyfriend and I had both been raised Catholic and so our immediate thought was “Oh dear; we had better make this work.” Skip forward several years and we are married, best friends, homeowners, with two children and upwards of $10k in the bank and still quickly saving for a larger house (we figure there will be more kids coming). I am a stay-at-home mom supplementing our income by doing dcaycare for two other children.

      The idea that you have to have all your ducks in a row *before* you have children is just not true. If you have any sense you can do it as you go. Marriage first is HUGELY important, because single parents are at an enormous disadvantage, and life would be much more difficult for me if God had not shown me such abundant mercy in making the father of my child my soul mate and husband. He should have been those things before we ever had sex, but how was I to know that? The Pill cures all, right?

      Why is it that, nowadays, we can only learn the enormous import of sex through becoming pregnant? And why do we fear children so much that we need to have our lives half-lived already before we are willing to accept the gift of a new life?

      I used to know the answers to those questions, but I don’t anymore.

    • S. Burton

      Tara, I don’t think you have to have all your ducks in a row before you marry and start a family, but I believe young people should be prudent and understand the responsibility they’re taking on for the next several decades of their lives.

      I think young people today see the financial vise their parents are often caught in, and what may appear a frivolous, Peter-Pannish approach to growing up could be a superficial manifestation of a deeper understanding that being fifty and having the financial responsibility for several young adults as well as several elder adults is an ultimately impossible endeavor.

      There’s a tremendous amount of real fear and real guilt felt by all — by the elder parents, by the adult kids who need help with medical insurance or rent because of the economy into which they came of age, by us because we don’t want to put our kids into the same vise years down the line.

      These young adults see all this. They know that $10k in the bank doesn’t even cover a couple of months of elder care, much less the bills from a medical catastrophe.

      I don’t think they’re all being selfish and frivolous. I think they’re scared, and I don’t blame them for not wanting to sign on for this right without some sense of security.

    • KJW

      With all due respect, all I can think about when I read this:

      “When I was 15, I suddenly realized that there were situations in which I myself would have an abortion, and stopped seeing it as a black-and-white divisive issue. I became compassionately pro-choice, though I do understand why not everyone is going to see it that way, or agree with my views. (I also believe that another pregnancy would be very much like declaring war on my body — I view my contraception as an instrument of peace.)”

      is the scene from the movie “A Man For All Seasons” where Sir Thomas More’s son-in-law is arguing with him about the law and justice. Sir Thomas describes the country as being forested with laws; when questioned, his son-in-law says he would cut down every law in pursuit of the devil. What the sort of argument I quoted above says to me is that, in order to allow for the legal abortion of the “undesirable” babies, we must legally allow for the killing of all babies regardless of circumstance.
      To further follow Sir Thomas’ argument, when you have cut down all the laws respecting human life, where will you hide if/when society decides that you have, for whatever reason, become an undesirable member of society?

    • Sarah

      ok fine but here’s the things your list forgets.

      What if the woman has been raped?
      does anyone expect seriously a woman to go ahead with one of the single most beautiful things that has started off with violations?
      why should ANY child of ANYONE be brought into this world out of force even if the woman choose to go ahead or adopt what about the child?

      What if for all the best will in the world your stable relationship fails?

      I have known things t turn out not quite right
      from violence that emerges years into a partnership
      to gambling drinking etc
      to even having another life.

      Have any one of you ever had the deep deep sadness of looking down at a test and thinking so despondent at a positive result suicidal thoughts overcome you?
      no.

      We have the choice abortion does not make us promiscuous there are plenty of reasons how and why a suprise pregnancy comes about
      whilst I think lack of money is a poor excuse to abort it is a valid one facing society not just young girls either.

      Would anyone really wish a life of poverty and distress on a child?
      would you really stone the woman who has 3 other kids she’s just about managing to keep? really persecute her?
      yea because you’ve never had to deal with that.
      all very well the church will help what happens when people don’t want handouts to be known s the poor family?

      All very well don’t have sex fine yes 16 18 whatever keep your self to yourself.
      but a married couple? sex is a normal part of a marriage it’s an expression of love a desire we feel and it’s very naive to imagine that a couple shouldn’t have sex because he’s just lost his job.

      I don’t expect anyone to start being pro choice but it’d be really nice to see some acceptance that in lots of cases it’s NEVER an easy choice it;s not something anyone does with an easy heart it’s yet another sign of love for one’s unborn child and a sign of some respect for the future to make it better brighter for the time when it is right.

    • Janet

      I did not get married until I was 30 and I did not have sex until my wedding night (and boy was it worth waiting for!). I think we sell young people short by assuming that it is impossible for them to be abstinent until they are that age. I have many friends who did the same as me.

    • L.

      A common misconception (no pun intended!) of the pro-choice side is that we are all pro-abortion and want to “cut down all the laws respecting human life.” That’s one reason I post on blogs like this one, where my opinion is going to be in the minority. Leaving the decision about continuing a pregnancy to the woman is not the same as saying that abortion is the desirable option, and all unplanned pregnancies should end in one. I have a teenage daughter myself, and frankly, I hope she never has an abortion.

      There are definitely people out there who call themselves pro-choice but are really pro-abortion — I’m not saying there aren’t. I have known people like the “black bandana woman” mentioned here. But while the pro-life side seems to divided into two main camps of dissent — those who make exceptions for rape, and those who don’t because of the baby’s innocence — there are far more divisions on the pro-choice side, far more shades of gray.

      I think that while I am voting for very different laws, we would agree more than we would disagree on individual situations.

      Also — sitting in the pews with you at mass every Sunday, there are quite a lot of silently pro-choice, pro-contraceptiion, pro-gay agenda Catholics just like me. We have a secret handshake to identify each other. smilies/wink.gif

    • Marcy K.

      This was excellent. I have two thoughts:

      First, one reason that these protesters are angry is that they know that they are wrong, even if only subconsciously, and that the guilt combined with trying to rationalize their view causes some of this anger. Even little kids know killing babies is wrong. When you fight against the Natural Law there is a conflict inside yourself. Of course this is denied, but logically there is no way to truly support the pro-choice view. Having to defend this view makes one defensive and causes the anger.

      Secondly,

      “To not have the option of terminating surprise pregnancies when they came up out of nowhere would mean being a slave to one’s biology.”

      What modern society teaches is really to be a slave to one’s sexual desires, which when given into controls you.

      It is interesting that being pregnant and creating a beautiful new life is considered to be an evil, but STD’s, broken hearts, financial horrors, etc. are to be accepted and encouraged.

    • Amelia

      I have a lot of sympathy with demands that abortion should remain legal because there are cases of rape, relationship failure, and poverty. There are other hard cases as well, such as disability status of the unborn child. As far as I’m aware, nobody has said these are easy situations – but they have been insufficiently addressed.

      With regard to rape, I do not believe in discrimination based on the circumstances of any person’s conception. People used to value women based upon who her father was, and now that’s transferred to the unborn – you’d think that kind of patriarchal, antifeminist thinking wouldn’t be around today, much less from a pro-choicer who claims to be pro-woman. Abortion doesn’t punish the rapist; everything should be done to prosecute him and jail him without pornography, barbells, or possibility of early release. What would you say if you found out you were talking to somebody whose father raped her mother? Would you say that she shouldn’t be alive? Abortions in cases of relationship failure are a similar non sequitur. Yes, life circumstances will be a challenge, possibly an extraordinarily difficult one. How does that make a life not worth living? What right does anybody have to judge another’s life as not worth living?

      The rights of the unborn aside, concern for the woman does not merit abortion. Abortion does not un-rape a woman or fix her relationship problems; if anything, many woman feel re-raped after the abortion procedure of a stranger entering and doing violence to her body. The child would probably be the only good thing to come out of the situation.

      As for poverty issues, abortion is a symptom, not the problem itself. It’s a problem that many women feel they do not have the choice to give birth due and the choice to raise their children. Abortion does not solve this problem; it does not even begin to address it. Abortion allows the status quo of poverty to continue hiding in the dirty backwaters of some of our consciences. No, we who are pro-life need to provide education and work options, childcare options, and other avenues of change to the impoverished.

      Disabilities are another issue that come up frequently. Try telling it to the face of a person born with a severe disability – I don’t think I can think of anything more condescending. Again, what right does one person have to determine that another’s life is not worth living?

      Finally, on the issue of married couples not having sex under circumstances which would make having an additional child unwise at best or dangerous at worst, fertility awareness methods of family planning are effective at preventing pregnancy according to the same kinds of clinical studies that tell us how well contraceptives work.

    • KA

      I’m not Catholic, but I’m no longer an atheist. Although when I was one, your thoughtful arguments still wouldn’t have swayed me.

      What got me eventually was that, as an atheist, I believed there was no God, and that this life was like the flame of a candle–you’re there, and then you’re not. And that gave me a great respect for life, since, not counting on an afterlife, it seemed to be the single sacred thread of existence. And if life was that important, how could you take it away from a human child?

      That was how I became a pro-life atheist. And I’m surprised at how many people wouldn’t take the life of an animal to eat it but would kill a child because it is unwanted (by the mother).

      It isn’t fashionable these days to be awed and humbled by anything–especially not by life itself.

    • Chad

      I think the great difficulty we face when addressing the issue of abortion, which the secular media prefers not to talk about, is the reality and the necessity of faith. Yes, life is hard. And love is harder. Love is the very source and summit of our redemption, and love also means sacrifice. There will always be “reasons” to justify evil, whether it involves abortion, euthanasia, war, or the like. But without faith in a provident, loving Father (and trustworthy savior), we will never have the strength to sacrifice ourselves that others might live. When all is said and done, it is the strength of the martrys–that is, witnesses–who teach us that love can in fact persevere through death, that we can ultimately sacrifice our own personal goals and comfort that others might live, and that life, no matter how disadvantaged and persecuted, is ALWAYS worth living, because God is good. This is the teaching of our faith, may God grant us the grace to live it.

    • tom faranda

      Jennifer thanks for posting this.

    • Mary

      CHAD: VERY NICE POST….Great thoughts to be taken to heart.

    • Mary Hasson

      Jennifer,
      You expose the lie that has become the premise in all secular discussions of women’s progress and freedom–that our equality and opportunity depend on the availability of contraception (which of course requires the backup of abortion). Your analysis is exactly right and the image of the two lists is incredibly helpful.

      I’m sending your article to many friends…Thanks for writing!

    • Trudy

      Nice post, but we will have to agree to diagree. I won’t post my opinion other than to say it is different than yours. Also, I am a Catholic Christian.

    • georgie-ann

      i just wonder why “moderns” (atheists, pro-choicers, etc.), think that taking themselves and their personal subjectivity, as being the only necessary/legitimate frame of reference needed to make and/or proclaim decisions and positions, is a worthy or safe stance,…

      how have they become so “deluded” as to imagine they could possibly be as “all-knowing” as “all that?”

      most intricate/delicate/valuable things come with an instruction manual or directions for care,…are we worth so little as to not care how we are to care for ourselves?,…

    • L.

      When did “moderns” become a pejoritive term? I have no desire to live in the Middle Ages….! And I, for one, feel very blessed to live in the time and place I do.

      Chad’s description above about the necessity of faith is quite eloquent and touching — someone’s religious faith is a valid basis on which to make personal decisions.

      But I would strongly argue against its use as a basis for public policy in a free society. Whose faith would we pick, when EVERY believer thinks he/she belongs to the one true Church?

      Assume that our religion “wins” — would we then criminalize contraception, ban books and movies that don’t conform to Catholic standards, or allow only Church-sanctioned marriages between never-divorced Catholics in good standing, and everyone else is out of luck?

    • S. Burton

      If you’re-a pro-life atheist, are you a modern or an “ancient”…??

      I don’t like this line-in-the-sand, us v. them, stereotype-driven division.

      All pro-choicers are not just selfish, pleasure-seeking individuals who are out to preserve abortion as back-up contraception should their primary method fail during a drunken hook-up.

      All pro-lifers aren’t fetus-fetishists who think no further than preserving the life of the child, or crazed religious wing-nuts who believe rape victims deserve to be “punished” by pregnancy for the sin of being raped.

      Most people are uncomfortable with abortion-on-demand, but they’re equally uncomfortable with, say, a Church which excommunicates a child and her mother for aborting the result of that child’s incestuous rape, yet which does NOT excommunicate the incestuous, child-abusing rapist.

      Young adults who aren’t married by 21 aren’t just a bunch of irresponsible brats who want to avoid adulthood and its responsibilities at all.

      There’s an overly simplistic, extremely stereotypical bent here in which all pro-lifers are fabulous, virtuous people who have a baby every year like good little Catholic boys and girls and all pro-choicers are evil hos and skanks who want nothing but anonymous, self-centered sex 24/7.

      The world isn’t like that. People are more complex than that.

    • Lucy

      “There is no such thing as being a good Catholic and being a dissident when it comes to faith and morals. There is no such thing as dissent from authentic and authoritative Church teaching. No such thing. Those who do that separate themselves from Christ and His body. They become dead members of the body of Christ.”

      - Father John Corapi
      http://www.lesfemmes-thetruth.org/poisons.htm

    • Lucy
    • Chad

      I think the challenge we face, from a Christian perspective, is that the world isn’t perfect. It’s fallen, and we’ve been caught in a cycle of violence that tries to convince us that loving is just too hard, and sometimes we simply need to cave into the difficulty of the present circumstances to preserve ourselves. That is why I mentioned the necessity of faith and the validity of martyrdom. But what are those implications on in the political sphere? Clearly, they must be related, if since the political concerns the human, and the human cannot be considered without reference to the possibility of faith in something beyond this world.

      So how does a person of faith influence the political sphere? Ultimately, we of faith pray that all the world will receive this gift of faith. And what is this gift? It is new way of relating to the world, but one in which the mystery of God enables us to achieve creative and harmonizing solutions to our problems without the use of violence. And indeed this is the problem: we are convinced that violence is necessary. And it occurs on both ends of this issue–permitting aboriton means violence against the unborn. But having worked with prisoners, I can tell you that our correctional institutions are often another type of offense against human dignity, and one that does not necessarily bring about the restoration and repentance of the offender (especially when you consider how much one’s upbringing contributes to his or her subsequent failures in society).

      So criminalizing something in our present context does involve another type of violence. There is the tension, and as Christians I believe we must have a fool’s hope to work and pray for a truly just and faithful society that respects human dignity, with the law, but without using the threat and fear of violence to enforce it. Yes, abortion ought to be illegal. But the “penalty” should be an act of mercy that would change the hearts of those who participate, not simply a punishment that only hardens their condition.

      Archbishop Oscar Romero continually worked for just treatment of his people, when they were oppressed by the rich and the powerful. But he did so without taking up arms, and always pleaded for peace. They killed him for that. And that brings us back to my first point: the gift of martyrdom is the truest witness to faith.

      The world will not understand, but that does not mean we give up trying. And that is why we have to forgive.

    • Scott Johnston

      Great article! Thank you for the insight.

      I believe that on the largest scale of consideration, the single most effective thing that can move hearts to change from accepting abortion to being pro-life is a genuine conversion to Christ and a truly open and deepening relationship with Him.

      Yes, sometimes an individual can be helped by other approaches, and we should continue to try anything that might save a life. But by and large, it seems to me that most people (including myself) who have gone through a conversion from “pro-choice” to pro-life made this transformation because they discovered a new appreciation and love for life after they came to truly believe in Jesus Christ. To know with deep conviction that every human being is created by God in His image and is loved by Him, regardless of the circumstances into which he was conceived, radically reorients one’s whole outlook on the value of human life. It certainly did for me.

      When I see an angry “pro-choicer,” my primary reaction is to think that this person needs Jesus. When we truly allow the grace of the divine Savior into our souls without keeping up obstacles, we eventually come to love what He loves. If only every committed Catholic (including myself) were more effective at lovingly guiding others to open their hearts more fully to Christ, abortion would become unthinkable.

    • S. Burton

      Chad, you’ve absolutely nailed it.

      Assuming motivation and dealing in personally convenient stereotypes are forms of violence, IMO, because they break the great commandment to love one another as you would yourself.

      Do any of us want others to assume things about us or our motivations, or want to be stereotyped and, as a result, seen as something lesser to the people doing the stereotyping?

      We are not going to succeed in preaching the Gospel if we do this. We can’t just talk _at_ people without listening, without fully embracing each person we wish to reach as a complete, unique human being who is equal to ourselves in God’s eyes.

    • Dani

      Why the polarization? Why two lists? Why two sides?

      The other day, as I was grappling with the pending death of my friends mom. She is basically a shell of a body with machine’s keeping her alive. I was driving away from downtown through the river valley. And there was this beautiful gray fog in the river, surrounded by the extreme sprinkling lights of downtown and the extreme lights of the cars.

      And that’s when I realized that there is beauty in the grey areas.

      All I know for sure is this…that everyone is created in the image of God. And that God loves everyone even if they don’t love him. So for anyone of us to cast judgement on either side is casting judgement against God.

      Although “Honour God” is the first commandment, Jesus clearly said that the second commandment is of equal importance…to “honour thy neighbour”. If you don’t do the latter, then the former is completely meaningless.

    • elm

      In the words of Bobby Schiendler: Where there is love, there is no burden.

      The Holy Spirit is the Giver of Life. Contraception and abortion deny the Holy Spirit His Godly roll in our future. To deny the Holy Spirit is to live w/out Grace. To deny the Church’s teachings on intrinsically evil things is to be without grace, and accordingly with out a Church. To receive Holy Eucharist under these conditions, bring condemnation to ourselves. Not my words by the Word of God.

    • Christina in VT

      Chad’s description above about the necessity of faith is quite eloquent and touching — someone’s religious faith is a valid basis on which to make personal decisions.

      But I would strongly argue against its use as a basis for public policy in a free society. Whose faith would we pick, when EVERY believer thinks he/she belongs to the one true Church?

      Religious faith does not determine the morality of abortion. It is a human rights issue. If the fetus is a human being who is simply at an early stage of development, then he or she ought to have rights like any other human being. Human rights are not dependent on your race, your sex, your size, your abilities, your age, or the circumstances of your conception or birth. They belong to you by virtue of being human.

      The problem is, the unborn child resides in another human being – a woman — who may or may not want that little person in there. What about her rights to autonomy? To choose to continue being pregnant? Whose rights trump?

      The right to life is the primary right… without it, no other rights exist. A woman’s right to exercise her autonomy or choice to be pregnant exists before a child is conceived. After that, the right to life trumps it. And a woman should be assisted in every way possible to make it easier for her to get through an undesired pregnancy. There is now a second human being involved – one that she, whether she likes it or not — must fundamentally respect.

      As for rape, where a woman’s autonomy is taken from her, the right to life must still take precedent. Abortion is an act of violence — against the child and against the mother. Another act of violent to solve the first act of violence is no “fix” for a woman or child.

      For years, women fought for the right to be considered persons, with rights. They were treated as property, as extensions of their fathers and husbands – and still are in many parts of the world. Now, many women consider their unborn children as property — as extensions of themselves. How is this possible? We have short memories.

      I know for myself the hardships involved in being pregnant when you don’t want to be. But it doesn’t change the right of every human being to his or her life. Women and African Americans at least had voices — they were not completely helpless. After what they experienced for years (and still do), I would think they’d be the number one champions of a group of people who can’t speak or cry out: the unborn.

    • S. Burton

      Christina,

      There is no “fix” for rape. To claim that abortion isn’t a “fix” for rape is meaningless. Women who have been forcibly impregnated against their will through an act of exreme violence aren’t trying to “fix” the rape.

      They’re preventing a second act of violence, much in the way someone who shoots an intruder or an enemy combatant is preventing an act of violence from being perpetrated upon themselves.

      Should a woman choose to carry the child to term, that’s her decision, but no one has the right to force a woman to carry a child she’s been violently and forcibly impregnated with against her will. To do so is to perpetrate a second rape.

      Now, if you have a problem with that, maybe your focus should be on not raising rapists in this society rather than forcing rape victims to be further traumatized.

      Sometimes situations arise when the only choice is the lesser of two evils, and this is one of them, and you don’t get to make the call because you don’t have to bear the burden of that choice, whatever it may be.

      Sometimes things just aren’t your business.

    • Rebecca

      One of the things I have always been thankful for is that my parents taught me that kids are a natural result of sex, protected or not. Most women believe they are ‘safe’, as long as they are on BC. Even if you overlook the small failure rate of BC, LOTS of women do not use whatever BC method they choose correctly and then get pregnant (I know this from personal experience, working at my mother’s OBGYN clinic from a young age). They thought they were ‘safe’, but they weren’t.

      I met a woman once who had had FOUR children while on the Pill. I really wanted to point out to her that maybe… just maybe… it wasn’t the contraceptive that was the problem.

      People need to get back to the idea that if you have sex, kids may result. The only 100% way to not have kids is abstinence.

    • Scott Johnston

      All I know for sure is this…that everyone is created in the image of God. And that God loves everyone even if they don’t love him. So for anyone of us to cast judgement on either side is casting judgement against God.

      This is a mistaken notion of our obligation not to judge others. What we are told by God not to judge is the status of another person’s heart–we can’t see into their souls. But clearly, we must judge other people’s actions. Every time we commit someone to jail for murder or any other crime we are judging that person’s actions.

      Hopefully, pro-lifers do not cast judgment upon the spiritual state of abortion advocates’ souls. But if we truly honor God and take Him at His word–thou shall not kill–we must judge the action of abortion as a grave offense against human life. We are told by God to stand up for the innocent, the poor, the defenseless. If the child in the womb is made in His image and loved by Him like every other human being, we are obligated to cherish and protect him. If we don’t, it would seem that either we don’t really believe the unborn human being is created and loved by God, or, we don’t believe “thou shall not kill” applies to everyone and see it as an optional directive.

    • LouisianaCatholic
    • S. Burton

      You can either have “thou shalt not kill” including everyone, including enemy combatants, terrorists, violent criminals, home intruders, etc., or you can’t.

      You can’t have thou shalt not kill under some circumstances but thou sure can under others, therefore it’s okay to kill women and children in the name of war and then say it’s not okay to abort the unborn child who is the product of a violent intrusion upon an innocent woman’s body.

      If you really, truly believe it is evil for a woman to abort the progeny of a rapist, then you are morally obligated to stop defending yourself and your family if the only way to defend them is to kill.

      So, when a guy is holing a gun to your kid’s head, and you have a split second to stop him by shooting him in the head, you have to stand there and watch him shoot your kid.

      Your rules, not mine.

    • Chad

      I think we face a great difficulty in addressing the issue of rape if we conceive of the issue in the very individualistic terms of our present culture. We tend to believe, that we are only resonsible for our own actions, and that our future is essentially left up to us, we have a right to “the pursuit of happiness,” if you like.

      But what if, Christianly speaking, we are to conceive of our own selves, our destiny, and ultimate meaning in life, not so much in terms of our personal goals and achievements, but actually in terms of the needs of our neighbor?

      This was the spirituality of Mother Theresa, who saw in every starving child or dying peasant a personal call to exercise mercy and love. And perhaps, this is also what we are called to. Nothing happens without reason, and that there is always the opportunity for forgiveness and grace in every act of evil.

      Yes, rape is a horrible violation of the dignity of a woman. And abortion is a horrible violation of the dignity of a child. But what if I were to come across a child who was starving and failed to respond to his or her needs? Indeed, the judgment scene from Matthew’s Gospel comes to mind… “I was hungry and you gave me (no) food.” What if someone were to throw upon me a desperately needy infant, and there was nobody else who could take care of the child? I do believe it would be my responsibility to reorient my life around the needs of this individual, and I pray for the grace to be able to do that.

      I heard of a woman recently, who would pray outside abortion clinics. When one woman considering abortion changed her mind and decided to have the child, she asked her “Will you help me?” She said yes, and postponed her graduate studies in order that she could assist this desperately needy mother who chose not to have an abortion. If we could all be as generous as this little saint!

    • S. Burton

      Chad,failing to feed a starving child in your path, either literally or metaphorically speaking, is hardly the same as you, a man, insisting a raped, impregnated woman must carry the child to term.

      So, if you or your spouse or child or even a perfect stranger was in immediate danger of being severely harmed and the only way you could prevent that harm was to kill the perp., would you refrain from killing them and stand by and watch your own child be slashed or raped or murdered just so you can show off your squeaky clean little soul to God and score some points?

      Or are you willing to take on what you have to take on in order to spare a loved one terrible harm?

      If I were the mother of that 9 year old little 65 pound girl in Brazil, I’d have made the same decision. If God would send me to hell for that, so be it. My first resonsibility is to my child, and if He’s that kind of God, a God who allows violently forced impregnation of little girls, who wants to spend an eternity with Him anyway.

    • Chad

      It is certainly a very difficult position we face–at what point are we permitted the use of violence for the sake of preserving the good? There are those who argue for the death penalty, and war and the like as “necessary evils.” Perhaps I’m a bit utopian at times, hoping that the reality of faith can overcome the need for violence under these very trying circumstances. Take for example, the use of atomic weapons in World War II. It spared us the pain of having to invade Japan, but at the cost of deliberately targetting innocent civilians in Hiroshima and Negasaki.

      I would, perhaps, offer one correction to the scenario. What if someone threatened to harm my child, lest I harm someone else, who is also innocently involved? Would I harm another innocent, to protect what is dear to me? That is a very difficult question, but in my conscience I can’t quite consent to it. I pray that if belief in God means anything, it means that there’s always a 3rd way… no matter how unlikely or risky it may be. Otherwise, I fear that we are at the mercy of the forces of violence. And I just can’t live that way. (By the way there’s a great scene at the end of the movie, The Mission, precisely on this point, in which Jeremy Irons is caught deeply in this struggle)

    • georgie-ann

      as i understand it, “Thou salt not kill,” is meant in the sense of murder the innocent,…not as in self-defense,…

    • S. Burton

      Of course. As you oh-so-conveniently understand it…

      Aborting the progeny of a rapist may well be self-defense for some women.

      Besides, innocents die in the midst of war all the time. Does that make all war intrinsically evil? Or are those particular innocents just written off as collateral damage?

    • anonymous

      I consider my use of non-abortaficient birthcontrol to be pro life. I have come to the point that I believe it to be a bigger sin for me to continue having children. If God will damn me to hell for nourishing my marriage while preventing the births of more children than I can handle, I guess I will have to trade my soul for their protection.
      However, if I do become pregnant despite the birth control, I will accept the child as a precious gift from God and pray I have for the ability to treat it like one.

    • Bob Foster

      As clearly taught by both scripture and the Church, the commmandment not to kill does not preclude the right of lawful self defense by individuals or governments.

    • S. Burton

      Chad,

      I have a real problem with the notion that the unborn child is 100% innocent and then that percentage drops with every day that child lives outside the womb.

      You’re asserting it may be okay to kill someone you feel is less than 100% innocent if the circumstances call for that extreme an action.

      This is where it all gets soooo murky.

      A lot of prolifers want to eat their cake and have it too.

      If it is conceivably moral to murder other human beings in certain situations, than it only logically follows that it is conceivably moral to abort under certain conditions.

      In this deeply flawed world we live in, we all struggle with these questions and do what we hope is right. Our God knows our hearts and judges accordingly, and how He may judge a woman who aborts the progeny of her rapist just might surprise you.

      Two individuals may act similarly but under different circumstances and with different intent.

      Let’s all hope God doesn’t see us in the terribly black-and-white, legalistic terms we seem hell-bent on using to judge each other, otherwise we’re all royally screwed.

    • Christina in VT

      S. Burton; You reasoning is strange in places.

      Nothing can “fix” a rape — I agree. And I’ve worked with raped and battered women, so need to educate me about their experiences.

      But aborting a child conceived a rape is not only to do another act of violence to the woman, but to treat the child as the aggressor – the child is not the aggressor. I know some people conceived from rape — thankfully their birth mothers were able to see the difference. I also know women who had to face such difficult circumstances. It IS indeed possible to make the right choices in what is otherwise terribly tough.

      No one can force a woman to carry a child when it comes right down to it… a percentage of women have always sought to rid themselves of a pregnancy. But a society shouldn’t sanction this in law by deeming that unborn human beings have no rights simple because of where they reside. All decisions must stem from principles. The unborn are human or not. If they are, they deserve rights. Then we need to work from there to figure out how to help women who have undesired pregnancies.

      Another word about abortions due to rape — it is a small percentage of abortions and decisions should never be based on the exception.

      You seem to have plenty to say, but you never address the human rights issue. Do human beings have equal dignity and rights, or not?

      Bringing up war and self-defense are red herrings. Besides, there are plenty of pro-life people — like myself – who are anti-war and anti-death penalty. The worst of the worst is the direct and intentional killing of an innocent.

      The only pro-choice position I have any respect for is the intellectually honest one: The one that says, “yes, this is a human being, but some human beings don’t have the inherent right to life. The unborn are one such group.” At least this is honest, even if it’s wrong.

      This is an issue fraught with emotion. Most of us know someone, or have experienced ourselves, abortion. Those experiences will color our views. But we really need to continue the conversation about this because the lives and health of women and children are at stake. I believe eventually the rights of the unborn will eventually be recognized. Science has already proved they are human beings. As long as we continue to believe that human beings have inherent dignity, we’ll get there.

    • L.

      Believe it or not, Christina, I am a pro-abortion rights even though I acknowlege the humanity of the unborn. I was an embryo once — we all were. I don’t think women should be legally compelled to carry a pregnancy to term against their will, though I do think that those women who choose to do so in cases of rape are heros. I don’t believe in legislating heroism and making it a requirement for everyone, though.

      Also, I am not a pacifist — I think sometimes war is justified. I think making laws to ban abortion makes about as much sense as laws against war. Neither war nor abortion is desirable, and working to prevent both is crucial. There are always going to be differences on the best way to prevent them both, but I think if there’s any common ground on the abortion issue, it’s that young people need to KNOW where babies come from.

      I think one reason I never got pregnant as a teenager was the gruesome pro-life film shown to my CCD class. It drove home the point that if I were to get pregnant, I would either have to have a baby (gross!) or an abortion (even more gross!!!). It was just like the anti-drunk driving film we watched in driver’s ed.

    • georgie-ann

      the comment i made about “Thou shalt not kill” was a translation issue, NOT my convenient personal interpretation,…the meaning of the original word, translated into English was that,…it means not to murder the innocent,…

      besides the obscene affront pro-choice abortion is to God, the Creator and Giver of Life, it is also a terrible subliminal message to send to the “living children” who were deliberately “chosen” by humans to survive,…

      in our vanity, our society, as pro-choicers, credit our “human choice” to be flattering to the child who manages to survive this bitter on-going holocaust,…but, in actuality, this poor child is being set up for bitter personal disappointment,…

      if his/her existence is only definable and defendable by fickle human preferences, what happens to his/her identity when a later angry parent (over “whatever”) starts the nagging/complaining process, now sending out “other messages?”,…it’s absolutely no wonder & no coincidence that there are so many teen suicides, and wasted, drugged-out lives,…these kids are acting out the reality of the destructive message of “choice” before your eyes,…their lives are NOT felt/seen as sacred & intrinsically of Eternal God-designed value,…they cannot realize that they are loved by God, because God in His Pure Loving Essence is being denied,…

      “Pro-choice” is a nihilistic and hateful message for a society to send out and live by,…did it ever occur to anyone, the guilt that a surviving child might carry, because he/she survived, but his/her brothers &/or sisters did not,…

      it’s not a message based on a solid foundation,…too much diabolical whimsy and fluctuating human inclinations factoring in,…Christ is the solid rock,…& i’m sure He is NOT pro-choice,…

    • Christina in VT

      I don’t think women should be legally compelled to carry a pregnancy to term against their will, though I do think that those women who choose to do so in cases of rape are heros. I don’t believe in legislating heroism and making it a requirement for everyone, though.

      They are not carrying a pregnancy — they are carrying a child –a human being. You say you agree that it’s human.. So do you believe all human beings have rights? Let’s start there.

      I agree, we can not tie women up to prevent them from taking the life of an unborn child. But neither should we allow our laws to say it’s okay. If it’s a human being in there, with rights, then it’s not okay to kill them. They have done absolutely nothing to deserve such a fatal punishment — they are the result of a decision to have sex (except in the case of rape, which was forced sex.)

      I’m not trying to be callous. I know the hardships of unplanned/undesired pregnancies. I’m trying to get to fundamentals here, and point out that at root here is the struggle between the rights of one person to his or her life, and the rights of another person to her autonomy. I think it’s clear that the right to life is the most fundamental and basic of all, and must be upheld if we are to be a humane society.

      We have also not discussed the toll abortion takes on women… It does great harm to a great many women – physical, emotional, psychological, and spiritual. And some of those women have now “come out” to say that. So, abortion hurts women, too. When faced with an unplanned pregnancy, women are in a difficult situation which can’t be erased. They are then faced with deciding how best to deal with their situation, which now involves another human being.

      We have to do much more to assist women. It is unfortunate that we can’t remove a fetus from its birth mother’s womb earlier to “rid her of her pregnancy,” but we don’t yet have the technology to do that. Sounds weird, but it might eventually be a solution that respects life but also respects the woman’s desire to not carry a child she doesn’t want.

      Pro-choice people seem to think that a woman “owns” the child in her womb, and has complete sovereignity over that life. In other words, whether it lives or dies is the mother’s decision. I don’t believe any woman should have that kind of power over another human being, even if they share DNA.

      It is another conversation to decide how to better help women, but the first conversation is what is fundamentally true here: Is the unborn human? Do all humans have rights? Which rights trump when they clash with each other?

      We can not base law or morality on anything else.

    • L.

      I actually agree, Georgie-Ann, that “pro-choice” CAN be a “nihilistic and hateful message for a society to send out and live by.” As I said, I’ve known people for whom “pro-abortion rights” really meant, “pro-abortion.” The original post above is about anger, not love.

      I have three children myself, all of whom are here because of my “fickle human preference” and my “diabolical whimsy and fluctuating human inclinations.” Is “whimsy” really “diaboilical?” I always say, our third son was a “human being made on a whim,” from one impulsive, unprotected sexual encounter.

      ALL OF US are all here both by the grace of God and because of the choices made by those who came before us — our own choices didn’t figure in it at all. I was born when I was because a particular sperm met a particular egg, and this would not have happpened if my father had not dropped out of grad school, lost his student deferment and quickly married my mother (to whom he was already engaged) and got her pregnant as soon as possible, so he could get a family deferment and wouldn’t be drafted and sent to Vietnam. So even though I was born to staunchly pro-life parents, “fickle human preference” and “human inclinations” figured in a pretty major way to the situation of my own conception.

    • L.

      —>”Pro-choice people seem to think that a woman “owns” the child in her womb, and has complete sovereignity over that life. In other words, whether it lives or dies is the mother’s decision. I don’t believe any woman should have that kind of power over another human being, even if they share DNA.”

      That’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it. I DO believe that a women owns (not just “owns”) her womb, and has complete soveignity over any life within. It is truly a compassionate choice to continue a pregnancy, but it’s not one that women should be mandated to make. The surveys I’ve seen lately seem to show that even people who call themselves pro-choice favor restrictions on late-term abortions, past the point of viability at which a baby can survive outside its mother.

      However, I do understand why the true pro-life position has no room for compromise, even in cases of rape. I understand and respect it, even though I personally disagree with it.

    • L.

      —>”Pro-choice people seem to think that a woman “owns” the child in her womb, and has complete sovereignity over that life. In other words, whether it lives or dies is the mother’s decision. I don’t believe any woman should have that kind of power over another human being, even if they share DNA.”

      That’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it. I DO believe that a women owns (not just “owns”) her womb, and has complete soveignity over any life within. It is truly a compassionate choice to continue a pregnancy, but it’s not one that women should be mandated to make. The surveys I’ve seen lately seem to show that even people who call themselves pro-choice favor restrictions on late-term abortions, past the point of viability at which a baby can survive outside its mother.

      However, I do understand why the true pro-life position has no room for compromise, even in cases of rape. I understand and respect it, even though I personally disagree with it.

    • S. Burton

      Christina,

      Yes, the percentage of rape victims who become pregnant is very small, but just as we don’t create law based on the exception, we don’t create law based on anecdotal evidence. We all know someone who chose this, that or the other thing and was either at peace with their decision or was traumatized by it.

      Yes, life starts at conception. Yes, all human beings have an inherent right to life. In an ideal world, these situations wouldn’t arise and this wouldn’t be an issue. In a world where men rape women, girls, their own daughters, etc., however, we have to have an out for the women and girls who are further traumatized by being forced to carry the child of their rapist. If they choose to, that’s fine. They should be supported and loved no matter what their decision. It’s taking away the choice that’s wrong. That’s the ultimate trauma. No one is ever at peace with a decision they were forced to make.

      Change hearts, change minds, create the world in which these situations don’t occur and legalized abortion would’t matter.

      One other thing, because it’s come up a few times. Contraception and abortion didn’t create this division of reproduction and sexual intimacy. Christian and other communities the world over did, and they’ve been doing it since the dawn of time. I certainly grew up with pregnancy being held over my head as the terrible, horrible result of sex outside marriage. As a young woman in a Catholic family and who attended Catholic schools, pregnancy was the thing our parents and the nuns who taught us threatened us with all the time. You can hardly fault women for finally figuring out how to avoid pregnancy, that terrible, terrible thing that we were told would destroy our lives — and just our lives, not the boys’ lives. Why anyone would be surprised that contraception and legalized abortion would be the natural end result of that message, I don’t know.

    • to S. Burton

      S. Burton. Some of what you are arguing is just shocking.

      You wrote, “In an ideal world, these situations wouldn’t arise and this wouldn’t be an issue.”

      In an ideal world we wouldn’t have genocide, man-made famine, and child abuse. But I guess we have to choose those ‘lesser evils,’ too?

      “No one is ever at peace with a decision they were forced to make.”
      True. It would be hard to look at yourself in the mirror if you were forced to beat your own mother to death.

      These are not lesser evils. They are horrific, horrific acts it would be better to die than commit.

    • L.

      “No one is ever at peace with a decision they were forced to make.
      Change hearts, change minds, create the world in which these situations don’t occur and legalized abortion wouldn’t matter.”

      Agreed — too much time and energy is wasted arguing over whether abortion should be LEGAL/ILLEGAL that few people have time to work on making it RARE.

      Wouldn’t it be nice if all pregnancies were healthy and wanted?

    • Christina

      That’s it in a nutshell, isn’t it. I DO believe that a women owns (not just “owns”) her womb, and has complete soveignity over any life within. It is truly a compassionate choice to continue a pregnancy, but it’s not one that women should be mandated to make. The surveys I’ve seen lately seem to show that even people who call themselves pro-choice favor restrictions on late-term abortions, past the point of viability at which a baby can survive outside its mother.

      However, I do understand why the true pro-life position has no room for compromise, even in cases of rape. I understand and respect it, even though I personally disagree with it.

      Laws exist, in part, to protect people — and the most fundamental right of all people is their right to life. A woman “owns” her womb, yes, but she doesn’t own the child within it. That’s the difference. And again, no one can force her to give birth. But neither should a decent and humane society deny a group of human beings their rights, allowing their lives to be taken. No matter what the circumstances.

      I think the pro-choice position is a false compassion… it certainly ignores the innocent child, and it ignores the Christian basic that we are our sisters’ keepers. And we know, more and more, that abortion hurts women. Maybe not all women experience bad effects from it, but many, many do. It’s not a choice women should ever feel compelled to make. And right now, a good percentage of women who have abortions do feel like they had or have little choice. Most people, in order to justify keeping abortion legal, wish to completely deny that an unborn child is a human being. Plenty of babies are born today and live at a stage where others are being killed. If so many pro-choice people want to restrict abortions after the age of viability, why don’t they work for it? If abortion is an “unfortunate, less compassionate choice,” why don’t they spend their time, effort and money helping women to not make that choice?

      What I think you are saying L. is that you believe it’s okay to allow a woman to have the child within her womb killed… for whatever reasons she deems necessary. That language is blunt, but l let’s call it what it is. If you believe this, then you’re saying it’s okay that a certain group of people are denied basic rights and eliminated. And you believe that a pregnant woman’s autonomy should dominate over a child’s right to life. This is where we disagree.

      Yes, life starts at conception. Yes, all human beings have an inherent right to life. In an ideal world, these situations wouldn’t arise and this wouldn’t be an issue. In a world where men rape women, girls, their own daughters, etc., however, we have to have an out for the women and girls who are further traumatized by being forced to carry the child of their rapist. If they choose to, that’s fine. They should be supported and loved no matter what their decision. It’s taking away the choice that’s wrong. That’s the ultimate trauma. No one is ever at peace with a decision they were forced to make.

      Change hearts, change minds, create the world in which these situations don’t occur and legalized abortion would’t matter.

      Yes, African Americans are human beings, and have inherent rights. In an ideal world, these situations wouldn’t arise and this wouldn’t be an issue. In a world where whites own blacks, and need them to keep the economy going, we have to allow slavery to continue. If a plantation owner choose not have slaves, that’s fine. They should be supported and loved no matter what their decision. It’s taking away the choice to have slaves that’s wrong. That’s the ultimate trauma. No one is ever at peace with a decision they are forced to make.

      Change hearts, change minds, create the world in which slavery doesn’t occur and making it illegal would’t matter.

      Okay, I know… I squirmed a bit there, too. You probably have a problem with me doing that. I can’t help it — there are so many parallels. Your reasoning can be used with any difficult human rights issue from the past. Which now seems crystal clear to us all, but back then, there were many good people who didn’t think slaves were human beings, therefore persons, or if they were persons, we still didn’t need to make it a legal thing.

      You can’t base laws about life and death, about the fundamental rights of human beings on the fact that life is cruel sometimes. Things are not rosy in this world. And women get pregnant-for all kinds of reasons. So many of us seem to want to forget this fact – women are going to get pregnant, sometimes in tragic circumstances. We need to acknowledge, assume it even, and deal with it.

      I can’t speak to pregnancy being held over your head as every young woman’s nightmare. I didn’t grow up with that idea of pregnancy and sex and children. I do think eventually those who fight for the rights of today’s group of people who are denied the most basic right of all – life – will some day be heralded as heroes. The wishy-washy middle will be forgotten.

    • S. Burton

      L., exactly. Roe v. Wade is here to stay, it’s not going away, and it will always be legal to obtain an abortion, at least in the most extreme situations, in the USA.

      But that’s where the Pro-Live Movement has chosen to focus its energy, so that’s where the arguments remain.

      To “to S. Burton” — we don’t choose child abuse or famine, and alleviating them doesn’t require the same terrible choice a rape victim facing a traumatic, invasive pregancy does.

      It’s a rare situation in which anyone finds themselves faced with that kind of choice, but those situations happen we can’t force innocent women to undergo a second rape of her person by requiring her to carry and deliver the child of her rapist.

    • Ryan

      A few commenters have brought up the issues of self-defense, war, and the death penalty. I think it’s important to address these, because pro-choicers will often call pro-lifers hypocritical for supporting these things (even if our support is qualified) without necessarily understanding the nuances.

      For in admitting that killing in self-defense can be moral, that war is sometimes justifiable, and that the death penalty can be licit under certain circumstances, we are implicitly acknowledging that the right to life, though the most fundamental of rights, is not absolute and inviolate, and can be compromised under certain conditions.

      I am not familiar with the details of Catholic thought on these issues, so someone may have to correct me if I am wrong. But it seems to me that the inviolateness of a person’s right to life is inextricably bound with his or her innocence, the absence of him or her intentionally violating the right to life of others. In the case of self-defense, an aggressor’s right is compromised precisely because of his intent to take the life of another; this same principle holds true in the case just war, which is self-defense writ large. It is why the execution of a person who has committed murder, while still possibly evil in itself, is a lesser evil than the execution of an innocent person.

      Am I right about this?

    • L.

      The slavery analogy helps me understand the pro-life position — why compromise is impossible, and why pro-life people believe that using abortificient contraception is exactly the same as cutting my children’s throats.

      It doesn’t quite work because 1) there are pro-choice people like me who acknowlege that the unborn are indeed human and not some lesser beings; and 2) there is NOTHING perfectly analogous to a pregnancy, in which one person is inside another, sucking the very life from her.

    • S. Burton

      Christina,

      You’re being ridiculous and you know it.

      The only way your nonsensical analogy would work would be if someone managed to force a household full of slaves into a woman’s womb and she had to have an abortion to get them out.

    • L.

      The Catholic position is to oppose the death penalty, and all “unjust” wars.

      And “innocence” alone is not the only factor — otherwise, wars that kill innocent non-combatants would ALWAYS be unjustifiable.

      The three factors to weigh are moral object chosen [finis operis], relevant moral circumstances, and the final intention [finis operantis].

      Search St. Thomas Aquinas if you’re interested in reading more.

    • BPS

      “No one is ever at peace with a decision they were forced to make.
      Change hearts, change minds, create the world in which these situations don’t occur and legalized abortion wouldn’t matter.”

      Agreed — too much time and energy is wasted arguing over whether abortion should be LEGAL/ILLEGAL that few people have time to work on making it RARE.

      Wouldn’t it be nice if all pregnancies were healthy and wanted?

      Who says they aren’t wanted? Perhaps you are unaware that there is a waiting list in the U.S. for parents to adopt even retarded or seriously disable infants (also regardless of race). I know this for a fact as my brother and sister-in-law adopted 2 infants in the D.C. suburbs after years waiting.

      A few years back, the feminist writer Naomi Wolf discussed in a magazine article a remarkable, but evidently common occurance in wealthy suburbs of Marin County (near San Francisco). Girls in high school (perhaps in college) get pregnant on purpose, to test if their boyfriends are “good guys”. If he offers to pay for the abortion and go with her to the clinic, he’s good (a Keeper!)….

    • L.

      BPS, I think you know I mean, “wanted by the MOTHERS.” Just because people are lined up to adopt any potential baby of mine doesn’t mean I want to get knocked up, at my age, with my medical history.

      And the thought of anyone getting pregnant on purpose with the intent to abort is downright creepy.

    • BPS

      It’s a rare situation in which anyone finds themselves faced with that kind of choice, but those situations happen we can’t force innocent women to undergo a second rape of her person by requiring her to carry and deliver the child of her rapist.

      Rape is rape. Your or anyone else CALLING something entirely different–a mother having to carry a child who is the result a rape–does not make it rape.

      And abortion and slavery come from the same place in the fallen human psyche–the idea that some people are “not quite human in the same way I am”.

    • S. Burton

      And the thought of anyone getting pregnant on purpose with the intent to abort is downright creepy.

      The thought of forcing a rape victim to carry a violently implanted baby against her will with the intent of fulfilling another woman’s desire to adopt is even creepier, IMO.

      But, yes, that Naomi Wolfe anecdote is grotesque.

    • BPS

      BPS, I think you know I mean, “wanted by the MOTHERS.” Just because people are lined up to adopt any potential baby of mine doesn’t mean I want to get knocked up, at my age, with my medical history.

      And the thought of anyone getting pregnant on purpose with the intent to abort is downright creepy.

      So the mother in South Carolina, who decided her two little boys got in the way of her dating life, and that she didn’t want them and rolled her car with them into the lake, was that alright? You know, Peter Singer, the medical ethics prof. at Princeton says a mother should be able to do that.

      And why is the girls of Marin Cty practice of getting pregnant to abort creepy? Because you don’t like it? They have a really good reason for it, just like the mother in S.C.

    • L.

      Susan Smith’s kids, as far as I recall from her sad case, had been outside her body for several years.

      And a pregnancy with the intent to abort? I think it’s creepy that a girl would put herself through uncomfortable, possibly painful, minor gynocological surgery, with all the risks therein, just to test a boyfriend’s commitment to her. No, I don’t like it — should I?

    • S. Burton

      BPS,

      Non-starters, both.

      A mother who truly wants to sever ties with her already-born children has other options. The girls who wanted to test their boyfriends had other options.

      Rape victims who do not want to be further violated by a pregnancy and delivery forced upon them against their will have no other options.

    • georgie-ann

      The Parable of the Two Sons
      28″What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work today in the vineyard.’

      29″ ‘I will not,’ he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

      30″Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, ‘I will, sir,’ but he did not go.

      31″Which of the two did what his father wanted?”
      “The first,” they answered.

      Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.”

      catholic?,…what we say outwardly, or call ourselves, or claim to be, or how we self-justify, is NOT the proving testimony,…it is our obedience in being faithful & DOing God’s will,…

      if you’re asking “what is the Catholic teaching?”, be careful whether you are listening to a Catholic or a “catholic” in outer name-claiming only,…

      p.s. not all human whimsy is diabolical, but some is,…

    • L.

      FYI — the Church considers even excommunicated Catholics to be Catholics (with a capital “C”), and even excommunication doesn’t exempt someone from the requirement to attend mass.

    • David

      If you really want to stop abortions, one needs to either ban contraceptives or ban premarital sex. In case of Rape victims I would expect organizations to take care of these children in case the mothers did not want them.
      But the real reason why I think abortions are wanted is because so much we hear today today is a lie!!
      Here are some common assumptions:
      1>Having Sex is an exercise of freedom, Liberation. (I’ll come to that)
      2>Sex does not lead to babies if contraceptives are used. (well look at the number of people going for abortions, doesn’t that tell you something)
      3> Freedom does not come with responsibility. (Ahem, no need to talk about that)
      4> Being a mother is a disadvantage and is not a good thing if you want a career. (I have a mother who has a good career in Graphics Design and she’s well past fifty and she has seven children)
      5>STD can be avoided with use of condoms… etc the list goes on.

      Fact is that though I advocate the Liberalization of women I think (just guessing here) women come out worse in cases of sex with immature men ( I’m talking mental-emotional level).
      So really having sex as a freedom excise (or just because it feels good) is actually not so good:
      #If you do not feel emotionally ready to be a responsible person and be aware of the repercussions.
      #If your partner would not make a good parent and is not deeply in love with you and will not support you though what-ever happens to you. (talking about Pregnancy, Irritation, Rage, Hatred,Bullheadedness, Fat thighs etc)
      #If you’re not ready for all the lifestyle changes that would be involved in case of any unseen event (read STD, pregnancy, end-of-the-world etc)

      If you look closely they resemble the second list (the baby list)
      In fact I think you would be better off getting into drugs (I feels good, it exercises your freedom to do whatever you want with your body etc).
      I guess if the world learned how to be less self oriented and more others oriented we would not be having this debate!!

      I know my thinking may have many deficiencies but I am happy for all the people reading this cuz searching for the Truth is the first step to Finding The Truth!!!
      Keep Searching!

    • S. Burton

      In fact I think you would be better off getting into drugs (I feels good, it exercises your freedom to do whatever you want with your body etc).

      And if you choose the right drugs, you can get rid of those troublesome fat thighs with minimal effort — bonus!

    • georgie-ann

      it’s still possible that the sheep & goats reference would apply,…

      these are God’s parables,…not my words,…and “food for thought,”…

    • L.

      —-> “If you really want to stop abortions, one needs to either ban contraceptives or ban premarital sex.”

      Actually, a significant number of women who have abortions are married. Is banning contraception for married people desirable in all situations?

      You know, here’s an aside: I am living in Japan now, which is a very “others-oriented” as opposed to a “self-oriented” society, where children are socialized to think of their greater group at all times. And yet abortion is legal and very common here (much more common than it should be, in my opinion — contraceptive use is very low). Anyway, selfishness alone doesn’t explain an “abortion culture.”

    • L.

      If only devout Catholic sheep get into heaven, then I’d rather not go — I’d rather spend eternity with the loving old goat I married.

    • All I want for Christmas

      THanks so much for your article. You nail the “readiness” factors on the head.
      May I make a suggestion? You refer to “unwanted” pregnancies. May I suggest you use the label “out of wedlock” pregnancies instead? Bc, truly, we believe no pregnancy is unwanted, nor unplanned by God. And neither by the hundreds of thousands of couples waiting to adopt.

    • Christina

      It doesn’t quite work because 1) there are pro-choice people like me who acknowlege that the unborn are indeed human and not some lesser beings; and 2) there is NOTHING perfectly analogous to a pregnancy, in which one person is inside another, sucking the very life from her.

      Wow, what a negative view of pregnancy… “Sucking the very life from her…”
      Yes, I recognize that you agree the unborn are human beings. And that you think it’s fine to kill them because of where they reside.
      You’re right, though, that there is nothing perfectly analagous to pregnancy. No analogy is perfect when discussing any issue. Analogies are meant to draw parallels and commonalities.

      You’re being ridiculous and you know it.

      The only way your nonsensical analogy would work would be if someone managed to force a household full of slaves into a woman’s womb and she had to have an abortion to get them out.

      I wasn’t being all that ridiculous — some of the great philosophical minds today have compared slavery and abortion. They are analagous on the issue of personhood. Slaves weren’t considered persons with rights because of their skin color and features. The unborn aren’t given rights because of their size and place of residence. Women weren’t treated as persons under the law because of their gender. There are similarities here.

      But, you are right… abortion is also different because one person is physically connected to another. Even if abortion were illegal, women still have to ultimately say yes to giving birth, to giving a child his or her right to life. The problem is, this right is inherent, not something the birth mother gets to confer. And we are still a long ways off from providing women the support and options to help them choose life.

      I don’t think we’re going to agree here. I think both L and S Burton’s arguments fall apart when flushed out. They seem primarily based on the desire to be compassionate to women, but instead ignore the violence and damage abortion does to women, and the violation it is to human rights. I also don’t see any mention of the importance of pro-choicers getting out there and fighting to at least restrict abortion. If you acknowledge the unborn are human beings, and that the compassionate choice is to give life, then it only makes sense that you promote this. Yet most pro-choicers don’t – they want unlimited access and no restrictions.

      Thanks for being willing to enter into conversation about a very tough issue.

    • georgie-ann

      the proverbial castrating type of female is a very scary type of person,…they certainly have been observed to exist, and not all that uncommonly, and in various walks of life,…

      listening to the callous sentiments expressed here, i’m beginning to view pro-choicers as a potential sub-group of this difficult personality type,…they seem to be very content with calling their own shots,…self-satisfied, maybe?,…

      but something seems to be glaringly missing,…beyond the obvious, i can’t quite put my finger on it,…

    • L.

      I’m not sure why my argument “falls apart” just because I disagree that the right to life is inherent and trumps all other rights of the mother. (And I didn’t even think that was a negative view of pregnancy — I didn’t even use the “parasite” analogy, because although parasites suck life from a woman just as a baby does, you’ll never see a tapeworm developing into a human infant!)

      But I do agree that we are still a long ways off from providing women the support and options to help them choose life. Why ever should those of us who support abortion rights be “getting out there and fighting to at least restrict abortion?” I think my time and energy are better spent preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place, and offering help to women in crisis pregnancies who DO want to carry to term.

      I haven’t been in a discussion about abortion in quite some time — it doesn’t come up much in my life. I also appreciate the chance to have a civil discussion on it.

    • L.

      It’s actually hard to be “self-satisfied” when arguing against the pro-life side, because while I believe abortion should be legal, I don’t believe it’s a desirable outcome in every situation. And I think there are far too many unwanted pregnancies.

      I think there is a difference between being “callous” and “practical,” but if “callous” is the worst thing people will call me, then I can live with that. Oh, wait….. I think you might also be calling me a “proverbial castrating type of female” and “a very scary type of person” — ah well, I guess I can live with that, too!

      I certainly admit to being content to calling my own shots — and you would probably find it surprising how much of my life DOES end up falling along the lines of Catholic teaching. Go figure.

    • L.

      Georgie-Ann, I think if you ever met me in real life, you might not like me much, but I doubt you would think I am “scary” in any way.

      Peace.

    • georgie-ann

      i’m not talking about anyone in particular,…just generalizing from the totality of the comments,…”scary” can exist for me on many levels,…actually, in the mental/spiritual realm, perhaps somewhat disconnected from the instinctive/emotional realm, is where i experience the “freak-out” sensation the most,…kind of like listening to a Hitler self-justify his plan for the jews, while smiling,…something like that,…it’s just plain creepy,…

      but also the blasphemy of God really gets me,…but in a different way,…the “secret handshake” between catholics in church, to secretly mutually acknowledge and identify their rebellious pro-abortion, pro-gay, & who-knows-what-else ideology?,…this is announced with self-satisfied pride?,…and they want to identify themselves as catholics?,…why bother?,…the rebellious attitude stinks,…

      God says (paraphrased) to be “hot” or “cold,”…but if “lukewarm,” He’ll spit you right out of His mouth,…see, i take that stuff seriously,…and out of love–not fear–i would never want to do that to God,…

    • georgie-ann

      the rebellious, hypocritical attitude stinks,…

    • L.

      Sorry, Georgie-Ann — the “announcement” of the “secret handshake” was a joke, nothing more. I shouldn’t joke, when others are speaking seriously, and I seem to have upset you very much, which was not my intent.

      I don’t think I have “rebellious, hypocritical attitude” that “stinks.” I am not as a rule a rebellious person — unless you count my contraceptive use, which you likely do. And as for “hyprocritical,” I am nothing but (perhaps excessively) honest. I am Catholic, but I am not in full communion with the Church for reasons that involve my marriage more than my opinion on social issues like feminism, gender, contraception and abortion.

      Why be Catholic at all? I didn’t pick it — I was born into it, and after years of staying away from mass, I started going again, and got all my kids baptized, too. It would have been eassier to stay away, but I realized it’s part of who I am, for better or for worse.

      And as I said above, the Church is about far more than a few contentious social issues. I’m sorry if I sounded smug to you. Think of it this way: those of us who question just about everything, and still hope to live a moral and honest life, usually have a much harder time of it, and tend to overthink things.

    • weather

      Being born catholic doesn’t make you any more catholic than being born in a garage makes you a car.

    • S. Burton

      No, weather, but being baptized Catholic does, unless you don’t really believe in the Sacraments.

      Christina,

      I, like a very large number of Americans, would approve of restricting legalized abortion if rape/incest and women in extreme medical situations were able to obtain abortions.
      But if it’s a choice between blanket criminalization of abortion and abortion-on-demand, I’d err on the side of abortion on demand.

      I believe, however, that had the time, energy and resources the Pro-Life Movement has spent over the past several decades been channeled into changing perceptions and mindsets, into providing non-judgmental support for women experiencing difficult pregnancies, into breaking down the divisiveness, the us v. them camps, and the hate on BOTH sides, then it wouldn’t matter if there were free abortion clinics on every acre of the planet.

      More people are coming to the realization that focusing on reversing a law that isn’t going to be reversed has been pretty counterproductive and has created a detachment and a distance from the humanity of EVERYONE involved.

      The world is watching this very minute the trial of a pro-lifer who, with the encouragement of the pro-life community, murdered a man in cold blood in a church. Do I think George Tiller was in the right? No. But I don’t think he should have been gunned down by a known madman, a madman tolerated by the pro-life community for years, and a madman egged on by the divisive, contentious rhetoric of the pro-ife community.

      No doubt that madman thinks he’s a hero, and I’m sure there are a good number of pro-lifers who condsider him a hero.

      And no doubt the people who love to march and wave flags and stand on opposite sides of a line and assume they can perceive the minds of those they face think they’re big heroes, too.

      Maybe, however, if all those millions and millions of dollars that have gone into printing shrill and hateful tracts, into creating catchy, attention-grabbing slogans, into PR and advertising, etc., had been spent on outreach and care and support for women and their children, more actual lives would have been saved and culural attitudes would have shifted and fewer women would be seeking abortions today.

    • hope

      “Maybe, however, if all those millions and millions of dollars that have gone into printing shrill and hateful tracts, into creating catchy, attention-grabbing slogans, into PR and advertising, etc., had been spent on outreach and care and support for women and their children, more actual lives would have been saved and culural attitudes would have shifted and fewer women would be seeking abortions today.” S. Burton

      Wow, how blind we are when each year in the U.S., the abortion industry brings in approximately $831 million through their abortion services alone. If you add in the $337 million (or more) that Planned Parenthood (America’s largest abortion provider) receives annually in government grants and contracts for, the annual dollar amount moves well past 1 billion.
      By last count, Planned Parenthood (a tax-exempt organization!) has $951 million in total assets! The abortion industry makes huge sums of money violating women and killing their children.

    • S. Burton

      Yes, the abortion industry makes lots of money.

      And the prolife industry wastes lots of money.

      Both are bad.

    • georgie-ann

      …here’s another one,…maybe if women had to come to terms with their personal dignity, and take better care of “the very special life-bearing equipment” that God has entrusted them with, instead of “throwing it around all over the place” (like “female dogs” in heat),…

      maybe if they realized and accepted and appreciated and protected their vulnerability, by making better quality decisions as to where they “hang out,” what they do, and “how they adventurously expose themselves” to dangers,…

      well, maybe then a lot of things would be different,…and maybe men would actually come around to the position of respecting them more,…

      a huge percentage of women’s “sexual victimization” and exploitation these days is accomplished with their complete and willing cooperation and participation,…so, go figure,…

      it’s a self-defeating cycle that we’re into now,…only getting to the “root” is really going to help substantially,…otherwise, it’s “down the tubes,”…

      and for these reasons, i’m not really so much on the band-wagons about helping “all the poor women and children, abandoned and neglected by men,” although i know we have to that,…but i’m just saying, that’s NOT where the problem begins, or ends, or is solved,…

      p.s.,…btw, L,…i’m not the judge of individuals,…only God is,…i appreciate your apparent love for the Catholic church, and i’m sure God does too,…

    • georgie-ann

      …i know we have to DO that,…

    • S. Burton

      Ah, so rape victims and incest victims are to blame for their violent, criminal violations becaue they asked for it…

      There is no conversation to be had with anyone who thinks like that.

    • Deborah

      S. Burton,

      Your hatred and discrimination of those of us conceived in rape is disgusting.

      Calling us the “progeny of a rapist” and “the child of her rapist”. Any other insults you want to throw our way?

      It’s unbelievable to me that in such an educated and so-called enlightened society that you would refer to another human being that way.

      Here’s a basic science lesson: I am just as much my mother’s child as my siblings. In fact, in case you weren’t aware, my siblings and I have exactly the same amount of our mother’s DNA, and that was not dependent on how we were conceived.

      I have just as much right to be alive as you so kindly knock off the superior human being attitude.

    • S. Burton

      Deborah,

      I harbor no hatred in my heart for anyone. You couldn’t be more wrong.

      In using the terms I did I was speaking generally and from the perspective of a theoretical situation.

      I’m sorry if those terms in that context offended and hurt you, and I will be sure to choose my words more carefully going forward.

    • Alix

      BPS, I think you know I mean, “wanted by the MOTHERS.”

      I’m sure she did. The slogan “Every Child A Wanted Child,” however, is still the neatest piece of sophistry ever marketed to a compassionate nation. Since when does my ‘wanting’ something affect the human rights and dignity of another person? If I want a job, and someone else stands in my way, is he entitled to less consideration because of my wants? If I have a dream, and someone steps in between me and my dream, am I entitled to kill her? If I have been accepted into college, and someone appears on the scene to prevent my going, is his life forfeit? If I am poor, and starving, and killing a certain person will help me alleviate my suffering, do I have the right to kill that person?

      According to you (and, of course, current law) ‘Yes’ if they are in my womb. ‘No’ if they are outside of it.

      Wanted or unwanted, every human being has equal dignity, and equal rights. Leaving religion aside, abortion is a civil rights issue.

    • Lana

      S. Burton:

      It seems that in the hypothetical case you are arguing, you are saying that women and girls who are raped should not have to suffer even More than they already have. You are also saying that it is “traumatizing” and a “violation” to their bodies and mental wellbeing to require them to carry these pregnancies to term.

      This is not such a hypothetical case as we all well know. In Darfur alone (and in broader Sudan for 30 years) this has been the reality of many many women and girls who are repeatedly raped and kept as sex slaves. Many of these women/girls do conceive and without the option of abortion, they feel they have no other choice but infanticide.

      They are desperate and they are in despair. They really do not see that they have any other choice. So: their behavior is very understandable. How can we not imagine doing the same thing in their situation (especially if all evidence points to the daughters born of rape enduring the same things when they are older?).I think that God and other people can only look on these poor women with compassion. What a terrible, terrible thing to suffer.

      I think we all pray for mercy for everyone involved. Not least to blame: the rest of the world who has not found a way to help resolve this conflict (esp. because there are many national interests at stake–see China, for example, and insufficient international political will). So we all need to pray for mercy for ourselves, too.

      But. From a Catholic moral/ethical/theological perspective, there is no question of arguing that such actions are justifiable, as they cannot be in individual cases of rape in any situation. To do so would be to allow a form of premeditated murder (and to participate in it by providing arguments for it). Neither infanticide nor abortion are, after all, crimes of passion. They are based on a choice to follow through with a particular plan of action that is laid out ahead of time, and systematically.

      You are right that pregnancy is a unique situation. It is not entirely comparable to slavery or genocide because there is always a possibility in those cases for outside intervention or active resistance. A child and her mother are uniquely related in that the child is completely and utterly dependent on someone else for survival. Once a mother has taken a decision to terminate, there is no hope anymore for that child’s survival. It is the law of nature that parents protect their children (as in the example listed above). Especially with laws that protect the mother’s rights to terminate, that child is completely at her mercy.

      That is why it is different.

      A religion that believes in the Incarnation of God by becoming an infant, and one that believes that the greatest good of humanity came about by its greatest injustice and the greatest suffering conceivable: to torture and kill God (talk about being violated and traumatized), cannot be consistent AND also allow the ending of innocent life. NO matter what. Redemption through great suffering–this is what Catholics believe.

      And so the Church upholds the example of those who do not run away from suffering, but even embrace it, like Maximilian Kolbe. As if he hadn’t suffered enough as a priest at Auschwitz–but with an opportunity to suffer even more, he chooses it.

      And the Church couldn’t do this if she didn’t also teach that the poor, the weak, the helpless (mothers who are victims, included) will be the first in the Kingdom. If the church did not believe that this is not the only life we get, she would be unfair, you are right.

    • georgie-ann

      what happens to the concept of “motherhood,” when mothers willfully, intentionally & pre-meditatedly become “murdering mothers” with a license to kill their young?,…it absolutely gives me the shivers,…what would we think if this spring all the mother animals just started killing their young & flying away & abandoning their nests & lairs?,..even the atheistic scientists would think the world had gone mad,…

      very nice post, Lana,…

      great post, Deborah,…what a significant testimony!,…God Bless you & your beautiful mother & family,…

    • S. Burton

      Lana,

      Women do not premeditate their own rapes. A pregnancy resulting from rape is violently thrust upon the woman. Deciding to terminate a violently imposed pregnancy is no more premeditated murder than shooting someone in self defense is or returning fire at enemy combatants is.

      Maybe if the Church and the pro-life people did a better job of preaching their message, women might find it in their hearts to make the choice for the lives of their unborn children. Maybe if the Church and the professional pro-lifers landed on rhetoric like georgie-ann’s as hard as they’ll land on what I have to say, they’d have a little more credibility.

      When a very vocal, proud and self-professed devout Catholic such as georgie-ann expresses contempt for abandoned women and rape victims and assumes they did something to deserve the predicament they’re in and begrudges them the love of
      Christ, the world watches and sees and gets that message loud and clear.

      That message is exactly WHY there are rapists and men who abandon their responsibilities as husbands and fathers. Women who spew THAT message in front of their sons are raising the next generation of rapists.

      Let the world see you land on that filth as hard as you’ll land on someone who doesn’t see rape victims as little sluts who asked for it, and maybe they won’t see you for the — how did georgie-ann put it? — stinking hypocrites you come across as.

    • Lana

      S. Burton. What on earth. That’s your response?
      Never has the Church canonized anyone who promoted war or shooting someone in self defense.
      I have no idea what Georgie Ann wrote or didn’t write, i haven’t read it all.
      I thought this was a productive conversation but it is no longer.

    • mlizzy

      Jennifer wrote an article previously in a similar vein that we still have on our Web site. Both, outstanding! Here’s the link:http://tiny.cc/yvfx5.
      And, today, on RenewAmerica, Matt Abbott features an article about Dr. Kim Hardey. It’s a very touching (suffering!) read for those interested in Catholic teaching on birth-control/NFP: http://tiny.cc/gOvk3.

    • Deborah

      S. Burton,

      I appreciate the willingness to more carefully choose your words.

      That said, it does not change the discrimination and hatred toward those of us conceived in rape that is evident in your arguments which are in favour of murdering us because of how we were conceived.

      And I’m not suppose to take offence to that? Is it my fault how I was conceived? Is my life worth less than other human beings? In your view, what did I do wrong to deserve to be murdered?

      You stated:

      “Deciding to terminate a violently imposed pregnancy is no more premeditated murder than shooting someone in self defense is or returning fire at enemy combatants is.”

      Really? Exactly which violent act did I commit against my mother that she should have murdered me for in self defence?

      Perhaps a preborn baby kicking and squirming about in his/her mother’s womb counts as violence in your books.

    • georgie-ann

      i’ve been referring to MUCH more than the small, but significant (and of course deserving of help, compassion, and healing and aid), percentage of women seeking abortions due to rape,…i’m referring in general to the current broad modern phenomenon of women feeling entitled to practice/engage in (often unwise–definitely uncatholic) voluntary sex under many different kinds of circumstances, with contraception and available-on-demand abortions as part of the game plan,…

      i have only addressed one person on the issue of rape as a factor, and that was the blessed survivor, Deborah,…and that was to praise both her & her mother (& her family),…beautiful name by the way,…

      it’s not “all about” the question of rape,…that’s a deflecting tactic, as far as i’m concerned,…it’s about the question of abortion, killing live human babies,…

    • JC

      S. Burton,

      How about this one? A woman has suffered years of abuse–whether from her parent(s) or spouse or siblings. She has a kid. The kid bears a strong resemblance to the abusive relative. Does the woman have the right to kill the kid because the kid reminds her of the abuse?

      You are grasping at straws and completely failing to understand the Church’s teachings. I also think you really don’t believe the unborn child is a person. You’re focusing on rape, but if rape is wrong, it’s all wrong.

      Killing a child for the father’s sin is not legitimate self-defense.

      As for your question about war: any act of war that directly target civilians is intrinsically evil. There’s a difference between bombing a military intallation and accidentally killing the wife of a soldier who came to see her husband at work, and intentionally bombing a civilian factory.

    • JC

      Never has the Church canonized anyone who promoted war or shooting someone in self defense.

      Uhh, what??
      We’re celebrating one today, St. Thomas Aquinas.
      Then there’s St. Louis IX, “the Crusader.”
      Then there’s St. Joan of Arc.
      Then there’s St. George.
      Then there’s St. Wenceslaus, who is counted a martyr even though he defended himself againt his assailants.
      There are many others, including the one you see in the classified ads of conservative Catholic magazines, the “patron saint of handguns.”

    • S. Burton

      JC – another non-starter. The mother can sever her ties with an already born child without resorting to abortion.

      Deborah, perhaps you’re reading my words through the filther of your own feelings. I have not argued at all in favor of aborting all children who were conceived through rape or incest. I have argued in favor of keeping a legal abortion option available to women who find themselves in that situation.

    • Ray Ingles

      …I have to say, this was a very insightful and cogently-argued article.

      I don’t agree with all the reasoning and conclusions, but I do agree (as do many atheists) that sex is not just about “pleasure and bonding”, and ignoring its reproductive component is an mistake.

      My wife and I put it differently, but we’ll be explaining to our children as they get older: “Before you have sex with someone, think: do I want to be involved with this person for the rest of my life?”

      People do vary, and it’s at least possible that some people can separate sex and love… but even for them, it’s ethically wrong to ignore the ‘risk’ of reproduction.

    • JC

      S. Burton,
      So, the mother *should* be allowed to sever her ties just because the kid looks like an abusive relative?

      You really have a low opinion of women, don’t you? Everyone should be held to the lowest common denominator of virtue?

      As for your reply to Deborah, you miss the point: some may as well be all. I come at abortion from a similar perspective to Deborah’s, as I have a genetic disorder.
      Is the Holocaust less wrong because Hitler only killed *some* Jews? Should it have been OK for Hitler to kill *some* Jews, so long as he didn’t kill “all” Jews. I guess those of us who are lucky enough to make it through the lottery should be glad we’re alive, right?

      But, again, what it really boils down to is you don’t believe people are capable of virtue, and you use feminism as a disguise for that. Both practicing NFP and havingou a large family require great virtue: contraception is a cop-out. Caring for disadvantaged people requires great virtue. Killing them off is an easy out.

      Do you want to be a saint? By your own admission, you don’t. By your own admission, you’d put materialism above your own salvation. I can’t think of a single saint who’d buy that.

      Most saints don’t even approve of the material compromises the Church permits. Discussing the example of her spiritual dreictor, St. Peter of Alacantra, St. Teresa of Avila condemns priests and religious who insist on have nice clean habits instead of putting up with holes and wrinkles.

    • L.

      …is that miss out on converstaions like this becaues I’m sleeping.

      How can a preborn baby be violent? Of course he/she is never intentionally so, and the kicking/sqirming in the womb isn’t much, is it? But about this — when a doctor has told a woman that her uterine walls are exceptionally thin after two c-sections and recommends she not have anymore, and she then she decides to goes ahead and have one more against medical advice, and fortunately everything turns out fine, but she doesn’t want to push her luck further and risk a ruptured uterus.

      So what are her options? Let’s say she’s married. She can use natural family planning, but as she knows from her many friends who use this, it tends to work like a charm if a woman’s periods are regular, but if not, well, she knows many families with a half dozen kids.

      She can abstain from sex entirely so she doesn’t risk another pregnancy, but her husband isn’t going to be thrilled about this. It is likely to have a negative effect on their relationship — not ideal.

      She knows contraception can greatly reduce the chances of another baby, if used correctly, but nothing is 100%, so she has some peave of mind, but…….the possibility of that potentially violent impact of that preborn baby is always there.

      Self-defense? I think so, but I understand why others may not.

      Ray Ingles: That is exactly what I am saying to my own teenage children: “Before you have sex with someone, think: do I want to be involved with this person for the rest of my life?”

      You can TRY to remove the procreative aspect from sex, but it doesn’t always work out as planned.

      Anyway, I was thinking as I was going to sleep last night, whenever I defend abortion rights, I always feel the way I do when I defend pornography. I don’t like it at all — I find it very distasteful — but on First Amendment grounds, I believe that consenting adults should be able to produce, distribute and consume it.

      Same with abortion: I believe women should have the right to remove anything from their bodies that’s detrimental to their health and well-being, but that doesn’t mean I think abortion is desirable, or the best choice in every situation.

    • L.

      I’ve never believed that women have any special “virtue” just because they’re female. Vulnerability is gender-neutral, based on physical strength. Nurturing and compassion is gender-neutral, too.

      And JC, holding everyone — men and women alike — to the “lowest common denominator of virtue” would be a GREAT place to start!

    • Christina

      I’m not sure why my argument “falls apart” just because I disagree that the right to life is inherent and trumps all other rights of the mother.

      But I do agree that we are still a long ways off from providing women the support and options to help them choose life. Why ever should those of us who support abortion rights be “getting out there and fighting to at least restrict abortion?” I think my time and energy are better spent preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place, and offering help to women in crisis pregnancies who DO want to carry to term.

      Your argument falls apart because it is philosophically and morally inconsistent. I hope some day you are able to study and reflect on the meaning of human dignity and the nature of human rights. But let’s not argue about that, because there’s no use. My question about why pro-choice people don’t do more to restrict abortion is based on former comments you made about believing that unborn children are indeed human beings, that the compassionate choice is not to kill them, and that restricting abortion after viability would be a good thing.
      I’ve worked in a lot of crisis pregnancy centers, maternity homes and women’s centers and have found almost no pro-choicers there. But if you are doing more to help women choose life, then that’s truly a good thing and I commend you for that.

      I believe, however, that had the time, energy and resources the Pro-Life Movement has spent over the past several decades been channeled into changing perceptions and mindsets, into providing non-judgmental support for women experiencing difficult pregnancies, into breaking down the divisiveness, the us v. them camps, and the hate on BOTH sides, then it wouldn’t matter if there were free abortion clinics on every acre of the planet

      .

      No doubt about it, the pro-life movement is far from perfect, has made mistakes, and wasted time and efforts. But I’m afraid you don’t know much about the pro-life movement. Most money spent on pro-life efforts goes towards supporting women in difficult pregnancies — pregnancy centers, maternity centers, clinics, medical care, job training, all kinds of things. This is where most pro-lifers spend their time and money.

      And when you believe that a portion of fellow human beings are denied basic rights, and women are being wounded (in various ways) by a violent procedure, there is nothing wrong with trying to change hearts and minds and laws. Not at all. It doesn’t have to be an either-or thing.

      The world is watching this very minute the trial of a pro-lifer who, with the encouragement of the pro-life community, murdered a man in cold blood in a church. Do I think George Tiller was in the right? No. But I don’t think he should have been gunned down by a known madman, a madman tolerated by the pro-life community for years, and a madman egged on by the divisive, contentious rhetoric of the pro-ife community.No doubt that madman thinks he’s a hero, and I’m sure there are a good number of pro-lifers who condsider him a hero.

      These are misinformed comments. Tiller’s killer did not received encouragement from the pro-life community. He was a fringe person, possibly connected to a fringe group, who do not represent the majority of pro-life people. There are very few pro-lifers who consider him a hero. And if you know any, I’d love to hear who they are. These are simply ridiculous claims designed to discredit all pro-lifers.

      Maybe, however, if all those millions and millions of dollars that have gone into printing shrill and hateful tracts, into creating catchy, attention-grabbing slogans, into PR and advertising, etc., had been spent on outreach and care and support for women and their children, more actual lives would have been saved and culural attitudes would have shifted and fewer women would be seeking abortions today.

      Yep, let’s blame all the pro-life people, who spend hours and money and tremendous effort helping women. Why aren’t you grateful for all that pro-lifers do to help women, since you seem to care about the needs of women, and seem to think abortion isn’t the best thing, even though you’re pro-choice? How about a little respect and compassion for the thousands upon thousands of people who do a lot with very little because they care about women and children? Sure, there are some people out there who use shrill and hateful tactics. but they are not the majority, nor do they represent so many grassroots people working to help women and children. What are most pro-choice people doing to help pregnant women? Very little, unfortunately. Because abortion is their answer for a woman with an unplanned pregnancy. That’s what they work on. An industry that makes billions of dollars. Pro-life efforts make zilch. No money to made there.

      JC – another non-starter. The mother can sever her ties with an already born child without resorting to abortion.

      A pregnant woman can severe her ties too, about 7 months after finding herself pregnant. There are lines of people waiting with open arms wanting to be parents.

      Deborah, thanks for speaking up here. S Burton and others no doubt mean very well, but they believe you didn’t have a right to your life because of the circumstances of your conception. Sad, but true.

    • georgie-ann

      it seems to me that the ones who are using rape as their main focus and argument, are taking up a particularly “thorny” issue with the hopes of pushing that one through the gate–at least a little bit,…& once they hopefully manage to squeak out some concessions on that point, then the next step would be to press the other situations on through right behind it,…there are always going to be some kind of uncomfortable/difficult heart-rending circumstances potentially attached to many of the stories,…

      & i really don’t get how the (horrible) things that may be going on in another country, will have any relevant or direct bearing on the laws and the situations we are dealing with right here in America,…

      i know i might seem to be kind of “old-fashioned,” but i’m not really all that stupid or lacking in life experience, to fall for these kinds of bogus scenarios,…

    • Deborah

      S. Burton,

      Actually, I am quite clear, as are others here, of what you are saying.

      In a nutshell: you are arguing for murdering preborn babies like me who were conceived in rape because you think I am “a progeny of a rapist” and committed an act ofviolence against my mother.

      Question: Can you explain what violent act I committed against my mother for which she could have killed me in self defence?

      In regards, to all or some, whenever someone chooses to discriminate and argue for the murder of a certain group of innocent human beings, whether they are speaking of one or a hundred of those human beings doesn’t make that way of thinking any more or less disgusting and evil.

    • Christina

      How can a preborn baby be violent? Of course he/she is never intentionally so, and the kicking/sqirming in the womb isn’t much, is it? But about this — when a doctor has told a woman that her uterine walls are exceptionally thin after two c-sections and recommends she not have anymore, and she then she decides to goes ahead and have one more against medical advice, and fortunately everything turns out fine, but she doesn’t want to push her luck further and risk a ruptured uterus.

      First, of all, we have to accept the fact that pregnancy does’t come with a bonafide 100% safety record. It has never been that way. There are risks. Even for a healthy, happily married woman who wants her child.

      If a woman’s health will be endangered by a pregnancy, she should try and avoid getting pregnant in a way that does not harm her body, her spirit or her relationship/marriage. If she becomes pregnant, everything should be done to assist her health and to get the child to viability. If in helping her, the baby dies, that is not an abortion. Additionally, you can not make laws based on the kinds of cases you raise because they are such a small percentage of women who choose abortion.

      You can TRY to remove the procreative aspect from sex, but it doesn’t always work out as planned.

      The procreative aspect can never be removed from sex, unless you sterilize yourself or one person is infertile or the woman is part menopause. We need to get it through our brains that sex and reproduction go together — we may not like it, but that’s nature’s design. We need to work with nature, not against it. We keep trying to pretend they can be completely separated but they can’t. Know anyone who got pregnancy on the pill? I know dozens.

      Anyway, I was thinking as I was going to sleep last night, whenever I defend abortion rights, I always feel the way I do when I defend pornography. I don’t like it at all — I find it very distasteful — but on First Amendment grounds, I believe that consenting adults should be able to produce, distribute and consume it.

      Same with abortion: I believe women should have the right to remove anything from their bodies that’s detrimental to their health and well-being, but that doesn’t mean I think abortion is desirable, or the best choice in every situation.

      Not even going to tackle the pornography issue as it takes things in a totally different direction, but if abortion is not desirable, why not? What makes it not desirable? What makes it not the best choice? If it’s because there’s human being in there, then what you’re saying is that you believe it’s okay to kill small, helpless, dependent human beings. And since that’s what I think you’re saying, I wish you’d just be clear about it. Few women get abortions for health reasons. And simply not wanting to be pregnant, or having more substantial hardships that you could be helped through, does not warrant killing someone. The “I wouldn’t do it, but I can’t tell you not to do it.” simply doesn’t work as an argument because you wouldn’t say that about anything else.. murdering a neighbor, stealing a car, robbing a bank, etc. There are some absolutes in moral issues. A human being either has rights or it doesn’t. Killing an innocent person is either right or wrong. The circumstances surrounding a situation may make someone more or less responsible but it doesn’t change basic truths.

      I have a question for you: Could anything change your mind about abortion? If so, what?

    • S. Burton

      JC,

      You’re all over the place logically…

      What point are you trying to make? You created the wacky scenario where a woman would want to rid herself of her child when it began to resemble her abusive parents, not me. I pointed out that it wasn’t an analogy since she could relinquish her parental rights. Now you’re claiming _I_ have asserted that a woman who discovers her child looks just like her abusive parents absolutely should relinquish her child.

      That’s pretty blatantly dishonest of you.

      It’s also pretty hypocritical since I imagine you believe a woman who feels she cannot parent a child she becomes pregnant with should relinquish her child for adoption.

      Should I be as dishonest as you and now assert that you have aruged in favor of women being forced to raise a child they would otherwise place up for adoption?

      Christina,

      You, also, are being dishonest and are putting words in my mouth. I would not deny Deborah’s right to life. However, given that we cannot separate out the pregnancy from the child, and the pregnancy may indeed be an unbearable furthering of the violence of rape for the rape victim, I believe the woman in question should have the option to obtain a legal abortion.

      It’s the _pregnancy_, the nine-month long physical burden of bearing the child and then delivering the child that is the violence, not the child itself, and the pregnancy was violently and criminally imposed upon the women by the rapist against her will. Ridding herself of this second act of violence is the primary intent. The loss of life is a secondary, unintentional result, much in the way the removal of, say, a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy ends a life unintentionally, or much in the way bombing a suspected terrorist hideout might unintentionally kill an innocent bystander.

    • L.

      Deborah, why are you harping on S. Burton, when she clearly explained her point of view? Abortion is legal — ALL mothers have the legal right to it, whether they were raped or not. Saying that women should have the right to an abortion as saying ALL babies should be aborted. Your mother made her choice — a very beautiful, loving choice — but it’s not one that all of us believe women should be legally mandated to do.

      Christian, you know, no one has ever asked me, “Could anything change your mind about abortion?” I honestly don’t believe anything could — remember, I was once a pro-life teenager.

      And I think you are correct that “The ‘I wouldn’t do it, but I can’t tell you not to do it’ simply doesn’t work as an argument.” But the fact is, I WOULD do it — when I pick my OB/GYNs, one of the questions I ask them is whether they perform abortions, because I never want to be the patient of a pro-life doctor. I clearly don’t see abortion as a moral absolute, if there are cases in which I would have one myself. You clearly do — I GET this. You think the embyos I have possibly killed with contraception over the years are the moral equivalent of Susan Smith drowning her kids in her car, and nothing I say is going to make you think otherwise.

      Why is abortion not desirable? Because an unwanted pregnancy is not desirable, and should be prevented in the first place to the extent possible — abstinence for those who choose it, contraception for those who don’t (and by the way, mutiple forms of barrier contraception, used together, can bring the odds of conception WAAAAAY down, and have the advantage of not messing up the woman’s body with chemicals). Abortion is a form of birth control, but it’s not the best one, even if you have no moral qualms about it — it’s expensive, invasive and risky, and there are better ways to avoid having unwanted babies. Oops, some people on this thread hate that term — okay, I’ll say, unwanted pregnancies instead. You know what I mean.

      I always say, one woman’s blessing is another woman’s curse.

    • L.

      Weird — some words dropped out of the top paragraph of my to comment.

      Should have been: “Saying that women should have the right to an abortion is not the same as saying ALL babies should be aborted.”

      When people find out that I am not pro-life, some of them say to me, “My mother wasn’t married when she had me! That means you think I should have been aborted!”

      I’ve also had people say to me, “Oh, you’re not pro-life, so you must LOVE what they’re doing in China, where they force women to abort after having one child.”

      These people assume that everyone who is pro-choice must be pro-abortion, at all times. Black and white, either you believe in EVERY baby’s right to life, or you must believe in killing EVERY baby, or you won’t be satisfied.

    • JC

      S. Burton,

      You’re the one whose position is whacky. I’m just pointing out why.

      As Deborah said: what has the baby done that the baby deserves to be murdered???

      You contend that abortion of a child conceived in rape is an act of self-defense. Deborah and I are just asking you, in various ways, why it constitutes self-defense? What harm does the baby pose to the mother? The usual argument in favor of your position is that the child will remind the mother of the rapist. So, I’m asking you, if a mother has the right to abort a chld that looks like her rapist, does she have the right to abort a child that looks like her abuser? But now you’ve shifted from “self defense” to “children they can’t take care of”. Which one is is it?

    • S. Burton

      Wow, JC…that’s really beyond the pale when it comes to being dishonest.

      The baby did nothing to the mother in the rape question, just as the baby did nothing to the mother in an ectopic pregnancy situation.

      It’s the _pregnancy_ that’s the issue in both these cases.

      How can a woman abort her baby because it looks like her abusive parents…?? Think about that one for a minute, will ya?

      No, I haven’t shifted the basis for my argument in the rape scenario from self-defense to inability to raise a child. That was a sarcastic response to the patently false statements you made about my stance.

    • Christina

      Christina,

      You, also, are being dishonest and are putting words in my mouth. I would not deny Deborah’s right to life. However, given that we cannot separate out the pregnancy from the child, and the pregnancy may indeed be an unbearable furthering of the violence of rape for the rape victim, I believe the woman in question should have the option to obtain a legal abortion.

      It’s the _pregnancy_, the nine-month long physical burden of bearing the child and then delivering the child that is the violence, not the child itself, and the pregnancy was violently and criminally imposed upon the women by the rapist against her will. Ridding herself of this second act of violence is the primary intent. The loss of life is a secondary, unintentional result, much in the way the removal of, say, a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy ends a life unintentionally, or much in the way bombing a suspected terrorist hideout might unintentionally kill an innocent bystander.

      First, don’t know where I was being dishonest and putting words in your mouth. But sorry, if so.

      I believe you deny Deborah’s right to life by upholding her mother’s right to take her life. You cant have it both ways.

      As for pregnancy and birth being a second act of violence, that is frankly ridiculous. Pregnancy and birth can be arduous and difficult, scary and painful. but they are not violent acts. Abortion IS a violent act. In the case of rape, aborting a child is a 2nd act of violence. Pregnancy and birth is not a 2nd act of violence. At the very least, you do not understand the definition of violence. The loss of life is not a secondary, unintentional result — what are you smoking here?? An abortion directly, intentionally targets the unborn life. In doing so, the mother is no longer pregnant because these two things are inseparable. I think you’ve got your categories of things all mixed up. WHich is part of the problem here.

      Christina, you know, no one has ever asked me, “Could anything change your mind about abortion?” I honestly don’t believe anything could — remember, I was once a pro-life teenager.

      Teenage years not withstanding, never say never :-)

      And I think you are correct that “The ‘I wouldn’t do it, but I can’t tell you not to do it’ simply doesn’t work as an argument.” But the fact is, I WOULD do it — when I pick my OB/GYNs, one of the questions I ask them is whether they perform abortions, because I never want to be the patient of a pro-life doctor. I clearly don’t see abortion as a moral absolute, if there are cases in which I would have one myself. You clearly do — I GET this. You think the embyos I have possibly killed with contraception over the years are the moral equivalent of Susan Smith drowning her kids in her car, and nothing I say is going to make you think otherwise.

      What’s the same about Susan Smith and any woman who knowingly kills her unborn child is that both were killing human beings. The circumstances, the children’s developmental ages, the way their lives were taken — all very different, obviously. But both are wrong because they take the lives of real, unique, unrepeatable human lives.

      As for me… if you asked me the same question I asked you, I would say that the one thing that would change my mind about abortion is if I became convinced that the unborn being is not a human. If it isn’t human life, it isn’t a person, and therefore has no right to life that trumps the mother’s right to autonomy.

      I am grieved, of course, to hear you would have an abortion. Especially when you seem to be a reflective person of good will who is probably very capable of finding the resources and strength to give a child his or her life.

      Why is abortion not desirable? Because an unwanted pregnancy is not desirable, and should be prevented in the first place to the extent possible…

      I thought you had said you believe the unborn child is human.? How do you square that with your views? How do you take the position that it’s okay to kill some human beings under certain circumstances?

    • L.

      Christina, the very defintion of being “NOT pro-life” is that indeed, it is okay to kill some human beings under certain circumstances. I think of abortion as “justifiable feticide,” if you will — but its circumstances are worth preventing, in exactly the same way war is worth preventing. (I’m not a pacifist, either, as you might have guessed.)

    • L.
    • L.
    • S. Burton

      I believe you deny Deborah’s right to life by upholding her mother’s right to take her life. You cant have it both ways.

      As for pregnancy and birth being a second act of violence, that is frankly ridiculous. Pregnancy and birth can be arduous and difficult, scary and painful. but they are not violent acts. Abortion IS a violent act. In the case of rape, aborting a child is a 2nd act of violence. Pregnancy and birth is not a 2nd act of violence. At the very least, you do not understand the definition of violence. The loss of life is not a secondary, unintentional result — what are you smoking here?? An abortion directly, intentionally targets the unborn life. In doing so, the mother is no longer pregnant because these two things are inseparable. I think you’ve got your categories of things all mixed up. WHich is part of the problem here.

      I uphold the right for a violently impregnated woman to end a pregnancy visited upon her by a criminal against her will. If the secondary effect of that action is the death of that child, that’s unfortunate, but no more unfortunate than the loss of life due to removal of ectopic pregnancies or than the loss of the lives of innocent bystanders in war.

      In the case of rape, if a rape victim finds the burden of pregnancy and childbirth unbearable under the circumstances of her situation, her option to terminate the further violence to her person (the nine months of pregnancy, delivery, all the physical risks a pregancy and delivery entail, all the psychological risks forcing her to undergo this pregancy aginst her will entails, the near-year-long interruption of her life, the post-partum psychological risks, etc.) trumps the unborn child’s right to life.

      Does this mean I believe she MUST abort her child? No. But the option should be available to her.

      Does this mean I hate and discriminate against those who were conceived in rape? No.

    • L.

      Christina, I believe I would change my view of abortion if it were possible to extract embryos without killing them — if this procedure were possible and readily available, with minimal risks to the women. It wouldn’t be an abortion in that case, just a transfer from original host mother to another host mother/artificial womb.

      But if such technology were ever to be possible, I’d bet my life’s savings that the Catholic Church would think of a reason to condemn it! smilies/smiley.gif

    • L.

      S. Burton, I get what you’re saying — saying women who were raped should have the right to an abortion is not the same as saying ALL babies conceived in rapes should be aborted.

      I think people are arguing, though, that by saying SOME women can have abortions in some circumstances is the same as saying SOME babies don’t have an inherent right to life, while other babies conceived in different circumstances DO have this right.

    • georgie-ann

      i guess i don’t see, then, how the “pro-choice women,” who seem to carry around such a resentful animus about their “enforced” design as nurturers of life, could really have a true and trusting love for the God who has created them as they are,…they always sound to me like they’re perpetually “at war,”…

    • KT

      For L:
      You are LARGELY mistaken about needing a regular period to follow NFP. Learn more:
      http://www.creightonmodel.com/

      Accepting the Catholic Church’s truths on the sanctity of life from conception to natural death requires one to be humble and submissive to the Church. Jesus laid down his life for us. HE is our example if we are to be saints; And God wants us all to be saints.

      Glorious Saint Michael, Prince of the heavenly hosts, who stands always ready to give assistance to the people of God; who fought with the dragon, the old serpent, and cast him out of heaven, and now valiantly defends the Church of God that the gates of hell may never prevail against her, I earnestly entreat you to assist me also, in the painful and dangerous conflict which I sustain against the same formidable foe.
      Be with me, O mighty Prince! that I may courageously fight and vanquish that proud spirit, whom you, by the Divine Power, gloriously overthrew, and whom our powerful King, Jesus Christ, has, in our nature, completely overcome; so having triumphed over the enemy of my salvation, I may with you and the holy angels, praise the clemency of God who, having refused mercy to the rebellious angels after their fall, has granted repentance and forgiveness to fallen man. Amen.

    • L.

      KT, I’ve actually read up quite a bit on NFP. Unless you can always win at the game of “Find The Egg,” it seems like a game of chance to me.

      By the way, the Church teaches that using NFP with a contraceptive intent is immoral, unless pregnancy would present a grave danger — and “grave” is quite vague. Since I live in a developed country and am statistically likely to survive another live birth despite the risks, some would say I don’t even qualify to use it.

    • Christina

      I uphold the right for a violently impregnated woman to end a pregnancy visited upon her by a criminal against her will. If the secondary effect of that action is the death of that child, that’s unfortunate, but no more unfortunate than the loss of life due to removal of ectopic pregnancies or than the loss of the lives of innocent bystanders in war.

      As I said, your categories are confused. There is no “secondary effect” in an abortion. Ending a pregnancy is synonymous with killing a fetus or embryo. They are identical. A secondary effect implies that an act directly intended to do one thing also has other unintended consequences. Abortion is one act — the intentional and direct killing and removing of a human being. There is one intention, there is one act. If you don’t see this difference, there is nothing more to say here.

      You don’t seem to want to acknowledge that abortion is a violent act — against an unborn human being, and against a woman. It may be an act of violence you support, but it’s a violent act all the same. I don’t need to go into the grim details of an abortion to prove my point.

      I certainly hope you don’t expect someone like Deborah to not react strongly to your views. You may not hate people conceived in rape, but you ARE discriminating against them by your views, because you believe that they are a group of people who potentially deserve the death penalty for someone else’s crime. Not only is the woman victimized once, she is victimized twice in abortion. I stand by my comments that you are using the word violence incorrectly.

      Christina, I believe I would change my view of abortion if it were possible to extract embryos without killing them — if this procedure were possible and readily available, with minimal risks to the women. It wouldn’t be an abortion in that case, just a transfer from original host mother to another host mother/artificial womb.

      But if such technology were ever to be possible, I’d bet my life’s savings that the Catholic Church would think of a reason to condemn it! smilies/smiley.gif

      I would support that, too. Hey, we agree on something ! :-)
      And don’t be too quick to bet all your savings. I think the Church may well accept that if it ever came to pass.

    • S. Burton

      L.,

      Yes and no.

      It’s not that I don’t think every unborn child has an inherent right to life, it’s that I think some situations place that unborn child’s right to life beneath another human being’s right to their life.

      But I’m not as broadly pro-choice as you are — I am not comfortable with a general abortion-on-demand option. I think only a few, rare, extreme situations place the mother’s right to the integrity of her life above her unborn child’s right to life.

      No one has the right to tell a human being they MUST harm themselves in order to preserve another’s life.

      Many people choose to sacrifice themselves in one form or another in order to save or optimize another’s life, but it’s the autonomy — the choice — that’s the point here.

      It’s a slippery slope we go down when we, as a society, force rape victims to carry children which were violently forced into their bodies by way of a criminal act — a criminal act which stole their dignity, their innocence, their trust, their bodies and, when they become pregnant, their very DNA.

      What’s next — preserving the elderly’s right to life by forcing people into organ donation? After all, Grandma has an inherent right to life and it won’t _kill_ someone to donate a kidney or a piece of their liver or their blood, skin, etc.

    • L.

      Christina, I think S. Burton is saying that INTENT matters is an abortion — and I agree. You say it doesn’t matter, which is fair enough, since you are consistently pro-life.

      But is a woman having an abortion to spare herself the potentially life-threatening trauma of pregnancy and birth? If so, the baby is collateral damage, as in a war. Some say, STILL WRONG — fair enough, but not everyone agrees on that.

      Or is a woman having an abortion because she hates her baby and wants it dead? Even in the sci-fi scenario where intact, live removal and transplantation into another host would be possible, is her intent simply to KILL the embryo? That’s different.

      The result is the same, but the intent is different. You say it doesn’t matter — fair enough. Not everyone agrees. It’s like arguing whether a certain war is a “just” war or not — there’s going to be disagreement, even among people who aren’t pacifists.

      By the way, my own mother always said that if she were raped, she would have carried to term. One day, I realized that meant that if I were ever raped, she would force ME to carry her grandchild to term, too! My parents would probably have sent me away to gestate in some locked facility, correctly suspecting that I myself would not have wanted to go through with. Thank god, it never happened.

    • S. Burton

      [quote=Christina
      You don’t seem to want to acknowledge that abortion is a violent act — against an unborn human being, and against a woman. It may be an act of violence you support, but it’s a violent act all the same. I don’t need to go into the grim details of an abortion to prove my point.

      Abortion is a violent act. It may be the lesser of two violences in the rape situation. Only the woman in question and her medical/psychological caretakers can know for sure.

      I’m not denying that an unborn child is a human, and I’m not denying that abortion is an extreme act. I’m juxtaposing the abortion to the other violent act — imposing pregnancy upon a woman against her will. You want graphic details here? Hunting her down, physically restraining, perhaps beating or torturing her in a sadistic twist on foreplay, binding her or trapping her, ripping her clothes off, exposing her most private body parts, forcing her legs open, brutally and violently thrusting an erect penis into her repeatedly, breaking perhaps for a little sodomy and/or additional beating and torture, ejaculating into her, perhaps also leaving a disease or two behind, incurable, maybe even fatal diseases, and then kicking her to the curb to hopefully be found before she dies or sustains permanent physical or neurological damage.

      But, hey, that sick bastard got her pregnant, so now the Catholic Church is going to force her into nine more months of physical bondage and emotional, mental and spiritual suffering and the pain and risk of delivery. And she has NO choice but to suffer that further violence upon her person because the Pope said so, nyah nyah, get over it, stop whining, because after all, you’re damaged goods now and not worth being spared this suffering and pain and a more pure and holy woman than you wants your baby because she can’t have one.

      Right.

      I’ve got your position down just fine, Christina, and I sure am using the word violence correctly.

    • L.

      Sorry, S. Burton, I didn’t mean to be arguing on your behalf up there.

      I don’t know how “broadly pro-choice” I am. Surely I am when it comes to laws, but perhaps not so much when it comes to individual cases. Just because I think something should be legal doesn’t mean I think it’s desirable.

    • L.

      I have a daughter — she’ll be 13 on Sunday. She just started her period in the summer. She is still physically very tiny. She is not yet interested in boys — more interested in her stuffed dogs.

      Reading S. Burton’s comment above made me ill. But I know it does happen just like that.

      If it happened to my daughter, yes, I would give her the choice of aborting. If she chose to carry to term, I would do all I could to help her raise the baby.

      If doctors told her that a pregnancy would endanger her tiny body, and she still wanted to carry to term, I would do nothing to interfere, except make sure that she fully understood the risls.

      And obviously, I hope it’s a choice we never face.

    • JC

      S. Burton,

      *I’m* being dishonest?

      “The pregnancy is the real issue” is about as dishonest as it comes.

      The baby is the issuee. Abortion is the killing of an unborn baby.

      The baby is the issue, not the pregnancy.

      That’s like the slave-holder saying, “My cotton crop is the issue; not the liberties of the black people.”
      The Nazi saying, “my universal health care is the issue, not the Jews.”
      The Rubella vaccinator saying, “My kid’s health is the issue, not the babies that were killed to make the vaccine!”

    • KT

      L.-
      There are many different methods of NFP. Creighton Model/NaPro Technology is very far from “find the egg.” I’m sure you are an open-minded, progressive person to actually learn more.

      Trust & surrender…

      How silly we people are to think we know more than HIM.

      St. Michael, Pray for us!

    • S. Burton

      JC,

      You’re being dishonest when you attribute statements to me that I never made.

      Yes, abortion is the killing of an unborn child. In some rare and extreme circumstances, that killing is justified, it is the secondary, unintentional, unavoidable result of preventing further violence to another human being who had that child forced into her body brutally and violently.

      It has nothing to do with slavery, and we all know the old rule about dragging Hitler into arguments.

      Your comments are completely thoughtless and illogical. You’re clearly not reading anything I’ve written and are just spewing boilerplate rhetoric at the strawman you’ve created in my stead.

    • S. Burton

      L.,

      I think we share common ground in the belief that abortion-on-demand is preferable to blanket criminalization of abortion, even though we ourselves believe it’s a last resort in extreme situations.

      And I apologize for the graphic rape scene, but rape and nine months of forced pregnancy IS extremely violent, more physically violent than abortion, actually, and a form of violence that lasts for a very, very long time, perhaps even a lifetime.

    • Deborah

      S. Burton,

      People will say they don’t discriminate and hate however their words prove otherwise, as in your case. It’s impossible to argue for the legal murder of certain babies because they were conceived in rape on one hand, and then on the other hand state you don’t discriminate against and hate those babies. You are either fooling yourself or lying. Perhaps some soul searching is in order.

      Finally, an answer was provided for the alleged violence I imposed on my mother:

      “It’s the _pregnancy_, the nine-month long physical burden of bearing the child and then delivering the child that is the violence, not the child itself,”

      Where did you get that definition of violence? You must have made that up. Refering to carrying and giving birth to a child as violence is absurd. And to murder a child for that is beyond absurd, it’s plainly hateful.

    • Christina

      S Burton,

      Wow, seems like a lot of anger there.

      You know, when a rapist rapes, he does not intend to plant a baby, but to commit a violent crime against a woman. I can’t help but think you’re speaking from some personal pain or experience here. You don’t need to explain rape in detail to me — I am acquainted with it.

      Also, I never brought up the Catholic Church – in fact, I said in one of my first comments here that this was a human rights issue, and had nothing to do with the Catholic faith or any other religious faith for that matter. Clearly you have issues with “the Church,” but that’s a whole different matter. There are plenty of pro-life people who are not Catholic, and not even religious.

      Pro-choice people often forget that pro-life people really do care about the needs and well-being of pregnant women. Many pro-lifers have had abortions and experienced rape and incest. Many know the hardships of pregnancy, birth, raising kids, poverty, job loss, abandonment by partners, etc. Which is why the majority of pro-lifers’ work is with women in crisis pregnancy and maternal care.

      You clearly care about women in distress as well. Perhaps you’ve been there. Or someone you know. I do understand why women in distress would want and even choose an abortion. I don’t believe a woman ever NEEDS an abortion, however.

      I’m glad we at least agree on restrictions for abortions.

      L, a word about intent: Intent does matter. But it can be hard to measure. Your intentions don’t change the morality of something, however, it just determines your culpability.

      So, for example, Person A kills his neighbor in cold blood because he hates the neighbor out of jealousy, and person B kills his neighbor because he’s on a drug that makes him go crazy one day. The neighbors have both been killed, and it was wrong, but the intent and therefore the culpability, are different. And, we treat these differently in the law, and with the punishment metered out. But we never say, someone wasn’t killed , and we never deny their humanity in the law, and we never ignore it and pretend the intent is all that matters. Someone died. Someone who should not have died. Someone’s life was robbed forever. (I am not trying to draw a great parellel with abortion in the example above, but to make a point about how intent doesn’t make something moral or immoral in and of itself.)

      This is why I don’t support criminalizing women for abortion. (Plus the fact that they are rarely the ones doing the actual killing.) But I also believe the law should protect all persons’ fundamental rights. And should pay special attention to the most vulnerable and voiceless. Women are very vulnerable, too, but they are not as helpless and unable to fend for themselves as an unborn child. Most women, with the right amount of support and assistance, can make it through. Plenty do and find less guilt and fear and emotional scarring afterwards. The unborn have no one to help them, but one person.

      Abortion affects women tremendously. It is often seen as the lesser of two evils, but gets paid for down the line in the form of all kinds of things — infertility, guilt, shame, depression, rage, sexual problems, and psychological scaring. Sometimes these effects take a while to materialize. There are grave risks to abortion, and not enough people are willing to openly talk about them.

    • L.

      I don’t know, Deborah — if my daughter were raped and I permitted her to abort, it wouldn’t be because I hated the baby that would have been born if she carried to term. Quite the contrary, in fact.

      Ever watch a c-section? It’s pretty violent — lots of pulling and tugging, with the baby kicking, and blood spurting everywhere. In some ways, watching mine (with a mirror) WAS like watching the doctors wage war upon my body, against my narrow pelvis that wasn’t going to allow the babies go out into the world.

      So much for relying on nature! smilies/wink.gif

    • S. Burton

      Deborah,

      I don’t hate you at all. You can believe this or not, but that’s the truth.

      I don’t hate or discriminate against children who are conceived in rape any more than I hate or discriminate against children conceived and then implanted in a fallopian tube, or children who are conceived while the mother is fighting cancer.

      I recognize that there are extreme circumstances in which a woman has a legitimate right to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy that may severly harm her or kill her.

      That does not translate into my hating children conceived under any of those circumstances should their mothers continue the pregnancies successfully (in the case of ectopic pregnancy, this is impossible).

      That’s really all I can say to you at this point. If you need to believe that I hate you, I can’t stop you from fulfilling that need, but that’s _you_, not me.

    • Deborah

      S. Burton stated: “but rape and nine months of forced pregnancy IS extremely violent, more physically violent than abortion, actually, and a form of violence that lasts for a very, very long time, perhaps even a lifetime.”

      Ok, now you made that up, too. Study, after study, prove you wrong here. Furthermore, I have a number of friends who were either conceived in rape, or conceived a child in rape, and they would all disagree with your presumptions, including the women who were raped and then had their baby murdered by abortion.

      Studies show that women who had an abortion after conceiving a baby in rape are more traumatized by an abortion than the rape. What are they in counselling for years later? The abortion not the rape.

      Also, the studies show that most women who conceive a baby in rape choose not to murder their baby since they do not want to victimize their child like they have been victimized.

      To be better informed, I would recommend reading this book and visiting a website where you can read about real people who were conceived in rape, and women who conceived a child in rape. Perhaps you will gain compassion for all human beings.

      Victims and Victors: http://www.afterabortion.org/Victims/index.htm

      Conceived in Rape Testimonials: http://www.rebeccakiessling.co…nrape.html

    • S. Burton

      Christina,

      This is a Catholic venue, and many posters have referred to the Church’s teaching on abortion, hence my references to the Church. Outside of their position on abortion in the context of rape and incest (they do allow for abortion in situations where it’s the life of the mother v. the life of the child, however) and a couple of minor disagreements with relatively unimportant traditions, I have no issue with the Church.

      My position on the rape/abortion issue is clear, as is yours. We’re not either of us going to persuade the other at this point, so we’ll have to leave it at that.

    • L.

      Deborah, yes, let’s talk reality.

      The validity of your own experience, and experiences of your aquaintances, does not negate the equally valid experience of others. Your personal experience with this subject does not give you the final word on it, and the ability to make decisions for others because you insist you know what’s “best” for us in every situation in which you see some similarity to your own.

      You remind me very much of women I know who urge me to stop using contraception, insisting they know what is “best” for me and my husband’s marital bond, based on their own choices and experiences.

    • S. Burton

      Deborah,

      I’ve been giving you the benefit of the doubt for a while now, in spite of the fact that my BS alarm as been going off big time since the first time you popped up.

      I can’t prove you’re a fraud, but I will say that your words are not lining up with the reality you claim, and that last post is pretty obvious.

      Give it a rest — playing that kind of game is actually pretty sick.

    • Christina

      I’ve been giving you the benefit of the doubt for a while now, in spite of the fact that my BS alarm as been going off big time since the first time you popped up.

      I can’t prove you’re a fraud, but I will say that your words are not lining up with the reality you claim, and that last post . is pretty obvious.

      Give it a rest — playing that kind of game is actually pretty sick.

      That’s crossing a line. Deborah isn’t wrong – I’ve seen those studies myself, and read many testimonies from women in those circumstances. Worked with many, too. You might actually check the info she linked.

    • georgie-ann

      by their fruits you shall know them,…

      i’ve heard it said from a good source that what an abuser repeatedly accuses someone else of doing or being, is what they themselves are actually guilty of,…

    • Meg

      S. Burton: you are mistaken; the Catholic Church does not allow abortions, ever. Even when the mother’s life is at stake. (see St. Gianna Molla)

      L. & S. Burton: I am trying to get to the root of your beliefs here. Do you feel that the Church does not understand the reality of the pain caused by rape? That the Church is insensitive to women’s suffering? That the Church is indifferent to the marriage trials of couples who must avoid sex for extended periods of time (or always) to avoid a life-threatning pregnancy?

      Leaving aside the various opinons of those who accept the teaching of the Church (and within this conversation there have been many), when it comes to the merits of the “100% anti-abortion” stance (where there is no room for exceptions, ever): do you believe that the Church’s arguments behind the teaching are illogical, uncaring or ill-founded? Or something else?

      It appears that you are not convinced that a Church who would deny the option of an abortion to a suffering woman is a cruel Church (at least, in this one area). Have i misread you?

      Just curious.

    • CathEn

      S. Burton: you are mistaken; the Catholic Church does not allow abortions, ever. Even when the mother’s life is at stake. (see St. Gianna Molla)

      This might be a little misleading. While abortion is never allowed, procedures that are necessary to save the life of the mother, but which would indirectly and unintentionally result in the death of the fetus, are in fact licit. From the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01046b.htm):

      Ethics, then, and the Church agree in teaching that no action is lawful which directly destroys fetal life. It is also clear that extracting the living fetus before it is viable, is destroying its life as directly as it would be killing a grown man directly to plunge him into a medium in which he cannot live, and hold him there till he expires.

      However, if medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother’s life, is applied to her organism (though the child’s death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked. Moralists agree that we are not always prohibited from doing what is lawful in itself, though evil consequences may follow which we do not desire. The good effects of our acts are then directly intended, and the regretted evil consequences are reluctantly permitted to follow because we cannot avoid them. The evil thus permitted is said to be indirectly intended. It is not imputed to us provided four conditions are verified, namely:

      – That we do not wish the evil effects, but make all reasonable efforts to avoid them;
      – That the immediate effect be good in itself;
      – That the evil is not made a means to obtain the good effect; for this would be to do evil that good might come of it

    • Meg

      Sorry, I did not mean to be misleading. I actually posted a comment earlier that was longer, but it didn’t show up for some reason.

      Procedures for the sake of terminating the life of a fetus/embroyo are not permitted. But removing the mother’s tubes as in the case of an ectopic pregnancy (where the life of the mother is at risk and there is no hope for the embryo to survie) or other sorts of procedures are allowed because of the reasons listed above.

      Let’s be clear, this is not “abortion.” I wanted to be sure that S. Burton’s comment that the Church does “allow for abortions when it is the mothers life vs. fetus.” was corrected.

      In St. Gianna’s case, there was hope for the baby’s survival (her duaghter did, in fact, survive).

    • JC

      S. Burton,

      You seem to be an excellent mindreader, accusing Deborah of being a liar (I guess you think Gianna Jessen is a liar, too, right?)

      You keep saying that the pregnancy is an “act of violence,” and yet you refuse to explain *why*.

      I don’t care what people say about bringing Hitler into arguments; when an analogy fits, it fits.

      And why not slavery? You’re using the same kinds of arguments slaveholders used: threats to *your* livelihood override the slave/baby’s right to life, etc.

      Another strategy of pro-choicers: to just accuse us of making up our evidence, or “spouting memorized talking points” (probably speaking from experience).

      I don’t know how you define logic, but you’re the one who’s making declarations without explaining your premises.

      Also, you claim to only disagree with the Church on abortion in the case of rape, but up above you state opposition to the Church’s (and Natural Law’s) teachings on contraception, which is not just a “minor tradition,” but a horrible abomination that lies at the root of all our society’s major problems (read C. S. Lewis’s _The Abolition of Man_ and Paul VI’s _Humanae Vitae_ and tell me how they’re wrong about their predictions).

    • JC

      Hi, Meg,

      You’re mostly right, but two clarifications:

      1. St. Gianna Molla was not a case of abortion to save the life of the mother. She declined medical treatments for which harm to the baby would have been an unintended side effect–thus, treatments which the Church would say were permissible. That’s why what she did is an example of heroic virtue, and she’s a saint.

      2. Last year, after the Brazilian excommunication case, the president of the Pontifical Academy for Life (until recently the definitive source on such matters) said an abortion in the case of ectopic pregnancy was OK, using an example. The CDF, when they finally issued a smackdown after several months, noted that the Church has never officially ruled on the ectopic pregnancy procedure, although Judie Brown also says that it falls under the “unintended side effect” situation.

      Which gets us back to the question at hand: how in any way can you say that direct abortion of a baby is an “unintended side effect,” and I still fail to see how the pregnancy or child is an “act of violence” repeating the act of rape.

      And before you start telling me how horrible childbirth is (which only comes off as anti-motherhood/”women are wimps”), how is that more traumatic than the various abortion procedures?

    • Mary

      I am Catholic, but I am not in full communion with the Church for reasons that involve my marriage more than my opinion on social issues like feminism, gender, contraception and abortion.

      Why be Catholic at all? I didn’t pick it — I was born into it, and after years of staying away from mass, I started going again, and got all my kids baptized, too. It would have been eassier to stay away, but I realized it’s part of who I am, for better or for worse.

      Dear L.

      I don’t know if you’re still reading these comments, but I’ve been thinking about your statement above and feel like I want to respond. Take it for what it’s worth, from one sinner to another.

      I was a church-going, contracepting Catholic for years. Contraception was, in my view, vital to many parts of my life and I just sort of “agreed to disagree” with the Church. I too felt like I was Catholic, for better or worse, so I just lived in that limbo and didn’t think about it too much. I won’t go into the details of my conversion, but it was a dramatic event which made me believe, without any doubt, that the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ and the only Church that has complete authority to teach in His name. Ignoring Church teaching is ignoring Christ’s teaching. I spent a lot of time looking into the authority question after I came to this understanding, hoping for a loophole, but I couldn’t find one. The one area of my life where I was in a continual state of rebellion (yes, rebellion) against Church teaching was in using contraception. So, my husband and I (after much discussion) gave it up. I was angry and felt pretty resentful about being painted into a corner by, well, God. But what could I do? We’re talking about God here.

      An amazing thing happened to me, slowly and almost imperceptibly, after I stopped using contraception. My relationship with God went from being like a warm friendship to becoming a passionate love affair. Contraception had rendered me sterile in the spiritual life. I am amazed at how fruitful my spiritual life is now. What happened to me can happen to anyone. It is all grace, an action of God.

      I still have my days where I find it hard to obey the Church on this and other teachings, but I would never, ever give up my love affair for friendship again. God is an amazing lover. I encourage you to invite him to show this side of himself to you if you have not experienced it already.

      God bless. I will be praying for you and your ever-deepending relationship with the Lord and Giver of Life. I pray we meet one day in Heaven.
      Mary

    • JC

      Mary,
      That is an amazing testimony. It is sad how many people say “God isn’t there,” or treat Him as an abstraction, wihtout actually engaging Him.

      While you didn’t go into details, your story reminded me of Joy Davidman Lewis: “for the first time my pride was forced to admit that I was not, after all, ‘the master of my fate’. . . . All my defenses – all the walls of arrogance and cocksureness and self-love behind which I had hid from God – went down momentarily – and God came in.”

    • S. Burton

      JC, it’s not that I think “Deborah” is a liar, it’s that I think “Deborah” is a fictional character.

      “Hitler” is not analagous at all to the very particular situation I’m describing.

      I have, in great, even graphic, detail described how forced pregnancy in a woman who was impregnated against her will by a violent and criminal may be a of that initial act of violence. I have never said pregnancy it and of itself is a violent act.

      I have never once even mentioned contraception, the Church’s teachings on contraception, or called them minor traditions. The minor traditions I did not name but was referring to involve such things as indulgances and relics, which are, theologically speaking, and from the perspective of Catholic teaching _relatively_ minor in that no Catholic is required to participate in such things in order to be a good and faithful Catholic.

      So stop lying about what I’ve said, JC. Next time you want to claim I said something, quote me directly, all the words, and refer to the post by number so we can all see exactly what it is I did say. But, hey, way to change hearts and minds, JC — nothing like being a complete douche-bag to get people to even bother to listen to what you have to say.

      Meg, I do think the Church, the men of the Church, are incapable of understanding that rape is essentially a terrorist act perpetrated against women, and that, in some instances, forcing — forcibly, physically, legally insisting a woman violated by rape and by a pregnancy imposed upon her against her will must bear that child for nine months, further shattering her life, furthering her suffering, perhaps destroying her spirit and her psyche forever, is as great an evil as the original act of rape.

      You have a problem with this, work on a society that breeds rapists, but don’t punish the victims and remain blind to the fact that all kinds of supposedly Christian societies and communities, including the Church, have at one time or another created an atmosphere in which rapist mentalities thrive.

    • S.Burton

      *may be a furthering of the initial act of violence.

    • georgie-ann

      JC & Mary,…those were beautiful comments,…Mary & L., i have really had the same type of experience & revelation that Mary has described,…i believe that these things must be prayed for & done in an attitude of faith and willing (even if grudging) “sacrifice”/offering to God,…but God most surely is a true lover, faithful to His Word, who will prove himself more than faithful to you,…in the case of a woman with a daughter, it could have a very profound effect on the daughter’s attitude to her own sexuality in relationship to herself & God as well,…”no woman is an island,”…

    • georgie-ann

      when epithets and vile descriptions are used and then defended, while spewing accusatory, vile & demeaning sulphur on all those around, i would contend that there is a problem with this very haughty and arrogant and self-righteous volcano itself,…and i do not think the problem will be mitigated today,…

      the witness of the Spirit just is NOT on this stuff that’s being thrown around here,…

    • JC
    • JC

      JC, it’s not that I think “Deborah” is a liar, it’s that I think “Deborah” is a fictional character.

      Same difference. She’s a real person.

      I have, in great, even graphic, detail described how forced pregnancy in a woman who was impregnated against her will by a violent and criminal may be a of that initial act of violence. I have never said pregnancy it and of itself is a violent act.

      It’s a long thread. Maybe I missed it; maybe I read it and didn’t see it as a valid explanation.

      I have never once even mentioned contraception, the Church’s teachings on contraception, or called them minor traditions.

      I apologize here: I was confusing something an anonymous poster said in support of you with somethign you said.

      However, you did say,

      Contraception and abortion didn’t create this division of reproduction and sexual intimacy.

      The minor traditions I did not name but was referring to involve such things as indulgances and relics,

      Those are minor??? I don’t know wwhat Catholic teaching you’ve been reading, but you can’t get to Heaven without indulgences. If you don’t “participate in indulgences,” you don’t pray.

      You know, everyone in this conversation is missing a major, fundamental point, which is what I usually raise in this situation.

      Who made the baby?

      The rapist?
      Or God?
      The odds of any given sexual encounter resulting in pregnancy are erally quite high. First, it has to happen within 5 days before or 48 hours after ovulation. Second, the sperm have to make it past all the natural “filters” of the woman’s body.

      Conception is an act of science, but it is also an act of God.

      Meg, I do think the Church, the men of the Church, are incapable of understanding that rape is essentially a terrorist act perpetrated against women, and that, in some instances, forcing — forcibly, physically, legally insisting a woman violated by rape and by a pregnancy imposed upon her against her will must bear that child for nine months, further shattering her life, furthering her suffering, perhaps destroying her spirit and her psyche forever, is as great an evil as the original act of rape.

      You have a problem with this, work on a society that breeds rapists, but don’t punish the victims and remain blind to the fact that all kinds of supposedly Christian societies and communities, including the Church, have at one time or another created an atmosphere in which rapist mentalities thrive.

    • S. Burton

      Nice back peddle, but I’m not buying.

      “Deborah’s” written words are highly suspect, both statistically speaking, and in light of the reality she claims. Perhaps her IP can be traced and we can decide if she is real, a created character by another poster, a liar, or real. That’s certainly doable,.

      Like I said, all the words, and with post numbers, JC. You have proven yourself dishonest and manipulative on more than one occasion, so you’re going to have to prove a certain level genuine desire to discuss — which includes paying attention to the other side with the same sincerity and seriousness you expect them to pay attention to you — any particular point.

      You most certainly can get into heaven without participating in indulgances, and no one is required to hold any particular position on relics.

      God rapes women to make babies? It’s part of God’s plan to actively engage in an evil act to create good?

      Oh, well, then you’ve pretty much set the ultimate precedent for using abortion to create good when it comes to impregnated rape victims, haven’t you?

      This has all gotten beyond ridiculous. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe, and the dishonesty you’ve treated me with pretty much shows me all I really need to know about you or anything you have to say.

    • Becky Kennedy

      I believe that the majority of people on both sides of the issue really, truly have the best interests of people at heart. Those on one side want to protect children: a commendable goal. Those on the other side want to protect women by ensuring that an unpleasant procedure is safe and accessible, and I believe that is a commendable goal as well.

      Thanks for listening.
      Written by Sarah

      Dear Sarah,
      No, one side does not have “people’s” best interest at heart. And, you are misled that abortions are safe because they are legally accessible. In no way are they any safer than a back alley abortion prior to legalization. Please, do your homework and you will find that this evil always goes hand in hand with a vast array of crimes and sin. It is a highly profitable act & if you follow the money trail you will know how completely money corrupts values. Crimes include not reporting sex with minors, rape, targeting minorities, baby parts sold, misuse of funds, misleading patients, unsanitary conditions, unlicensed workers, many forms of illegal conduct, and on and on. It is the only surgery in the country the providers do not want to fully inform the patient or let see the “growth” or “product of sex.” It is easy to think it is a right or freedom as the words are so often misused, but there IS a right to life in the Constitution and no woman feels freedom in getting an abortion; she feels trapped and encouraged that abortion is the “safe & accessible” answer to the “problem”. There are many life-giving options and immediate & long-term help available for mothers and babies. You yourself called it protecting children”. That “unpleasant procedure” is the painful destruction of another human being. Have you seen the Silent Scream? Look at it on You Tube, if you dare to face the truth. Just because a woman escapes great physical harm when paying another to rip apart the baby growing in the womb, no one can escape the emotional and spiritual toll of choosing death to one’s own unloved child, as an answer to the seeming inconvenience of their creation. Isn’t it “convenient” that those who are ok with abortion are all already born. At one time, at least early on, we are all completely PRO-LIFE. Why do others not have the right to exist? What changed for you?

      Truth is truth, pursue answers, may God help us,
      Becky

    • L.

      I believe that the people addressing me above on the subject of contraception truly have good intentions so I will thank them, and say that I am in a 100% secular marriage so what works for them is not necessarily going to work for us. But thanks, and I am glad you found a way to be closer to God.

      I am not going to weigh in on the subject of rape since I think I’ve said pretty much all I can say.

    • JC

      “Deborah’s” written words are highly suspect, both statistically speaking, and in light of the reality she claims. Perhaps her IP can be traced and we can decide if she is real, a created character by another poster, a liar, or real. That’s certainly doable,.

      If you wish to engage in cyber-stalking, that’s your issue. I know who she is. I don’t know her in person, but she’s a facebook friend, and a full time member of a Catholic apostolate, and she’s about as “real” as anyone is online.

      As for your aspersions about me, I have never been intentionally dishonest in this conversation. I misread one statement as coming from you, even though you made similar statements to the one I misapplied. Otherwise, I have merely stated my opinions on this subject and on your views. It’s easy though to dismiss views that disagree with yours as dishonest.

      You most certainly can get into heaven without participating in indulgances,

      You must have been poorly catechized. Indulgences are the graces you get from prayer and works of self-sacrifice. If you don’t “participate in indulgences,” you don’t pray or engage in acts of self-sacrifice.
      Indulgences are the graces that cut off time in purgatory; therefore, one cannot go straight to Heaven without participating in indulgences.

      and no one is required to hold any particular position on relics.

      Actually, you are. You cannot have a valid Mass without a relic under the altar.

      God rapes women to make babies?

      Now who’s being disingenuous???
      God doesn’t cause the rape, but He does cause the baby. If you don’t believe that, then you don’t believe a) in the human soul, b) that life begins at conception (which is dogma as of _Evangelium Vitae_), and/or c) in divine Providence.

      Which gets us to:

      It’s part of God’s plan to actively engage in an evil act to create good?

      Uh, yeah. That’s what our whole religion is based on.
      God used the evil of the Fall to give us the Redemption. He used the evil of the Crucifixion to give us salvation. He uses the evil of persecution to give us the martyrs. He uses the evil of poverty to give us people who are charitable.

    • S. Burton

      Okay, good — from the horse’s mouth — God ACTIVELY ENGAGES in ACTS OF EVIL in order to attain a good end.

      Gotcha.

      I will use that as my model so I can be as good a Catholic as you from now on. Any time I want to affect a desired good, I am now acting in a perfectly Christian and Catholic manner if I choose to operate through and evil act. So, following your logic (and now God’s!), alleviating the suffering of an impregnated rape victim with an abortion is doing exactly what God would do. So happy to see you finally agree with me!

      Also, you said God plans the conception of babies via rape — that there’s no way a pregnancy via rape could be anything but designed by God’s hand. So that makes God a rapist by proxy.

      Also good to know — conceiving a baby via an evil act is Godly and perfectly Christlike, therefore artificial insemination/implantation of fertilized embryos, etc., is actually sanctioned by God Himself.

      Sooooo….at the end of the day you think you know a lot about indulgances and relics, and that makes you an incredibly holy and devout Catholic (you don’t and it doesn’t), but you’re completely on board with end-justifying-means, cooperating-in-evil methods of attaining a desired good, no matter what (you’re way more progressive and liberal than I am on THAT matter, that’s for sure!)

      You are either incredibly ignorant, incredibly stupid, or both. Not that it matters which, because it all nets out at incredibly wrong.

      You parrot a lot of gobbledygook at people, thinking it makes you look smart and more devout, but it doesn’t. Your refusal to acknowlege, much less thoughtfully consider, any opinion you don’t agree with, and your incredibly poor grasp of the written word add up to dull-witted, self-righteous, ignorant oaf.

      And, that, my dear, is why the pro-lifers will never achieve their goal of the conversion of hearts and minds — because people like you are their front line.

    • L.

      I admit, I, too, wondered if Deborah was real — but this is the Internet. There is no way of knowing if anyone is who he or she says. If Deborah is real, she certainly has an AGENDA, based on her personal experience — don’t we all?

      JC has an agenda, too. If you click on JC’s link to his blog, you will see that he is a bit of an extremist, even by devout Catholic standards [not that I am a qualified judge of 'devout Catholic standards' -- heh].

      S. Burton, it’s funny — I had first pictured you as female. But now I imagine you as male, based on some of your words above.

      [I must say, I am enjoying reading this. It's much better than watching bad Japanese TV.]

    • S. Burton

      Nope, all girl, all the time, and totally girly-girl in real life. I grew up the only girl among six children, though, so I can be pretty tough when I want to be.

      I’m not so far out of your time zone as the east coasters. I’m a California girl, SF to be exact, which I imagine is your home town, given your blog header.

    • TDR

      Wow, there are a lot of comments here!

      I am pro-choice, but I have to say that I think S Burton has been rude, sarcastic and unfair to JC. It is easy in these forums to misunderstand people’s words and need clarification. In JC’s last post, it is perfectly clear that what he meant was that he believes God uses evil to bring out good. S burton, you were open to absolutely nothing JC had to say and very defensive. Perhaps you have trouble being wrong? I guess we all do, but seriously, your tone certainly comes across as mean.

      Even though I disagree with JC’s views, he was mostly polite and seemed to be trying to address and make points. Perhaps you will come to see how closed and judgmental you can be to others who disagree with you. That will never help pro-choice and pro-life sides dialogue together.

    • S.Burton

      Um, okay, “TDR”!

      [smiley=laugh]

    • Tony

      “Okay, good — from the horse’s mouth — God ACTIVELY ENGAGES in ACTS OF EVIL in order to attain a good end. ”

      No. That would be an incorrect reading of what the person you were responding do meant to (or should have) said.

      God works with nature (which has already done its part) and insouls an already existing zygotal state human organism at the moment of its conception. This is not the equivalent to God supposedly actively engaging in an act of evil. The conception of a new person is either morally neutral, or an intrinsic good. Conception, of course, completely distinct from the way in which it was caused, even ‘in vitro’ which the Church deems morally reprehensible, as well as rape.

      Happy sex does not mean a happy baby, nor does sad sex mean a sad baby. In fact the baby is never happy, nor even sad. It simply is a member of the human family, and probably the best example I can think of, of God’s mocking Satan and Evil, by permitting a creature made in His own image to emerge a something good and beautiful from such horrible conditions, transcending it: God’s bringing something good out of evil.

    • S. Burton

      Tony, I know exactly what he thought he meant, and I fully understand that God can bring good from evil. I was being facetious.

      If JC wants to argue against points I’ve made — and they are crystal clear — he/she should take the time to read them and he should refrain from taking snippets of sentences out of context, interspersing them with bits and pieces of unrelated posts and trying to deceive others into thinking I’ve catgegorically stated something I most certainly haven’t.

      My position is clear. It addresses a tiny percentage of pregancies in which two evils are at odds with each other I’ve been very clear on what I believe those two evils are and why, so if you don’t know what I’m talking about, go back and educate yourself.

      If I wouldn’t change my mind about this position earlier, you can bet I won’t change it after that pile of dishonesty, deceit and manipulation perpetrated by one or more (it’s just so hard to tell now,isn’t it?) persons who represent those who would supposedly strive towards conversion of those who believe as I do.

    • L.

      San Francisco…..no, my hometown is in Connecticut, but I left it long ago and have lived most of my adult life in Tokyo. We were in SF through June ’09 for my husband’s overseas job posting. My kids were all at St. Finn Barr, over near Riordan High School — and I am missing SF very much. Sigh….

      I think JC misunderstood your question, “It’s part of God’s plan to actively engage in an evil act to create good?” I think he missed the word “IN.” Sure, God makes good things happen out of bad things, but I don’t think JC meant to say God engages IN bad things himself, and perpetrates evil to achieve a good result.

      At least I hope he didn’t mean to say that…..

      Sorry, it’s kind of sad, I’m sitting here talking to myself about what other people have said. That’s the bane of being in my time zone.

    • JC

      No. That would be an incorrect reading of what the person you were responding do meant to (or should have) said.

      Thank you.

      Conception, of course, completely distinct from the way in which it was caused, even ‘in vitro’ which the Church deems morally reprehensible, as well as rape.

      Don’t forget fornication or adultery.

      S. Burton,

      Just to be certain, I reread all your posts. I wanted to make sure I hadn

    • S. Burton

      Disagreeing with a teaching on a tradition does NOT equate with holding it contempt, JC. When will you stop this particularly odious form of deceit?

      I explained my reasons earlier — short version, small words, here goes again:

      Forcing, FORCING, forcing a woman to bear and give birth to a child that was violently and criminally FORCED into her womb against her will is a continuation of the original act of violence.

      Agree with it or don’t, but don’t you dare claim I haven’t already stated this more than once. Your deliberate deceit is shockingly obvious by now, so don’t even think of pulling that nonsense again.

    • georgie-ann

      .JC, you are certainly NOT an extremist,…your information is exact, extensive, and well-spoken,…just keep in mind the old adage: “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink,”…i suppose that, “you can lead a man into all Truth, but you can’t make him think,” would also apply,…or Shakespeare, “methinks the lady doth protest too much,”…

      there is a scripture somewhere that says, regarding a “murderer” (which is what abortion is, very frankly–and keep in mind, that we are also “judged” by our thoughts and impulses, as in the looking with the eyes with lust impulse = already committing the act in one’s heart), “…with such a one, not to eat,”…very appropriate,…but all will answer to God,..

    • Administrator

      The comments here are starting to get a little too heated — I have edited some for tone and will begin removing offending posts entirely, so please bear our “Rules for Comments” in mind, particularly 1-3. Thanks.

    • L.

      JC is an extremist — an uber-Catholic. He opposes some vaccines because half a century ago, aborted fetal tissue was used to develop them. This is in line with Catholic teaching — I’m not saying it isn’t, or that he’s incorrect. But he certainly follows a more rigid interpretation than most mainstream practicing Catholics. And I somehow doubt he would be offended to hear himself described as an extreme Catholic.

      I also will give him the benefit of the doubt, and presume that he is so wrapped up in his devotions that he doesn’t realize he is missing a lot of the points that S. Burton is making, and that he is not purposely baiting her and getting her riled up to see her reaction for his own enjoyment.

      But what do I know — since I’m not pro-life, I must be Hitler.

    • JC

      L.,

      Thanks, I think.

      We exchanged views on my blog a while back, and I have a certain respect where you’re coming from, which is why I haven’t directly addressed you in this thread. And, yes, I have no problem being described as an “extremist,” except that the word itself is meaningless. Joseph Sobran once wrote a column on that: to secularists, if you actually adhere to your religion and don’t water it down, you’re “extremist.”

      While I believe in Natural Law, I also realize–which often gets me criticized by my fellow “Catholic extremists”–that non-Catholics have to be given a certain benefit of the doubt on some moral issues the same as with a Catholic. But a Catholic should be held to a higher standard. “Of those to whom much has been given, much will be expected,” said Jesus. “We are all called to be great saints,” said Mother Angelica.

      So, yes, I am not “baiting” S. Burton, and I am also not “missing” anything. She has stated–repeatedly–a position that makes absolutely no sense to me or to Deborah, Georgia-Ann, etc., and we would like to know *why* she thinks the way she does, what the principles are from which she derives her conclusion, but she apparently thinks that restating the conclusion is argument enough. This is something I call the “three strikes” rule in online debate, and it has been passed a while ago.

      It is most certainly not about “my enjoyment.” It’s about love for God and love for neighbor, and a passion for salvation of souls.

    • S. Burton

      JC, you either lack the mental capacity to process what I’ve written or you are dleiberately pretending to “miss” it in order to attack me. Those are the only two possible explanations for your behavior.

      That the position I hold and have explained REPEATEDLY makes no sense to you and a handful of highly suspect internet “personalities” doesn’t mean I haven’t explained upon what principals I have based my position.

      But, yes, three strikes and you’re out in my book, too. You have deliberately misrepresented my words every time you have pretended to want to understand where I’m coming from, therefore you aren not to be believed or trusted at this point and nothing you can say now can undo what you’ve already done.

      Sorry, L., I can’t play both sides of the fence for entertainment purposes. I don’t say things I don’t mean and I don’t tolerate dishonesty, so I don’t give people the benefit of the doubt once they’ve shown me exactly who and what they are.

      You’re right. This supposed “discussion” was over before it began. There is no room for dialogue or discussion with these people. I refuse to let their poisonous, hateful brand of Catholicism taint the truth and beauty of what Catholicism actually is, nor allow them to lie about or make a mockery of my relationship with God or His with me. God is REAL, you know, not just an intellectual construct you can whip out to hammer someone with on some stupid online forum so you can feed your ego by beating someone up in some bogus “discussion”.

    • Deborah

      I wasn’t going to come back to this discussion, however, after being notified of accusations of being a fake..well, I’m here for the sake of defending the lives of innocent preborn babies and I wish to be taken seriously.

      A basic bio:

      1. My name is Deborah Morlani.

      2. I am Roman Catholic, a wife, and a mother of 5 children, including 1 preborn child due to be born in August 2010.

      3. Registered Nurse trained in the areas of Obstetrics, Cardiovascular-Thoracic Surgery and Cardiology.

      4. Working on a Masters degree in Theology (part-time).

      5. Natural Family Planning Instructor.

      6. Pro-life speaker.

      7. Catholic catechist and writer.

      If you’re on facebook and a person of good will, Catholic or non-Catholic, feel free to send a friend request.

    • Emily

      JC, you either lack the mental capacity to process what I’ve written or you are dleiberately pretending to “miss” it in order to attack me. Those are the only two possible explanations for your behavior./quote]

      I have been following this conversation, but I wasn’t interested in participating. But I have to say something now. I have to admit, S. Burton, that I, too, was confused a lot about what you were saying and what your reasoning was. It was confusing in places. You might think you were being more clear than you were. I don’t think either option about JC necessarily has to be true. And him being a “uber-Catholic” seems irrelevant to the conversation. I was trying to follow you for a while, and can only conclude now that you’re extremely over-sensitive and see attacks where I, for one, don’t seem them. And I tried.

      That the position I hold and have explained REPEATEDLY makes no sense to you and a handful of highly suspect internet “personalities” doesn’t mean I haven’t explained upon what principals I have based my position.

      Maybe YOU are a highly suspect internet personality! Good grief. Because you do not feel understood, you have to discredit those people. Take a little responsibility for the communication. Maybe you do not communicate as clearly as you think and your positions are not as “reasoned” as you think. And if people aren’t getting you, maybe have a bit more kindness towards them.

      For the record, what I am left with as far as your stand on abortion is the following:

      You support abortion in the case of rape because no woman should be forced to carry a child conceived in rape against her will and to have to experience pregnancy and birth after being raped. For you, her right to not be further traumatized comes before the child’s right to life.

      If this is correct, I get that position, even though I disagree with it.

    • Emily

      I just noticed that some of my comments were stuck in the quote marks above. I don;t know how that happened. Pardon the mistake.

    • S. Burton

      You want to meet me face to face and hand me that resume and let me fact-check it, and it turns out to be true, I’ll believe you, but words on the internet without hard facts behind them, facebook and myspace pages, etc. mean nothing.

      Again, the words you just posted don’t match your behavior here. Your repeated, shrill insistance that I absolutely hate you __personally_ doesn’t match the theological background you now claim you have.

      But, hey, email your resume to tolkiencatholic@gmail.com and I will run the same background check I’d run on a job applicant. You are who and what you say you are and I’ll bend over backwards apologising. Right now, your actions here are too unlikely and suspicious in my mind for me to believe you.

    • S. Burton

      Yes, Emily, we could all be “fake”, but I haven’t laid claim to specific credentials and experiences which would add weight to my arguments and serve to persuade people to my point of view.

    • Deborah

      S. Burton,

      I know it’s probably hard for you to face the fact that someone who you are arguing for the right to have murdered is challenging your discrimination.

      Furthermore, it’s probably hard for you to face the fact that you are arguing with a woman who is educated in the fields of science, medicine, and theology. I get that. But it’s time to stop pretending, stop making things up, and face the horrendous reality of your position. You are arguing for the right to murder innocent human beings and that is mean and hateful.

      You responded exactly how I expected. Denial and anger. That’s what people do when they know deep down inside they are guilty of defending an evil and disgusting position and their pride gets in the way of admitting it.

    • S. Burton

      Resume, Deborah. Universities, dates of graduation, places of employment, etc.

      I’m not discriminating against you, I wouldn’t at all find it hard to discuss your position with someone who had legitimately experienced what you say you have — in fact, I’d welcome it. Unfortunately, you came out of the gate accusing me of actively hating you personally and then forcing me into the impossible position of proving a negative.

      Not the usual tactic of someone who claims to be a professional and experienced writer/speaker on the subject at hand.

      As you just said, you planned for and baited for a specific response — a response you were going to read into any response you actually got anyway. Again, not exactly the actions of someone with the theological and professional background you are claiming you have.

    • Deborah

      Anticipating someone’s response does not necessarily mean one is baiting or that the response was “planned for”.

      Also, simply because a person does not comment and debate according to your preconceived ideas proves what, exactly? Nothing except perhaps that your perconceived ideas are limited.

      Indeed, I have a unique perspective from many sides in the anti-abortion debate but that is a good thing. Not many others have the perspective from the side of being specifically and aggressively targeted for murder as preborn babies conceived in rape are.

      So, I take it as a compliment that you, in a way, find my arguments unique. Yes, they are and I’ve helped many people see exactly who they are targeting for murder when they say things like “a progeny of a rapist”. We are real people who deserve the right to live just like every other baby.

      I encourage you to visit the links I gave earlier. You will see people who were conceived in rape, women who conceived children in rape, and more. We are men, women, sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, aunts and uncles. We are people who don’t deserve to be murdered because of how we were conceived, we derserve to live our life and be happy.

    • georgie-ann

      idiosyncratic personal opinions are just that,…they are not necessarily based on truth or reason or Catholic teaching or any other generally reference-able substantiating source,…and in the case of stubbornly obstinate insistence, they dwell like an unappreciated storm cloud in the midst of an otherwise tolerable circumstance,…whipping up the winds with sudden and irrational accusatory lightening strikes (just for added self-justifying emphasis), twisting and mangling benignly-offered information, like just so many tree branches left pitifully dangling in the wake of its passing presence,…

      might does not make right, and never will,…but the habit of always trying to reduce others’ positions to rubble, by mere repeated and flimsily-substantiated denials and assertions is unprofitable, basically, for all concerned,…”God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble,”…”I am (always)right, therefore YOU are wrong,” just doesn’t “cut it” in a civil/intelligent conversation,…

      Satan is the author of the violence and motives that move a human to rape,…”We wrestle not with flesh & blood, but with powers and principalities,”…he is your enemy,…not God,…he is God’s enemy too,…you have every right to be angry about the things Satan “inspires”/does, but that position gets to be very tiring after awhile, for you & for most everyone around you,…

      “but God has called us to peace,”…God can “make a way where there is no way,”…do not trust all your thoughts when you are still “in a personal war with Satan,”…and do not believe that it is a war with God instead,…as a matter of fact, i have it on good testimony that whatever hurts you, hurts God even more–each and every time,…

      God IS a God of Mercy & Healing, but you have to find/enter His Way to find His Peace,…He is ALWAYS Loving us,…

    • georgie-ann

      i was trying NOT to say this, but i feel that i really need to,…the “cheap shots” and impugning of your respective integrities has been experienced as insulting, and has hurt me and, i would imagine, others as well,…please accept my appreciation and respect for all you do & represent,…it’s obvious that you are taking the “high road,” as well-expressed by Catholic teaching–our shining example,…too bad about those who feel compelled to attack, disparage, and sully, although the blessed rain will surely come along to wash these effects away, once more exposing the shining of the enduring gold beneath,…”Underneath are the everlasting arms,”…

    • georgie-ann

      that last comment was specifically meant for JC & Deborah, but i’m sure there are others that shoe would fit as well,…many thanks,…

    • S. Burton
    • L.

      I’m surprised you remembered my visiting your blog, JC — I think it was over four years ago or so, when we had first moved to San Francisco and I was lonely and missing Tokyo, and spending a lot of time on the computer. I’m also surprised you consider me “non-Catholic,” since even excommunication doesn’t make someone a non-Catholic — but of course you are free to think of me any way you want. In any case, I do not hold myself up as an example of anything but a “cafeteria,” non-communicant Catholic, so I guess the rest is moot.

      And Deborah? While it’s true that anticipating someone’s response does not necessarily mean one is baiting, it’s hard to read this whole thread without thinking that you were gunning for a calculated response from S. Burton — and I think you just got it.

    • Administrator

      We’re going to have to close this thread. The comments have gotten entirely too heated.

      The Management