One Hundred Fifty-Three Fish and Related Matters

When Pope John Paul II died on April 2, 2005, there were any number of fascinating coincidences that surrounded his death. They were the sort of things that make you go “hmm” and (if one is a wobbly agnostic) begin to suspect that maybe You Know Who has His hand in things after all.

John Paul managed to go to his reward in the one sliver of time that tied together Easter, Fatima, and the Divine Mercy Feast that he himself had established (he died on Saturday evening, the Vigil of the Feast of the Divine Mercy, which falls in the Octave of Easter). Given the movable nature of the Easter feast (not to mention the moveable nature of First Saturdays, a devotion associated with the apparitions of our Lady of Fatima), this is as impressive a bit of chance, if chance it was, as you could ask for. However, like so much about his papacy, one does get the sense that such a theatrical gesture must have pleased him as he approached the Pearly Gates. It had everything: It tied together Our Lady of Fatima (on whose feast day he was shot, May 13, 1981), as well as the Third Secret of Fatima (which, in part, concerned the shooting), as well as St. Faustina, a fellow Pole whose private revelation concerning the Divine Mercy so appealed to John Paul, the author of Dives in Misericordia.


And the weirdness doesn’t end there. Seekers of signs will also find that there was a partial eclipse on the day of his funeral: God flying the flag at half staff. Nor is that all — for it also turns out John Paul was born during a solar eclipse, too. One of my readers wrote at the time, offering this bit of homespun exegesis of all this:

Here’s an interesting thing I noticed about the upcoming eclipse: It will occur while it is night in Rome and Poland. As night falls on the Supreme Pontiff and his homeland, God has ordained that it will fall on the rest of the world as well.

And though one need not insist on any of this as a divine sign, one should not be terribly surprised that some took it so. Given his devotion to Our Lady of Fatima (whose great sign was the Miracle of the Sun) and her rescue of him (as he plainly believed) on May 13, 1981 (the anniversary of the first appearance of Mary at Fatima), it’s hard not to see Something Significant betokened by it all.

I mention all this not because I have a burning interest in whether God was trying to tell us something through the death of John Paul, but because I am morally certain that, in about 2,000 years, scholars, picking over the scattered and fragmented record of the early 21st century and trying to determine what happened before the Robot Wars destroyed so much of the information, will inform us that the chroniclers of the legendary Pope John Paul II embellished the stories of his life and death in a conscious effort to link him with the events of Fatima and the cultic celebrations of Mercy Sunday.

So we will be informed that “purely symbolic” midrashes that associate eclipses with his birth and death were interposed into the historical narrative and that, likewise, his death is, no doubt, “placed” by the hagiographers into the liturgical calendar on First Saturday, April 2, 2005, in order to “strengthen” the bond between Easter, Fatima, Mercy Sunday, and John Paul. We will be told that all of this is purely symbolic theological creativity on the part of John Paul chroniclers and that what matters is the spiritual lesson these chroniclers are trying to teach, not the question of whether a historical figure lies behind the John Paul II Event and the supposed “historical data” about his life.

I mention this because the reading this past Sunday concerned the miraculous draught of fishes in John 21 and the curious detail John records concerning the number of fishes (153) that were hauled up in the dragnet. John being John and seeing meaning everywhere, interpreters of his Gospel have long assumed that here, as everywhere else in his Gospel, John does not record such details because he is hoping to supply grist for Trivial Pursuit, but because he thinks the number 153 is significant. St. Jerome, for instance, tells us that this was the number of species of fish that ancient science had identified. John’s point in recording this number, then, is that Peter and the apostles, being “fishers of men,” are being given a symbolic charge by the Risen Christ to bring in all the nations of the earth in the “great net” of the Kingdom of God.

Seems like a reasonable understanding of John’s (and Jesus’) point. What is not a reasonable understanding of his point is the sotto voce caveat that modern biblical scholars so often seem to append to this and so many other stories from the New Testament: “And so we can of course assume that it never actually, you know, happened. It’s just a story the author of the Gospel invented in order to communicate a theological point.”

This is a constant refrain in modern biblical criticism from the same sort of people who perpetually inform us that the reality of the Miracle of the Loaves and Fishes is that a crowd of ancient Semites were so moved by Jesus’ warm fuzziness that, in a sharp break with normal Near Eastern culture, they shared their food. It’s an exegesis only a chintzy Western suburbanite could credit for one nanosecond, but it constantly gets trotted out, first to explain away the miracle and then as a way of saying that the Evangelist retrojected a spiritual interpretation on this thoroughly pedestrian occurrence in order to make it a forecast of the Eucharist.

The basic formula for such reading of the New Testament is, “It never happened, and here’s what it means.” The allegorical interpretation of the non-event becomes the sole reason for recording any New Testament incident. Whether anything actually happened to spur the biblical author to make connections, see patterns, interpret real world events in a spiritual light? Irrelevant. Nothing actually occurred, except that a biblical author had an idea that he communicated via a made-up or highly embellished story about a cryptic cipher of whom we can know nothing.

The consummation of this, of course, is John Dominic Crossan’s insistence that the body of Jesus was eaten by wild dogs, but that none of this matters so long as the apostles felt really strongly that the resurrection lie they dedicated their lives and deaths to was full of meaning for them. However, as Rev. Benedict Groeschel’s little old Jewish lady neighbor used to say to her sophisticated son when he condescendingly explained that the Israelites crossed the Red Sea at low tide, my response to all these expert reconstructions of eyewitness accounts is, “You were there?”

As the death of John Paul illustrates, there’s a weirdness in God’s mercy. Sometimes things actually happen — here, in the real world — that are just packed with symbolism and significance. These things occur not because a chronicler cooked them up, but because they occurred. The chronicler then sees the curious significance in them. So: Given that it was, after all, the Risen Christ whom the apostles met on the shore of Galilee, I have no problem believing in either a miraculous draught of fishes, nor in our Lord making certain that 153 fish wound up in the net so that John could get the point and pass it on to us. If we swallow the camel of the Resurrection, it seems rather silly to strain at the gnat (or is that the net?) of a miracle involving a precise count of fishes.

Ditto for the other miracles of Jesus. The fact that they are pregnant with all sorts of significance does not, in the slightest, mean that the evangelists invented the miracle for the sake of getting some abstract meaning across. And this is supremely true of the Resurrection itself. Blabbering about the True Spiritual Meaning of the Resurrection in the full knowledge that the flesh of Jesus was passing through the guts of a wild dog is not “profound.” It’s delusional, or it’s a particularly disgusting fraud. Paul knew this perfectly well:

Now if Christ is preached as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised; if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. (1 Cor 15:12-18)

Happily, Paul was much more rooted in reality than Crossan and his ilk. He knew that reality was sacramental, that divine meaning can be communicated by real world events, and that the good news was that the Resurrection was not some gestalt illusion that had only happened in Cloud Cuckoo Land, but something which had occurred on earth in front of real people (including his own astonished eyes). So he could write with great horse sense:

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.

I think John tells the story of the miraculous draught of 153 fish for two reasons. First, because it actually happened. Second, because it was, like all the wonders Christ performed, full of meaning. If it didn’t happen, I would not be interested in what it meant, because it would be a lie. This goes, with extra emphasis, for people like Crossan who waste their time and mine parsing the meaning of a Resurrection they themselves clearly regard as a fraud. Such exegetes don’t strike me as especially sound guides to truth for the same reason that people in the grip of hallucination don’t strike me as good guides to sanity. I think it would be wiser to listen to biblical critics who actually believe that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life than to listen to biblical guides who teach that He is a dead, dismembered fraud — and that we should reverence Him. Guys like Crossan need to acknowledge the Risen Christ and his 153 fish or cut bait.

Mark P. Shea

By

Mark P. Shea is the author of Mary, Mother of the Son and other works. He was a senior editor at Catholic Exchange and is a former columnist for Crisis Magazine.

  • Adam Wood

    If you believe that God is the Great Author of history, it should some as no surprise that actual events are pregnant with literary meaning. The fact that there is an interesting exegetical point to be made about the Nativity narratives or the details of the woman at the well or whatever else I’ve heard explained away does not in any way affect the event’s veracity.

    There may be lots of pieces to the puzzle when one is trying to discern exactly what happened at any given moment in the distant past. There are many reasons to think that something happened one way or another way or didn’t happen at all. But “this is meaningful theologically” seems like the worst possible reason to conclude it didn’t happen that way, especially considering that God seems so intent on us getting the point otherwise.

  • Criffton

    Was it Lewis or Tolkien that described Christianity as “The Myth that is True”. This understanding is rife in Lewis’s novels.

  • Nick Palmer

    Mark, another nice, sharp, pointy piece. Fun to read. You strike an interesting balance between Chesterton’s witty sarcasm and Lewis’s gentler chiding.

    Quick question: we RCs accept “scripture” as divinely inspired. What exactly qualifies as divinely inspired “scripture.” The so-called original Latin? Aramaic? Hebrew? Greek? A few years back God mercifully intervened at my parish when the new pastor put the nix on the so-called Family Lectionary which had been being used for the 9:30 gabbing-parents-and-chanting-kids Mass. In this “divinely silly” book we learned such gems as that the baby Jesus was wrapped in “baby clothes.” Ugh!

    So, where does one find the truly divinely inspired Word in print?

  • Jeff

    Terri Schiavo died on March 30, 2005 after the State removed her life support. She died just three days prior to the death of Pope John Paul II. The outrageous treatment of this innocent woman was clear and distinct in the national consciousness when our Pope died.

    At the very moment when wolves of the culture of death were howling and slobbering with delight, on the day when even some of our so-called “friends” in the GOP whined and complained that social conservatives dared to offer a bill in congress condemning the murder of Terri Schiavo, at that very moment, a blinding light encompassed the earth which cast the whole drama in a different hue. It was as if Christ himself gazed into the pit of the culture of death to convict each and every one of them.

  • bill bannon

    Mark
    I concur with your post but such rationalizing authors were and are within Catholicism and one author, Fr. Raymond Brown, who edited the New Jerome Biblical Commentary, was on the Pontifical Biblical Commission both under Paul VI and under John Paul II and he in Birth of the Messiah, stated that Mary did not say the Magnificat but Luke got it from Palestinian Anawim and placed it in her mouth so that the passage would resemble like passages in the Old Testament. He had no actual evidence to offer but as a scholar’s name inflates (and he was a genius in terms of breath of memory without doubt) evidence is less and less required of them. Nor did he believe in the flight into Egypt or that any census had taken place at the time of Christ’s birth or that innocents had been slaughtered.
    How did he get past two Popes? He was intimidating to any clery who had not studied Scriptural studies at the micro level. And he was a genius in many other areas outside this issue…in terms of memory capacity not insight.

    On the 153 fish, I find the psalm explanation pretty good. There are 150 psalms and if one lives out the psalms within oneself and within one’s life, one will arrive at the Three of the Trinity…153. What does the Trinity have to do with that beach scene after the Resurrection? Go back to the three strangers who spoke to Abraham in one unified voice at the terebinth of Mamre in Genesis and whom Abraham addressed as though the three were only one person using the word “lord”.
    Abraham fed them there at Mamre and thus he was feeding God so to speak..the Trinity. At the beach scene in John, God feeds the apostles because He came not to be served but to serve.
    Christ reverses the scene at Mamre. The 153 fish and their Trinity meaning remind of us of Mamre and the three strangers who were fed by man. Now He returns the favor.

  • bill bannon
  • Michael

    Jeff brings up an excellent point in Terri Schiavo’s murder in relation to our Lord calling JPII home.

    I remember that week vividly. I remember the suffering and persecution by evil people that Terri Schiavo and her family endured for weeks only to culminate in her final murder the Wednesday before the Feast of Divine Mercy. The petition that our Lord requests during that Divine Mercy Novena for Wednesday (the day Terri was murdered) was:

    Today bring to Me the Meek and Humble Souls and the Souls of Little Children,

    and immerse them in My mercy. These souls most closely resemble My Heart. They strengthened Me during My bitter agony. I saw them as earthly Angels, who will keep vigil at My altars. I pour out upon them whole torrents of grace. I favor humble souls with My confidence.

    I am confident that in God’s plans Terri’s death along with the timing of JP II’s was no coincidence.

    As JP II stated:

    “In the designs of Providence there are no mere coincidences.”

  • Christine

    Mark,

    I really loved this article. God always leaves signs for us because of our doubt. Those that have perfect faith need no signs. Many of us, like the Apostle Thomas, see the sign and believe. Some of us see the sign and never believe.

    When Jesus died, there was an eclipse of the sun, an earthquake and a catastrophe within the Temple itself. We as Catholics (except a few misguided Priests who forment scandal) believe this as a sign that we crucified the Christ.

    It is good for us to think about signs from God within our lives. You have provided us with many signs to ponder.

    I know that in the past, during times of trouble and sorrow, I asked our Mother Mary to send me a sign of yellow roses. I asked her for the sign because of my weak faith. She always came through and they would show up in the wildest places while I was pondering the answer to my dilemma. The yellow roses always pointed me in the right direction.

    That being said, we all must remember that we can’t live our lives running after the next sign because we will end up missing the one sign we needed to get to work on God’s Kingdom in our souls. The searching of signs sometimes becomes a distraction from building His Kingdom in our hearts.

    This is one thing that bothers me the most about the Medjugorje apparitions and the cult (using this word in a non-derogatory manner) that surrounds it. There are many good fruits that come from these apparitions, but there are many people who look to Medjugorje’s signs at the expense of looking to the Church and to Christ for the truth. For some these signs become nothing more than a magic 8 ball.

    I could hunt about searching for the next yellow rose to make decisions in my life, but if I did that I would destroy the beauty of the gift that was given to me in my moment of weak faith. Jesus didn’t hang around Thomas for the rest of his life so that he could poke him in the side just to make sure that Jesus was crucified and had risen from the dead.

  • Brian English

    “He had no actual evidence to offer but as a scholar’s name inflates (and he was a genius in terms of breath of memory without doubt) evidence is less and less required of them.”

    This is the same problem with Crossan. He comes out with these wild theories, without a shred of evidence to support them, but since his conclusion is academia approved (Jesus was just some guy who knew how to make people feel special) Crossan’s books and commentary (he is a History Channel favorite) are granted a level of respect they clearly do not deserve.

  • I am not Spartacus

    http://tinyurl.com/y3w9ln6

    Catena Aurea

    AUG. In the draught before, the number of the fishes is not mentioned, as if in fulfillment of the prophecy in the Psalm, If I should declare them, and speak of them, they should be more than l am able to express, but here there is a certain number mentioned, which we must explain.

    The number which signifies the law is ten, from the ten Commandments. But when to the law is joined grace, to the letter spirit, the number seven is brought in, that being the number which represents the Holy Spirit, to Whom sanctification properly belongs. For sanctification was first heard of in the law, with respect to the seventh day; and Isaiah praises the Holy Spirit for His sevenfold work and office. The seven of the Spirit added to the ten of the law make seventeen, and the numbers from one up to seventeen when added together, make a hundred and fifty-three.

    GREG. Seven and ten multiplied by three make fifty-one. The fiftieth year was a year of rest to the whole people from all their work. In unity is true rest; for where division is, true rest cannot be.

    AUG. It is not then signified that only a hundred and fifty-three saints are to rise again to eternal life, but this number represents all who partake of the grace of the Holy Spirit. which number too contains three fifties, and three over, with reference to the mystery of the Trinity. And the number fifty is made up of seven sevens, and one in addition, signifying that those sevens are one.

    That they were great fishes too, is not without meaning. For when our Lord says, I came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill, by giving, that is, the Holy Spirit through Whom the law can be fulfilled, He says almost immediately after, Whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of hearer. In the first draught the net was broken, to signify schisms; but here to show that in that perfect peace of the blessed there would be no schisms, the Evangelist continues: And for all they were so great, yet was not the net broken; as if alluding to the case before, in which it was broken, and making a favorable comparison.

    FYIW, when I was young, I was told 153 was the number of known nations at the time

  • Roberto

    Fr. Raymond Brown certainly was a controversial theologian, but he often insisted that when the evidence for an event was not conclusive he would question it, but would accept the Church’s teaching out of Faith. Maybe that is why he “survived” his Popes.
    Apparently, shortly before he died he commented that he was looking forward to chatting with St.John to know for sure how to interpret his writings. In particular he wanted to know about the meaning of the 153 fish, but he suspected that John’s answer would be “I wrote 153 because that’s how many we got”

  • bill bannon

    Roberto
    Except that the Church would never pass extraordinary judgement (infallible) on each of the detailed things Brown doubted so his doubts were safe and his promise was basically non risky. On John’s gospel he is tremendous. I have “Birth of the Messiah” and “Community of the Beloved Disciple” and “Introduction to the New Testament”…the last two I would give to a young person. “Birth of the Messiah” I would not give to anyone which means I will purge it eventually (paper recycling).
    John Paul II did not have a patristic attitude toward the Old Testament anyway and was far too liberal on the Bible for me to give credence to some of his positions as on the death penalty wherein he found the Old Testament death penalties to really be from “unrefined” Jewish culture rather than from God as scripture says it they were and as any Father would have argued (see section 40 of Evangelium Vitae…as here: “Of course we must recognize that in the Old Testament this sense of the value of life, though already quite marked, does not yet reach the refinement found in the Sermon on the Mount. This is apparent in some aspects of the current penal legislation, which provided for severe forms of corporal punishment and even the death penalty.”) He apparently forgot that God Himself is still very unrefined therefore according to John Paul’s sensibility in Acts 12:23 in the disposal of Herod which happens after the Sermon on the Mount: “At once the angel of the Lord struck him down because he did not ascribe the honor to God, and he was eaten by worms and breathed his last.” What would Brown and John Paul say of the worms….that they were a figure of speech? Or did Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5 just happen to have strokes when Peter confronted them and it had nothing to do with Peter’s verbal agency on behalf of God just as Moses only had verbal agency in the death of Dathan and Abiram and their families?
    So it is no tremendous wonder to me that John Paul II did not question Brown. The ordinary magisterium is not always eventually infallible.

  • serreno

    Very good article. Up until the Luminous Mysteries were added and I believe this was during the Pontificate of Pope John Paul ll, there were 153 Hail Mary’s in the Joyful, Sorrowful and Glorious Mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary. I read this years ago and it got my attention. God is just so awesome isn’t He!

  • Mike Walsh, MM

    Altogether excellent post. It has always struck me as odd that modern biblical scholarship seems to have established a sort of obverse post-hoc fallacy as a foundational principle. I maintain that materialists and rationalists are incapable of witnessing a miracle, anyway. They lack the necessary humility, trapped as they are by the need to defend their impenetrably autonomous authority.

    For what it

  • Eric Bohn

    bill,

    The key distinction that needs to be made is that the corporal punnishment that JP2 was talking about derives from the judgement of men. The events you described are punnishments commanded by God.

    The experience of the beatitudes which prefaced the sermon on the mount amounted to a spiritual confirmation of the covenential faithfullness of Jesus’s disciples. In the sermon Jesus gave us a new version of the old commandments, one of which was not to kill. Of the tweleve chosen by Jesus, there was only one disciple who disobeyed that command.

    All,

    BTW, can anyone identify any Old Testament parallels to the catch of 153 fish?

  • bill bannon

    Eric,
    Exd 20:1 ” And God spake all these words, saying….

    Exd 22:18 “Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.”

    Exd 22:19 ” Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.”

    God repeatedly commands, in the first person, the death penalty in the Old Testament for personal mortal sins (Jews only and rescinded by Christ when He brought grace as the motivator to replace threats as to personal sins) and God also commanded the death penalty separately for murder (Jews and Gentiles both in Gen.9:5-6 and later (after Christ) that was repeated not rescinded in Romans 13:4 in the New Testament per Aquinas); and John Paul called the death penalty “cruel” in 1999 in St.Louis and the Bishops cited him in their written document on the matter. So he and they called “cruel” something God repeatedly commanded in the first person throughout the Pentateuch. Did someone tell you that every word from a Pope is infallible? That is not Catholic dogmatics. Are we children or can we read?

    Romans 13:4 ” But if you do evil, be afraid, for it (the state) does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.”

    There is now no talk of wrath. Were anything less than death envisioned in
    Romans as the outer parameter of the synedoche “sword”, “imprisonment” not “sword” would have been used by Paul. “Sword” was used and from Augustine til Pius XII…we knew what that meant.
    Last night had a report on TV of a Mafia uncle who ordered his nephew killed from prison as gangsters often do during life sentences. Modern penology protects who? Not the nephew.

  • Bill

    153 fish are not a large enough quantity to challenge the boat. Theologians also say that the 153 fish symobolize the known number of nations at the time of Jesus. Therefore, Jesus is telling them that they will be bringing the Gospel to all of the world.

  • Dan

    I’m not always sure what you are getting at in your posts, especially when you write gramatically odd sentences like “The ordinary magisterium is not always eventually infallible.” Regardless, you seem to be assuming a theological authority in this thread, one which I would like to challenge.
    You accuse JPII of being “far too liberal on the Bible,” and as evidence you cite Evangelium Vitae. However, the passage you cite only shows that JPII believed that God reveals truth to the human race gradually over time (which is the position of the Catholic Church, exactly). JPII consistently upheld the state’s right to exercise the death penalty, but considering that he had seen the state at its absolute worst it is reasonable that he would like to see the state exercise great caution when carrying out its duties. Furthermore, this would not suggest JPII was “too liberal on the Bible”–I have always found JPII to be a wonderful exegete whose writings are completely consonant with the teaching and Tradition of the Catholic Church.

  • bill bannon

    Dan
    No, John Paul II rather than consistently upholding the death penalty…circumvented it with a catch phrase that everyone said amen to without thinking: “modern penology protects” except in rare rare rare cases. And he never even cited research sources.

    But he hated the death penalty and said so in St. Louis in 1999 in calling it “cruel”. Later Benedict as Pope thanked the Phillipines president for outlawing it there when she visited the Vatican. Odd type of upholding from him too. So neither man willed it to be around due to its tradition place.
    But in the catechism, they had to phrase it in such a way that Romans 13:4 would be ackowledged to all the theologians watching… which John Paul II never did do within Evangelium Vitae where he never quoted it once while talking of the death penalty. So the upholding was legalistic not existential.

    Judge Judy’s book title comes to mind: “don’t pee on my leg and tell me its raining”. He did not uphold it in reality.
    He circumvented it in a way that theologians could accept.

    With no references to any research, John Paul declared that modern penology protects. He would have been right centuries ago. Life sentences during the Inquistion which issued some actually would have protected far better in those centuries during which a lifer could not have visitors or send letters to friends outside prior to the rights of the little man. But with the French revolution et al came rights for even prisoners. Now district courts have ruled prisoners must have contact rights and the NY Times years ago had an article allegeding that about 300 people had been killed on the streets of California in a decade due to prison ordered hits. John Paul apparently did not read of such things because George Weigel in “Witness to Hope” stated that John Paul did not read newspapers which on this topic of modern penology…would have helped hhad he done so and would have helped that Mafia man’s nephew.

    Catholic high murder rate countries (and the sex abuse debacle) unforetunately disqualify our leaders from being experts on murder prevention. Go to wiki’s list and Catholic predominant countries (often with no death penalty) are very present in the top 20 murder rate countries. One of them several years ago (Venezuela) had 2% of its prisoners murdered within prison and John Paul seemed totally unaware and that parallels his orientation to the Maciel case. It is as though whatever he saw as a youth and that could be way over imagined….he seems to no longer have wanted to ackowledge the criminal life and just how bad it could be even from within prison.

  • bill bannon

    PS
    Your statement: “the passage you cite only shows that JPII believed that God reveals truth to the human race gradually over time”….no…John Paul inferred that God did not order the death penalties ever as the Bible says He did… but that the death penalties were an outgrowth of an unrefined state of the Jews. They were not. They were ordered by God or God led us astray in speaking in the first person in that context. Take your pick.

  • Dan

    “Modern penology protects” was never used as a “catchphrase” by JPII, if for no other reason then because that would be the Lousiest Catchphrase Ever. What JP II said was that cases in which the death penalty would be acceptable were “rare, even non-existent, practically” (cf. Ecclesia in America). You are trying to make a case that he spent his pontificate surreptitiously undermining Church teaching, but he made no secret whatsoever of the fact that he thought the death penalty was usually unnecessary–because it is often used by the state as a form of retribution, which is not enough to justify it, all by itself. That kind of thinking is in keeping with good moral theology. John Paul backed up his thinking with solid Catholic theology (for you to charge him with “never citing research sources” is laughable), and it is far from “legalistic,” which means “strict adherence to the letter of the law;” that’s exactly what he was not. Rather, he applied the teachings of Christ regarding mercy and forgiveness even to…gasp!…criminals! And he put his money where his mouth was, too, when he forgave his would-be assassin, for instance. His hope was that this kind of pro-life attitude would saturate a given society enough to be reflected in the way its government dealt with criminals. What about that bothers you so much?
    Most of the rest of your post is just a haze of ranting about all the horrible murders in the world, which no one here needed you to remind us of…and please don’t insult JPII’s intelligence by supposing that he himself was ignorant of humankind’s awful behavior. He knew about it more intimately than most.

  • bill bannon

    Dan
    Earth to Dan. He called it “cruel” in 1999. Retain that part. You don’t seem to.

    Here is Ludwig Ott in the ending paragraph of section 8 of the “Fundamentals of the Catholic Dogma” saying that the ordinary papal magisterium can make mistakes in morals…only the infallible level is perfectly protected by God:

    ” With regard to the doctrinal teaching of the Church it must be well noted that not all the assertions of the Teaching Authority of the Church on questions of Faith and morals are infallible and consequently irrevocable. Only those are infallible which emanate from General Councils representing the whole episcopate, and the Papal Decisions Ex Cathedra (cf. D 1839). The ordinary and usual form of the Papal teaching activity is not infallible.”

    80% of the Catholic internet do not know that and think as you seem to.

    I had Dominicans for 8 years and Jesuits for 8 years. I need Malbec for entirely different reasons than you do but I gave it up today as penance for wifey. You’ve increased my penance somewhat. Pro Life? I’m involved in saving babies every month in Beijing….”Chinese music always sets me free…angular banjos…sound good to me” steeley dan…

  • Dan

    Hi Bill, sorry, your “P.S.” just popped up, and it is unfortunately as flawed as your main post. Eric already pointed out to you that you are failing to make a distinction between judgments made by God and those made by man. No one here argues that God has the authority to take life when and how he chooses–the question on the table is: when does man, on authority of the state, have the right to take life? To respond to that question as you do, by pounding on passages of Levitical laws in the OT, totally ignores 1. the crucial context within which those laws were situated and 2. the crucial context within which our own modern laws are situated. For instance, the laws regarding the stoning of adulteresses had a divine sanction in their time and place for a specific reason, but clearly those qualifications are not universal and absolute, or Jesus would not have allowed the adulteress in John 8 to live.And yet you ignore all of these critical distinctions with “They were ordered by God or God led us astray…Take your pick.” What kind of hermeneutic is that?

  • bill bannon

    Dan
    The thread is about the Bible not the death penalty and which parts of the Bible do we believe. John Paul did not believe that God said what He did say concerning that topic.
    End.

  • Dan

    O.K. so this has all finally been distilled down to the following:
    “The thread is about the Bible not the death penalty and which parts of the Bible do we believe. John Paul did not believe that God said what He did say concerning that topic.”
    And now, Bill, please, tell us: 1. What did God say concerning that topic? And 2. Using actual, concrete evidence, show how John Paul did not believe it.
    I breathlessly await your response.

  • Irenaeus of New York

    I have read that its more likely that there were 153 fish caught because there are 153 parts to the Torah at the time of Jesus(the divisions ammended shortly thereafter). More specifically that there were 153 sedarim used in the triennial cycle by some synagogues in and around Jerusalem.

  • bill bannon

    Dan
    I answered both of your questions already and by the way, I don’t think you read all my posts in detail.

    But I will inform you of why God took back His Levitical death penalties for personal sin as in the case of the woman caught in adultery. Augustine somewhere (and I forget where since I read nearly all he wrote except the one everyone reads..the Confessions)…Augustine said that prior to sanctifying grace which Christ brought (Jn 1:17), man needed great threats to avoid sin and the death penalty was that threat. Yet man misused those God given death penalties self righteously because man is prone to seeing the sins of others and not his own.
    You’ll note in John with the woman caught in adultery, that Christ writes in the dirt a scond time and it is then that the accusing men of the adulteress leave but they leave in order of age and one by one and few homilists notice that detail but it explains all.
    Christ simply had written their names in the ground and the hint of a hidden sin by them perhaps by writing also a woman’s name or the name of someone they defrauded. That way they saw their sin and not her’s anymore. That is why they left according to age and one by one.
    Hence the OT had predicted this moment… ( Jer 17:13, RSV)

  • Dan

    You have a fantastic gift for long, irrelevant tangents. First, your note about what Jesus wrote on the ground during the adulteress episode doesn’t hold a droplet of water. The text simply does not tell us what exactly he wrote, and people have puzzled for millenia over what it might have been. Your guess that it was the actual names and sins of the onlookers is highly doubtful, especially since when they leave it is not in reaction to what he wrote but to what he said: “But they hearing this, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest” [my emphasis].
    You still haven’t told us what God tells us we ought to do with the death penalty in the modern state. You claim to know, but your convoluted attempt to explain the Jewish/Christian history of the death penalty is just a big cloud of smoke and mirrors, but also contradictory. If you concede that Levitical death penalty laws are not universally binding, then why did you use them against Eric as evidence that John Paul deviated from God’s law in his writings on the death penalty in the modern state? Why exactly do you think that John Paul has deviated from God’s law? You still have not answered that.

  • bill bannon

    Dan,

    You write:
    “If you concede that Levitical death penalty laws are not universally binding, then why did you use them against Eric as evidence that John Paul deviated from God’s law in his writings on the death penalty in the modern state?”

    Because it showed that John Paul could remove commands that were inspired by God and think and write that they rather came from men’s wills and unrefined culture instead….which is what this thread is about: the nullifying of passages in one clever way or the other.

    Try to hear this next word: goodbye. I find that you depend too much on insult. We all do that at times but each of your posts has a dig from the very beginning and I’m going to pass on interacting with that henceforth.

  • Dan

    But if you concede that the laws, even if inspired by God, are not universally binding, then it is no strike against John Paul if he considers them of little value in the modern debate about the death penalty, right? By your own logic you have to agree that JPII canot be faulted for paying less attention to laws which are no longer applicable–you yourself have admitted they are no longer applicable! So, JPII is therefore not the liberal destroyer of Church Tradition that you made him out to be at the start of all this, is he?
    Have a nice night, Bill.

  • georgie-ann

    it wouldn’t surprise me that any given human being you could mention, even a potential saint, will have their own relative strengths and weaknesses, their own “pet” focus on “this or that” aspect of things, while at the same time down-playing other possibilities,…we are all of us limited, and also very conditioned by the social context in which we develop and find ourselves,…

    it is so easy to play “armchair” critic of another,…especially one who may have managed to accomplish some very amazing things,…

    i think this is a vanity of our fallen human nature,…we love to accuse and assign blame, rather than thinking realistically, generously, and granting ourselves and others the freedom to “move on,” and to make positive forward-looking improvements to what has been the accepted “status quo” to date,…

    the history of mankind has included so many failures and examples of falling-short, that sometimes one wonders how we even managed to get this far,…i think, only by the Grace of God,…

    we are confronted in this day and age by so many variations in the levels of human society, behavior, perception, understanding, that not only is it mind-boggling, but it can be very frightening and intimidating to contemplate,…

    i doubt very much that there are any “one-size-fits-all” social solutions or declarations that we can simply find and apply to make everything “all better” for everyone,…

    the whole world needs to “search its soul” and ask God for deep penetrating guidance in handling all the problems currently on its collective plate,…some of these things are so nasty and indigenously ingrained that “humanitarian” concepts don’t even begin to be realistically applicable,…

    we can conceive of the “ideal,” and exhort and teach in this vein,…but there is so much “falling short” on the human end of things, that unpleasant and very much less-than-ideal measures will also probably have to be applied,…

    all humans are not on the same moral “learning curve” to date,…God reminds us, that before we loved Him, He first loved us and gave (and continues to give) Himself as a sacrifice for us,…

    let us pray that God’s redemptive work can still be effective, even in the most stubborn areas of human resistance to His Grace,…Lord, hear our prayer,…

  • Mark P. Shea

    Remember, way back when, when I wrote a column that was about biblical interpretation of miracle accounts and not about the death penalty or whether JPII was one of them damn libruls?

    Good times. Good times.

  • Administrator

    Remember, way back when, when I wrote a column that was about biblical interpretation of miracle accounts and not about the death penalty or whether JPII was one of them damn libruls?

    Good times. Good times.

    Quite right, Mark.

    Back to the article topic, folks. See rule #4.

  • Eric Bohn

    …was to suggest that divine messages can be and are delivered through real world events…

    As I saw it, one of the Points being made in the article and related discussion thread (irrespective of wether or not it was intended by Mark or bill) was that if you trust that it is within the providence of God to take the lives of the good (as Mark believes was the case with JP2) and the wicked (as bill acknowledges with respect to Herod), then who is man to take lives himself?

    Old covenant events were used in this thread to defend modern understandings of the commands of God. However, the old covenants were intended for a fallen people. The 153 fish are symbolic of participants in a new and better covenant. Christians in Christ’s day had faith in God through his Apostles choosen through faith. Mordern man is more likely to place his faith in God through the state.

  • bill bannon

    Memories….where would we be without them [smiley=happy]

  • georgie-ann

    where are all these successfully not-fallen people?

  • Johannes

    Speaking of “whether God was trying to tell us something through the death of John Paul,” the late Fr. William G. Most had a very interesting interpretation of the deaths of two other Popes, namely that the Lord will keep his promise of delivering the papal magisterium from teaching error “by any means necessary”. See towards the end of:
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/SC…MIST.TXT

    “When (thomism vs molinism) debates became acute in Spain, and people were becoming disturbed, Clement VII in 1597 ordered both sides to send a delegation to Rome to have a debate before a commission of Cardinals.

    In March 1602 Clement VIII began to preside in person. In 1605 he very much wanted to bring the debate to a conclusion. So he worked long into the night, and finally came up with a 15 point summary of Augustine’s doctrine on grace, intending to judge Molina’s proposals by it. That would have meant condemnation of Molina and probable approval of the so-called Thomists. But according to an article in 30 Days, No. 5 of 1994, on p. 46, “But, it seems barely had the bull of condemnation been drafted when, on March 3, 1605 Clement VIII died.” Another Pope had died at the right time centuries earlier. The General Council of Constantinople in 681 had drafted a condemnation of Pope Honorius for heresy – which was untrue – Pope Agatho had intended to sign it. But he died before being able. The next Pope, Leo II, having better judgment, agreed only to sign a statement that Honorius had let our doctrine become unclear, in his letters to Sergius, which did not teach the Monothelite heresy, but left things fuzzy.

    So it seems if there be need, God will take a Pope out of this life if needed to keep him from teaching error.”

    Could there be a similar significance in Hans Urs von Balthasar’s death in 1988 just two days before his incardination? Could the Lord have wanted to prevent the Pope from performing what could, in principle, be interpreted as an endorsement of all of von Balthasar’s theology? Only that in this case the logical path was to call von Balthasar to retirement (surely to Heaven), since he was 15 years older than the Pope. This occurred to me after I learned of this dispute over one of von Balthasar’s controversial assertions:
    http://tinyurl.com/2v8vv6j

  • Paul Groves

    Totally agree with Nick Palmer;

    Mark, another nice, sharp, pointy piece. Fun to read. You strike an interesting balance between Chesterton’s witty sarcasm and Lewis’s gentler chiding.

    but Mark a question re the following;

    “Here’s an interesting thing I noticed about the upcoming eclipse: It will occur while it is night in Rome and Poland. As night falls on the Supreme Pontiff and his homeland, God has ordained that it will fall on the rest of the world as well.”

    “night” refers to the shadow of the ecllipse doesn’t it? How could it be anything else? Is that actually what happened?

  • Jackie

    “The basic formula for such reading of the New Testament is, ‘It never happened, and here’s what it means.’ The allegorical interpretation of the non-event becomes the sole reason for recording any New Testament incident.”

    May I suggest that those who agree with Mark’s cogent analysis try substituting the word “Genesis” for “New Testament?

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