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  • Helen Thomas’ Final Solution

    by Simcha Fisher

    You’ve seen this, right?  Helen Thomas, a terrifyingly senior member of the White House press corps, recently took the opportunity to explain her take on international politics  . . . to a rabbi, at an event celebrating Jewish Heritage:

    Kind of harsh, eh?  But it’s cool, it’s cool — she apologized.  According to Fox News:

    In a written statement issued Friday, Thomas apologized, saying, “I deeply regret my comments I made last week regarding the Israelis and the Palestinians.”

    She said the comments “do not reflect” her “heart-felt belief that peace will come to the Middle East only when all parties recognize the need for mutual respect and tolerance.”

    “May that day come soon,” she added.

    So my mind is at ease now.  When she said what she said, it was only because she forgot for a minute that you’re not supposed to publicly root for the annihilation of an entire people.  Poor Helen — ain’t it a pisser when you accidentally say out loud what you really think?

    A couple of days ago, I heard my two-year-old screech, “HEY, some idiot spill’ my water!”

    I said, “Lucy, that’s a mean word – -don’t say that.”

    “Okay,” she says– “So, no idiot spill’ my water.”

    A two-year-old can get away with this.  In a two-year-old’s world, you can just unsay something, and everyone’s happy.   Helen Thomas, on the other hand, ought to know better.  Helen Thomas ought to be sent back where she came from.  

    Bring  sunscreen, Helen — I hear it’s pretty hot down there.  

    I’m going to the beach now, so I won’t be able to respond to anyone who cares to fill the combox with accusations against the Israeli government.  Here’s what I have to say:  the Israelis are guilty of atrocities, and everyone knows it.  But I also know this:   if the Arabs laid down their arms, there would be peace.  If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.

    The views expressed by the authors and editorial staff are not necessarily the views of
    Sophia Institute, Holy Spirit College, or the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts.

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    • Rosie

      Right on.

    • Austin

      OK, we now know what she really thinks, but does it really matter? AIPAC will make a big deal of it, but I don’t see it as a big deal. Even though she is wrong, she is entitled to her opinion. Curious someone in the media would slip like this though.

    • JC

      Actually, I’d like to point that a) Palestinians aren’t necessarily “Arabs”. As Joe Hargrave pointed out to me once, referring to Lebanese as “Arabs” is inaccurate, as they are Syrians..

      Secondly, I think our primary concern should be with Palestinian Christians, who get it from both sides and get little international support.

      Third, if Israel wants to claim that the Holy Land is their Promised Land from the Bible, then shouldn’t they be doing what the Bible says to do to keep it??

      Fourth, my usualy take on this subject is: What would you do if the UN came in and said that they were giving 1/2 of the US to the Native Americans in reparation? (And don’t tell me’s a different situation; it’s not, except that Jews haven’t ruled the Holy Land for well over 2500 years–even Herod the Great wasn’t a Hebrew–and Americans finished stealing this continent a little over a century ago, and we treated them to many atrocities as bad as the Holocaust along the way).

    • ChristopherY

      But I also know this: if the Arabs laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.

      Couldn’t agree more. That being said, I feel for the Palestinians. I know if someone took my home from me, I’d take up arms too. That being said, I don’t think at this point we can just make people “go home.”

      Its been said before and bears saying again. If both sides and put down their guns and make it a safe and peaceful place, the tourists would flock there and make the whole area a ton of money and bring economic stability. Sadly, I think that is just a pipe dream, they’ll be at war until Jesus comes back.

    • Karla

      But I also know this: if the Arabs laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.

      At this point in the game, you’re right. But maybe there shouldn’t be an Israel as it is now. We should be careful to not confuse modern day Israel with God’s Israel. They may not the same thing.

    • Mark

      “What would you do if the UN came in and said that they were giving 1/2 of the US to the Native Americans”

      Jordan = 35,640 square miles
      Israel = 8,019 square miles
      U.S. = 3,537,441 square miles

      I think a more accurate analogy would be approx. 20% of South Dakota. If it included Mount Rushmore, I’d chip in for a giant headdress to put on Teddy.

      And just for the record, there are approx. 3200 Christians in Gaza and 154,000 in Israel (81% are Arabs)

    • Drago Dragov

      I can always count on the folks in the Inside Catholic com boxes to see the trees for the forest when it comes to Israel.

      Israel is faced with extinction every day. The entire Muslim world is waging a war with Israel through proxy armies in Gaza and Lebanon. Israel has tried buy peace since 1993 by giving land back to the Palestinians only to see more vicious attacks on Israeli civilians. Before the blockade, thousands of rockets were fired on Israel from Gaza. Today, not so much.

      When the Palestinians, including all of the Palestinian Christians, reject violence and give up on the idea of exterminating the Jews, then there will be peace.

      Of course, modern Israel is a secular state, and needs to be held accountable for her actions. But, a nation has a right to self defense. America has a right to self defense, despite the fact we are not the Shining City on a Hill, especially lately.

    • Michael

      I don’t she said what people are accusing here of saying. Israel is filling up with Jewish immigrants from around the world, coming from places like Germany and Poland and the U.S. They are displacing people who have long lived in the region based upon some tribal mythology of divine right to real estate. If she sees this as an injustice she should have the right to say so. What she said is miles away from “Let’s kill us some Jews!”

    • Criffton

      I second Michael – immigration to Israel by Jewish people is encouraged. It was in reperation to what happened in Germany and Poland that they were given the land, so that may have given the connection to Germany and Poland. Insofar as the recent history is concerned, they are newcomers and immigrants.

      I think it would be unfair to claim this was a direct link to the Holocaust, an indirect slip of the tongue perhaps, but not a direct link.

      However, this comment is one of the best summaries I have seen:

      Here’s what I have to say: the Israelis are guilty of atrocities, and everyone knows it. But I also know this: if the Arabs laid down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel laid down their arms, there would be no Israel.

    • Tim Shipe

      If by Arab- we are talking about the Palestinians- there have been long stretches of relative non-violence emanating from the Palestinian populace- I was there in the early 90′s and after Oslo there was very little in the way of violence directed at Israel’s population- and how were the Palestinians rewarded? the number of illegal new Israeli settlers into the occupied territories DOUBLED- this was a conscious strategy on the part of Israeli leaders who sought to create new facts on the ground during times of peace, in order to make it more difficult or impossible for the Palestinians to have a contiguous land suitable for a genuine state of their own- now that was the situation that provoked the second intifada which brought on the rash of suicide bombings that now have become the way most Americans think of the Palestinians- but go back to the first Intifada when much of it was non-violent, and much of it was Palestinian youths throwing rocks- and the Israeli response was not to address the underlying just cause of the Palestinian people but rather to go postal and collectively punish the Palestinians and brutally crack–down- with not a peep of protest coming from the American side of things- Me thinks we should take that old plank out of our own eye before leaping to the tired cliches of how Israel is some weak little kitten doing no harm. And since American support has been massively given to the Israeli side of things- we are much more accountable for her sins than the Palestinian side of things- it is like our own neighborhood where I take primary responsibility for the actions of my kids and try like heck to make sure they aren’t provoking anybody else’s kids into doing anything stupid or destructive.

    • Drago

      It must be the Jews’ Fault.

      “Israel is filling up with Jewish immigrants from around the world, coming from places like Germany and Poland and the U.S. They are displacing people who have long lived in the region based upon some tribal mythology of divine right to real estate.”

      Yikes.

      Try this, the meaning of “Got back to Poland,” is really clear to everyone. Maybe she should have been explicit, like the folks on the “Peace Flotilla” who shouted “Go back to Auschwitz.” Maybe then all of the good Catholics here would think twice about he comments the Arab/Muslim states trying to destroy a nation and its people.

      Instead, the consensus here seems to be that the Jews have it coming. The have no right to defend themselves, the have no right to be in Israel, heck, they are not even the right kind of Jews to be in the Middle East, according to you fine, biblical scholars.

    • Austin

      Helen Thomas appears to have gone off the deep end. Perhaps she is suffering from mild dementia or perhaps she has always felt this way, but was able to hide it when she was younger and more coherent? In any event, the rantings of one, old lady is not all that important in the grand scheme of things, Abe Foxman aside, who seems to find anti-semites in every closet.

      The bottom line is that yes, the Israelis have a right to be in Israel, Palestine, or whatever you want to call it, and they have a right to have a nation. The problem however, is that we have a couple million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, and what do we do with them? Some of the more militant Israelis would like to deport them all [most Israelis do not suscribe to this belief], but realistically, they cannot do this. Even the US, who is slavishly obedient to Israel might actually speak up, and the Israelis know that if they alienate the United States, they are in big trouble. Allies? Well, they need us, but do we really need them?

      This leaves us with the situation of Israel having to deal with a couple million Palestinians who hate them, and who are not going away. The flotilla thing was a set-up, I think they wanted trouble and they got it. Israel has a right to ensure that weapons are not coming into Gaza, but they handled the situation very poorly to be kind about it.

      Several US Presidents have tried to “bring about peace in the Middle East” but they always fail. Obama may be a very smart man, but I fail to see how he can change the situation for the better and if he actually believes that he can, he is sadly mistaken, and perhaps a bit arrogant.

      The Israelis and Palestinians need to work out some type of two state solution, but neither party seems interested. The US is in a bad position. We want to support Israel and ensure that their existence as a nation is not threatened, but the attitude of Netanyahu and Likund is one of “you must support us 100%, no matter what we do.” This does not make for a healthy relationship, as many Americans, myself included are growing tired of the whole thing. Helen Thomas may or may not be a raving anti-semite, but just because you do not slavishy agree with AIPAC 100% of the time, does not make you an anti-semite.

      AIPAC is not doing Israel any favors in the long run by attacking any American who disagrees with them. The United States is Israel’s best friend and we will always support them, even if we disagree with them. Attacking Americans who do not support AIPAC 100% is only going to anger and alienate people who are basically friendly to Israel, but are tired of the whole mess. It might be a good idea for Bibi & Co. to treat the US with a little respect for a change.

    • Jean

      Poor Helen. Opened her mouth and inserted her foot up to the kneecap. Someone said, “There’s no fool like an old fool”. Ain’t that the truth! She demonstrated again that wisdom CAN but doesn’t NECESSARILY come with age.
      I’m with Austin in wondering how her remarks slipped through the censorship of the media. Could it be that what she said is a “cat’s paw into the mousehole” for what some media actually think?

    • Ann

      Bring sunscreen, Helen — I hear it’s pretty hot down there.

      Wow. This seems to a be a violation of IC’s Rule #3 for comments, maybe those rules don’t apply to blawgers?

      Don’t make judgments about the other person’s sinfulness or salvation. You are not the Inquisition.

    • Stuart

      I don’t know if any of you noticed or not, but Helen Thomas is of Lebanese descent. Which probably explains her feelings towards the state of Israel.

    • JC

      Stuart,
      Interesting point. Is she any relation to Danny?

      Drago,

      Be careful about ‘consensus’–my belief is that what goes on in Israel and Palestine is nobody’s business but their own. I take the view that if two countries or ethnicities or whatever want to wipe each other out, that’s their business, and the “world community” should mind its own–or condemn everyone equally. After all, that’s why John Foster Dulles started the “Pius XII supports Hitler” myth to begin with. Dulles demanded that the Holy Father condemn the Nazis. The Holy Father said that the Americans and the British and the Russians were engaging in their own atrocities, and he could not rightly condemn the Holocaust without condemning *everyone*.

      As a Christian, I’m concerned about Christianity in Palestine. Back under the so-called “peace” of the 1990s, the Christians started getting it from both ends. I used to read all sorts of articles in _Crisis_ and hear reports on EWTN about the plight of Christians in the Middle East, and how the Jews and Muslims were driving them out. Violence erupted again, and suddenly we’re obligated to protect Israel.

      “Go back to Germany” could mean “Go back to Auschwitz,” or it could mean what some Americans mean when they say “Go back to Mexico.” I really don’t know.

      American Protestants want to protect Israel because they don’t believe in the Church, and they want a seccular state of Israel to fulfill Biblical prophecies and give the Antichrist a place to rear its ugly head.

      I personally just get annoyed by the belief that “we have to protect Israel.” Is Israel a sovereign state, or isn’t it? Israel has to protect itself. We have to protect ourselves. If every nation just bothered itself with protecting itself, there would be peace. As long as we insist on meddling in other people’s business, there will be wars.

    • Brian English

      “I think our primary concern should be with Palestinian Christians, who get it from both sides and get little international support.”

      And how should we express that support?

      “if Israel wants to claim that the Holy Land is their Promised Land from the Bible, then shouldn’t they be doing what the Bible says to do to keep it??”

      I’d be careful making that suggestion.

      “and Americans finished stealing this continent a little over a century ago, and we treated them to many atrocities as bad as the Holocaust along the way).”

      You cannot possibly believe this.

    • Brian English

      The only reason there are “occupied” territories is because the Israelis were attacked. I can understand their reluctance to surrender territory they were attacked from when their enemies continue to insist that the only acceptable resolution to this dispute is for Israel to be destroyed.

      The Israelis forced Israeli settlers out of Gaza, evacuated Gaza, and what did they get in return? Rocket barrages from Gaza.

      “I take primary responsibility for the actions of my kids and try like heck to make sure they aren’t provoking anybody else’s kids into doing anything stupid or destructive.”

      If a neighbor’s kid constantly tells my kids that he intends to kill them, I would tell my children to do everything they had to do to defend themselves, and I would do everything in my power to make the neighbor’s kid understand that his life is going to be very unpleasant as long as his outrageous behavior continues.

    • Rick

      …is her position substantially different than Deal’s, or Mark Shea’s, or other Inside Catholic writers? I ask in all honesty.

      Deal, Mark et al I think would concede a right in theory to a Jewish state within Israel, as part of a two-state solution.

      But given demographic and cultural realities, is such a state viable without continued repression and violence?

      Is such repression and violence morally justifiable, to the degree that would be required to maintain Israel’s viability?

      I think many here on Inside Catholic would say no….meaning, I suppose, that Israeli Jews should relocate…or I suppose live as a dhimmi minority in a new Palestine.

      Please correct me if I’m wrong.

    • Brian English

      If she is Lebanese-American, she should probably vent her rage at Hezbollah, Iran, Syria and the PLO (the Damour Massacre).

    • Michael

      Try this, the meaning of “Got back to Poland,” is really clear to everyone. Maybe she should have been explicit, like the folks on the “Peace Flotilla” who shouted “Go back to Auschwitz.”

      Yikes yourself! Auschwitz is closed and has been for many years. You cannot seriously believe Helen Thomas wants to reopen it can you?

    • Brian English

      “After all, that’s why John Foster Dulles started the “Pius XII supports Hitler” myth to begin with. Dulles demanded that the Holy Father condemn the Nazis. The Holy Father said that the Americans and the British and the Russians were engaging in their own atrocities, and he could not rightly condemn the Holocaust without condemning *everyone*.”

      Nonsense. The Hitler’s Pope idea started in the early-60s because of a play called The Deputy , which was the culmination of communist efforts to discredit Pius XII that had started after WW II.

      “Jews and Muslims were driving them out. Violence erupted again, and suddenly we’re obligated to protect Israel.”

      You actually believe it is Israeli policy to try to drive Christians out of the Middle East? Strange that they were allied with the Maronites in Lebanon.

      “Israel has to protect itself.”

      No one is asking for US troops to go to Israel. Israel can take care of itself on the battlefield (although its performance in Lebanon was shaky). It looks to the US to protect it from the rest of the world piling on economically and diplomatically.

    • Drago

      You’re saying the position of Deal Hudson, Mark Shea, and Inside Catholic is : “As long as the Jews try to have a homeland in Israel, the people of the Middle East will kill them and it’s not worth the bother?”

      I hope not.

      Michael, I’m not dumb. Don’t insult my intelligence by pretending that comment from Helen Thomas was just about recent immigration.

    • Simcha Fisher

      Ann, I didn’t say that I thought she was going to Hell — I said that I thought that’s where she was from. Tell me, from where else does her point of view come?

      For a short article free of the nauseating double standard routinely applied to Israel, see Krauthammer’s op-ed piece for the Washington Post:

      http://tiny.cc/62pjm

      He outlines the three types of self-defense available to a nation, and shows how the global community has forced Israel to abandon each one.

      Israel’s enemies have the stated goal of obliterating Israel from the map. When the global community prevents Israel from defending itself, we can only assume that the global community shares that goal.

      No need to imagine that the modern Israeli state is the chosen people of God! It’s the rest of the world that’s decided that Israel is special — because it alone has no right to defend itself.

    • Bill P

      How many readers are aware of the fact that many sites were considered for the Jewish refugees after WW II? One of the sites was Uganda. The reason the Israeli commandos were successful in the raid on the Entebbe airport in 1976 was the fact that an Israel company had built the airport and had the blueprints. People should refrain from voicing opinions on this subject as most people know so little about it.

    • Anna

      For a short article free of the nauseating double standard routinely applied to Israel, see Krauthammer’s op-ed piece for the Washington Post:

      http://tiny.cc/62pjm

      He outlines the three types of self-defense available to a nation, and shows how the global community has forced Israel to abandon each one.

      Israel’s enemies have the stated goal of obliterating Israel from the map. When the global community prevents Israel from defending itself, we can only assume that the global community shares that goal.

      No need to imagine that the modern Israeli state is the chosen people of God! It’s the rest of the world that’s decided that Israel is special — because it alone has no right to defend itself.

      With all due respect to you, Ms. Fischer, please inform yourself better about the creation of the State of Israel and international law before you assume Krauthammer’s views should be drunk like Kool-Aid. He is far from balanced on this issue. The global community has certainly not forced Israel to abandon its right to defend itself. Its tactics must be in accord with law, human rights, and decency. Proof that the US has not prevented Israel from anything is the fact that we haven’t stopped a penny of our billions of aid to them. Palestine is not a state, the citizens there have no rights as citizens, they are an occupied territory. That the modern Israeli state is “the chosen people of God” is certainly not a Catholic perspective. It is frustrating to have people spout of info without really knowing much about it.

    • Tim Shipe

      I recently heard Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Catholic Answers Radio say that in Israel, 80% of the people are atheists or agnostics- it is a very secular state despite the reputation- it also begs the question of what does it mean to be Jewish- Who is a Jew? Is it a cultural thing? a biological- my mom was Jewish thing? Or is it a belief in Judaism/The Torah?

      It seems a very important question as Americans collectively and most Christians and Catholics as well, have taken the secular Jewish narrative of what went down and what is going down in the Holy Land the past several decades, and have soundly rejected the Palestinian Catholic communities’ and Latin Patriarch’s viewpoints on what the real story has been and what America should do. Why is that exactly? Has anyone commenting here actually spent time in a Palestinian city, town, or village? I know that Deal Hudson has, I have. I know that I don’t have a grudge against Jews, I grew up in a suburb of many Jews, I have had close friends and relationships with Jews and “half-Jews” again definitions get murky when you take away belief in Judaism. I know that I want to see Jews, Arabs, Israelis and Palestinians get things sorted out and I believe it definitely could happen with a lot of influence peddling from our superpower State- but alas, most – like the blogger here are so sure of the secular Jewish narrative and so sure that the Palestinian Catholics are missing the true situation that they see 24-7- don’t they read Charlie K. in the Washington Post- he’s a better source than the Latin Patriarch or most any Palestinian clergy??

      I think that the next time my American Catholic friends go on a Holy Land pilgrimage- make it more than a tourist vacation- take in something of the human landscape- you know several billions of American dollars goes straight to the Israeli authorities every year now for decades- we have totally put our seal of approval on everything Israel has done with regard to the Palestinians- there has never been a serious threat to reduce our billions or military technology, never been a threat to publicly criticize Israel’s nuclear arsenal, never been a threat to go along with the rest of the world in the international agencies that have tried to criticize Israel for violations of international law and human rights- so don’t pretend like Americans who support Israel are some weaklings compared to Israel critics- you have won every fight- you have done your best to destroy the Palestinian Catholic community as you now re-write history and claim it was the radical jihadist fault- never Israel- well you are succeeding- it doesn’t matter if there is a liberal Democrat President or a Conservative Republican- the support and praise for Israel at the top levels of our society has always been consistent- but you can’t even accept some criticism of Israel on a blog? What more could you possibly want for the secularized, pro-abortion State of Israel?

    • Rick

      in Israel, 80% of the people are atheists or agnostics- it is a very secular state

      So what if Israel is secular? That’s the whole point.

      The Middle East does not need another Islamic state, particularly in the Holy Land — and especially one that would rule millions of Jews and control access for Christian pilgrims.

      It’s obvious this is a recipe for pogrom after progrom, isn’t it?

      And I would expect Holy Land access for Christians to become very expensive…not only in jizya, but in more mega mosque approvals in the West, more accommodation of Sharia practices in the West (even where they violate fundamental human rights), more deference to he-who-cannot-be-drawn, less boldness in preaching the Gospel.

      I only wish Christians in Pakistan had the comfort of a secular state to call home.

    • Brian English

      “I recently heard Fr. Mitch Pacwa on Catholic Answers Radio say that in Israel, 80% of the people are atheists or agnostics- it is a very secular state despite the reputation- it also begs the question of what does it mean to be Jewish- Who is a Jew?”

      How about we let the Jews decide that?

      “Has anyone commenting here actually spent time in a Palestinian city, town, or village? I know that Deal Hudson has, I have.”

      And what super-secret knowledge would we gain by living in that village? The 1948 attempt to destroy Israel actually happened; the Six-Day War in 1967 actually happened; the massacre at Munich of the Israeli Olympic Team in 1972 actually happened; the Yom Kippur War in 1973 actually happened; the jet hijackings in the ’70s actually happened; the terrorist attacks and suicide bombings the past few decades have actually happened; the murder of Jews in Argentina (!!) by Hezlollah actually happened; the rocket barrages on Israeli villages in the past decade actually happened. What would I learn in that Palestinian village that would make all that go away?

      Muslim political and religious leaders have stated for years that the destruction of Israel is their ultimate goal. How would living in a Palestinian village convinve me that that goal is acceptable?

      “you have won every fight- you have done your best to destroy the Palestinian Catholic community as you now re-write history and claim it was the radical jihadist fault- never Israel-”

      Please. Refusing to make excuses for terrorists is not re-writing history. If you were really interested in helping Palestinian Catholics you would be advocating the annihilation of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the extreme elements in Fatah.

    • Ann

      “Bring sunscreen”….That seems to be saying that she will be going to Hell.

    • Pammie

      “I’m with Austin in wondering how her remarks slipped through the censorship of the media. Could it be that what she said is a “cat’s paw into the mousehole” for what some media actually think?”

      “I don’t know if any of you noticed or not, but Helen Thomas is of Lebanese descent. Which probably explains her feelings towards the state of Israel.”

      In case a few of you may not have noticed, there are more jews in the worldwide media empire than those of Lebanese ancestry. If it is racist to point out that this may influence the reporting of news and opinions about Israel, then may we also hold ourselves to the same standard when questioning the role ethnicity plays in the reporting of the other side? Seems fair, but unlikely.

      “If a neighbor’s kid constantly tells my kids that he intends to kill them, I would tell my children to do everything they had to do to defend themselves, and I would do everything in my power to make the neighbor’s kid understand that his life is going to be very unpleasant as long as his outrageous behavior continues.”

      Let’s have a more accurate analogy. Suppose some one comes and takes your property by force and tells you and your kids to get out. They spit on you and your kids, treat them like animals and threatened them with violence if they don’t get with the program, wouldn’t you also “do everything in your power to make the the neighbor’s kid understand that his life is going to be very unpleasant as long as his outrageous behaviour continues”? That’s how some Palestinians feel too.

      My philosophy about this issue and any other situation is this: If I wouldn’t like it done to me, then I don’t expect others will either: my own take on the “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I see palestinians and jews BOTH as PEOPLE with the SAME basic human rights, including the right to private property.

      When any of you, including Ms Fisher, is cheerfully willing to undergo what has been done to the Palestinians for the sake of immigrating strangers from around the world , then all this moral outrage will ring more true.

    • Brian English

      “Let’s have a more accurate analogy. Suppose some one comes and takes your property by force and tells you and your kids to get out.”

      If I had used my property as a launching point for attacks on my neighbor, then the neighbor would be justified in trying to prevent me from doing so in the future.

      “I see palestinians and jews BOTH as PEOPLE with the SAME basic human rights, including the right to private property.”

      The right to life trumps the right to private property. The West Bank and Gaza were conquered during a war initiated by the surrounding Arab states. Perhaps the Arab states should have thought about the people living in those areas before they launched a war of aggression.

      “When any of you, including Ms Fisher, is cheerfully willing to undergo what has been done to the Palestinians for the sake of immigrating strangers from around the world , then all this moral outrage will ring more true.”

      There were millions of refugees created by wars in the last century. People settled in new places and created new lives (including hundreds of thousands of Jews kicked out of Islamic countries well before the Six-Day War). Why is it that only with regard to this specific territory that there is this incessant demand that the prior occupants be returned?

    • Bob Foster

      Helen Thomas is a fiendish old leftist. I’ve always despised that woman, but she’s especiallly loathsome in this clip.

    • Austin

      Nobody has answered the question of what to do with the Palestinians. There are over 2,000,000 of them, at least, in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel would like to be rid of them, but they do have a right to be there. What exactly does Israel do with them? Even if they all agreed to leave, no Arab state or states is going to take them, plus why should they have to leave their own land?

      I don’t see any solution to this, but I don’t believe that Israel and the Palestinians can keep going on with “business as usual.” Sooner or later, the American people are going to wash their hands of Israel or at least cut back support to a level which does not provide for the Israelis to assume that they will always be backed up, no matter what. Demographics do not favor the Israelis, and they know it. The solution is not to just do whatever Bibi tells us. AIPAC needs to come up with some sort of comprehensive solution and sell it to all parties, rather than just smear and slander Americans who do not agree with them 100%.

    • Pammie

      “If I had used my property as a launching point for attacks on my neighbor, then the neighbor would be justified in trying to prevent me from doing so in the future.”

      That’s the point Brian. You have NO property. Your new neighbor is now living on your property and diverting water from the ditch you and your kids are drinking from and living by. If the people next to you in the ditch launch a missle against the new owners, then you will also be punished for it because you didn’t prevent your fellow ditch dweller’s crime. You live next to the perp so it is assumed that you knew all about it. There is no one for you to appeal to and if some(or all) of your kids are killed while your overlord is chasing him down , I’m sure you will understand and sympathise with the security problems the new owner of your house is facing. Because after all, you are GUILTY of living close by and not leaving. You are GUILTY because you are the wrong race and religion.

      “There were millions of refugees created by wars in the last century. People settled in new places and created new lives…”

      No doubt. Name another country created exclusively by UN manifesto against the wishes of the native population with outside money, arms and violence. This country should also give superior rights and exist specifically to advance the political aims of the favoured population (religion and race predetermined) to the detriment and exclusion of all others living there. What WAS private property is now seized for the benefit of the favoured people, because they deserve it and have more power.

      “The right to life trumps the right to private property.”

      And? There are teeming poor and war refugees from around the world RIGHT NOW willing to take any of your property you want to give them. If you decline, do you also support their right to take it from you according to their need? What if they have a big superpower (or your government) on their side? Would that make it right and would you feel better about losing everything you own? Unless you can answer yes to these questions you don’t have a moral leg to stand on and no right to judge so harshly someone to whom these things have happened.

    • Peter

      It will get harder and harder for the Israeli state, as it is now, to survive because it has taken an apartheid approach to the way it handles its problems. Which means it has significantly contributed to the oppression that fuels the anger and hatred against them. Its policies have not only contributed to Christian Palestinians leaving in droves but to a Palestinian economy that has completely collapsed, and the result is atrocious numbers of young unemployed Palestinian men who are trapped. The Palestinians are still having babies, however, and the sheer numbers are going to change the dynamics in the Holy Land.

      It is important to remember that Hamas has a number of branches. One branch is militant but the larger part of it acts as a social service organization and is the only way many families get any help. Most Palestinians want peace, but you don’t bite the hand that feeds you, even if you don’t like all their tactics.

      No matter what you think of the origins of the Israeli state, it is there now and there are solutions that many wise and knowledgeable people have proposed. Israel must lead the way because the Palestinians are not on equal footing – they are not a state, they do no have the rights of citizens, they do not have aid and billions of funding, they are the ones who had their land taken from them and continue to have their property, vineyards and homes taken away in large numbers.

      It is very wise advice for people to go visit the Holy Land and see what things are like on the ground there. It may not change some of your views, but it does change your perspective because you get a better taste of the day-to-day realities Israelis and Palestinians face and the complexities of the conflict there. Many conservatives gained different views when the visited the area and saw for themselves other sides to the story the believed they knew. The late journalist Robert Novak comes to mind. It is not about being pro or against either side, it’s about being pro-peace and justice and truth the best ways to attain it.

    • Stuart

      Stuart,
      Interesting point. Is she any relation to Danny?

      Drago,

      Be careful about ‘consensus’–my belief is that what goes on in Israel and Palestine is nobody’s business but their own. I take the view that if two countries or ethnicities or whatever want to wipe each other out, that’s their business, and the “world community” should mind its own–or condemn everyone equally. After all, that’s why John Foster Dulles started the “Pius XII supports Hitler” myth to begin with. Dulles demanded that the Holy Father condemn the Nazis. The Holy Father said that the Americans and the British and the Russians were engaging in their own atrocities, and he could not rightly condemn the Holocaust without condemning *everyone*.

      As a Christian, I’m concerned about Christianity in Palestine. Back under the so-called “peace” of the 1990s, the Christians started getting it from both ends. I used to read all sorts of articles in _Crisis_ and hear reports on EWTN about the plight of Christians in the Middle East, and how the Jews and Muslims were driving them out. Violence erupted again, and suddenly we’re obligated to protect Israel.

      “Go back to Germany” could mean “Go back to Auschwitz,” or it could mean what some Americans mean when they say “Go back to Mexico.” I really don’t know.

      American Protestants want to protect Israel because they don’t believe in the Church, and they want a seccular state of Israel to fulfill Biblical prophecies and give the Antichrist a place to rear its ugly head.

      I personally just get annoyed by the belief that “we have to protect Israel.” Is Israel a sovereign state, or isn’t it? Israel has to protect itself. We have to protect ourselves. If every nation just bothered itself with protecting itself, there would be peace. As long as we insist on meddling in other people’s business, there will be wars.

      To answer your question JC: No, Helen Thomas is not related to Danny Thomas and his daughter Marlo. I did some research on Wikipedia on this very subject. Although both are of Lebanese descent, they were of different religious backgrounds: Helen is Greek Orthodox while Danny was Maronite. Also, Danny Thomas’ real last name was Yahkoob.

    • Mark P. Shea

      Helen Thomas is blunt, but is her position substantially different than Deal’s, or Mark Shea’s, or other Inside Catholic writers? I ask in all honesty.

      Deal, Mark et al I think would concede a right in theory to a Jewish state within Israel, as part of a two-state solution.

      But given demographic and cultural realities, is such a state viable without continued repression and violence?

      Can’t speak for Deal, but I’m frankly astounded that you could wonder if Thomas’ “Jews get out of Israel!” is “substantially different” from my “Jews have a right to an Israeli homeland”. Of course it is! Come on!

      As to the question of whether such a state is viable without continued repression and violence, I suppose my question is, “I dunno. But it would be interesting to see the Israelis try it for once.”

      My principal beef has been that, for American conservatives, absolutely nothing Israel does, from the settlements to the slaughter of civilians in camps to spying on the US is ever, you know, *wrong*. The pernicious human tradition of the Immaculate Conception of the State of Israel and her preservation from all sin, both original and actual is one of the dumbest falsehoods we have embraced in the Land Where There are Only Two Sides to Every Question. And the proof of it is precisely that somebody could be silly enough to conclude that any critic of Israel, even when he clearly states his belief in Israel’s right to exist, must *really* deep down be held indistinguishable from Helen Thomas if he is on record for criticizing Israel.

      Idiotic.

    • JC

      “if Israel wants to claim that the Holy Land is their Promised Land from the Bible, then shouldn’t they be doing what the Bible says to do to keep it??”

      I’d be careful making that suggestion.

      Then Republicans should stop appealing to the Bible in support of Israel. It is hypocritical to say, “the Bible gives us this land,” and get people’s support by appealing to the Bible, but then ignore the conditions the Bible places on that promise–whether the condition is genocide or forgiveness of debt.
      My point is that every Jew or Republican who appeals to the Bible as a reason to support the modern secular state of Israel should be careful of bringing it up *at all*.

      You cannot possibly believe this

      We’ve debated history before, and you’ve shown your allegiance to a purely jingoistic view of America is Perfect. I’ll go with G. K. Chesterton, who says a true patriot is willing to criticize his country’s faults.
      So, we’ve lived in perfect peace with Native Americans for 500 years ? Or do you buy into the jingoist lies that it was all *their* fault (even though many of the “evil Indian practices,” such as scalping, were learned from Europeans to begin with?)

      As for the claim that Palestine is occupied terroritory, several people have referred to what the Palestinians have done *since* Israel was founded. What about *when* it was founded?

      Mass numbers of illegal Jewish immigrants came into Palestine and forced the Palestinians off their own property. Any American Republican who opposes illegal immigration is being a hypocrite, and needs to change his or her position, one way or another. Either illegal immigration is OK, or the Palestinians have a point.

      The UN stepped in and declared, arbitrarily, that this portion of Palestine–whatever its geographic percentage–which also happens to contain all the major historical cities–was now a Jewish state, and the people who lived there to begin with had no right to be there, and had to shuffle off to the boondocks.

      This would *not* be equivalent to giving the Native Americans half of South Dakota. The UN didn’t say, “Here’s a part of the Palestinian desert no one wants to live in. You can have that.” It said, “You guys can have the prime real estate, and we’ll let the Palestinians have the unwanted desert because they can go live in other Muslim countries.” It would be equivalent to giving them the Eastern Seaboard, or at least New York and New England, and telling everyone who lives there to move.

      Every day, I hear Republicans talk about the right to gun ownership, and the right to protect their homes. Yet when I ask what they’d do if they were in the Palestinians’ situation, they balk or deny the analogy.

      I don’t particularly support the Palestinians *or* the Israelis. I acknowledge that both sides are guilty of atrocities, and atrocities are never justified. Self-defense is justified; retaliation is not.

    • JC
    • Brian English

      “That’s the point Brian. You have NO property.”

      Because my “friends” launched a war from my property.

      “Name another country created exclusively by UN manifesto against the wishes of the native population with outside money, arms and violence.”

      That happened 62 years ago. At a certain point you have to move on. You may disagree with what the UN did, but just a few years after 6 million Jews were murdered, installing the remaining Jews in a Jewish State in their traditional homeland doesn’t seem like such a crazy idea.

      “And? There are teeming poor and war refugees from around the world RIGHT NOW willing to take any of your property you want to give them.”

      My point is, as long as the Palestinians and their allies refuse to acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, they are really in no position to complain about Israel occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza.

    • Mark

      “My principal beef has been that, for American conservatives, absolutely nothing Israel does, from the settlements to the slaughter of civilians in camps to spying on the US is ever, you know, *wrong*”

      This is simply not true. Almost every conservative I’ve heard has prefaced his/her opinions with a statement along the lines of “of course Israel is guilty of wrong behavior that needs to be corrected, however..”

      Those of us on the right are put on the defensive so often by the constant jewbashers that our legitimate criticisms of Israel would often lack prudence if we incorporated it into the discussion at that time. Similarly, when people try to tell me that the Church is little more than idiots financially supporting child molestors, I don’t at that time think it prudent to qualify my response by citing the wrongs of the Church first.

      Iran continually calls for the elimination of Israel and the Hamas Charter states that every Jew should be killed (finishing the work Hitler started) but apparently it will take something drastic like Hezbollah calling for the waterboarding of a handful of Israeli criminals for some to wake up and see reality for what it is.

    • Brian English

      “My point is that every Jew or Republican who appeals to the Bible as a reason to support the modern secular state of Israel should be careful of bringing it up *at all*.”

      You brought up the Bible, not me. The presence of the Jewish People in the area that is now Israel is a matter of historical fact. The Bible attests to that fact, but is far from the only support for it.

      “We’ve debated history before, and you’ve shown your allegiance to a purely jingoistic view of America is Perfect.”

      Nonsense. The treatment of the Indians at certain points was terrible. However, to claim that treatment amounted to “many atrocities as bad as the Holocaust” is ignorant, and shows a lack of knowledge about both American History and the Holocaust.

      “As for the claim that Palestine is occupied terroritory, several people have referred to what the Palestinians have done *since* Israel was founded. What about *when* it was founded?”

      As I indicated in my response to Pammie, that was 62 years ago, and the world community was struggling with how to deal with the fact that 6 million Jews had just been murdered.

      You may not like the UN’s solution, but using it to justify attacks on Israel today is ridiculous.

      “Every day, I hear Republicans talk about the right to gun ownership, and the right to protect their homes. Yet when I ask what they’d do if they were in the Palestinians’ situation, they balk or deny the analogy.”

      I would not have elected Hamas, and I would tell Muslim political and religious leaders to recant their claims that Israel must be destroyed.

    • Rachel

      Those of us on the right are put on the defensive so often by the constant jewbashers that our legitimate criticisms of Israel would often lack prudence if we incorporated it into the discussion at that time. Similarly, when people try to tell me that the Church is little more than idiots financially supporting child molestors, I don’t at that time think it prudent to qualify my response by citing the wrongs of the Church first.

      It would be actually very prudent to qualify your responses to such things. It is only by establishing a common ground of agreement that progress can be made on difficult issues. I personally don’t see “jewbashers” among most reputable people who criticize the state of Israel. It’s not about bashing Jews, it’s about criticizing the Israeli government and military — two different things.

    • Rick

      “My principal beef has been that, for American conservatives, absolutely nothing Israel does, from the settlements to the slaughter of civilians in camps to spying on the US is ever, you know, *wrong*.”

      Yes, Mark, I’m familiar with your meme. My response is that while you, Deal, et al concede Israel’s right to exist and to security in theory, in fact you deem most concrete measures unjust or disproportionate…from security walls and fences, to checkpoints, to blockades, to unintended civilian deaths when targeting rocket launchers.

      As to the question of whether such a state is viable without continued repression and violence, I suppose my question is, “I dunno. But it would be interesting to see the Israelis try it for once.”

      C’mon, Mark that’s a cop-out. If targeting Palestinian rocket launchers co-located with civilians is intrinsically evil, if occupying buffer zones is unjust, if a blockade is against the moral and international law, then how can Israel morally protect itself from a determined militant minority ideologically committed to its destruction?

      There’s only one answer, isn’t there? By picking up stakes and moving…just like the old Crusader Kingdoms did.

    • Pammie

      (Shudder)
      June 07th, 2010 | 12:22pm
      Helen Thomas is a fiendish old leftist. I’ve always despised that woman, but she’s especiallly loathsome in this clip.
      Written by Bob Foster

      Just curious. Is it her wrinkled, old lady’s face,her Lebanese facial features or her leftist politics that make you shudder? Do you also shudder at extreme closeups of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Madelyn Albright, Bella Abzug, Golda Meir et al, all of whose leftist agendas have had more effect on your life than Helen Thomas’ could ever hope to have? There are no beauty queens among them either from what I remember, but none of them has ever made me shudder. More double standard I suspect and one that is culturally acceptable to a greater number of people.

    • Austin

      If Helen Thomas looked like Christie Brinkley and was young, her views would still be obnoxious. As far as being “fiendish” I think that may be a stretch. She is a crazy, old lady. Enough feigned outrage already.

      I’ve heard some “conservatives” especially men, but not always, make jokes about Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Janet Reno, etc., and how ugly they are, and then chortle about how attractive “conservative women” such as Sarah Palin, Carrie Prejean, Ann Coulter, etc. are. Rather amusing to say the least and way off point, although Coulter herself sometimes brings this up. Still, I wonder if Palin were ugly, would she be where she is?

    • Pat

      Yes, Mark, I’m familiar with your meme. My response is that while you, Deal, et al concede Israel’s right to exist and to security in theory, in fact you deem most concrete measures unjust or disproportionate…from security walls and fences, to checkpoints, to blockades, to unintended civilian deaths when targeting rocket launchers

      .
      Rick, you are distorting things. Deal Hudson and others have written numerous times in the past that a security fence or wall is justifiable SO LONG AS IT’S BUILT ON ESTABLISHED LEGAL BORDERS, which is the Green Line, and which Israel has utterly ignored. That checkpoints are justifiable SO LONG AS THE PALESTINIANS CAN REASONABLY MOVE FROM HOME TO WORK AND SCHOOL and not be completely debilitated. That unintended civilian deaths are inevitable, BUT NOT WHOLESALE ATTACKS ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND HOMES DISPROPORTIONATE TO PALESTINIAN ROCKETS.

    • Pammie

      Austin asked:

      “Nobody has answered the question of what to do with the Palestinians. There are over 2,000,000 of them, at least, in Gaza and the West Bank.”

      Send some of them to live in Brian and Mark’s neighbourhood. They won’t mind at all and will be glad to come to the aid of a poor and persecuted people. I’m sure their neighbours won’t mind either and if there is a little friction here and there, Brian and Mark won’t mind being blamed and punished economically and otherwise for what they have no control over.

      In fact if all those willing to support unlimited jewish immigration and expansion in the Holy Land would just step up and volunteer their property, assets and livlihoods to those who have been displaced all this strife could be ended in a much more timely fashion. And they would be putting THEIR money where their mouth is instead of someone else’s.

    • Pammie

      “Enough feigned outrage already.”

      No outrage on my part, so no need to fake it. Austin , I’m not a fan of Helen Thomas by any means but what she said is a political opinion that is shared by lots of people I suspect. Whether or not she is a “crazy old lady” is again a matter of opinion not shared (it seems) by her employer.I despise the notion of political correctness, where everyone is supposed to parrot the “received wisdom” on any given subject or face a pile-on by people who disagree and have access to the media.

      I didn’t hear Ms.Thomas say for “jews” to go anywhere. That was the questioner’s phraesology. The first part of his question referred to “Israeli’s and their activities in the past week”. Seeing as how this comes from a jewish site and seemingly questions the role of ethnicity in unbiased reporting, don’t you think it’s more than a little ironic? So who is really “feigning outrage” here? Not I.

      By the way, when was the last Christian Heritage celebration at the White House? I must have missed it.

    • Brian English

      “In fact if all those willing to support unlimited jewish immigration and expansion in the Holy Land would just step up and volunteer their property, assets and livlihoods to those who have been displaced all this strife could be ended in a much more timely fashion.”

      As long as the Palestinians and their allies insist that Israel has to be destroyed, there will not be an end to the strife.

      And who here has called for unlimited Jewish expansion? The Israelis were in Gaza and the West Bank because they were attacked. They handed over Gaza and got rockets in return. What would be their motivation now to make any concessions with regard to the West Bank?

    • Pammie

      Brian, all you hawkish , Israeli supporters do as I suggested previously. Give them the value of what they lost and legal citizenship here. There won’t be a Palestinian left in The Holy Land and we won’t have to worry about all the rest. What’s 2,000,000 more people when our government has already allowed 20,000,000 to live here against the law? Think how happy you will make the Israelis! And we can all move on to another topic.

    • Bob Foster

      Well, Bella Abzug made me shudder, back in the day.

      I take back the adjective “fiendish.” That was overstating it. A little. I guess.

      As a general rule I’d say that Lebanese women are quite attractive. Maybe Helen Thomas was, too, a hundred years ago.

      Anyway, she’s still a leftist — only now she’s an unemployed leftist

    • Brian English

      “Brian, all you hawkish , Israeli supporters do as I suggested previously. Give them the value of what they lost and legal citizenship here.”

      Until the right for Israel to exist is validated by all Muslim countries, you will not have peace.

      You could buy every Palestinian family their own island (the Saudi royal family could afford to) and their would still be no peace. The reason is, this is not about the Palestinians. You think the other Muslim countries care about the Palestinians? If they did, the Palestinians would have been incoporated into other countries long ago.

      The problem is, Israel is located on land that was once ruled by Muslims, and Jews now ruling that land is unacceptable. That is why none of the Muslim countries will commit to ensuring Israel’s existence. Israel’s existence is an abomination to them.

    • Austin

      I have found Helen Thomas to be annoying and something of a publicity hound. How often did she wear a red dress and try to do anything to get the President to call on her at White House Press Conferences. Yes, she broke some ground as a female reporter, but she seems to be someone who has stayed too long and worn out their welcome. She obviously hates the Israelis, and I suppose she is entitled to her opinion, but she is not entitled to a forum to expound on it.

      All that being said, we still have the problem of the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. The fact that many of them are quite obnoxious and advocate the destruction of Israel, does not make the problem go away. It seems to me, who knows very little, but still inflicts my opinions on others, that there is really not enough land there for two states. Gaza is tiny, and the West Bank is not much bigger. Palestinian militants can lob rockets and mortar shells into Israel fairly easilly and are perhaps too close for comfort.
      I wonder if there could be a small Palestinian state on the West Bank, that is affiliated with Jordan, while the population of Gaza is relocated to other Arab states? To sweeten the offer, have Israel pay much of the cost of relocation.

      I understand that people will scream at the idea of relocation of any Palestinians, but given the squalor of Gaza, it might be better for them to be relocated to another Arab country, with some financial assistance to help them get started. If this plan would get rid of the problem of Gaza, it would be money well spent by the Israelis to help finance moving them elsewhere. I understand that my idea is full of holes, but I toss it out for consideration, as nothing else, especially the status quo seems to be working? Comments?

    • Gel Mibson

      We just favor dissolving their country, giving it to people sworn to kill them all, and offering them a plane ticket to countries that tried to kill them all 60 years ago if they don’t like it. But we don’t hate them.

    • georgie-ann

      as long as people “who self-admittedly don’t know much” are dreaming, i might as well throw in my $.02,…(-;

      (hi, Austin!)

      why doesn’t the UN “do something ELSE” now?,…like establish an International Neutral Zone of the Holy City, Jerusalem, (saying “it’s too hot to handle” or something),…or sub-divide it into a minimum of three parts (Jewish, Christian and Muslim) so that it’s not a territorial issue between ONLY the mutually hating/warring factions of Jews vs. Muslims,…(& maybe it already is somewhat–i wouldn’t really know–but it sounds like the Jews have strong control over there to an outsider like me),…

      perhaps once the “City” Itself is redefined and established as an International, Visitable, Safe Place, “on behalf of the Whole World,” the surrounding deserts could be more equitably divided and dispersed, with less jealousy and possessiveness, and personal and cultural “attachment” issues arising every morning,…

      on the other hand, doesn’t that sound like a perfect set-up for the Anti-Christ?,…maybe we should be glad for the instability that we currently have going for us,…

      well, i said i was dreaming,…i kind of also like the idea of relocating Palestinians, but–then again–i’m not one,…and not being a huge fan of hot desert terrain myself, i can’t see there being much essential difference between one desert and another, especially if a promise of peace and safety and aid to make the switch were offered,…maybe we could throw in a Disneyland or a Gigantic Waterpark for free as incentives and perks?,…i mean, after all,…what are people “really looking for (as in hungering and thirsting for) these days, anyway?”

      surely Mickey Mouse trumps bullets and bombs,…isn’t this what “modern life” has been trying to teach us in these here blessed United States for the last 40 years or so?,…just sayin’,…

      (not much,…this is what happens to the mind that ODs on frustration and futility after awhile),…

    • Pammie

      “That is why none of the Muslim countries will commit to ensuring Israel’s existence.”

      Israel is the only country I know of whose supporters (not just citizens) expect others to ensure their existence. When has ANY nation ever had the “the right to exist”. Name ONE. Even the authentic godly nation of Israel in the Old Testament ceased to exist by God’s Providence. This catch phrase means nothing , is a red herring for the minions and useful for all kinds of justifications and sticky situations the Israeli government finds itself in.

      As for the Palestinians, you cannot bring yourself to see them on an equal human basis with the Israelis. Neither can the Israelis. We can argue all day long but the bottom line is that you believe in the superiority of one group of people over another, as do the Israelis. And you expect others to live in a way that you would never consider for yourself or your family.

      When they throw them out of their houses in Jerusalem, that’s ok with you and Mark ’cause doggone it , that’s the jewish people’s property. No matter it’s been in the same Palestinians’ family for generations. That not only happened 62 years ago but it’s happening today. That’s WRONG Brian according to civilised and unprejudice people, and no amount of argy-bargy will convince the fairminded otherwise.

    • georgie-ann

      is there once again repeated in these countries–the same as we see elsewhere–a dichotomy between the “very nice” simple, relatively innocent and “well-meaning” populace that WOULD like peace, and the power-wielding agents of war and violence that govern them?,…

      it is easy to feel sorry for “innocent” civilians on any side, but what do you do about governments?,…we don’t even know what to do about our own,…

      sorry,…that’s $.03 now, and way beyond my capacity to be worth listening to,..

    • Brian English

      “Israel is the only country I know of whose supporters (not just citizens) expect others to ensure their existence.”

      When the Muslim countries are the ones financing terrorism and threatening to destroy Israel, then yes, it would be necessary for them to ensure that all of that was over.

      “When has ANY nation ever had the “the right to exist”. Name ONE. Even the authentic godly nation of Israel in the Old Testament ceased to exist by God’s Providence.”

      You appear to believe there was a country called Palestine that has a right to exist. And I like the “authentic godly” bit. Nice contrast with those inauthentic, zionist, phony Jews, Europeans who live in Israel now, right?

      “As for the Palestinians, you cannot bring yourself to see them on an equal human basis with the Israelis. Neither can the Israelis.”

      Nonsense. It is the Palestinians who show their children cartoons where the Jews are depicted as apes and pigs. The Israelis also have Arab representatives in the Knesset. How many elected officials in Muslim countries are Jewish?

      “We can argue all day long but the bottom line is that you believe in the superiority of one group of people over another, as do the Israelis.”

      The bottom line is, you want Israel gone. You cannot even bring yourself to state that the Muslim countries should stop threatening to destroy it.

      “That not only happened 62 years ago but it’s happening today. That’s WRONG Brian according to civilised and unprejudice people, and no amount of argy-bargy will convince the fairminded otherwise.”

      If you and your friends in Hamas refuse to move towards peace, you will have war, and all the misery that comes with it. And it is very funny to see you trying to represent yourself as unprejudiced.

    • Pammie

      “You appear to believe there was a country called Palestine that has a right to exist.

      I’ve said time and time again I would like to see a international Holy Land that is governed by representatives of the 3 major religions, where everyone has equal access and equal rights . So no Brian, I don’t think “Palestine ” has a “right to exist”. No country does.

      “And I like the “authentic godly” bit. Nice contrast with those inauthentic, zionist, phony Jews, Europeans who live in Israel now, right?”

      Correct. I am not a Christian Zionist. My beliefs are consistent with the teachings of the RC Church. More than one Orthodox Jewish group (the ones that actually PRACTICE their religion) also does not recognize modern Israel as the creation and agent of the Almighty as you and your fellow believers do. They find modern Israel to be inhabited mainly by atheists and the Rabbis themselves are always concerned with the “authentic jew”. Nothing to do with me really, or you.

      “The bottom line is, you want Israel gone. You cannot even bring yourself to state that the Muslim countries should stop threatening to destroy it.”

      Yes well, if you think that it’s necessary for me to say that about the only middle eastern country with a nuclear arsenal. then I will be happy to oblige. Attention Muslim countries: Don’t attack Israel. Better?

      “That not only happened 62 years ago but it’s happening today. That’s WRONG Brian according to civilised and unprejudice people, and no amount of argy-bargy will convince the fairminded otherwise.”(pammie)

      Now can you possibly bring YOURSELF to say that it’s wrong for Israel, right now as we speak, to ethnically clense Jerusalem of Palestinans both Christians and moslem?

      “If you and your friends in Hamas refuse to move towards peace, you will have war, and all the misery that comes with it. And it is very funny to see you trying to represent yourself as unprejudiced.”

      Yes Brian, anyone who disagrees with the Christian zionist position is by definition a “friend of Hamas” and prejudice to boot. That makes perfect sense to you, Abe Foxman and to all who think as you do. Thankfully it resonates as a unreasonable and untenable position to more and more people and one may hope for a better future in the Holy Land than she has seen in the past.

    • Brian English

      “My beliefs are consistent with the teachings of the RC Church.”

      The Vatican does not consider Israel to be a Jewish state?

      “More than one Orthodox Jewish group (the ones that actually PRACTICE their religion) also does not recognize modern Israel as the creation and agent of the Almighty as you and your fellow believers do.”

      Who said anything about Israel being created by God? It was created because 6 million Jews had been murdered during WW II.

      “Yes well, if you think that it’s necessary for me to say that about the only middle eastern country with a nuclear arsenal. then I will be happy to oblige. Attention Muslim countries: Don’t attack Israel. Better?”

      Yes, that nuclear arsenal has prevented Israel from being attacked in the past. You just can’t bring yourself to say that the Muslim nations should renounce their call for the destruction of Israel.

      “Now can you possibly bring YOURSELF to say that it’s wrong for Israel, right now as we speak, to ethnically clense Jerusalem of Palestinans both Christians and moslem?”

      What an absurd statement. If you want to see ethnic cleansing of Christians, take a look at the various Muslim nations, as well as your Palestinian friends.

      “Yes Brian, anyone who disagrees with the Christian zionist position is by definition a “friend of Hamas” and prejudice to boot.”

      Explain to me how your position on Israel differs from that of Hamas.

      “Thankfully it resonates as a unreasonable and untenable position to more and more people and one may hope for a better future in the Holy Land than she has seen in the past.”

      And how exactly will this better future arrive?

    • Pammie

      “The Vatican does not consider Israel to be a Jewish state?”

      Never an issue. But unlike John Hagee, Pat Roberston, the late Jerry Falwell and most christian zionists, The Vatican does not consider modernday Israel to be “Israel II, The Sequel” and synonymous with Israel of the old Testament. Do you also believe in the rapture and the unblemished calf?

      “…You just can’t bring yourself to say that the Muslim nations should renounce their call for the destruction of Israel.”

      No pleasing you chaps. Somehow the commas are always in the wrong place to suit.

      “What an absurd statement. If you want to see ethnic cleansing of Christians, take a look at the various Muslim nations, as well as your Palestinian friends.”

      Is it possible that you are the only one in the world unaware of the ongoing removal of palestinians from East jerusalem? I know you can scarcely fathom such a possiblity but ask any Israeli(if you know any) if their government officials lie or can be wrong. Sit down before you hear the answer as you will surely be shocked.

      “Explain to me how your position on Israel differs from that of Hamas.”

      I don’t know much about Hamas except that they grow enormous fields of poppies (for western consumption) in the Bekka valley. My dh requested that I not ask any more questions after seeing that…actually he kicked me under the table but I thought the first sounded better. Do they also want an international Holy Land with equality and equal access to the law for everyone regardless of religion or race? Do you have a link?

      Previously you implied that no moslem countries have christian representation in government. I forgot to tell you that both Syria and Jordan do. Wiki says that the Knesset has druse members, but no christians that I saw. I forgot why you thought this was important. Oh yes, horrible moslems.

      “And how exactly will this better future arrive?”

      If I knew Brian I would be richer than Soros and someone else would be typing this reply. As the ape said (in answer to Charlton Heston’s question, “May I hope to be released?”) “You may hope anytime you wish”. That’s all I can say.

    • Brian English

      “The Vatican does not consider modernday Israel to be “Israel II, The Sequel” and synonymous with Israel of the old Testament.”

      And neither do I, but the land that Israel is located on was the traditional homeland of the Jewish people. That is a historical fact that has nothing to do with whether you believe in God.

      “Is it possible that you are the only one in the world unaware of the ongoing removal of palestinians from East jerusalem?”

      In five years there will be far more Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza than there will be Christians in any of the Muslim countries in that area.

      And you still don’t want to touch the issue of ethnic cleansing of Christians in Muslim countries. When is the last time an Israeli stabbed a Catholic Bishop to death? How about gunning down the parishioners outside a Coptic church?

      “Previously you implied that no moslem countries have christian representation in government. I forgot to tell you that both Syria and Jordan do. Wiki says that the Knesset has druse members, but no christians that I saw. I forgot why you thought this was important. Oh yes, horrible moslems.”

      Actually, what I directly stated was that there were Arabs in the Knesset but no Jewish elected officials in the surrounding Muslim countries. Did you find any of those Jewish officials? Don’t waste too much of your time looking.

    • Pammie

      “In five years there will be far more Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza than there will be Christians in any of the Muslim countries in that area.”

      Moslems aren’t prone to birth prevention, so I hear. I read the same forecast for Europe by the year 2050. Won’t be around to see that, I’m happy to say. If you been to London lately, you would think in some areas that 2050 has already arrived.

    • Tom

      I’ve read this comment thread over the past two days, along with the thread associated with Irene Lagan’s article on the “peace” flotilla with shock and not a little disgust.

      I find it hard to believe that there can be so much cognitive dissonance in the minds of those commenting. Do you really not see the news I see, or are you just not processing it in the same way?

      For roughly two thousand years Western Civilization and Christianity have used the Jews as our whipping boy. Before the pedants mount their high horses, yes, this is not true for all places and all times but in general that’s the way the trend has run.

      After the most heinous period in our collective history, when European Jewry was almost wiped off the planet, we decided, collectively, to give the Jews a homeland. Put aside for a moment the arrogance of giving the Jews land which had been occupied by Jews and their forebears since the dawn of recorded history.

      Contrary to popular belief the Jews didn’t all show up in the Middle East in 1948, only the ones we didn’t let Hitler finish off, and some of those decided to stay, which was a mistake as the Communists generally purged the ones they found in Poland and Eastern Europe.

      Does Israel have a right to exist? Yes, I believe it does and I believe that we are morally compelled to ensure its existence. Not because of evangelical Christian prophecies but because we failed, miserably, to stop the genocide of the holocaust.

      Why should the U.S. support Israel? I’m not sure that the current administration does other than in the most perfunctory manner. To answer the question though, how about because it’s a democracy which makes it a pretty rare beast the the Middle East.

      Is Israel ever wrong? Yes, every country governed by fallible humans will be wrong occasionally. I think the difference is that Israeli atrocities, when committed, are an aberration and not planned. Also they tend to be investigated and the guilty punished. For the pedants, I’m sure there are exceptions to this, see that bit about fallibility.

      I’ll finish this overly long comment with a quote from Golda Meir, “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”

    • Brian English

      “Why should the U.S. support Israel? I’m not sure that the current administration does other than in the most perfunctory manner. To answer the question though, how about because it’s a democracy which makes it a pretty rare beast the the Middle East.”

      More importantly, we have many of the same enemies.

    • Peter

      I find it hard to believe that there can be so much cognitive dissonance in the minds of those commenting. Do you really not see the news I see, or are you just not processing it in the same way?

      Probably both.

      For roughly two thousand years Western Civilization and Christianity have used the Jews as our whipping boy. Before the pedants mount their high horses, yes, this is not true for all places and all times but in general that’s the way the trend has run.

      Yes, Jews have been treated badly since the beginning.

      After the most heinous period in our collective history, when European Jewry was almost wiped off the planet, we decided, collectively, to give the Jews a homeland. Put aside for a moment the arrogance of giving the Jews land which had been occupied by Jews and their forebears since the dawn of recorded history.

      Contrary to popular belief the Jews didn’t all show up in the Middle East in 1948, only the ones we didn’t let Hitler finish off, and some of those decided to stay, which was a mistake as the Communists generally purged the ones they found in Poland and Eastern Europe.

      The holocaust was evil and beyond deplorable. We never saw fit, however, to designate a homeland to thousands of other people in modern times left homeless and desperate because of genocide. Jews lived in the Holy Land for many years before the rise of Zionism, yes, but so did Arabs and Palestinians. The land considered to belong historically to the Jews is disputed among scholars and historians, and is not represented by the borders designated by the modern state of Israel.

      Does Israel have a right to exist? Yes, I believe it does and I believe that we are morally compelled to ensure its existence. Not because of evangelical Christian prophecies but because we failed, miserably, to stop the genocide of the holocaust.

      Israel, as a state, had no “right” to exist. And we are not morally compelled to ensure its existence because of what Hitler did. That’s ridiculous. However, the state of Israel exists now and there is no going back, only forward.

      Why should the U.S. support Israel? I’m not sure that the current administration does other than in the most perfunctory manner. To answer the question though, how about because it’s a democracy which makes it a pretty rare beast the the Middle East.

      Tom, a little research would show you that the US gives billions of dollars to Israel.In 2008, the US gave 2.4 billion in aid to Israel — the most of any country — most of which goes to arms, much of which is American made. In 2009, the US pledged to give Israel 30 billion over the span of 10 years.

      Is Israel ever wrong? Yes, every country governed by fallible humans will be wrong occasionally. I think the difference is that Israeli atrocities, when committed, are an aberration and not planned. Also they tend to be investigated and the guilty punished. For the pedants, I’m sure there are exceptions to this, see that bit about fallibility.

      Tom, you seem to be under the delusion that Israel is mostly innocent with a few unintended mistakes here and there. Their atrocities are not unplanned nor an aberration. There is a very long list of very intentional actions the state of Israel has taken… they have not stuck to borders, they have stolen/conviscated land and water resources, they’ve destroyed centuries old vineyards – the livelihood of many local people, homes and property for land grabs, they have allowed settlers to build enormous complexes/villages in Palestinian areas, they have made life hell for many of the Christians and Muslims there — just ask some of the Catholic nuns and groups that are still trying to operate there. There is more here than simply “Israel trying to protect itself.” That is the line they always use, and we’re afraid to look beyond it out of guilt and sadness for the holocaust, but Israel should not be allowed to get away with behavior that is illegal and immoral, just as any other state should not. And we should not be FUNDING this behavior at the very least.

      I’ll finish this overly long comment with a quote from Golda Meir, “We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.”

      And I say to Golda Meir: You have brought on some of that hatred and need to take responsibility for it if you are going to be a morally upright nation that survives.