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  • God and the Sexes

    by Evelyn Birge Vitz

    gender1

    For Christianity, gender is both important and irrelevant. God creates, Christ redeems, and the Holy Spirit sanctifies men and women alike, along with Jews and Greeks, rich and poor, black and white. But, apart from salvation, gender possesses a special importance in Christianity that cannot be viewed as either accidental or superficial.

    Both views flow from the fact that God is understood in the Judeo-Christian tradition as being fundamentally, if mysteriously and non-genitally-male. God is “He.” True, God is also seen in some sense as transcending gender or at least as containing both male and female principles. Otherwise, he could not create both man and woman “in his image.”

    But the fact remains that the Lord, the unique “I AM WHO AM,” is a Father God, not an androgynous divine entity. Indeed, the entire Trinitarian Godhead is male: Christ is the Son, physically, genitally, as well as ontologically. And the Holy Spirit, though in some respects linked to the Old Testament theme of “Wisdom,” has been, since the dawn of Christianity, understood in male terms. The Holy Ghost is not an “it,” or a “she,” but a third “he,” united to the Father and the Son in the intensely loving but non-erotic union of the Trinity.

    Human gender is unimportant to the Christian tradition in the sense that all human souls are “feminine” animae in relation to God, the husband and the lover of each soul. In the larger sense, this view derives from the understanding of Israel as not merely God’s chosen people but as his wife. The Old Testament expresses this eloquently. The Song of Songs evokes the deep love, indeed the intense, almost embarrassingly erotic desire of the lover and the beloved, allegorically or symbolically understood to represent God and his people. The prophets, Isaiah in particular, speak sometimes poetically and idealistically of Israel as God’s beloved bride-Jerusalem is “wedded” to the Lord.

    The Christian tradition maintained this powerfully gendered concept of the relationship between God and his people as a whole, and between God and the individual persons who constitute his people. At the mystical level, the Church is the Bride of Christ, living only in relation to him, obedient to him: Christ is the head and husband of the Church. Thus, the Fathers of the Church presented the Church as born from the wounded side of Christ, as Eve had been created from Adam’s side: from his rib.

    The same relationship is borne out at the individual level. Each of us is called to be responsive to divine love: to the love of the Father, to the inspiring love of the Spirit, and to the love of Christ the Bridegroom of the soul, for all are “brides” of Christ.

    If all are female in respect to God, what then is the fundamental importance of gender, of sexual identity, to the Christian tradition-to Christian experience?

    We return to the Fatherhood of God, and to the fact that he did not create human beings as androgynous aggregates. Nor did he make five sexes, as some at the United Nations are arguing today. Now, how does that list go? Maybe it is: hetero male, homo male, middlesex, homo female, hetero female? Or maybe it is hetero-, homo-, bi-, trans-… but I am missing one. And where is bestiality? At any rate, this list of sexes is clearly not to be understood as sacrosanct. The point is simply that, in our secular and neopagan world, there are lots of sexes and lots of sex. What you start out with, or as, doesn’t much matter.

    But in the traditional Christian view, as taught in Genesis, God created them male and female, that is, either male or female, one or the other. God found that division into two sexes to be “good,” a reality not to be improved upon. Thus, our individual gender, our sexual identity, constitutes a fundamental and God-given part of our creatural identity. Indeed, we will retain our sex even at the Resurrection, when our souls will be reunited with our glorified bodies. Our sex is not something we are free to choose for ourselves.
    Nor is our sexual identity something that we can “construct,” or that society constructs for, or against, us. This is not to deny that different societies organize and deploy sexual identity and sexual roles differently; in this limited sense, gender can be partly a “construct.” But our sexual identity is a gift to us from God, no less than our very life, our soul, and our various physical and mental traits.

    The fact that not everyone feels comfortable with the sexual identity assigned by God is neither here nor there. Many of us are not especially pleased with the way God made us. If we were in charge, we would make ourselves more gifted athletically or academically or musically, more charming, taller and thinner, and so on. Moreover, sex and gender are at least as fallen as anything else about human beings. Most of us have a hard time living with a wide range of sinful tendencies and have to struggle against the inclination toward sexual perversions, or alcoholism, or depression, or procrastination and laziness, or violent rages. Sexual nature is by no means a special case.

    Looking at the New Testament, we may as well begin with the obvious fact that Jesus Christ chose twelve men as his Apostles; these were his original followers and his commissioned emissaries to the entire creation. Presumably, he did not choose them because men are better than women. One of the Twelve was his betrayer, a fact which Jesus knew well in advance. Moreover, no human can ever be as perfectly good as the Blessed Virgin. Mary is honored as the Queen of Heaven, Queen of Angels, Queen of Saints, etc. She is the Queen over and not the Queen among the Apostles. “Goodness,” then, is not the issue.

    Can it be that Jesus couldn’t choose women because of the low status of women at his time? This argument has always struck me as ridiculous. Or rather, and quite simply, only those who do not believe that Jesus is God can hold such a view. As the punchline to an old joke goes, “A 500-pound gorilla can sleep anywhere he pleases.” Well, God made those gorillas. God makes the rules. Are we really to believe that Jesus/God did not — could not — do something he wanted to do — pick women to be Apostles — because he was worried about what people would think?

    If he did all these things, it must be because that was precisely what he, as the Son of God — as God himself — intended to do. No other view is even seriously worth consideration. Since women as priestesses were common in other religions of the time, it can hardly have failed to dawn on God that this was a possibility.

    It has been charged that, at some point, Christianity got onto the wrong foot about the way in which power is assigned differentially to the sexes. But, in fact, this is the foot on which Christ started his religion. Certain fundamental roles of active leadership, of power in this world, were assigned to men, and not to women.

    Paul follows Jesus’s lead in his letter to the Ephesians when he says that wives should obey their husbands and that men should love their wives as Christ loves the Church. All husbands, like the Apostles, represent and embody Christ in the world. And women carry on, and live out, in a special way, the life of the Church. Husbands are to be to their wives as Christ is to his Church. Not merely gender alone but gender authority is therefore divinely instituted.

    Should we women be offended? Am I angry that I can’t be pope, and more to the point, that I am not even theoretically papabile? Or, that I cannot be a bishop, and rule over a diocese? That I cannot celebrate the Mass? And, what’s more, that my husband, Paul C. Vitz, was not told to obey me?

    But before distributing authority as he saw fit, God had first made men and women. It seems safe to assume that, since he foresaw how he was going to assign power relations on earth, he designed his creatures to find satisfaction in this arrangement. This is not to ignore the effects of the fall, which corrupted human desires and behaviors. But in any event, God made the sexes different, with different gifts, desires, needs. Though we all have our “end” in God, what is natural to one sex is not necessarily natural to the other.

    Though Jesus choose men as his disciples, he was extraordinarily good to women. He obviously loved women, as he loved men. He treated the women he met with great tenderness, justice, and mercy. And how those women, those non-Apostles, loved him! One need only think of the “sinful woman” washing his feet with her tears and wiping them with her hair, whose lavish gratitude he defended. Of his kind, tactful, handling of Martha or the woman with the hemorrhage. Of the Samaritan woman at the well, to whom he told the truth about her life, and to whom he promised eternal water. Jesus gave to women the honor of standing at the foot of the Cross, when almost all the men, his chosen Apostles, had denied him and fled. He also gave to these women the glory and the joy of being the first to see him risen from the grave. If you will allow me a bit of Christian irony and paradox, he also gave these same women the honor of his Apostles’ disbelief; in this way, he first shared his cross with them after he had risen.

    And what of Mary? God honored women by calling his Mother to a perfection that no one else — and in particular, no man — can achieve. Mary, imitated for centuries by both sexes, has been the very definition, not of worldly power, but of compassionate motherhood, of devoted service, of willing obedience. We are told that, from the depths of her loving heart, she “pleads for sinners.” I sometimes think that that is women’s most important function on this planet: like Mary, like the mother who reminded Jesus that even the dogs get to eat the crumbs that fall under the table, like the woman with the unjust judge, like Martha and Mary who wanted their brother Lazarus back, we women are here to love and to plead.

    What are the advantages of accepting such a Christian, specifically Catholic, view of gender and its importance? It is worth emphasizing the advantages of such a vision of gender as compared with Protestant views. The original Protestant reformers eliminated, along with many other things, the religious dignity of the female and the feminine: they got rid of the Church, the Bride of Christ. They demoted the Blessed Virgin to an only temporarily-virgin mother of Jesus — a nice lady, to be sure, but nothing extraordinary; no special crown in heaven for her! When they disbanded the Catholic Communion of Saints (all the redeemed being equally both wretches and holy), they sent into exile, along with the male cohort, such great female figures — friends of men and women alike — as Agatha, Agnes, Barbara, several Catherines, Cecilia, Christine, Dorothy, Elizabeth, and on through the saintly alphabet. In the insistence that all should marry, they eliminated the special vocation of consecrated virginity, which had given a special dignity and spiritual authority to nuns and other religious, as brides of Christ. They also attacked the indissolubility of marriage, which has — as even many feminists now recognize — protected women far more than men. Many holy nuns and abbesses have exercised remarkable power in the Church — even in the world — with a spiritual influence extending far beyond the confines of their convent. One thinks of Hildegard of Bingen, Catherine of Siena, and Teresa of Avila-of their eloquent but forthright letters to popes, kings and emperors; their wide and effective travels; and their unflagging zeal for renewal in the Church.

    It is important to stress the fact that no other religion in the world, no branch of Protestantism, nor any secular ideology, has such a tradition. In Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy alone do women and feminine principles play so vital and positive a role. In traditional Christianity alone are women praised and prayed to every day by millions of the faithful.

    By the time the Reformation was over, the female — and indeed all honor paid specifically to women and femininity — had been expunged from Protestant Christianity. The only important “female” left was the Whore of Babylon. Only males and masculinity were given important roles and glorified. The original result was that men were not only the leaders of churches, they were everything. It is not, of course, that salvation was closed to women, but women had nothing but bit parts and walk-on roles in traditional Protestant society and church.

    But there has been a recent development to all this. Since Protestantism had no valued roles to assign to the feminine, as modern secular culture has moved increasingly toward demands for “justice” for women — and away from the roles of wifehood and motherhood — the only apparent solution was to embrace the principle of androgyny. In fact, the attempt has been made to abandon gender identity as having any theological significance at all. Thus, even the traditional Christian sense that we are all feminine souls in the presence of a Divine Husband almost completely disappeared from Protestantism. Today, mainstream Protestant women preach and are ordained to the ministry; they hold positions of church leadership. Today only rarely do Protestant women promise to obey their husbands in their marriage vows. Men and women are indeed understood to be, ontologically, alike. And it is hard to believe that the Fatherhood of God, or the Sonship of Christ, or the “-us” endings to Sanctus Spiritus will long survive the modern attack on gender in the Protestant denominations. The Episcopal Cathedral of St. John the Divine in New York City has a large crucifix with “Christa” on it over the altar. The Holy Spirit is increasingly replaced by the female “Sapientia.”

    In his On the Development of Christian Doctrine John Henry Newman explained carefully how one can distinguish between development, on the one hand, and corruption, on the other. One of the primary earmarks of genuine development is that it be the continuation and fulfillment of something that existed earlier in Christian tradition. The new “doctrines” on the role of women, and on the concepts of gender and sexuality in general, cannot be seen as the development of an earlier Christian principle. They are novel, and they have their roots in modern secular culture. This is not, then, a genuine “development of Christian doctrine,” but the importing, into Christianity, of fundamentally alien ways of thinking.

    There are three ways of thinking about gender. The first, androgyny, ends up in nihilism and perversion, by making sex arbitrary and trivial. The second, crude male power over women, is, as we all so clearly see, the result of original sin. The third is what Christianity has always taught: the complementarity of the sexes, in a structure of servant leadership by males. This is not only the tradition of the Church, but it corresponds to our nature. What more can we ask?

     

    This article originally appeared in the September 1995 issue of Crisis Magazine.

    The views expressed by the authors and editorial staff are not necessarily the views of
    Sophia Institute, Holy Spirit College, or the Thomas More College of Liberal Arts.

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    • Don L

      This is one of the most well-considered educational pieces about the subject in present day Catholic literature. It would do well to teach it as part of all catechesis, but most particularly because of the present day confusion among “adults” it should be a pamphlet handout at the door of the Church.

    • Kamilla

      Mrs. Vitz,

      I appreciated your references to Teleology and Ontology. One of my former mentors (while I was studying for an MA in philosophy at an Evangelical seminary) made her “mark” in religious feminism by developing an argument for full inclusion of women in ordained ministry based on our shared ontology.

      But when you write, “Though we all have our “end” in God, what is natural to one sex is not necessarily natural to the other.”, I wonder if one of the ways to answer such an argument is to develop an argument based on teleological distinctions. It’s something I’ve pondered off and on for a while now, but haven’t come up with an answer.

      It’s a great article that leaves me with many questions, many avenues down which to pursue study . . .

      Kamilla

    • Tony Esolen

      I agree entirely with you, Kamilla. The thing that men and women need to ask themselves is, “What do I lack, that I need from the opposite sex?” And then, “How am I myself made to assist the opposite sex?” That is because the worth of manhood is in its gift to women, and the worth of womanhood is in its gift to men. Once men and women understand this, machismo and feminisma look pretty paltry, and disordered.

    • Bender

      One of my former mentors (while I was studying for an MA in philosophy at an Evangelical seminary) made her “mark” in religious feminism by developing an argument for full inclusion of women in ordained ministry based on our shared ontology

      Kamilla — Since your mentor was at an Evangelical seminary, I would presume that she is Evangelical, such that her argument must necessarily been seen from a purely Evangelical perspective. As such, I think we need to take into account here the differences between Protestant/Evanglical “ordained ministry,” and Catholic ordained ministry.

      Given that Evangelical ministry is not sacramental, as Catholics use the term, that is, an Evangelical minister has not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders, I don’t know that there is necessarily a problem with “full inclusion of women” in such ministry.

      Even in Catholic theology, a woman can be a theologian, catechist, teacher, etc., just as well as any man can be. To be sure, again in Catholicism, a woman is equally part of the universal “priesthood” of the faithful, given a mission to go out to spread the Good News to the world. Or, to use the Evangelical meaning of the terms, to be a “minister” or “preacher.”

      Of course, even the non-sacramental minister of Evangelical Protestantism necessarily is influenced by his or her own nature. That is, a male minister often will have a distinctly male approach and take on things, and a female minister will have a distinctly female perspective on things. But that is true in any endeavor.

    • Bender

      I meant to say that, in considering the mentor’s argument, from the Catholic perspective, there is no “ordained” ministry in Evangelical Protestantism. Rather, they are merely “ministers” or preachers, etc., but since they do not have sacraments, they do not have ordination.

    • Kamilla

      Bender,

      The problem comes because Protestantism, although it doesn’t accept sacramentalism, it does still hold to an order of the sexes as in I Timothy where Paul teaches women are not to have authority over men or teach them in the assembly (as Protestants have historically used these verses), and that minister represents The Bridegroom. So, although the pastor and the priest don’t stand in the same place, the symbolism of the male still holds (even if the argument for that symbolism is weaker).

      The argument the religious feminists make is that the symbolism is irrelevant because we are ontologically “equal” and therefore free to serve in whatever capacity we are gifted and “called” to. I think the answer to the Protestant problem on this is to distinguish ontology from teleology, but I’ve not yet figured out how to do that legitimately.

      Kamilla

    • Bender

      it does still hold to an order of the sexes as in I Timothy where Paul teaches women are not to have authority over men or teach them in the assembly (as Protestants have historically used these verses)

      Rather than distinguishing ontology from teleology, it seems to me that the real answer is that, if we are to read scripture in the context of the whole, then this Protestant reading of Paul (here and in general) is misconstrued and erroneous.

    • Chrissy G

      The most striking feature of this article, to me, is that it makes male and female both sound beautiful. I think that a true understanding that all souls are feminine relative to God eases the defensiveness of each sex and makes the conversation more peaceful.

    • Kamilla

      Bender,

      Enlighten me on how the Protestant reading of Paul at this point is wrong — because that’s what the religious feminists argue and I *know* they are wrong in their fruit if not in their origin.

      A book or article reference would be fine, rather than hijacking the thread to discuss this one point.

      Kamilla

    • buckyinky

      I appreciate the thought and work the author has put into this writing. She does not take the safe route, that route which would shield her from the vicious criticisms of today’s egalitarians, but clearly delineates many points which are difficult, if not impossible, for many of our contemporaries to swallow. Most notable among these points is the acknowledgement, and even embrace, of the fact that our sexual identities are intrinsic to our beings, even though we had nothing to do with the fact that we were created with the sexual characteristics that we have, and even though such sexual characteristics often stand in the way of the modern obsession with the autonomous will.

      Nevertheless, the article left me wanting for more explanation on certain themes, and I see this lack as striking more at the foundation than mere peripherals, of what is being discussed here. Clearly the author assumes that questions reflecting a doubt about the proper dignity accorded to women’s roles in society and in the Church are appropriate and warranted. When she asks “Should we women be offended…[that certain Church offices are not open for women to fill]?” she goes on to legitimize the assumptions that are made in such a question, namely, that dignity and worth are properly accorded more to people who hold positions of calculable and visible power. When such questions are posed in ecclesiological terms, as they often are in our day, and as they are in this article, what usually follows is a list of ways in which the Scriptures illustrate that women are in many ways superior to men, that, even though men held all of the important offices in early Church life, women were superior to men in the things that “really mattered,” like remaining faithful to Jesus through His crucifixion, anointing Jesus’ feet in spite of scorn, being the first ones privy to the Resurrection of the Lord, etc.

      The problem with this argument is, as I have alluded, the assumption made about dignity being tied into positions of power that one holds is faulty, but never properly addressed as to its faults. Consequently, the author gives the confusing argument that at once suggests the unfairness to women’s human dignity for not being able to hold high positions of authority, but then goes on to say that women held their own anyways, even without these positions of authority. What we are left with is a conclusion that, though men seem to be favored by God because they are powerful, women are in the end favored because they are faithful. What is never addressed is the reason why we should assume that being given a position of power is a sign of favor by God, and why do women think this in the first place?

      I do not understand either, what appears to be an omission in the conclusion of the article, regarding the “three ways of thinking about gender.” The three ways, which the author seems to present as exhaustive (if she doesn’t mean it to be exhaustive, it is very easy to be misled into think she does mean it so), are androgyny, crude male domination, and complementarity. Two of the models, androgyny and crude male domination, leave women in a helpless state by virtue of the society’s disposition toward women. Androgyny leaves women helpless by not recognizing women’s distinctiveness; crude male domination leaves women helpless by overpowering her. Are we to believe that the only model which is acceptable is also the only one in which women are given the full freedom of their wills as women? Are we supposed to conclude that a society that fosters women so that they are free to be women, will necessarily mean that women will always use that freedom for good, with a proper disposition toward the opposite sex? But to conclude this is to deny, or at least ignore, women as being affected by concupiscence of the will and other human faculties, just as men are. This is dangerous for humanity, and especially for women, as it leaves out important truths about woman’s nature as affected by the Fall.

    • Chrissy G

      I’m curious about your question regarding the three ways of thinking about gender. My guess is that we can certainly imagine other ways of thinking (for example, female domination of males), but that these three are the three common enough to warrant discussion. Assuming that, I’m not clear on your further points.

      “Are we to believe that the only model which is acceptable is also the only one in which women are given the full freedom of their wills as women?” If I understand you correctly, then I would wholeheartedly answer in the positive. Any accurate understanding of gender will have as its basis the Catholic view of the human person- each person, male or female, is endowed with free will. In fact, that is presumably the main argument against crude male dominance- it removes the free will agency of women. And I think the qualifier, “free will as women,” accurately addresses the flaw of androgyny. Thus, of the three main views of gender, only complementarity incorporates both sexual difference and free will.

      “Are we supposed to conclude that a society that fosters women so that they are free to be women, will necessarily mean that women will always use that freedom for good, with a proper disposition toward the opposite sex?” That is not the impression I got from the article. If I were to summarize the article’s position, I would put it this way: “Only a society that fosters women so that they are free to be women is in keeping with the Creator’s design for sexual difference.” The ideas that women are immune to original sin, or that a society that embraces sexual complementarity is Utopian and devoid of evil, are both theologically untenable and I doubt any serious Catholic author would espouse them. Where in the article did you see evidence of those or similar conclusions? Perhaps there are portions that we interpreted in different ways.

    • buckyinky

      Chrissy,

      Thanks for your questions. I disagree that the three ways of thinking about gender presented in the article are the only ones that are common enough to warrant discussion, and my reasons for including at least another way of thinking relate to the other questions you bring up, as well as my response to them. To be clear, I believe that women should always be able to exercise their faculty of free will as women, but that such ability does not guarantee that women will exercise it in a properly-ordered way. The author does not seem to allow for this in limiting the discussion to merely three ways of thinking about gender, two of which are unacceptable and also restrictive of women’s free will. Conversely, she does recognize that there are certain societies that allow for men to exercise their faculty of free will as men, but also recognizes that men exercise this free will in a disordered way, i.e., crude domination of women. I submit that just as common as crude male domination of women, are instances where women are free to exercise their wills as women, but choose to do so in a disordered way. It is manifested in those ways in which women are given gifts particular to their sex, such as heightened perceptions in relationships, or skill in dealing with a conflict indirectly, and shows itself as purely self-interested and uncharitable manipulation of other human beings. Such actions entail a full use of a woman’s faculty of free will, and though they are perhaps not as perceptible in a society as crude male domination, that does not mean they are any less common, or less destructive for that matter.

      Your last question, regarding where in the article I perceived that she puts forth the idea that women are immune to original sin, I answered somewhat above, but perhaps bears more clarification. I don’t imagine that the author would make the assertion outright that women are immune from original sin, but she fails to recognize the gravity of women’s situation, while she does seem to recognize the gravity of men’s inasmuch as she can imagine a society disorderd by the exercise of man’s free will, but seems to have difficulty imagining a society disordered by the exercise of women’s free will.

    • buckyinky

      I just reread what I wrote above: “Are we to believe that the only model which is acceptable is also the only one in which women are given the full freedom of their wills as women?” – and I see that it was a confusing statement at best. What I meant to say is “Are we to believe that there are no unacceptable models which also give full freedom of the will to women (similar to the model of crude male domination, which is unacceptable, but allows male freedom of the will).” Sorry for the confusion. I hope that makes my thoughts clearer.

    • Zoe

      Indeed, the entire Trinitarian Godhead is male: Christ is the Son, physically, genitally, as well as ontologically. And the Holy Spirit, though in some respects linked to the Old Testament theme of “Wisdom,” has been, since the dawn of Christianity, understood in male terms. The Holy Ghost is not an “it,” or a “she,” but a third “he,” united to the Father and the Son in the intensely loving but non-erotic union of the Trinity.

      I have always considered it a problem that we can not locate femininity in the Godhead. If it is true that male and female are created in God’s image, it makes no sense to me to refer to the entire Godhead in exclusive male terms and symbols.

      I’m not proposing a “mother” God in place of Father, or any kind of Goddess — Jesus himself tells us to call God “Father.” But I’ve long wondered if we must look to the Holy Spirit for the icon of femininity. The Holy Spirit is the least understood Person of the Trinity and the least explored theologically. However, saints and mystics have written about the femininity of the Holy Spirit, such as Bernard de Clairveaux and Hildegard de Bingen. And Wisdom in the Old Testament is described with a lot of feminine imagery and also connected to the “breath” of God and the spirit of God in places.

      Bernard also wrote of the annunciation from a different perspective. He pondered the idea of whether the Holy Spirit, rather than acting upon Mary, may have empowered Mary. (Actually, “empower” is not the word he used, but now I can’t remember the way he phrased it.) It’s a very interesting theory. Unfortunately, the Holy Spirit remains an underdeveloped area in theology and the feminine is relegated to the human realm alone. Mary is Queen, yes, but she is also a human being and a human person. She, too was made in God’s image so there must be somewhere in the triune God where women can find their femininity represented just as men do their masculinity. This need not destroy the beauty of the Bride and Bridegroom imagery between God and man, but it can add another dimension that speaks to the way we relate to the Trinity.

    • Kamilla

      Zoe,

      The same sorts of things puzzled me — being female and being made in the image of a Male/masculine God — when I was a religious feminist. I find such things much less problematic now that I’ve left feminism behind.

      I sometimes wonder if we are asking the question the wrong way around. I think the answer lies not so much in seeking femininity/femaleness in the Godhead as it does in looking at God and discovering what being made in His image means. IOW – how does being created in two sexes relate to being created in the divine image.

      It’s something I need to study, but haven’t yet felt the urging strongly enough to seek out some good sources.

      Kamilla

    • Kim

      What about the 46 known intersex “gay” syndromes that almost everyone has to some slight or significant degree? These common conditions prove gender role stereotyping to be unchristian and medically ignorant. Also, severe intersex conditions are most prevalent among large Catholic families because of NFP defective fertilizations and younger children picking up older siblings’ sex chromosomes in the uterus (microchimerism). Why does everything have to be either black or white? Such rigidity is cultish.

    • buckyinky

      Kim,

      So a few people don’t have significantly definable sexual characteristics, therefore it is uncharitable to acknowledge that most do?

    • Kamilla

      I would have expected the progressives to have come up with enough “syndromes” to provide clear proof that gender exists on a continuum, I’m a bit surprised they’ve only come up with 46 to this point.

      Leaving aside the “gay” insetion, Kim, even supposing you are correct about the “46 known intersex [] syndromes that almost everyone has to some slight or significant degree”, that proves nothing other than Scripture is correct when we are told all creation is groaning. It was not so in the beginning when God created Adam and Eve – sex is binary, period. Everything else is mutation due to sin (whether specific or in the general case).

      I hardly think it does your cause any good to try to normalize what is, by definition, a defect. Say pedophiles are correct when they say they are born that way and cannot help it — do we then normalize pedophilia? Wouldn’t that exist somewhere on your sexual continuum? And Polyamory? Need I continue?

      I wonder if your response isn’t intentional silliness. Can you really be that deceived?

    • Kamilla

      Kim,

      If you’ve got any documenation of, “younger children picking up older siblings’ sex chromosomes in the uterus ” – say, from Lancet or NEJM, etc. I’d like to see it.

      Seriously, you’re breaking new medical ground here.

      Kamilla

    • Kim

      Kamilla, just google the term microchimerism and fetal chimerism. It is now known that fetal DNA circulates throughout mothers, hence women’s dramatic propensity for autoimmune diseases like scleraderma caused by male fetus XY debris that collects in sclerotic tissue. No one is perfectly male or female. Just because you look normal and female doesn’t mean microscopically that you are — DNA sampling from your right hand might not match your left hand. One sample might match an older born or miscarried sibling of the same or OPPOSITE sex. The severity of Klinefelter Syndrome “XXY males” depends on the amount of mosaic XXXY, XXY and XY cells. The old Sally Jesse Raphael show featured intersex people, including one effeminate Klinefelter Syndrome Catholic monk who was naturally growing breasts as “he” aged. Convents and rectories are full of such closet gender variation people. Just as we humans display enormous variation in skin color, height, abilities, etc., we also vary greatly in gender expression and fertility. If race discrimination is wrong, so is sex and intersex discrimination. The Vatican’s criminally willful ignorance and intolerance for born intersex people (and countless other subjects) proves it doesn’t represent God on any moral subject.

    • Kim

      Kamilla, it’s too bad that your condescension and ignorance are intentional and that YOU DEFEND a cult that actually practices and criminally covers up pedophilia and polygamy (multiple annulments for playboys Newt Gingrich, Randall Terry and Deal Hudson). Why don’t you medically prove your own alleged gender “purity” before heaving boulders at intersex people?? — you could be an Androgen Insensitive Syndrome XY MALE with a naturally super female APPEARANCE. Your flat earth claims about biology and human origins are so last millenium.

    • Kim

      P.S. Most pedophilia is caused by looksist patriarchal religious contempt for the slightest signs of aging, fat, diseases, and childbirth disfigurements in women — hence the body inspections of accused witches and current high demand for Catholic annulments. Most children have flawless skin, no cellulite or reproductive diseases, so they naturally look like angels and attract misogynist men. Feminism addresses this criminal looksism, but sadly, masochistic Catholic women have condemned feminism, then wonder why the church blesses their abandonment for younger wives.

    • Kamilla

      Kim,

      I asked you for evidence, for a published example, of what you claimed was in utero microchimerism between siblings from different pregnancies and you respond by talking about Klinefelter syndrome, etc. and referring me to (snort) Sally Jessy Raphael and Google.

      Just to be clear – I have professional experience caring for patients with cruel diseases such as schleroderma, I do know about autoimmune diseases as well as the possibility of microchimerism occuring in both directions during pergnancy – feto-maternal and maternal-fetal. I also know about Klinefelter’s and a host of other genetic mutations, including Turner’s syndrome. I even know about some that are utterly unrelated to sex – but again, they are mutations, not the norm.

      What I cannot find, and apparently won’t be able to find without the help of such a stellar medical authority as Sally Jessy Raphael, is a single example of microchimerism occuring between siblings from different pregnancies. So, unless you can come up with a reference from a reputable journal such as Lancet or NEJM, I’ll leave you to your day-time talk-show science.

      Kamilla

    • Kim

      From Pediatric Rheumatology (http://www.ped-rheum.com/content/5/1/9):

      “Do maternal cells trigger or perpetuate autoimmune diseases in children?”
      Anne M Stevens
      Department of Pediatrics, University of Washington, Children’s Hospital and Regional Medical Center, 307 Westlake Ave N, Suite 300, Seattle, WA 98109, USA

      “…In addition to cells from the mother, microchimerism could be derived from an older sibling, from a twin, or from a blood transfusion. Cells from an older sibling could persist in the mother for years after birth, and then be transferred to the fetus in a subsequent pregnancy. Because fetal cells transfer into the mother in the first weeks of gestation, spontaneous abortion (recognized or not) may lead to chimerism in a woman, which then could be transferred to the next fetus. Evidence for older sibling microchimerism is inconclusive so far. Twin-twin transfusion, however, has been established and occurs in up to 8% of twin pairs and 21% of triplet pairs [71]. Cells from a twin may completely replace the hematopoietic system [72]. The vanishing twin phenomenon, which may occur without recognition by mother or obstetrician, allows for the possibility of twin chimerism even in singlet pregnancies….”

      71. van Dijk BA, Boomsma DI, de Man AJ: Blood group chimerism in human multiple births is not rare.
      AmJ Med Genet 1996 , 61:264-268.
      72. Sudik R, Jakubiczka S, Nawroth F, Gilberg E, Wieacker PF: Chimerism in a fertile woman with 46,XY karyotype and female phenotype. Hum Reprod 2001 , 16:56-58.

      I have no professional medical training but barely survived brutal Catholic theology-based medical abuse myself, so I am interested in science that refutes medical claims by the Vatican that are used to justify its human rights abuses of various groups, particularly women, children, the disabled and hermaphrodite gays. You can’t theologically force round pegs into square holes because your religion insists round pegs don’t exist in nature. I am pleading for religions to stop bullying governments into discriminating against these groups. This makes Christian sense to me. Thankfully, we now know that Tourette Syndrome isn’t caused by “devil possession”. I believe science will vindicate gays and other targets of the Vatican. I am impressed by your medical background.

    • Kim

      From NIH Public Access: Arthritis Rheum. Author manuscript; available in PMC 2009 June 9.
      Published in final edited form as:
      Arthritis Rheum. 2009 January; 60(1): 5

    • Kim

      “The Chimera Hypothesis: Homosexuality and Plural Pregnancy” by Welmer
      July 14th, 2008

      http://www.welmer.org/2008/07/14/the-chimera-hypothesis-homosexuality-and-plural-pregnancy/

    • Kamilla

      Kim,

      A bunch of assumptions there – theories, period. Something you presented as established fact explaining “severe intersex conditions” turns out to be one theory (among several) to explain microchimerism as a cause of autoimmune disorders.

      Two problems with this. Genuine intersex conditions are rare and no more likely to be present among large Catholic families than large Protestant families or large famiilies of other faiths. That seems to have been an anti-Cathlic slip on your part. The second problem is that intersex conditions and microchimerism are two unrelated conditions – neither one causes or leads to the other.

      So your claims are false. But let’s just pretend, for a moment, they were true. So what? The mere presence of a genetic anomaly, mutation or disease does not abrogate God’s moral law. It does not negate the law any more than the claim that pedophilia, incest, bestiality or polyamory are inborn and immutable conditions would change God’s moral law with respect to those sexual sins.

      Any argument that such conditions would abrogate the moral law can only do so by a self-focused argument from faulty anthropology. Sex, as created, is binary. Intersex, microchimerism and any other mutation from the created good are no more good, moral and normal things to be embraced and celebrated than are cancer, cystic fibrosis, down symdrome or spina bifida.

      Sex doesn’t get a pass, it isn’t a special category whose mutations are exempt from obeying God’s moral law. Arguments to the contrary are lies from the pit of hell.

    • Kamilla

      Kim,

      I’m sorry, I had a browser glitch and my response above posted before I was done.

      Thank you for your kind words. I have been blessed with some extraordinary experience.

      I appreciate your passion for justice and mercy though it saddens me that your passion is misguided. However the science eventually falls out with respect to homosexuality and any number of other conditions, God’s moral law remains immutable because it was written into the original, pre-fall genetic code of the universe (as it were). In the end, it is no mercy to plead for acceptance of behaviours which violate that moral law. Such a road can only lead to destruction.

      Kamilla

    • Linda

      Kamilla, I believe intersex conditions and gay orientations have multiple, mostly biological causes like racial appearance differences and only bring suffering because of other peoples’ scorn. Finding biological causes has only become possible within the last few decades, and religions are very slow to catch up. I’ve seen plenty of suffering among straight couples, and enviable joy among gay couples, so you can’t generalize on outcomes to justify your theology. Most intersex conditions go unnoticed and undiagnosed for years. Google Caster Semenya and CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) which turns XY infants into stunning actresses, super models and pageant winners. I’ll bet plenty of Catholic men are married to infertile CAIS beauties. If the Vatican practiced its own rules, it would now require extensive gender testing of all prospective and current couples, and would ban many of the world’s most gorgeous “women” from marriage to anyone. You could have one of these undiagnosed syndromes, and you wouldn’t want it arbitrarily shutting all romance out of your life. Life experiences and conditions don’t arrange themselves into your stark, precise black and white checkerboard of moral do’s and don’ts. If you read the last article and the comments, you will see many opinions, most of which have some merit. You believe the Old Testament and the Vatican channel God’s opinion, even though they both conflict with each other on polygamy, divorce, punishment for adultery, activities on the Sabbath, etc. You are probably relieved that the Vatican no longer considers wrinkles, blemishes and cellulite on women as proof of their witchcraft. Did you know the Vatican used to ban marriage between 5th and 6th cousins as “incest” to grab their property? This short-lived rule made marriage virtually impossible for the transportation-challenged serfs who were distantly related to everyone in the surrounding territories. Did you know the Vatican also used to ban sex on all Sundays, Fridays, holy days, Advent and Lent? It even claimed all birth defects were caused by sex on Sundays. It also banned marital sex after menopause, remarriage after widowhood, and still bans marriage for men with motor disabilities! I mentioned large Catholic families having higher rates of gay offspring because of Natural Family Planning failures increasing the odds of older defective eggs being fertilized by more than one sperm (polyspermy). In my uber Catholic family, two daughters and one miscarriage preceded two brothers of dubious orientation. Because of extensive Catholic-motivated family abuse directed at me by our mentally ill (childbirth incontinent) mother, I’m estranged from all relatives now, so I don’t know how my younger suspected gay brothers turned out. The chimerism and microchimerism explanations make a lot of sense regarding my brothers, especially the youngest since he displayed the hallmark trait of chimeras — different colored eyes that showed up even in black and white photos! I believe the universe and its creator are simply too complex to be adequately and accurately described by primitive religions and the more you learn of Catholic history and its human rights abuses, your checkerboard will become a kaleidoscope.

    • Kamilla

      “Here I only say that they suffer from the modern and morbid
      weaknesses of always sacrificing the normal to the abnormal.” – Chesterton

      Linda,

      It’s not the job of Christianity to “catch up” to science. It’s a
      common enough fallacy, but you cannot derive an “ought” from an “is”.
      In the present case, you cannot legitimately argue that God’s moral
      law must bow to legitimizing sexual intimacy between any two persons
      who are not husband (male) and wife(female) simply because hard cases
      like Caster Semenya’s exist. I have to wonder if you would still be
      making this same argument if we found a biological or genetic cause to
      explain serial killers? Pedophiles? Sadists? Consent you say?
      Tosh. What is consent but ignorant opposition to the great deity of
      modern science?

      Second, the same applies to “outcomes”. God doesn’t promise us joy in
      this life. In fact for some of us, it’s a blasted hard slog. But we
      take up our crosses daily. That is what the Christian life requires
      of us, whether our cross be an intersex condition or a simple
      prediliction for too many profiteroles.

      Third, there are a number of physical and physiological differences
      between CAIS sufferers and genetic females which, post-puberty, make
      the difference virtually impossible for a male husband not to notice
      it. But here again, you fall prey to the morbid trend Chesterton so
      aptly names.

      Lastly, if you’ve got a genuine contradiction between the Old
      Testament and Roman Catholic dogma, I’d like to see it. Please
      provide us with both the OT and CCC references. I doubt you can,
      since you obviously can’t tell the difference between a dogma (which
      is immutable) and a discipline (which is not).

      Oh and, by the way, I am not Catholic. So, if you’ve got a problem
      with what “the Vatican” teaches now or has in the past, I’m afraid
      you’ll have to take it up with someone else.

    • Kamilla

      The last sentence of the first paragraph should read:

      “What is non-consent but ignorant opposition to the great deity, modern science?”

    • Robert Hagedorn

      Anal sodomy? For a really big surprise, google The First Scandal Adam and Eve. Then click once or twice to get the surprise, which will be…too much work?

    • Linda Kim

      On some websites I use my middle name and on others I use my first name. I should have checked my computer’s automatic fill-in before posting here. I’m just looking for the scientific common ground that the left and right sides of gender issues are often unaware of because the research is so new and ignored by MSM. Kamilla, I did provide irrefutable examples of OT and NT conflicts, and you have no justification to bash me, the messenger, just because you have reading comprehension deficits, obsessive-compulsive problems and religious contempt for people born with gender variations. Unfortunately, your medical experience leaves you bigoted like Nazi doctors. I do oppose pedophilia, sadism, etc. and unfortunately YOU DON’T because of your damned conservative conservative orthodoxy that causes and worships the senseless misery of others.

    • Linda Kim

      I forgot to mention intersex gay conditions also being dramatically increased by the “anti-miscarriage” debacle of DES given to pregnant Americans for decades (I know victims) and the appalling “anti-gay” anti-rebellion Pentagon experiment in the Philippines decades ago that deliberately created 50,000 hermaphrodite babies by injecting women with estrogen just to feminize and “neutralize” their future “rebel” sons. How many more Nazi experiments were conducted by our government? — I spent the mid-90s attending public hearings on our secret government radiation experiments waged against pregnant women, ethnic minorities, orphans, soldiers, etc. Victims have a right to make lemon aid out of lemon lives.