Catholics Organize to Promote Gay Marriage

Those wondering why Francis Cardinal George suddenly announced his condemnation of New Ways Ministry on February 5 should take note of a meeting held a few days earlier in Washington, D.C. During the last weekend of January, a group of Catholics, lay and religious, met in Washington to launch “Catholics for Equality” (CFE).

New Ways Ministry, a homosexuality advocacy group, had long been considered controversial even before Cardinal George — president of the USCCB — publicly stated, “It has no approval or recognition from the Catholic Church, and they cannot speak on behalf of the Catholic faithful in the United States.”

One of the founders of Catholics for Equality, Father Tony Adams, regarded Cardinal George’s statement as “retaliation” for the creation of an organization dedicated to changing Church teaching on homosexuality and marriage.


Father Tony goes on to describe the founders of CFE as an “A List of Catholic thorns in the sides of American Bishops,” including two people associated with New Ways Ministries, Frank DeBernardo and Matthew Myers. Not all the names at the meeting were disclosed, for “political and practical reasons,” but among those mentioned were members of the Human Rights Campaign, People for the American Way, the Georgetown LGCTQ Resource Center, Dignity USA, and the newly formed Catholics for Marriage Equality groups in Massachusetts and Maine.

Another attendee, not mentioned by Father Tony, was Rev. Geoffrey Farrow, a priest from Fresno, California. Father Farrow made headlines in October 2008 when he told his congregation at the local Newman Center about his opposition to Proposition 8 and revealed his own homosexuality. He was promptly removed from his ministry by Bishop John T. Steinbock for making a public statement contradicting the teaching of the Catholic Church and, interestingly, “using the Internet as a means of continuing your conflict with the Church’s teaching.”

Father Farrow described the Church’s support for Proposition 8 as “bigotry,” but thought that even more “egregious” was the directive of Bishop Richard T. Malone in Maine that his priests preach a series of sermons on how Catholics should vote on a same-sex marriage referendum.

On his personal blog, Father Farrow wrote of his recent visit to D.C. to attend “meetings with representatives of various Catholic organizations and theologians who are organizing into a voice for the laity, clergy, and religious of our Church.” Father Tony portrays the meetings in more colorful terms: Those who came together that snowy weekend were

a cordial group of folks who are sorely discontent with the aggressive, inappropriate and hateful actions of the Catholic bishops regarding the LGBT community. We aren’t here to discuss just gay marriage, folks, although our losses on those state battlefields have awakened us to the need for a united voice that will help all Catholics guide their clueless bishops back onto the path of goodness and grace. Those bishops, the supposed shepherds of the flock, have lost their way, and it is up to the sheep to repair the damage they have done.

What’s particularly interesting about reading these blogs is the refrain that the bishops don’t represent the majority view of the Catholic laity. Both Father Farrow — “a public voice to the vast members of our Church” — and Father Tony — “the bishops no longer speak for the Catholic Church” — believe they are the spearheads of an inevitable Catholic uprising.

I’m unaware of any polling that shows that the majority of active Catholics no longer regard homosexual acts as sinful, or that same-sex marriage should be legalized. But even if such data could be produced, it would only prove the need for the Church to be more forthright in arguing its position on those issues. Catholic doctrine is not defined by polling — not yet, anyway.

Deal W. Hudson

By

Deal W. Hudson is president of Catholic Advocate, an organization which engages and encourages faithful Catholics to actively participate in the political process to support elected officials and policies that remain consistent with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Formerly publisher and editor of Crisis Magazine for ten years, his articles and comments have been published widely in publications such as the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Washington Post, and U.S. News and World Report. He has also appeared on TV and radio news shows such as the O'Reilly Factor, Hannity & Colmes, NBC News, and All Things Considered on National Public Radio. Hudson worked with Karl Rove in coordinating then-Gov. George W. Bush's outreach to Catholic voters in 2000 and 2004. In October 2003, President Bush appointed him a member of the official delegation from the United States to attend the 25th anniversary celebration of John Paul II's papacy. Hudson, a former professor of philosophy for 15 years, is the editor and author of eight books. He tells the story of his conversion from Southern Baptist to Catholic in An American Conversion (Crossroad, 2003), and his latest, Onward, Christian Soldiers: The Growing Political Power of Catholics and Evangelicals in the United States, was published in March 2008. He is married to Theresa Carver Hudson, also a Baptist convert, and they have two children, Hannah, 21, and Cyprian, 13, who was adopted from Romania in 2001.

  • Jitpring

    Nothing surprising here. Vatican II opened the floodgates. This is only more of its poisonous fruit.

  • georgie-ann

    if enough folks identify themselves clearly as representing and promoting anti-Catholic practices, isn’t it then as St. John says in one of his letters, that they “left us,” which shows that they “never were part of us,”…

    a bit like “excommunicating” themselves,…maybe the Bishops need to speak more clearly or strongly in this matter about those who represent themselves as “Catholic,” but clearly oppose the Truths of the Church,…

  • JA

    Father Tony goes on to describe the founders of CFE as an “A List of Catholic thorns in the sides of American Bishops…”

    One of those thorns is Fr. Joseph Palacios, professor at Georgetown and priest of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, as the Public Religion Research website tells us.

    http://tinyurl.com/yhu746c

    Why haven’t these thorns been plucked yet?

  • Jim B

    JA hit it on the head. Why doesn’t the Vatican acknowledge a schism and expel these folks – the time for coddling is over.

  • Bob

    There is almost 2000 years of Church teaching from Scripture and Tradition condemning homosexual acts as sinful. Homilies should include the teaching of the Gospel for that day, but also explain the clear teaching of the Church on this subject and from the Catechism. Turn the homily in to 45 minutes or as long as it takes to teach and explain not only the teaching on homosexuality but also on birth control, abortion, etc.

  • Deacon Ed

    is just around the corner, as there’s plenty of housecleaning to be done!

  • Mark Rutledge

    This is a serious issue confronting our Church, yet another born out of pride and rebellion. I am disappointed that some use it to grind their Vatican II axes. Pride and rebellion have been around since the Beginning (which was much earlier than 1962), the intra-church component of the sexual revolution was building long before John XXIII, and would have inflicted damage whatever the outcome from Rome. I concede that it was the so-called “spirit of Vatican II” that has given the rebellious the wind in their sails, and in all likelihood multiplied the damages done.

    That being said, the crux of the issue is rebellion to authentic Catholic moral teaching, and that should be the basis of our defense. Good Catholics must educate themselves on a) what that teaching is on human sexuality and marriage, b) why it is that way, c) why that teaching is GOOD, and d) the lies and tactics of the other side. We are the Church Militant and cannot sit back and wait for Sunday homilists to do the heavy lifting for us. We will never convince the rebellious as to the error of their ways (the Holy Spirit can convert them at the prompting of our prayers on their behalf), but we can reach the nominal, underinformed Catholic who are swayed by their sweet-sounding arguments and outright lies. Let us don the armor of God, and go fight the Good Fight.

  • georgie-ann

    and if, when the Truths are truly taught & preached, the offenders get offended & leave, so be it,…then we will be having the remnant, the smaller–but more faithful–Catholic Church that has been predicted,…

    let these delirious folks go elsewhere,…

    & if they don’t, if they “stick like glue” and claim their “populist rights” to re-define “what is Catholic,” then we just might get another taste of what it was like in Europe, with those subversive, atheistic philosophers who were determined (hell-bent) to undermine the True Faith (by infiltrating it) in the days preceding & influencing the course of Vatican II,…at that point, stronger & more direct measures might be called for,…

    or do we have the problem of “sheep & goats,” where ultimately God, Himself, will cull the herd?,…or the “wheat & the tares?”,…in which case, clear preaching/teaching will serve as the warning Paul admonishes us to give the determined offender(s), so that he/she/they might repent,…and, at any rate, their “blood” will then not “be on our hands,”…

    whether in the Church, or in our secular society, i think our “noble experiment with social compassion” has come up “wanting” and proven itself “lacking” in fundamental principles of guidance, expectation & performance results,…

    as Paul taught us, men run for a crown that fades (the illusory “glory” of sports), but “what’s it all about?”–or “what ultimate good is it?”–if we do not even more earnestly seek the “crown that endures?”, the crown of Eternal Life?,…

    how are we not now EXACTLY in the same position as the Romans, before they repented and came to Christ?,…

    & how many centuries did that take?,…

  • georgie-ann

    Mark,…i like what you just said,…

  • Fr Dwight Longenecker

    …says it all:

    “For many, as I have often told you
    and now tell you even in tears,
    conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
    Their end is destruction.
    Their God is their stomach;
    their glory is in their ‘shame.’

  • Ender

    there’s plenty of housecleaning to be done!

    Too true. Unfortunately there is a dearth of those willing to roll up their sleeves and take on the tasks that so sorely need to be done.

    Interestingly, the bishops are catching it from both sides. The GLBT side attacks “the bishops” as if what they were teaching was their own personal opinion rather than Church doctrine while the faithful attack them for not acting on their own and keeping their own houses in order. I’m quite sure that the GLBT’s won’t make any headway in getting the bishops to change and support their demands. Sadly, it’s not clear that we will be any more successful either.

  • Augustine Terra Mariae

    Two priests of the Archdiocese of Baltimore are members of the boards of New Ways Ministry. One is the chair of the board. The other is an actively serving parish pastor. A Baltimore-resident religious brother is also a board member. This organization not only opposes the Church’s moral teachings, but encourages others to reject and openly disobey them.

    Look here: http://www.newwaysministry.org/board.html

    It’s very revealing to note that no priest of the Washington archdiocese is involved at the board level, even though New Ways is headquartered in that diocese. This difference reflects a strong historical divergence between the ways the two archdioceses have dealt with public dissent among their priests. Obviously this reflects very negatively on Baltimore and its previous archbishops.

    If this situation does not constitute scandal, I am not sure what would.

  • Sharon Kieliszewski

    I believe there is a real disconnect in society as well as the Church because of the refusal of the pro-homosexual groups to let the opposing side present their case for the scientific reasons why the pro-homosexual agenda is not based on verifiable factual science.

    A good place to research this is on the “Narth” website.

    As a mother of a homosexual son, I find some of the comments that I often hear directed at the homosexual person very offensive and hurtful to people who have experienced enough pain to last a lifetime. Once someone understands the real reasons for the homosexual orientation I believe it is very hard to be so hurtfully judgemental. Am I saying that I agree with the lifestyle? Absolutely not, but I do see the Church as lax in presenting the scientific side to the moral argument. An excellent book that I recommend for all Christians to read is”Loving the Homosexual as Jesus Would” by Chad Thompson a young man who has left the lifestyle and is being helped by the “Reparative Therapy” method of reorientation.

  • georgie-ann

    what would be the laity’s options for “organizing themselves” properly, to become a strong voice for keeping the Catholic Church faithful to its fundamental truths?,…

    it always appears that strength is concentrated in the hands of the hierarchy in such a way that this process would be impeded,…i understand that the Church “moves slowly,” and perhaps rightly so,…

    i mean no disrespect, but sometimes i am amazed by the quagmires & obfuscation that result,…

  • georgie-ann
  • Michael

    …there’s plenty of housecleaning to be done!

    Yes, and the bishops can get us all started by using the broom of excommunication to sweep out the trash. The A-list of thorns in the bishops sides would be a very good place to begin.

  • Maureen

    In my experience, I’ve found the root cause for liberalism is selfishness and cowardice. That’s why people who are liberal are for ANYTHING. They don’t want to take a moral stand for fear of offending someone. They talk a good game about being concerned for those less fortunate but, in truth, are only concerned about themselves. That’s why conservatives give more to charity! We actually LIVE biblical ethics.

    I like to think of Judas as the first liberal. He whined about selling the expensive ointment instead of being moved that the woman used it to anoint Christ’s feet. Isn’t that totally liberal/socialist? Taking other peoples money via taxes, etc..and claiming to give it to the poor while lining one’s own and friends/lobbyists pockets? Saint John said Judas was in charge of the purse that was why he was so anxious to get the money.

    Not a lot changes, does it?

  • Stephen Wise

    If the CIA was truly intelligent, they would take all the Catholics who support gay marriage and put them together with all the Catholics who support torture and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (some support both gay marriage and torture) and send the group to China.

    That way China would fail, just like the U.S. has.

  • LGBTQ Ally

    Good for them! Finally a major religious group that sees that homosexuality is something to be embraced, rather than shunned! This makes me so proud and happy and gives me hope that maybe not all of humanity is close-minded and discrimatory. Bravo, Catholics For Equality! Bravo!

  • Ryan Haber

    LGBTQ Ally,

    Lol. We can embrace people, and love them in spite of their sins, even love them in their sins… but to stop calling a sin a sin… that is the path to the end of the world. It is rebellion against God and a denial of reality.

    LGBTQ, I can guess what ‘Q’ stands for, but I cannot begin to guess when you will be able to stop adding letters to your moniker in order to make someone else feel good. Will you be LGBTQP next, P for ‘pederasty’? You know there are people who want to make that legal. Or maybe P will stand for ‘polyamory’ – certainly some people really feel that is deeply part of them, and therefore should be condoned regardless of the social destruction it wrecks upon us all. Instead, maybe P will stand for ‘pee-pee’. Without getting graphic, you must surely be aware that some fetishize urine.

    When do we simply call depravity ‘depravity’ or at least ‘mental illness’, LGBTQ? When do we stop being ‘nice’ and start calling a spade a spade?

  • David Raineri-Maldonado

    I believe there is a real disconnect in society as well as the Church because of the refusal of the pro-homosexual groups to let the opposing side present their case for the scientific reasons why the pro-homosexual agenda is not based on verifiable factual science.

    A good place to research this is on the “Narth” website.

    As a mother of a homosexual son, I find some of the comments that I often hear directed at the homosexual person very offensive and hurtful to people who have experienced enough pain to last a lifetime. Once someone understands the real reasons for the homosexual orientation I believe it is very hard to be so hurtfully judgemental. Am I saying that I agree with the lifestyle? Absolutely not, but I do see the Church as lax in presenting the scientific side to the moral argument. An excellent book that I recommend for all Christians to read is”Loving the Homosexual as Jesus Would” by Chad Thompson a young man who has left the lifestyle and is being helped by the “Reparative Therapy” method of reorientation.

    If you wish to reorient your son,take a look at “Exodus International”.

  • LGBTQ Ally

    Ryan Haber,

    The major flaw in your argument is that homosexuality is not a sin. Even if “God” existed, which he doesn’t, it would not be a sin. That is an incorrect interpretation of the Bible, which, by the way, is a fictional book written by men very similar to yourself, apparently.

    And to compare the gay community to pedophiles, like some of your Catholic priests, is not only ignorant, but it is, again, close-minded at best. They are not mentally ill, or depraved, and I don’t understand how you can sit there and call them such. They are people, just like you, and they have every right to live their lives without people like you telling them they’re wrong. They’re not hurting anyone and there’s nothing wrong with them. The sooner you and everyone else accept that, the sooner we can have a healthier world to live in.

    I suppose you must be racist, too? After all, it wasn’t so long ago that people like you said exactly the same things about people of different races and colors. You might want to be careful just how much you buy into what your religion tells you is right or wrong, especially since followers of every religion in the world are absolutely positive that their way is the right way. We’ll never truly know, but don’t make that part of your argument because no one will listen. Wise up, and perhaps take a philosophy class or two. It might help to enlighten your prejudiced mind. Or at least grow a brain to begin with.

    LGBTQP Ally.

  • Francis Wippel

    I suppose it

  • Mark

    “I like to think of Judas as the first liberal. He whined about selling the expensive ointment…” – Maureen

    Yes, and to so generously “give that money to the poor” Judas was also the best educated of the twelve which brings him even more in line with contemporary liberal elites who continuously lecture us about the importance of “education” when they really mean brainwashing.. the type which has occurred on college campuses regarding homosexuality among other lies for several decades now.

  • Anne Roszell

    “When do we simply call depravity ‘depravity’ or at least ‘mental illness’? When do we stop being ‘nice’ and start calling a spade a spade?”

    It isn’t a mental illness if there is nothing wrong with the person. Last time I checked, love wasn’t a mental illness or a sin. In fact, Christianity is supposed to be all about love and acceptance and not judging others. How are you loving and accepting others if you tell them they are going to burn in hell?

    What exactly is going to happen if we allow homosexuals to marry? Are pedophiles going to start being let off the hook? Are people going to start marrying their dogs? No. Homosexuals have been able to get married in the Netherlands since 2001, and most of Europe now (including Catholic Italy), and the world still hasn’t come to an end. Citing the bible is not your best option here. The bible also encourages slavery, will not allow handicapped people to approach the altar, allows me to stone you if you work on Sundays, and makes football sacrilegious.

    Am I Catholic? Yes. Do I allow my religious beliefs to infringe on other’s rights? No. I’m an American before I’m a Catholic, and as an American I firmly believe in my moral responsibility to protect the rights of my fellow citizens without the interference of any religious text. Not everyone follows the same religion; some people aren’t even religious. It is easier if we simply ignore religion when determining rights and laws.

    Finally, we live in a world full of war, racism, slavery, and human trafficking, and one of the biggest issues America is facing right now is whether or not to allow two people who love each other to get married?! And you want to talk about depravity?

  • Jitpring

    LGBTQ Ally, keep it up! It’s good to periodically witness the inane ramblings of the thoroughly conformed and utterly processed.

  • Jitpring
  • Tony Adams

    Dear Deal Hudson,

    May I offer at least two corrections to your post about the meeting in DC?

    You say that I did not disclose the name of Father Farrow in my post, but his name (with his permission) was in fact in the list.

    Also, you have given me a new last name! I am Tony Adams. (I am one of the editors of Bilerico.com).

    I enjoyed reading the two dozen comments on your post because they are a good clarification of the moment in which we live. While most of us would agree that Revelation and the movement of the Holy Spirit may be charted in both Scripture and Tradition, most of your commenters feel that Revelation is over. In contrast, i suspect that most of the folks at the DC meeting feel the movement of the Holy Spirit in their souls and have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is directing the Catholic Church to grant equal rights to LGBT Catholics and to women and married men.

    Those of you who suggest or forecast a schism may not be off base. Please keep in mind that the vast majority of your priests, bishops and cardinals are gay. On which side of the schism should they cluster? Do you want to keep them in charge of you as long as they are closeted liars? Also, it is my opinion that gay rights and the rights of women to full ordination and the rights of married folks to full ordination are closely related.

    In a schism, if all the gay clergy and the sorely oppressed nuns and married men and women who deserve rights ended up claiming the Catholic Church as their own, the remnant would be tiny and incapable of supporting the financial infrastructure of Catholicism. Nothing scares the hearts of the Catholic hierarchy like money problems! Soon, some future pope would announce that the Holy Spirit has spoken in favor of equal rights and the schism will be healed.

    There is historical precedent for this in the Roman Catholic Church’s tradition. In the 12th century when the Cardinals gathered to elect a pope, they squabbled for months. Finally, the local folks got fed up and locked them in the cathedral. Still they fought. The laity then reduced their food to bread and water. Still they continued their childish power struggle. Finally,when the laity tore the roof off the cathedral to let in the elements, the cardinals felt the Holy Spirit!

    My message to all of you is that you have nothing to fear. The Holy Spirit goes where the Holy Spirit wants to go! None of us can control it or fully see it, although sadly, some old men in copious red silk have devoted their lives to that misguided effort. Relax, and trust God.

  • Peeb

    “Am I Catholic? Yes. Do I allow my religious beliefs to infringe on other’s rights? No. I’m an American before I’m a Catholic, …

    You might want to rethink that. [smiley=think]

    Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is Gods. All good and fine. But in the event the two are in irreconcilable conflict, you pick the government over God? Hmmm.

  • Administrator

    Also, you have given me a new last name! I am Tony Adams. (I am one of the editors of Bilerico.com).

    Thanks for the correction, Tony. We will make the change, and we apologize for the error.

  • Stephen Wise

    To Tony Adams,

    Actively gay priests/bishops are as fit to minister the Gospel as obese people are to run a marathon.

    Our Lord tells us that to have a “self” we have to lose our self. Active gays have it backwards. In exaulting themselves, they wind up losing themselves.

    Not long ago, I asked a gay psychotherapist if he was conscious of having a “self?” He said “good question.”

  • Ryan Haber

    LGBTQP Ally,

    The major flaw in your argument is that homosexuality is not a sin. Even if “God” existed, which he doesn’t, it would not be a sin. That is an incorrect interpretation of the Bible…

    You don’t believe in God, and you are going to tell those who do believe in God what His will would be if He existed? That’s just a bit silly, don’t you think.

    In your post the self-pity or the vicarious self-pity (“poor them”) that underwrites the homosexualist movement is writ large.

    They are not mentally ill, or depraved, and I don’t understand how you can sit there and call them such. They are people, just like you, and they have every right to live their lives without people like you telling them they’re wrong.

    (Emphasis added.)

    Now, this is not just a semantic issue. I never in my life said, “homosexual people are wrong” or anything like it. It is symptomatic of chronic self-pity to overpersonalize criticism. If I said to my employee, “You filed these documents incorrectly,” or “The design you’ve given me doesn’t meet our client’s requirements,” it is not a statement about him, but about his work, which is distinct from him. Homosexuals, in my experience, often take rebukes of their actions deadly personal. Saying “sodomy is immoral” because interpreted as you just did, “People who experience homosexual temptations are “wrong.” And I say that self-pity and vicarious self-pity underwrite the homosexualist movement because their arguments for why sodomy and homosexual “marriage” should be tolerated in society always come down to “how can you be so mean?” That argument should not be convincing to any rationally-thinking adult, but it does kick us right in our guilt complex very effectively.

    I for one am perhaps cruel and unusual, but I do not spoil children for fear of being “mean” nor of being disliked. I don’t care if you think me mean or my religion irrational.

    They are not mentally ill, or depraved, and I don’t understand how you can sit there and call them such.

    They are mentally ill. Up until the 1960s, the entire psychological establishment agreed as well. I am not out on a limb here. It is not normal or healthy. Study after study shows not only the medical health risks, but also the sad mental health state of practicing homosexuals – who are consistently in therapy and commit suicide at rates far higher than the general populace. The reason: because people have been so mean to them. Again, with the self-pity.

    They are people, just like you, and they have every right to live their lives without people like you telling them they’re wrong.

    Moreover, your basic logic here is silly. No, they emphatically do not have the right not to have things said to them that make them feel bad. They do not have to listen, they do not have to take it personally, but if I and other mean people have the freedom of speech, that means that they will from time to time hear things they do not like, things that even make them feel bad. If we base constitutional law on the hurt feelings of anyone, let alone every minute minority that clamors loudly, we will have no law left in very short order.

    I suppose you must be racist, too?

    I cannot for my life see the logical connection between saying, “Theft is a sin,” and “I hate black people,” or why one should indicate the other. Precisely because I do not categorize persons with same sex attractions based upon their particular sins, their sins are no reason to hate them.

    And to equate different skin color with sodomy… or even with a different mental health state… it’s ridiculous. It shows that you are the racist, manipulating the historical cultural identity of a significant proportion of the US population in order to advance an agenda.

    Moreover, how do you know what race I am?

    Lastly, homosexual actions are a denial of reality as posts here defending them show. Immediately, Tony Adams pipes up, “Also, it is my opinion that gay rights and the rights of women to full ordination and the rights of married folks to full ordination are closely related.” Of course they are. The whole underlying theme of the homosexualist and radical feminist agenda is that there is no inherent, substantive difference between men and women. None. Only culturally-invested diverses, that are morally relative and socially reconstructible. This belief is a frank denial that God is God and that He has created the universe and humanity in one particular way (with set boundaries and order) and not in another (entirely malleable to persons’ wishes).

    Anne Roszell,

    I never did cite the Bible. I talked about God, but I’ve really only said a few things about Him that are observable in nature and don’t really need dogma to “prove” them. Nobody doubts that trees are a certain way, and no other. We can change trees because it is within our nature to be able to do so. Trees cannot voluntarily change themselves – they are only changed by the environment around them. We have the ability to change ourselves, but to what extent may we, without wrecking havoc we cannot repair?

    Lastly, LGBTQP Ally, you wrote:

    Wise up, and perhaps take a philosophy class or two. It might help to enlighten your prejudiced mind. Or at least grow a brain to begin with.

    I am willing to wager that I have taken considerably more philosophy in college and grad school than you have, Mr. LGBTQP Ally. Considerably more. Unless you have already completed your PhD in Philosophy, I wouldn’t take me up on this one.

  • Francis Wippel

    I am amazed at the pro-gay marriage supporters who claim to be Catholic but completely ignore the Word of God on this matter. Just because we want something to be so doesn

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Stephen Wise,

    Here are the facts:

    Your Catholic priest is probably gay.
    Your gay Catholic priest is probably sexually active.
    There is a priestly code of secrecy about this. It is fast eroding.
    Priests are not well trained for celibacy. In my 12 years in the seminary, faculty members had sex with students, setting an unpunished example that spoke louder than any sermon about celibacy. (Sorry to have to say things that may be shocking, but I think a time of brutal honesty is upon us.)
    A lack of celibacy in the clergy is expressed also in non-sexual ways: an inordinate interest in fine dining, alcohol and gambling and “respectable” acquisitions such as expensive cars, vacations and real estate. I saw all of this from a perspective not allowed the laity.
    The code of secrecy is also eroding because the police no longer feel obliged to hide the story when a priest is arrested for drunken or disorderly conduct (euphemism for “caught with his pants down”).
    While I have nothing against active homosexuals as Church leaders, I do not think they should have an almost exclusive right to the franchise. It would be healthier for all of us if the priesthood contained men, women and married folks.
    I firmly believe that Jesus, were he to address this matter, would agree with me.
    I firmly believe that most American Catholics agree with me about this.

    My real message is that the lives of the vast majority of Catholic priests are not healthy and certainly not what Jesus intended. This needs to be rectified. Before I left the active ministry, I remember sitting at dinner at the “secret” home owned by my pastor and his lover. I looked at the other priests at table, each with his own set of twisted secrets. I knew that they were not in the minority. Maybe because I was rather good looking in those days, I was frequently approached by other clergy who wanted sex. I knew it was widespread. I was 30 years old. I did not want to be like them.

    I think it’s time for all of us to wake up and smell the coffee. We should not fear the changes to come. Even if the Catholic Church is cut down to its roots by a schism, it will survive and grow back stronger. The control freaks among us will worry and fret and stamp their feet, while the Holy Spirit moves like water through the tiniest cracks in the vessel.

  • Stephen Wise

    Tony,

    In your last statement, you say that the “vast majority of Catholic priests are not healthy.” And then you say that you have “nothing against active homosexual Church leaders.”

    The question is — Why do you support a lifestyle that you say is unhealthy?

    Perhaps the bigger question is — Can a gay priest be celibate and holy?

  • Mark

    “Here are the facts:

    Your Catholic priest is probably gay.
    Your gay Catholic priest is probably sexually active”

    From Catholic Answers:

    One survey done by the Kansas City Star found that “three-fourths of [priests] responding described themselves as heterosexual, 15 percent said they were homosexual, and 5 percent bisexual” (Judy Thomas, “AIDS in the Priesthood,” Kansas City Star, Jan. 29, 2000

  • Anne Roszell
    “Am I Catholic? Yes. Do I allow my religious beliefs to infringe on other’s rights? No. I’m an American before I’m a Catholic, …

    You might want to rethink that. [smiley=think]

    Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and unto God that which is Gods. All good and fine. But in the event the two are in irreconcilable conflict, you pick the government over God? Hmmm.

    Not necessarily. If the government starts denying people their rights, I’ll choose neither. In the public sphere, my allegiance lies with people’s human and civil rights, not a higher power.

    Ryan Haber,

    “Trees cannot voluntarily change themselves – they are only changed by the environment around them. We have the ability to change ourselves, but to what extent may we, without wrecking havoc we cannot repair?”

    Okay, and if the Church doesn’t want to perform homosexual marriages, that’s fine. I’m not expecting the Church to change; I’m simply demanding that the state perform and acknowledge homosexual marriages. Marriage is just as much a legal right now as it is a religious ceremony.

    And change is not always a bad thing. I could cite historical examples ad nauseam, but I imagine you can already think of a few yourself.

  • Mark

    From OneNewsNow May, 2009

    “The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there’s no homosexual “gene” — meaning it’s not likely that homosexuals are born that way.

    Quote from the APA:

    ‘There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles….’

    That contrasts with the APA’s statement in 1998: “There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person’s sexuality.”

    Yes, there is a “spirit” behind the homosexual movement, but it is the spirit of confusion, pride and lust, not the Holy Spirit.

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Stephen Wise,

    Under the current circumstances marked by covert clerical sex lives and a double standard and homophobia, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than it is for a gay priest to be healthy. Being gay is not unhealthy. Being closeted and having sex on the “down low” or sublimating through alcohol, carbohydrates or other worldly diversions, while preaching against homosexuality is definitely unhealthy.

    I have some gay friends who are better celibates than many gay priests I know because they bind themselves to a variety of personal spiritual disciplines that do not simply substitute one indulgence for another. Let me repeat that seminaries do not train men well in the discipline of celibacy and the bad example set by the clergy certainly speaks louder than any theology course in the matter. So, to your question “Can a gay priest be celibate and holy?”, I would respond yes, I think it is possible, but he could also be sexually active and married and be no less holy. It’s the deceit and duplicity that is unhealthy and unholy.

    We should also take a close look at the high level of sexual obsession evidenced by the clergy, especially the bishops. What’s that all about? So many unresolved personal sexual issues color their teachings and attitudes and fuel their homophobia.

    It makes me sad to watch them make a twisted mess out of the practice of Catholicism. That is why I am speaking up now after so many years. I have nothing to lose or gain by this, but I resent this Pope’s self-serving unChristian behavior and I cannot quietly tolerate the American hierarchy’s attack on the gay community and its mistreatment of women and women religious. And please don’t bother trying to sell me on the line that the bishops love the homosexual but hate his sinful ways. Nonsense.

    It is time that for the American bishops to stop trying to control the placement of the American penis during sex. That is really what this comes down to if you will pardon my blunt language. The bishops need to get their noses out of our sheets and take care of what is going on in their own beds.

  • R.C.

    Sometimes when one takes an either/or position, it is a fallacy.

    But there remain occasions when two items are so inherently contradictory, only one can be true. Either/Or logic is then applicable.

    The Catholic Church has the Magisterium, Sacred Tradition, and Scriptures. These sources of teaching weave together to provide an unshakable and infallible authority which, among other things, traces the outline of Christian truth in the area of faith and morals.

    What falls inside that outline is Christian and celebrated in the body of Christ; what falls outside that outline is not. And this understanding of authority within the Church is central to the Church’s self-identity. If it is wrong, the whole Church is a sham and we’d all be better off being atheists.

    Now on the matter of homosexuality and marriage, the Magisterium and Sacred Tradition and the Scriptures are unanimous:

    1. Only two opposite-gender persons may marry;

    2. Only persons who are already married may have sexual relations without sin (and even within marriage not everything goes);

    3. It is gravely disordered for two same-gender persons to masturbate one another, and such acts are not considered to be the same species of act as the marital act, but of another species;

    4. Marriage is a sacrament, with its own forms and elements, instituted by Christ, which the Church has no authority to alter;

    5. To take a contract between two same-gendered persons to cohabitate and masturbate one another exclusively, and call that “marriage,” as if it were identical to the Christian sacrament of the same name, is a sacrilege on the order of taking a slab of sheetrock and a Dixie-cup full of motor oil, saying the words of consecration over them, and calling the result “the Eucharist.”

    That is the teaching of the Church. That is what it has been for two thousand years.

    If the Church changes its teaching in these areas, it will thereby demonstrate that it was either in error then, or is in error now.

    That would violate the Church’s self-identification as she against whom “the gates of Hades would not prevail.” Hell would have prevailed, either then or now. In either case, the Church would have proved herself, by her own standards, to not actually be the Church of Jesus Christ, but rather some pointless social club, and an utter waste of time.

    Or alternatively one could conclude that the promise of Jesus (that the gates of Hades would not prevail) would have proven false: In which case Jesus is not God, was not raised from the dead, and all our hopes are vain, as St. Paul states. Under those circumstances, mass suicide might be the most rational option, but those without the courage to do that could presumably deceive themselves into finding some other meaning for existence for as long as their meat-puppet remained healthy enough to eat, excrete, and suck wind.

    Now, I admire LGBTQ Ally in a fashion. Morality as a set of rules distinct from “what will get me what I want right now” is an illogical proposition, if one starts from the assumptions he uses. There is therefore, in his system of thought, no purpose in continuing all that Christianity nonsense, all that Jesus nonsense, all that God nonsense, all that altruism nonsense, all that future generations nonsense.

    And he is clear-thinking enough to be aware of all that, and bold enough to come out and say so.

    Granted, if he were clear-thinking enough to think out all the logical implications of his philosophy and bold enough to act in accord with those implications, he’d likely have killed himself sometime before posting here. That we have his post to read tells us we cannot credit him both with perfectly clear thinking, or with uninterrupted boldness! But that’s being rather too picky. In this era of philosophical ignorance, devoid of the silence required for serious contemplation, so few men think their philosophies through.

    So all that is forgivable, and we can admire LGBTQ Ally not only for saying what he thinks, but that there is some logical consistency in what he thinks.

    Of some other posters here, I fear we cannot even say that much.

    In particular, if a person identifies as Catholic and thinks there’s any purpose in the continuing existence of the Catholic church or Christianity in general, yet takes a moral position whose logical implications are that the Church is a sham and Jesus merely some dead-and-gone historical figure, they thereby exhibit utterly cloudy and confused thinking.

    But that’s the inescapable logical conclusion of the matter. You either get Christ and the Church, or you get Gay Marriages et alia. This is one of those times: It really is Either/Or.

    “Choose you this day….”

  • Nick P

    I appreciate the thoughtfulness of many on this thread. I do, however, wonder if regular IC posters shouldn’t just ignore some of the ad hominem bile spewed by LGB-blah-blah and his/her/its ilk. Ryan did an insightful and Christian job rebutting that post, but, why bother?

    I’m an alcoholic, sober by the grace of God. I do not view my alcoholism as a sin, yet is does incline me to sin. When I started drinking, I could never stop — one drink to many, twenty drinks too few. For me now to pick up a drink WOULD, in my mind, be a sin — I know the eventual outcome, and I know how to prevent it from occurring. There are, sadly, some alcoholics constitutionally unable to stop. I see them at meetings week after week, year after year. And, I pray for them. My guess is that they are not living in sin, but affected by a severe malady. We live in a fallen world. I pray for them, and know that God loves them.

    C.S. Lewis, in ‘Mere Christianity’ (I believe) likened moral improvement as being placed onto a landing net on the side of a ship. We improve to the extent that we make progress upward. Life circumstances — genes, parents, traumatic events, good fortune — may have some starting higher on the net, others lower. It matters less who ends up “higher on the net,” and more how much progress each of us makes upward from our starting point. Lewis notes that a serial killer might be more moral in mercifully ending the life of a victim rather than continuing torture than a less-depraved person would be in giving to the poor. (I hope I’m not torturing Lewis too much…)

    It would be no mercy to me if my wife were to encourage me to continue drinking to quell my urges to drink. I have no right to demand that an employer or society at large refrain from complaining if I underperform due to drink, nor that people refrain from calling me a stinking drunk — which I could quickly become.

    I see direct parallels to homosexuality. It’s wrong. Even if it were “healthy” in some medical sense it would be wrong. And, the plain evidence is that it’s not healthy. I am not being merciful if I condone homosexual behavior. I am abetting sin.

    As for the separation-of-church-and-state malarkey, first, the phrase only appears in a personal note from Jefferson. It is nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights. Second, its intent is the protection of all religions from the tyranny of a single, state-sponsored religion. In the 1700s such state religions were the threat. Today, the threat comes more from the GBDCRTS’s and their secular “religion” of “do what makes me feel good with tolerance and smiles for all (except those accursed papists, damn them to secular hell).”

    Marriage within the Catholic Church is a sacrament. In society at large it grew from this understanding. It forms the most basic, and most important unit of society — the family. If non-religious, or those religious who believe homosexuality not to be a sin wish to allow homosexuals to live together, fine. But it neither deserves nor merits the word “marriage.” And, as we are seeing in Europe and Canada, once marriage is so defined, it quickly becomes “illegal” for even a Catholic priest or believer to speak out against homosexuality. This happens now. We see similar threats to religious freedom with respect to abortion. Our betters in Washington are suggesting that, perhaps, Catholics should avoid jobs in hospital emergency rooms, otherwise risk being forced to perform acts against their consciences.

    Than again, I took only two or three philosophy courses in the 1970s at an engineering-focused college. And, I was probably drunk or hung over in many of them. So, LGB, just ignore me. Never mind.

  • Nick P

    All, I just realized that I mistyped somewhat in my post above. I wrote “Today, the threat comes more from the GBDCRTS’s…” On rereading my post, I noticed that this might appear to be directed at one of our two major political parties. While the mistake may be taken by some as Freudian, I absolutely did not intend this. You’ll note that all the “offending” letters are all from the left-hand side of the keyboard.

    I am serious in this apology. This was unintentional. In fact, I’m more ham-handed than this; if I did intend to be offensive to some, it would have been more obvious…

  • Louis

    While I have always believed that we could not exist unless there were a “God” in the sense of an Infinitely First Cause of all existence,I have never seen credible evidence that that God writes books or founds official fan clubs for itself.

    That said,right and wrong are out there for us to discover,not decide for ourselves.The evolution of sexual dimorphism in a species determines opposite-sex sexual activity to be exclusively normative for that species,and attempting to justify same-sex sexual activity is completely irrational.

    Friends don’t let friends start or stay in same-sex sexual relationships.There is no “equal rights” or “bigotry” at issue here…wrong and right are not equals and standards of conduct are not “bigotry” against those inclined to violate them,but apply equally to all.

    My driver’s license includes a restriction obliging me to wear lenses to correct my inferior,defective vision to the only kind people OUGHT to have,in order to be allowed to drive.This is not “discrimination” against my “equal right” to “see differently”,ideally served by giving me separate roads with large-type signs,but an honest acknowledgement that there is something WRONG with me.
    My left ear does not hear “differently” from my right ear,it hears WORSE.Not all differences are value-neutral!

    To claim that same-sex sexual relationships are of as much worth to human society,and therefore equally worthy of recognition and benefits in return,is totally absurd.
    One does not have to believe that sex must only be within marriage to believe that opposite-sex relationships should be on a higher legal plane…my own reading of the United States Constitution would make this an obligation under the General Welfare Clause.

    To return to the issue of religion,no religion’s credibility as a source of inalterable Divine will can survive being seen to “change with the times”.Once a faith has spoken on an issue its bet is cast.There are issues on which I consider Catholicism completely wrong and homosexuality is one on which it is only incidentally right…but to claim to be a Catholic and to advocate defiance of Catholic teachings on moral behavior is to have no credibility.

    If Tony Adams cared about Catholicism he’d be trying to publicly shame and demand the excommunication of every homosexual cleric he could.He doesn’t…he cares more about helping homosexual activity escape the censure it deserves.

    Finally…remember that whether or not there’s a genetic component to homosexuality,no one is ever born “gay”.If one uses the word in the context of this issue (rather than the correct connotation of happiness),it betokens both same-sex attraction AND the attitude that same-sex sexual activity is justifiable.And the latter is certainly acquired through misapprehension and curable through honest education.Being of opposite sexes ranks first among all pre-requisites for sexual behavior between two people being rationally defensible.Sexes exist for each other.

  • Christine

    Mr. Adams,

    So I guess your argument is this…

    If several Bishops and Priests decide to jump off the cliff to their deaths…

    As long as they tell you you are jumping to your death:

    We should call it a good thing because they are being truthful about wanting to jump of a cliff and take you with them, and

    We should encourage everybody else to jump off the cliff because the priests are doing it…

    Well, as long as they are no longer living “a lie”.

    The Catholic Church has always established that the sexual act should be confined and enjoyed between a married man and woman only.

    If you’re having sex with someone else other than the person of the opposite sex to whom you are married, you are committing a mortal sin and cannot receive Holy Communion. This will not Change within the Catholic Church.

    Just because people sin (we all do) doesn’t mean we stop dealing with the Truth, that certain acts are sinful and lead to the detriment of our relationship with God.

    “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them.

    “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

    Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
    Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’

    “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
    The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.

    And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
    The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”

    I am truly sorry that you witnessed such horrible and sinful behavior perpetrated by our very Shepherds.

    Just because you love them means that in the Spirit of Charity you should not condone behavior that puts them out of communion with the Church. If you believe in the Church, you must believe this, or you are just building sand castles.

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Christine and Louis,

    I rather glaze over whenever someone resorts to the “this is obviously and logically wrong/right” argument. Things are not obviously wrong or right, black or white. You may want them to be because that would make your lives so much easier. You would know who and what to hate without reservation. You’d have a clear script for living, wouldn’t you? You’d be relieved of the responsibility to noodle through the business of loving as Jesus loved, sometimes knotting a cord and lashing out at the low life in the temple, sometimes challenging those who wanted to stone an adultress.

    I’m sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, Christine and Louis, but it ain’t that easy. You’re not off the hook. You have personal work to do if you want to be more like Jesus.

    You mentioned “mortal sin”, Christine. I don’t know how old you are, but I distinctly remember when the bishops announced that eating meat on Friday was no longer a mortal sin. Just like that! One day a bit of swallowed roast beef could send you into the burning torment of hell for all eternity and the next day it’s no big deal. That is not an exaggeration, incidentally. It’s a fact and it happened in our lifetime. It was pivotal in that it taught the American Catholic that what we had supposed to be immutable and absolute was really rather arbitrary and constructed by man, not by God. It was like seeing the man behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz.

    I sometimes think that folks like you fear change because you see change as destruction. A plant grows out of the dirt. It makes a bud. The bud becomes a flower. The petals wilt and fall to the ground. The plant seems to die under the cover of snow. In Spring it wakes up. You would be foolish to protest this natural process, but you that is exactly what you attempt to do to the grace of God and the movement of the Holy Spirit. Relax guys. You won’t be hurt, as the Catholic Church grows into its embracing of rights for gays and women.

  • Mark Rutledge

    Tony, the folks here are a bit more astute than you apparently think. Recitation of the platitudes, banalities, and half-truths of the day only serve to stifle meaningful debate, which is perhaps the underlying reason why homosexual apologists lean on them so heavily.

  • Stephen Wise

    Tony,

    I think a lot of faithful lay people are aware of what’s going on among the clergy and society with respect to the growing gay culture.

    Those who are trying to follow in Christ’s footsteps are charitable, even to to wolves who threaten the Church, knowing that evil doesn’t get the last word.

    It’s important for you to understand that active homosexuality is incompatible with wholeness/holiness. Therefore it should not be embraced in marriage or the priesthood. And priests who are unwilling/unable to change should no longer be priests.

  • Mary Kenny

    Sharon Kieliszewski, please read “The Riddle of Gender: Science, Activism, and Transgender Rights” by Deborah Rudacille, and google intersex syndromes and South African running champion Caster Semenya who was recently globally shamed for being BORN with one of 46 known intersex conditions that develop in the uterus from multiple sperm fertilizations of one egg, opposite sex twin fusions into hermaphrodite singleton chimeras, microchimerism DNA debris of already born siblings from Vatican-mandated large families, out-of-cycle “surprise” fertilizations by defective older sperm from Vatican-mandated Natural Family “Planning”, and ubiquitous endocrine disrupters like the Vatican-mandated DES debacle that feminized male fetuses to “prevent miscarriages”. Just as God created enormous variations in our outward appearances, he/she did the same with our internal genders which medical science is only now beginning to unravel. Sanctimonious opposition to same-sex marriages attacks ALL marriages because no one is perfectly male or female. I challenge gay marriage opponents to medically prove THEIR OWN ALLEGED genders, and to return to their FIRST spouses to practice what they preach. Many married intersex couples and gender apartheid clergy don’t know they are intersexed. Famous overlooked, lusted-after examples include infertile supermodels with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome who, as XY MALES, convert all testosterone into estrogen, thus developing their stunning beauty of Crest commercial toothpaste teeth, luxuriant scalp hair, hairless arms and legs, flawless acne-free skin, wasp waistes, big boobs, and blessed lack of cycles (because they have no uteruses!). Why would God create intersex and gay people? — to counteract planet-ruining overpopulation and staggering child abuse by unholy breeders. Perhaps the earth could support 20 billion people, but look at the massive street urchin problem in Catholic poverty pits in the Philippines and Latin America. As for the insulting body-structure-determines-use “moral argument”, may I remind gay bashers of their gushing praise of amputees who produce art, etc. by their remaining limbs? Such Nazi libel of non-procreative straight and gay couples reminds me of a plastic surgeon who cleverly restored an accident-disfigured nurse by reconstructing her missing lips from private area tissue. Catholic sticklers, using their renowned unforgiving “logic”, would condemn the surgeon and patient for “perverse mutilation”. Kissing anyone with her new lips would technically be “sodomy”. This actual case about Air Force nurse Leola Mae Harmon was brought to TV in the 1984 movie “Why Me?” with Armand Assante as surgeon James Stallings. Everyone should be allowed to make lemon aid out of lemon lives. If Catholic gay bashers can hypocritically enjoy multiple annulments from pedophile priest-protecting bishops and stage big church weddings to sterile SHEMALE supermodels, honest gays and intersex couples deserve equal marriage rights.

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Mark Rutledge,

    While folks here seem to have better mastery of grammar than do most hordes of commenters elsewhere, I don’t find evidence that you (plural) are exceedingly astute in faith and morals or better acquainted with the love of Jesus given to the human race.

    You don’t like my imagery. I can easily imagine you coming up to Jesus after his sermon on the mount with a patronizing smile as you begin “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus….”

    How dare I compare myself to Jesus the storyteller? Well, I am, by dint of ordination, an Alter Christus, so I’ve the stroyteller’s mantle. Stay tuned. This will have a happy ending, if it is of God.

  • Mark Rutledge

    To see evidence, one must first be looking for it, and summarily open to seeing it when presented. The belittling of those who don’t accept one’s radical visions suggests that the spirit at work is not a holy one.

  • Laurie

    Tony,

    It is obvious you are true to your convictions. But what if you are wrong? How do you deal with your choices then? Why is your belief right and all those who oppose you and 2000 years of Church teachings wrong? The Church has never falter on this issue. It can’t. As others explained in earlier posts, the Church would not be the One True Church if it did this.
    I can not imagine having such a difficult cross as yours. But first it must be acknowledge as a cross rather than an acceptable way of life. If all you have written is true about your time in the Seminary and gay priests, I can understand where some of your convictions come from. It still does not mean you are correct.
    There have been many schisms in our Church, and still it stands the same as it did 2000 years ago. Homosexuality is considered an intrinsic evil in our Church. It is recorded in the bible both Old Testament and New Testament as a sin against God. The Church would have to omit these writings in order for homosexuality to be acceptable. How can the Church do that?
    To say others are not acquainted with Jesus and his love for man kind is judging someone’s heart. Defending the Church’s teachings is the requirement of all Catholics.
    God Bless.

  • Mother of Two Sons

    Tony, I share your disgust at the hypocritical position of the Priests, Bishops and Religious who are living duplicitous lives… they are after all supposed to be the model Catholic Christians. You stated that you believed that the seminary really didn’t teach celibacy or properly prepare individuals to live celibate lives. Sad to say the sexual abuse that was going on and perhaps persists today has gone on unpunished! I know first hand what you are talking about but I didn’t draw the same conclusion as you…. In days like these SAINTS and Holy Men and Women of God would rise up and call others to live holy lives…. not lower the bar and say… go ahead and sin any way you want to….. I recognize that the last 20 to 30 years has had a lot of emphasis on our sexuality… a great and amazing gift.. my question is if you took sex out of the picture, what would single men and woman have to focus on? Oh, that’s right building the Kingdom… transforming our social structures so that it supports children and families and extended families instead of BIG Government and BIG Church Buildings and BIG Corporations who are completely driven by money!
    We have witnessed tremendous leaps forward in technologies and actually have become quite astute about every possible sexual position available to man/woman in the last few decades….. since truthfully that great act is over in less that 30-45 mins if you are lucky… how about if we focus on the 24.5 other hours of the day and usher in a community revolution that leads us to resemble Heaven…. more and more.
    I guess, thanks Deal for bringing this other can of worms out into the open….. I say clean house and ordain holy men, married or single…. maybe ordain them for 5 – 10 years of priestly duty and then they can marry after that?

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Stephen Wise,

    Conversely, I’d say “It’s important for you to understand that active homosexuality is compatible with wholeness/holiness.” I’m glad this discussion got at least this far because it makes clear our differences. For me the tent is huge. Marriage is about love and grace shared by couples who may be straight, gay, elderly, fertile, childless, etc. In the history of the Church, marriage has evolved. It has not always been what it is today. The notions of celibacy and virginity have also evolved, as have the understandings of their merits. The Church’s assessment of women has evolved. For me, the magisterial authority of the Church is partially my responsibility. Not all popes are holy and wise, but there are prophets among us. For me, revelation continues.

    I don’t understand control freaks. I don’t understand judgmental people. I don’t understand the withholding of love. I don’t understand bigotry. I don’t understand priests whose private lives are at odds with their preaching.

    Above all, I don’t understand what you fear will happen when women and gay people will have equal rights in the Church. Really, what consequences do you fear? It won’t hurt you or anyone else. These changes will happen. I think I will live to see them. If not, I hope to be at the gates of heaven when you arrive so that I can see your face when Jesus tells you that he was gay.

  • Stephen Wise

    Tony,

    The Church has plenty of history of active gays in high places who have done and are doing terrible damage. It also has plenty of history of people with same-sex tendencies who have struggled to be pure and lived holy and fruitful lives.

    I’m not going to name names here, but suffice to say, Our Lord is not smiling at the filth — gay or straight.

  • Mark

    “I hope to be at the gates of heaven when you arrive so that I can see your face when Jesus tells you that he was gay.” – Tony Adams

    It’s Matthew, Mark, Luke and John not Matthew, Mark, Luke and Elton John.

  • Kenny

    Tony, it is called Hell. And yes, it does exist. We ourselves could end up there by choosing to withhold the truth from others. The end purpose of our existence is not this world, but the next. Is Christ a “control freak” for sending people to Hell? Why can’t He just be nice and non-hateful and just let everyone in. Was He being hateful when He commanded the adulteress to go and sin no more? The woman was just following her heart and where her love lead her. Why did Christ have to be such a bigot? Or maybe He wasn’t after all, but had the truest love for that woman and did not want to see her in hell.

    Divine revelation to the whole and One Church ended when the last Apostle died. The Church will not change these moral teachings as it is unable to change them. What was morally true in the past is always, everywhere, and for all time, morally true. What was sinful in the past will always be sinful. We are not able to live for eternity in Heaven if we are unwilling to accept these truths. By rejecting Truth, people reject Christ.

    As far as eating meat on Fridays; it is not inherently evil (homosexual activity is inherently evil, not to be confused with homosexual attraction itself which is not sinful but can lead to sin.) What is sinful about eating meat on Fridays are the sins of pride (knowingly being disobedient to the rightful authority of the Church and hence Christ Himself and therefore holding meat to be an idol), and gluttony (choosing not to restrain and moderate oneself according to the discipline.) The command to not eat meat on Fridays is still in effect and as such is still sinful if one does eat it, excepting those who have been excused from the discipline. And it is still a mortal sin to choose to eat it depending on the reasons for eating it. If because of not taking proper care to remember, then it is not mortal but venial (unless of course you made a deliberate decision to try to be forgetful thinking it could be used as an excuse.)

    Marriage will always be solely between man and woman as this is what it has been since the beginning. We may improve our understanding on what we already know about the Sacraments through the grace of God, but we can not reject what is known.

    My sister is homosexual (switched to it after an incident with her male date at prom). She has had psychological problems ever since. In the past she was lesbian. Now she claims to be bisexual. When things don’t go her way she immediately starts thinking about suicide. In the Netherlands, where same-sex marriage has been legal for years and is probably more accepted than heterosexuality itself, there is a tremendous and disproportionate amount of psychological problems seen among homosexuals and they are not able to use the excuse that the problems exist because of non-acceptance, as their lifestyle is completely accepted over there.

    Mother of Two Sons: If they ever allow priests to be married again, it would have to be a preexisting marriage. Since the beginning it has always been illicit for already ordained priests to get married, and it would very likely remain that way in the future. Married priests are to hold their wives and family secondary to the Church itself, and in the past before the restriction of celibate discipline was chosen, many failed horribly; putting their wives before their duty to God Himself and therefore holding an idol before God. I think I read somewhere that there were many scandals due to it on a scale larger than the current one on sexual abuse. Today, those who are not called to be celibate are not being called to the priesthood. As long as the Church wishes celibacy for the priesthood, God does not go against the proper authority of binding and loosing given to the Church and therefore does not call those men to the priesthood. The men who ‘feel’ they are being called to the priesthood and yet are unable to accept celibacy, are either receiving their ‘calling’ from a source other than God, unwilling to accept their true calling from God of celibacy, and therefore rejecting the call to the ordained priesthood, or not receiving a call at all from any source.

    And to Tony, in foresight: the authority to bind and loose does not go to the point of rejecting Truth itself, including moral truths. This is why the Church was unable to grant King Henry VIII a divorce, as marriage is permanent to death.

    P.S. In discussing a new study confirming that polygamy is a staple within gay “marriages,” a New York Times article has suggested that doing away with the concept of spousal fidelity in marriage represents an “evolution” that “might point the way for the survival of the institution.” NYT columnist Scott James reported January 28 on a project by San Francisco State University’s Center for Research on Gender and Sexuality examining various aspects of homosexual relationships. James says the study, which is scheduled for release this month, “reveals that monogamy is not a central feature for many.” “Some gay men and lesbians argue that, as a result, they have stronger, longer-lasting and more honest relationships,” the article continues. “And while that may sound counterintuitive, some experts say boundary-challenging gay relationships represent an evolution in marriage

  • Kenny

    It is no surprise that gay activist groups almost unanimously reject most or all of the Church’s teaching, including abortion. The bad fruit of the whole deal is apparent to all who honestly seek Truth.

    As far as hatred, look at how the active homosexual communities treat their own gay ‘friends’ who decide to reject that lifestyle. Like Michael Glatze who was co-founder of Young Gay America and a former advocate for gay rights, before coming to recognize the hate and death of the lifestyle. I think in Maine they are currently attempting to make it a hate crime to speak up as an ex-homosexual. Many many ex-gays receive constant death threats from their old “friends”. Once in, there is no out without consequences.

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Laurie,

    With thanks for your disposition of kindness, I remind you that we: you , me and all the straight and gay Catholics who are drawn to the message of Jesus Christ and cherish what he began are the Church – the One True Church named by you. The changes I foretell will come to pass WITHIN the Church. They will not constitute the destruction of anything. Just a natural dismantling of the weak dam built by misguided old men who thought they could stop the flow of grace in the lives of men and women they fear and loathe because of their own sexual hang-ups.

    Also, my sexuality is not a cross. My receding hairline is a cross.

  • Jim B

    …like “Microsoft Works” or “Civil War” or “Jumbo Shrimp”.

  • Mary Kenny

    . . . since most people are varying UNdiagnosed degrees of hermaphrodites. It’s time for Catholic “Christians” to get over their Nazi ignorance and intolerance, Jim B.

    Kenny, did you know an above author is living in sin with his THIRD “wife” and cheated on her too? Did you the church always changes its dogma to justify current human rights violations? For instance, the church flip flopped on incest definitions to loot legitimate children’s inheritance by banning marriage between already married fifth and sixth cousins. This rule made it impossible for anyone to marry and the church finally said, “Never mind!” The church declared Tourettes Syndrome and pregnancy stretch marks proof of “devil possession” and executed MILLIONS of such sufferers. The church also declared disobedient sex on Sundays the cause of all birth defects. Celibacy was invented to free converts from forced marriages and to free gay and straight playboys from “wrong gender” and aging, childbirth-incontinent wives. Is your lesbian sister younger? — YOUR left-behind XY DNA may have caused microchimerism in her brain and elsewhere. Her depression could be about her inherited looks and your cruel scorn. And have you medically proven YOUR OWN “PURE” gender? — keep in mind, many intersex people are fertile.

  • Ryan Haber

    Nick P.,

    Thank you for adding some sanity to the discussion with your personal witness and reflections regarding alcoholism, sin, and homosexuality.

    Tony Adams,

    It is time that for the American bishops to stop trying to control the placement of the American penis during sex. That is really what this comes down to if you will pardon my blunt language. The bishops need to get their noses out of our sheets and take care of what is going on in their own beds.

    Wrong. Sexuality is at the heart of what it means to be a human being. That’s why everyone gets worked up over it. That’s why Jesus taught about it. That’s why the Church must defend the truth about it.

    You used the word “homophobia” twice in your post. It is a stupid word, and I have always thought so, in the sense that the word does not know what it is talking about – neither do its users. Homo means “like” and phobia means “fear.” I am not afraid of like things. That’s almost senseless. The use of a -phobia word is only an attempt to paint your cultural and political opponents as scaredy-cats who need to grow up and sleep with their lights off. In reality, the situation is nothing of the sort.

    The situation is that in the Jewish and then Christian tradition, homosexual acts have been condemned as aberrant to God’s plan for the human order for over 3000 years. Now, in the last fifty, some people have decided that they want that conviction overthrown, along with a number of others loosely collected in a group called ‘traditional morality’. To overthrow this established order – the order that has given rise to almost every good Western thing from Gothic architecture and the university to the Bill of Rights and the chartered corporation – these powers have stopped at nothing. They have screamed at their opponents and branded them in the media; they have sidestepped democratic processes and locked opponents out of positions of public trust; they have taken control of public and many private schools by sleight-of-hand; they have inflamed the (sometimes legitimate) sense of minorities (including women, who are hardly a minority, but here I think the sense most just) that they have been oppressed by Western morals when in reality there is no place in the world where women and minorities are so free as they are in the West. They have poured tens of billions of dollars into the restructuring of Western society. They have been attempting the overthrow of traditional morality because it is the only thing that gives men and women the self-control and social boundaries necessary for a society that is both ordered and free. They have been attempting the overthrow because they want to profit thereby.

    Now you, Tony Adams, used by these dark forces, collaborate in the overthrow of Western morals – Christian morals. You do it while whining about how oppressed you are. I should like to see you as a Christian in Pakistan, sir.

    You mentioned that you are ordained. Are you using your real name? Are you ordained in the Catholic Church? If so, who is your ordinary?

    I should like to know so that I can ensure that your comments are forwarded to him. If you are not a Catholic cleric, please state of which denomination you are a member, that you are so eager to see our Church reworked so thoroughly. If you are not even using your real name, then please identify yourself.

    My name is Ryan Haber. I live on Orleans Ct in Kensington, Maryland, USA. I am a Catholic layman, a wretched sinner disordered through and through, and desperately loved by my Heavenly Father.

    If you will not identify yourself openly, then I say, beloved sinner that you are, you are also a coward and liar.

  • Ryan Haber

    Mary Kenny,

    I am sorry for you or for whomever you know that has had to live with some sort of sexual irregularity.

    I will be grateful if you can provide published (in print) documentation regarding:

    For instance, the church flip flopped on incest definitions to loot legitimate children’s inheritance by banning marriage between already married fifth and sixth cousins. This rule made it impossible for anyone to marry and the church finally said, “Never mind!”

    or

    The church declared Tourettes Syndrome and pregnancy stretch marks proof of “devil possession” and executed MILLIONS of such sufferers.

    (I don’t think you’ve even thought of how impossible this last statement is; Hitler and Stalin at their most brutal, with the full help of modern mechanization, were only able to kill 1.5 million or so people a year… granted, they were fighting a way… but Mary, “MILLIONS”?)

    or

    The church also declared disobedient sex on Sundays the cause of all birth defects.

    or

    Celibacy was invented to free converts from forced marriages and to free gay and straight playboys from “wrong gender” and aging, childbirth-incontinent wives.

    If you will cite any print publication (they are more reliable since real publishers have to stake their reputation on them) about any of those claims, I will be very grateful to you. I would like to explore them more fully.

  • Mary Kenny

    Throughout nature, opposite sex unborn twins, triplets, etc. are exposed to each other’s sex hormones. Google freemartin lesbian fraternal twin calves who are masculinized before birth by their twin brother calves. This is just one of 46 known intersex causes. “Talk therapy” psychiatric organizations don’t study genes and endocrine disorders. Would you seek BRAIN TUMOR treatment from a podiatrist?? Are you that narrow minded??

  • Ender

    And have you medically proven YOUR OWN “PURE” gender?

    “There are some things so wrong only a highly educated man can believe them.” G. Orwell

  • Ryan Haber

    Mary Kenny,

    I think you’ve gotten a bit off topic. The Church doesn’t have a problem with people who have biologically-determined sexual abnormalities. I imagine that it’s situation and it’s a shame that these things happen. The more we can do to study the causes of such difficulties, the more we can do to help alleviate them. It is the duty of every Christian to be kind to his neighbor, and most especially kind to people who have unusual difficulties or who have been mistreated by others. I am not sure what such situations have to do with gay marriage, though.

    On a last note, you made a number of claims about the Church’s conduct, and I asked if you would be so kind as to provide me with citations for your sources so that I can read up on those claims myself.

    Would you be so kind as to cite your sources regarding the Church’s past deeds, please?

  • Mary Kenny

    “Sacred Trust: The Medieval Church as an Economic Firm” by Robert B. Ekelund, Robert F. Hebert, Robert D. Tollison, Gary M. Anderson, and Audrey B. Davidson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1996 — church flip flopped on incest definitions

    Google “Tourette’s Syndrome possessed by devils” and “witches’ mark” for several references.

    It has been several years since I read their work, but renowned authors/theologians Uta Ranke-Heinemann and Karen Armstrong provided much of the other information. Ranke-Heinemann’s “Eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven: Women, sexuality, and the Catholic Church” (Doubleday) recounts the church’s history of changing sexual rules like banned sex on Sundays causing birth defects. Armstrong’s “The Gospel According to Woman: Christianity’s Creation of the Sex War in the West” (Anchor Books) explained sexual rules being invented by men’s PERSONAL pet revulsions. Imagine yourself living 1700+ years ago in a one room hut with no plumbing and with a detested arranged wife suffering untreatable childbirth fistulas. You would probably welcome escape in a nearby monastery. Armstrong argued that everyone suffered repulsive, untreatable maladies and hygiene deficits, thus the relative peace and appeal of celibate PRIVACY. Some historians believe the witch craze murdered 9 MILLION women over several centuries. Overpopulated Catholic Rwandans recently murdered nearly a million of themselves in a few months with primitive weapons.

    Other sources of jaw dropping church history you should google:

    “Hidden from History” web site and companion Vancouver radio show by activist/author Kevin Annett who documents Christian and Catholic abuses of Native Americans in “boarding school” DEATH CAMPS

    “The Duplessis Orphans” — shocking Quebec abuse of orphans

    “Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, The Nazis, and The Swiss Banks” by Mark Aarons and John Loftus (St. Martin’s) — from Kirkus Reviews: “Head-spinning documentation of how Vatican immunity shielded Nazi war criminals from just punishment . . . .”

    “Vatican Bank Claims” — updates on law suits by survivors of Pope Paul IV’s genocide of 1 MILLION Serb “heretics” in WWII when he was Pius XII undersecretary of state

    Your education skipped all the above CRUCIAL information. And I’ve barely scratched the surface of the church’s covered up history.

  • Nick Palmer

    Ryan, thanks for the kind words. All I really know is my own story, my own sinfulness, and the love God has shown me.

    As for some of the arguments in this ever-growing thread, I’m alternating between frustration and amusement, however wry. Where to start?

    So, Tony doesn’t like black-and-white distinctions? Just because some distinctions are not yes or no, it doesn’t follow that none are. Willful murder and abortion are mortal sins. Period. Even as our race evolves so dramatically beyond our ignorant past (try Peter Singer versus Aristotle, or Karen Armstrong versus St. Augustine, or Bart Ehrman versus St. Thomas Aquinas), we will never “just get over” our silly, superstitious condemnation of murder. I pray!

    As for the equivalence of meat on Friday versus gay marriage or openly, practicing gay clergy, I’ll risk Tony’s ire and giggle.

    I do get a kick out of the Dan Brown-esque silly conspiracy theories. I remember reading a book three or so decades ago that suggested Christianity was just the delusions of a hallucinogenic-mushroom-eating cult. The author found things like commonalities between names and words in the New Testament and mushrooms.

    As for genes and biology, I think this misses the point completely. I don’t know why I’m an alcoholic –neither of my parents are and I had a great upbringing. I know other alcoholics from tragically broken, alcoholic and addict homes. Is it a gene or two or three? Upbringing? Trauma? It really doesn’t matter. It is a DISORDER, and it inclines ME to sin. I cannot accept the “healthiness” of alcoholism, as much as I would be thrilled to be able to drink at will without consequence. And I repeat my point above: given my understanding of free will, it would be a sin for me to drink again. I’m an alcoholic, that’s no sin. I used to drink, that was. I haven’t had a drink for almost thirteen months, by the grace of God.

    Homosexual behavior is wrong and sinful. My faith, and those I RESPECT in that faith tell me it is. Evidence shows it to be an unhealthy lifestyle –physically, emotionally, and spiritually. The “I know some homosexual couples who…” argument doesn’t move me at all. The plural of anecdote is NOT data. And even if the Pope is alleged to be secretly sacrificing kittens in a ritual originating during breaks in the action of the Second Crusade, I’m afraid that I take Jesus at his word, and follow the teaching of the Magisterium.

    Am I a poor, unthinking sheep? Maybe. But dissent-is-the-highest-form-of-patriotism arguments are the pinnacle of self-serving tripe. Just as “bipartisanship” in Obama-speak means “accepting what I want,” these arguments do no intellectual heavy lifting. At all.

  • Pamela W.

    Just wow

  • Pamela W.

    Mary Kenny, I don

  • Tony Adams

    Dear Pamela,

    I suggest you read the works of a good American Catholic writer (one I was assigned to read while in the seminary) Flannery O’Connor. I highly recommend to you one of her short stories entitled “Revelation”. You sound very much like the Ruby Turpin of that story. The lame shall enter first, honey.

  • Ryan Haber

    Pamela W.,

    I do not believe Inside Catholic is providing a platform for heresy. This venue is not a pulpit. In providing an open platform for free debate, provided it be respectful, Inside Catholic is expressing a very important conviction: Truth is correct and will always win out on an even playing field… even often on one stacked against it.

    Tony Adams may have done immense harm elsewhere; I cannot say. Here he has done nothing of consequence, provided there are people to correct his errors. Speaking of which:

    Tony Adams, of what church or denomination are you an ordained clergyman? Are you a Catholic clergyman? If so, who is your ordinary?

    Please answer the questions. I for one cannot take you seriously, now that you’ve claimed to be an alter christus, until you do.

  • Mary Kenny

    who ignore the biological truths of 46 known intersex conditions causing 10-20% of our population to be BORN gay or bisexual. Gay people are born physically INTERSEXED. Only God can be blamed for this and homosexuality is usually LESS medically dangerous than gruesome childbirth complications that maimed and murdered many women I know. Moreover, I’m offended by the absurd cruelty of “charitable” Catholics who defend homosexual desires, but condemn homosexual acts, then ignore John Paul II’s contradictory condemnation of attraction to one’s own wife as “adultery” while praising RELUCTANT LOVELESS sex with the same wife. What a Kafkaesque nightmare! Pamela, by pure gender I mean that you could easily be an undiagnosed Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome XY MALE who looks externally female and if you are married to a man, you are are technically violating your own absurd rules. By incest, I mean that the “ever consistent” Church briefly outlawed marriages between fifth and sixth cousins to swindle their children of their property. That you eagerly obey a NAZI pope who smuggled 100,000 Nazis to North America after WWII speaks volumes about YOUR SINFUL HERESIES, not to mention your TREASONOUS disrespect for our 400,000 soldiers who were killed fighting the pope’s beloved Nazis. I salute Tony Adams for opposing Nazi gay bashers whose heresies masquerade as Catholic orthodoxy. Ignorance of XXY, XXYY, etc. chromosome conditions is not a theologically valid reason for denying human rights to UNaborted intersex people. Catholic extremists with multiple annulments and mistresses have no moral authority to condemn honest gays who wish to marry one time.

  • Kenny

    Pamela, in the same way “Mary Kenny” accused me of having scorn for my sister, even though knowing nothing of our relationship. Me and my whole family still love her and treat her with full respect due to a human being. And I do agree that IC has let through comments that normally would not due to the rules, but perhaps people can be educated about this topic in allowing others to experience the mindset of those who war against the Church and Her teachings. As I have learned with my sister, we can learn to be compassionate to greater degrees after the initial shock of experiencing the kind of psychological problems they have to endure (and comes across into their writings often times.) Even though my sister actually goes around telling people to hate the Church and love the sins (and I mean she directly says that), we can still love her. While she has told us that she does not see any of us as the ones who have truly loved her in her life, we are always there for her with love when she comes back home when things have once again failed for her and “friends” abandon her, we being the only ones willing to have her regardless of her current state.

    “Mary Kenny”, my sister was very feminate looking back in high school. Since then she has made herself very obese to cover her feminine looks, cut her long hair short, and hooks up with people she meets on the internet. Also, I have yet to hear once of anyone possessing functionally organs of both genders. In today’s climate it would be worldwide news and the mainstream media would blast it in our faces for years. Just because both genders have the X chromosome does not mean they are the same gender, as your poor logic seems to be suggesting. Please, stop with your hatred and vitriolic bigotry against those who have chosen to stand with truth. We love you, even if you choose to ignore that fact for personal benefit.

    The most venerated and highly held Saint in the Church happens to be a female. No male saint will ever be seen in the same light.

    If not, I hope to be at the gates of heaven when you arrive so that I can see your face when Jesus tells you that he was gay.

    Tony, no matter how much purgatory we will have to endure, none of us will ever enter Heaven until every single minute ounce of pride is extinguished and replaced with absolute complete humility. You nor anyone else will be seen in Heaven carrying that kind of attitude you wrote. None of us will be seen in Heaven if we are not repenting of all our sins. This is why we will not back off on proclaiming Christ’s unchanging truth to you, just as I would not want the Church to cease proclaiming the unchanging truth to me. Presumption of salvation will lead to the loss of one’s salvation. It is said that the greatest mortal sin of all is pride, as it is the source of all other sins. Satan and his followers were forever more kicked out of Heaven due to pride. Rather than relying on our own accord and “wisdom”, we are required to remain true to Christ and His one, holy, apostolic, and catholic Church against which the gates of Hell will never prevail. We have no fear as it is Christ’s promise to us. We will only attain true life by dying to ourselves. The Church’s teaching of participating in homosexual activities can not and will never change, even if the pope himself attempted to do so. It is not within the pope’s authority or any other of the bishops to change the truth of faith and morals, as the inherent reality of truth is that it is unchangable. What was true in the past, is, and forever will be the truth.

    I suspect we will continue receiving more vitriolic attacks and false claims, but we were told we would be persecuted for holding firm. It is just about all that they have to debate with, and are very desperate to be told that there is nothing wrong with their sins. Some of them who have the most severe of the psychological problems may actually not even be able to comprehend the concept of sin and the consequences of actions. Only God truly knows for sure. Those who accept sin for what it really is and choose to reject it, have the graces given to us by Christ including the Sacraments to fight against the sins. It is a sign of the times that the medical associations threw out and continue to throw out known science concerning the psychological nature of the illness of homosexuality and therefore harder to help them due to fear of the growing militancy against those that disagree.

    May we all come to more fully accept Christ (the Head of the Church and inseparable), ever more so as like children full of trust even when we do not understand everything, as it is only in Him that our redemption is found.

  • Pamela W.

    Dear Pamela,

    I suggest you read the works of a good American Catholic writer (one I was assigned to read while in the seminary) Flannery O’Connor. I highly recommend to you one of her short stories entitled “Revelation”. You sound very much like the Ruby Turpin of that story. The lame shall enter first, honey.

    And you are a priest? Interesting. So when will the willfully disobedient and those who lead others into scandal enter, Tony? And I am trying very hard not to suggest that you read the works of The Creator of the World, (one I

  • Mary Kenny

    are both way off — I grew up Catholic like you and my family is as dysfunctional as Kenny’s. Your ignorance of the complexity of hermaphrodite conditions is appalling, especially when you deny medical reality based on your Catholic blinders. Wishing the earth flat just because you dislike Galileo’s manner and childishly adore the pope’s ignorance won’t make the earth flat. I bring up hermaphrodite conditions and their numerous fertilization causes because they refute church libel of gays. Many intersex conditions aren’t detected at birth, and only show up during puberty or adulthood when individuals begin naturally to change to the apparent opposite sex. Kenny’s sister may have one of these conditions. She also may have been molested during school by clergy. The media has been virtually silent on intersex people and is largely guilty for your own ignorance. However, the know-it-all church should be on top of this, but it is even more silent. I am especially disgusted that notorious straight adulterers and wife dumpers are leading the church’s attacks on intersex gay couples. I have great sympathy for gays because my own Munchausen by Proxy, childbirth-incontinent mother, at the advice of a playboy Baltimore priest, burned all my skin off when I was in first grade as her permanent abstinence excuse since UNnatural Family “Planning” ACCIDENTS nearly killed her several times. My worst insults always came from Catholic “pro-lifers”. I now base my beliefs on people who have actually experienced Near Death Experiences and gone through Life Review Judgments THAT COMPLETELY REFUTE Vatican claims on abortion, contraception, homosexuality and religious denominations. Why make yourself miserable for an abusive criminal cult THAT DOESN’T SPEAK FOR GOD?? Your seemingly innocent pious membership actually makes you CRIMINALLY LIABLE for many of the church’s molestation and Nazi genocide crimes. Why would you donate your hard earned money to PEDOPHILE PRIESTS’ DEFENSE FUNDS? Why would you obey several Nazi popes on contraception, etc.? Did you know God gave women 450 abortifacients that include coffee, tea, wine, ginger and alcohol? Jesus never condemned Jerusalem’s popular RU-486-like Queen Ann’s Lace weed or local mid wife/abortionists because he appreciated how they saved fragile-health women from grisly deaths or worse. You have a lot of self-education ahead if you are serious about the finding truth.

  • Mary Kenny
  • Mary Kenny

    did you both know that NEVER-EXCOMMUNICATED CATHOLIC Hitler and his SS had the very same complaints about the “lazy, chiseling disabled and poor”? — I can just see you two denouncing Jesus for “heretic socialism”! Your Final Judgments won’t be pretty!

  • Ryan Haber

    Pamela, you bring up some interesting points:

    …but how many people will have read Tony’s posts, wanted to believe his error, and not come back to see the ones disputing him? How many people have been led away from the truth by dissident priests all over the world? How many young Catholic people are lost when they enter supposedly ‘Catholic’ universities where so many dissident

  • Ryan Haber

    Tony Adams, of what church or denomination are you an ordained clergyman? Are you a Catholic clergyman? If so, who is your ordinary?

  • Mark

    ” Hitler and his SS had the very same complaints about the ‘lazy, chiseling disabled and poor’?” – Mary Kenny

    Mary, I was obviously pointing out the hypocrisy of Judas and how it correlates to the hypocrisy of modern liberalism… can’t believe you missed that. Of course we need to care for the poor. What should be avoided, however, is using the poor for a power grab.

    http://tiny.cc/Sl6Ae

  • Nick Palmer

    Hi Ryan, I was reading an article in this month’s First Things this morning, and it felt quite relevant to this thread we have going here. I thought you might find it interesting. It is entitled “Christians and Postmoderns” by Joseph Bottum (it may be his first contribution to FT). I think it might highlight the underlying assumptions — pre-modern, modern, and post-modern — of some of the critique being leveled by LGB-blah-blah, Mary, and Tony.

    You should be able to navigate over to it:

    http://tinyurl.com/yzrxpu8

  • Christine

    I know that it is difficult for many of us who try our best to live our lives as Jesus taught. The road is narrow and it is so easy to fall away.

    It is also very discouraging to read about misplaced and distorted feelings used by one of our very shepherds to justify that which is clearly sinful

    A shepherd is who, in his very heart, knows the error of his ways, or else why would he work so hard to conceal his very identity when called to do so on this post on several occasions.

    I stand with Mr. Haber and request that you, Fr. Adams, disclose the information about you as he requested.

    I believe that you do not do so for either of these reasons:

    1. You believe that your comments will jeopardize your clerical position, being that they are so obviously against the teachings of the Church and you will be censured, since you represented yourself in these comments as a Priest, or

    2. You are not a Priest and you lied to provide yourself an air of credibility, which is pride, and against what you yourself wrote regarding truthfulness being the virtue above all others.

    It’s funny that you said that I see the world in black and white when you know nothing about me. For many years I would have been considered a “fag hag” because one of my best friends, who my mother practically raised as a son due to his loneliness, happens to be a practicing homosexual.

    I love him more than you would know and for many years I was what many would call (you too, I assume, since you used the word “honey” in a cultural way) a “fag hag”. I have seen more of the gay scene than many straight people, and I love them. However having witnessed the selfishness that is valued above all within the gay culture and the emptiness it spreads among its followers, I cannot support that lifestyle. As many people have proven, it is possible to be chaste, like Jesus was in his life on earth. It is difficult to go against what your body wants to do, but as another poster has testified regarding his alcoholism, it is both possible and as I have witnessed, worthwhile when people choose to do so. The most well adjusted and happiest homosexuals I knew were living chaste lives and are shining witnesses to the grace of God. I am sad that you have not encountered any of these men. They are truly inspirational.

    I too have historically found it difficult to understand the difference between loving a person as Jesus is while still supporting what He said was good for us. This is the very reasons people killed Jesus, he called them out on sins and loved them all the same. They almost ran him off cliffs and they ended up crucifying him. I remember that he called the Pharisees pretty mean things because of their prideful sins that lead others astray. You should take heed, being of the priestly class, to not send people off sinning because of pride.

    Not sinning is good for us. Leading others to live a lifestyle that is less sinful is good for us as well, and is also your job as a Priest. It is hard to tell people that what they do is wrong, but that you love them anyway. This is where life is not so black and white. I find, however, that doing so may make you enemies

  • Christine

    Hi Mary,

    I have seen your posts on other threads and I am glad that you read Inside Catholic.

    I have read about your struggles in your life and how they have changed your views on the Catholic Church.

    I am truly sorry that your life has been so difficult. I would suggest that you, if you don’t already, try to find a Mass in the area and attend. You will be surprised at how God will touch you during this time and help heal your wounds.

    If you don’t feel that you can go to Mass, take 15 minutes out and sit in Church in front of the Blessed Sacrament (the container at the front of the Church that holds the Eucharist). Sit and pray and cry all you want. Feel the presence of Jesus and understand that HE LOVES YOU.

    I will pray for you as well and I will ask for the intercession of Mother Mary, after who you are named, St. Dymphna and St. Bruno. You will find that the saints I mentioned can be the Mother, brother and sister you have always needed, if you just ask them. These family members will not let you down and they will help you find the comfort that you long for in your heart.

    God Bless.

  • Tony Adams

    To all herein,

    I left this thread when it had obviously gone to seed and was hijacked by the anguished who vent on blogs because it’s the only place where they are spared the sight of people walking away from them.

    Friends and readers tell me there is a demand for clarification about my status. I am a Roman Catholic Priest. Validly ordained by a Cardinal. I am no longer in the active ministry, but I have never been suspended and I have a clean record. The name you see is my legal and real name.
    Do your own homework, boys and girls. I am not exactly underexposed.

    Some of the hatred and rage expressed above goes beyond pitiful and all the way to disgusting. Over and out, comrades. You’ve turned this into the Jerry Springer show.

  • Ryan Haber

    Tony,

    I did google you. You are more underexposed than you might think. You only came up at all when I tacked “fr” to the front of your name, which seems anachronistic now that you mention you have been released from your promises, or else flat out defected.

    I wonder if you think anyone who disagrees with you is anguished and venting. Is it possible to disagree with Fr. Tony Adams and actually be just disagreeing?

    —-

    Nick Palmer,

    Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll read it on the commute to work tomorrow if I take the train. You hit the nail on the head, actually, as I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about the dangers and possibilities opening up before the Church as postmodernism reaches total ascendancy.

    Hope to bump into you again somewhere in the blogosphere.

    As for the rest of you corn-fed hippie-comrades in Christ ([smiley=cool]), I’m outtie for the night. You can tell I’m tired because I just used an emotithing. Let’s see if we can find someone to hate us for the Gospel’s sake tomorrow. I’m not sure what God’s calling me to tomorrow, but right now, my pillow’s calling me to bed. Peace.

  • Mark

    “Some of the hatred and rage expressed above goes beyond pitiful and all the way to disgusting” – Tony Adams

    Too predictable. If others don’t celebrate with homosexuals and other narcissists at the intersection of emotionally damaged and self-obsessed, they are guilty of “hatred and rage” … the “disgusting” part is probably (understandably) transference.

    “Do your own homework, boys and girls. I am not exactly underexposed.” – Tony Adams

    I googled “Father Tony Adams, wiki” and the name which appeared first was Victoria Beckham. So, either you aren’t as famous as you’d like to believe or the internet is having trouble distinguishing over-the-hill spice girls.

  • R.C.

    I stand by my earlier statements, which in summary indicate that if same-sex attraction is not a temptation to sin, and active homosexuality not gravely disordered, then it is certain that the Catholic Church is not what she claims, and there is absolutely no point in being a Catholic.

    It is sad that Tony Adams et alia don’t see this clearly, and sad that their apparently long-suffering and pastoral and gentle supervisors in the hierarchy, desiring not to be inquisitorial, instead permitted their misunderstandings and wishful thinking to blossom into full-fledged heresy and apostasy rather than pulling the weed up by the roots when it first emerged.

    Better catechesis and formation fifty years ago would have prevented much of this haywire thinking. And it’s especially scandalous that it wound its way into the priesthood and the episcopate.

    It is here, though, that we see the value of a living authority. The teaching authority of the Church is not merely Sola Scriptura, nor even the Scripture and Sacred Tradition mix found in some ways among the more orthodox Anglicans and in fuller flower in the Eastern Orthodox churches. Instead, there is a voice in the Catholic Church, today. The flock remains shepherded. And that living voice of authority can tell us when our fantasies of doctrinal development, which seem to us so imminently reasonable, are in fact corruptions caused by our fallen and fallible minds and wills.

    That voice of authority tells us that active homosexuality is intrinsically disordered, that same sex attraction is a temptation to sin. That is the teaching of the Church. If the Church is what she claims, that will be the teaching of the Church next year, and next decade, and next century, and next millennium. If God is God and the whole notion of Catholicism is not a big human error, then in seven hundred and fifty million years there will still be no women ordained, nor gay marriages, in the Church.

    I myself think it likely that before then the Lord will have returned and drawn fallen history to a close before then, terminating Adam’s false start and allowing us to finally begin the true history of humanity as God intended.

    But if He has not returned, then the Church will continue to teach the truth; else she is not the Church and never has been. Those whose philosophies lead inevitably to that conclusion (Mr. Adams and others) had better either rethink their philosophies or else renounce the Church or renounce Christ altogether. It’d be more intellectually honest, and that’s always a noble thing. It is perhaps the best way such folk can show loyalty to the Truth, and thus indirectly to He who Is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

  • Nick Palmer

    R.C., thanks for a nice summation of the perspective of many in this thread. You call to mind two quotes from Fr. Richard John Neuhaus’s 2002 article, “How I Became the Catholic I Was.”

    Regarding homosexuality and church teaching, the good Father noted:

    “It was sadly amusing to read that a Lutheran denomination in this country is undertaking a major study with a view toward revising its teaching on sexual morality, with particular reference to homosexuality. Especially striking was the assurance that the study would be conducted

  • Christine

    Hey folks,

    I love you all. This topic has really got me thinking about my faith as a sinner who is very much loved by the Lord.

    When we falter in love or truth, we run the risk of becoming lukewarm about the Lord and his Holy Church.

    I pray that all on this post, including the deluded and the insane find this love and truth and that the rest of us strive to renew ourselves so as not to become lukewarm. I have appreciated the comments on this thread and close out by quoting from my favorite author (not Flannery O’Connor, btw):

    “I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, ‘I am rich and affluent and have no need of anything,’ and yet do not realize that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

    I advise you to buy from me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich, and white garments to put on so that your shameful nakedness may not be exposed, and buy ointment to smear on your eyes so that you may see.

    Those whom I love, I reprove and chastise. Be earnest, therefore, and repent.

    ” ‘”Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, (then) I will enter his house and dine with him, and he with me.

  • Robert

    Here are some quotes from Mr. Adams blog (http://farmboyz.blogspot.com/) and some of his followers, some concerning the discussion here:

    I know! Mark, welcome to the Catholic borg! Even the few of them that seem capable of rational thought put their conclusions as the premise of their thinking. They begin with “This is how it has always been. Gay is wrong” and they use that premise to prove their conclusion that gay is wrong! It’s just the weirdest thing in the world to engage with them but I did it because I think we need to see how their addled heads work and because they are legion.

    Short commentary on Mass readings:

    Jesus at his angry best, pitching a hissy fit!

    I think perhaps the Cardinals have misread that text. It says “redress” not “red dress”.

    In the comments concerning his short commentary:

    “Call no one on earth your father;
    you have but one Father in heaven.”

    Umm, Father Tony? Awkward! smilies/wink.gif

    Dear Chris Crain,
    I think the bloggers who began calling me “Father” were doing it very much as a joke, and not, I assure you, with any reverence. I continue that blog persona, playing it as a droll role. I hope that helps, but it’s a good reminder to me that some people who don’t know the back story may assume, as did you, something more serious.

    However, reading your comments leads me to ask you a question that I have always wondered about.
    Why do you, and others, bother becoming priests when you so fervently disagree with the Church’s teaching on various moral matters? If I disagreed with PETA’s positions, and ate meat at every meal, why would I become a PETA spokesman?

    Dear Thomas Tucker,
    Yup, I have had too much fun drawing them out from under their rocks. If that is a sin, I am guilty of it.
    To your question, when I was ordained, I really wasn’t thinking much about any of these things. I had a priestly identity honed over twelve years in the seminary but not much of a gay identity. A person’s values grow and clarify over time. I never stopped admiring the message of Jesus but I eventually decided that some of the teachings of the church were simply wrong and were not what Jesus would have us believe. Unlike many other Catholics and priests, I am not God-fearing and I am convinced that if Jesus were listening to me or reading me, he’d say “You got it right, boy.”

    How they think
    There are now 56 comments on this article, 7 of which are mine. Almost all the rest are from very conservative and homophobic Roman Catholics.

    This set of comments includes almost every major assertion used to deny queer Catholics their rights:

    it’s a disorder, like alcoholism
    it’s a choice
    it’s a mortal sin
    gay is OK but gay sex is sinful
    tradition teaches us that its wrong
    the bishops have the magisterial authority
    it’s a cross to bear
    the bible tells us it’s wrong
    some things really are black or white

    This thread should be read by anyone attempting to understand the homophobia embraced by the rank and file of American Catholicism.

    I’ve been following that post since you first posted the link. Some very interesting things keep popping up. But the question that I keep hearing in the back of my mind is this…just how would those same folks react if Papa Benedetto died and a more level headed pope was elected who decided it was time for a more balanced view of homosexuality was called for in the church. What would these folks say then? Would they all go over to the Society of St. Pius X? Makes me wonder!

    It has been very interesting reading these.

    I can understand people thinking that homosexuality seems somehow unnatural, given the role of sex in procreation. I can also understand people thinking that homosexuality is at odds with their religious tradition, in the same way that many Muslims wince seeing someone eat pork.

    I don’t understand this widespread view among religious conservatives that homosexuality is destructive and dangerous. Why does this naturally or logically follow? That God punishes those who stray from the Law in this life? Isn’t that the opposite message of the Gospel? Have these people ever met a real homosexual? What is all of this talk of going in and out of “the lifestyle”? It’s so strange.

    I am, however, very happy to have come across this comment:

    “Or alternatively one could conclude that the promise of Jesus (that the gates of Hades would not prevail) would have proven false: In which case Jesus is not God, was not raised from the dead, and all our hopes are vain, as St. Paul states. Under those circumstances, mass suicide might be the most rational option, but those without the courage to do that could presumably deceive themselves into finding some other meaning for existence for as long as their meat-puppet remained healthy enough to eat, excrete, and suck wind.”

    I think that the New Atheists really fail to comprehend that the meaning that religion gives to a lot of people is really a matter of life and death, and that they won’t just abandon it when faced with logic and reason. One is reminded of a quote from Fyodor Dostoevsky:

    “If anyone could prove to me that Christ is outside the truth, and if the truth really did exclude Christ, I should prefer to stay with Christ and not with truth.”

  • Robert

    Dear Sheepy,
    The fear they have is key. And I think it has to do with not allowing the gay part of their nature some breathing space. They are alarmed by gay thoughts or desires that may have popped into their heads. They resent those who have given themselves permission to exercise the gay part of their nature. I should like to see a survey conducted by Baskin Robbins that would show how few conservative Catholics ever allow themsleves any of the 31 flavors other than vanilla.

    Here, he seems to be claiming to be God,

    dear ewe,

    I know you don’t understand why I should care, but the fact is they took my church. Mine. And they trashed it. I want it back. Not because I need it. That church needs me.

    No, Birdie, it’s a new game. We’ve gone beyond all that. Those diplomacies are over. It’s jungle. It’s gloveless. It heaven/hellish. The young are with us. Money will decide this. Within three years, this will all be over.

    Is this somehow related to another’s comment on the future death of the pope and being replaced by an anti-pope? One wonders.

    Here, it seems maybe one of his followers suggests a location to purchase in recreating ‘his’ church that we have trashed:

    I understand. Here is a better idea.

    http://www.weichertmazzeo.com/…3/Weichert /Townhouse_detail.asp?listingid=26933TH

    good luck FT.

    Wow. Wonderful. You’ve got them stirred, Tony, and more power to you. I will be following this closely, as I suspect are hundreds of priests, bishops and cardinals.

    I have to agree that the momentum is here. We’re seeing it across denominations, as I read of two gay Lutheran priests who are being instated or reinstated into the clergy roster and a Presbyterian gay and partnered pastor who is being returned to ordination as an act of “ecclesiastic disobedience” in Minnesota. We know it’s right, and we are not alone.

    Sorry FT. I know you were part of the clergy once upon a time but this organization will do anything it takes to stay afloat whether it does so kicking and screaming or not. I really don’t understand what is so special about it to hold onto. I am glad you are happy with this small offering.

  • Robert

    Note the comment where he admits he wasn’t really gay to begin with, until he chose to develop towards living that lifestyle.

  • Christine

    The saddest part of this whole situation is that Mr. Adams seems to believe that he will help the Church when he is just trying to bring about its destruction.

    Numbers prove that when any church decides to change its beliefs to placate the homosexual political group, their attendance falls tremendously.

    The only religions gaining in enrollment and attendance these days are the ones with more traditional beliefs regarding the family. The comments listed above reflect the very fact that the most militant in the homosexual politcal group and their staunchest supporters do not attend church with any regularity. Mr. Adams states that numbers and money are on his side, but I bet if you were to conduct a study regarding exactly who attends and financially supports the Catholic Church, the findings would cause Mr. Adams to dismiss us, as he always does when he loses an argument based upon truth and facts, as homophobes.

    Mr. Adams wishes we were homophobes, because then we would be afraid of him and not respond to his heresies and lies. He wants us to be homophobes. May God bless him and touch his heart.

  • Nick Palmer

    Robert, nice work! It provides an excellent view into Tony’s mindset. A few dozen posts back Pamela W. expressed concern about providing a forum for heresy. I don’t wholly agree, and find a spirited, respectful debate helpful in organizing my mind, and seeing new perspectives. What is hard to take, however, is argument in bad faith. Clearly, that’s Tony for you. One wonders why this demi(?)-god stoops to even converse with us — poor, misguided, everything-o-phobic, hateful chattel that we are.

    Oh, and if you’ve hung with the thread this far, Deal, thanks very much for identifying such a critical issue, and for sparking the discussion!

  • Christine

    For me, the magisterial authority of the Church is partially my responsibility. Not all popes are holy and wise, but there are prophets among us. For me, revelation continues.

    Many false prophets will arise and deceive many; and because of the increase of evildoing, the love of many will grow cold.

    But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

    And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached throughout the world as a witness to all nations, and then the end will come.

  • R.C.

    I suppose I should be pleased that Mr. Adams allowed me the privilege of being among those he quoted.

    If he has any additional critical remarks to say about me, or any of the others, I hope he won’t be shy about it. “Blessed are you when….” I don’t have much chance of being persecuted in a thrown-to-the-lions kind of way, and being badmouthed by Tony is a poor substitute, but I’ll take what I can get!

    I find it odd, though, that he and his fellow bloggers caricature my post and those of others here as somehow being illogical or irrational when our posts focus on facts of history and trust in the wisdom of God rather than being swayed by peer pressure.

    Did you notice that? Peer pressure, in the end, is the sum total of Mr. Adams’ argument.

    The faith which was once for all delivered to the apostles, which survived deadly persecutions and a hundred different heresies and barbarian invasions and serial-adulterer English monarchs and Muslim invasions and all the other flaming arrows of the enemy, is apparently waning in popularity.

    Soon, we are told with triumphal glee, all the Protestants will be marrying gays and those who won’t will be fined or jailed, and all the states will legalize gay partnerships under the name of the Christian sacrament, and any preacher stating publicly that it is immoral to have sex with anyone other than an opposite-gender person to whom one is already married will be fined or jailed or sent to a “sensitivity training” re-educational facility.

    That may be. Personally I think his “three years” figure is a huge underestimation — he doesn’t seem to notice that even in the bluest of blue states, when the topic goes to a democratic referendum, the gay marriage proposition invariably is defeated, suggesting that sane and healthy impulses in the human psyche can stubbornly resist indoctrination.

    But I acknowledge that he may be correct in the end. It has certainly happened before. Many civilizations, on their way to collapse, have normalized same-sex masturbatory practices in culture or law. Ours may yet be one such.

    Yet what of it? Mr. Adams believes that “because everyone else is doing it” is a good reason for us to play along; and if that will not convince, then “because you’ll be disadvantaged and subject to discrimination and social disapproval” will up the ante sufficiently for Christians to cave in.

    But Christianity is not, ultimately, a faith designed by men, subject to alteration by men. If it were, it would not be worth having. But I agree with Christian songwriter Rich Mullins’ comment on the Apostles’ Creed, which he sang as a chorus after setting the Creed to music:

    For I believe what I believe
    It’s what makes me what I am.
    I did not make it: No, it is making me.
    It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man.

    Now if one acknowledges that fact, then all the rest follows, including the prohibition on gay mutual masturbation.

    For if Jesus is God then we only know that because of the testimony of the apostles and other disciples.

    …continued…

  • R.C.

    …continuing…

    If we can trust the testimony of the apostles and the other disciples, we know not only that Jesus is God, but what He taught on other topics as well. This leads us to acknowledge the Apostolic Tradition, enscripturated and otherwise, as having come to us from Jesus — which is to say, from the One who created the universe before time began, and in whom we live and move and have our being.

    If the Apostolic Tradition comes to us from Him, then it is trustworthy: He knows (far) better than we!

    As a matter of indisputable historical fact, all Christian teachers have forbidden active homosexuality from Abraham’s time until probably the 1960′s.

    Yes, yes, I know, some people will automatically hold that people alive now are intrinsically wiser and smarter than people of earlier eras, because people of earlier eras did not have iPhones and atomic weapons, and thus the uniform voice of earlier saints and in fact of the vast majority of the healthier pagan traditions may be disregarded as mere ignorant barbarian gibbering.

    (I invite anyone holding this view to read, and comprehend if they’re up to it, the collected works of Sts. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas.)

    In any event, if I am predisposed to revisionism and revolution, it would certainly be illogical, it would be entirely irrational, to think that I, at this late date, have suddenly discovered the true wisdom about homosexuality, if all those others who came before got it wrong. Claiming such a thing without serious arguments or evidence, solely on the basis of my intuition, is not sane. It would not put me on the level of a man who says he is Napoleon. It would put me on the level of a man who says he is a box of Neapolitan Ice Cream.

    So I sensibly do not adopt that view.

    And when I find that peer pressure — the desire to be able to comfortably state my beliefs at cocktail parties without thereby causing anyone any social discomfort — is the sole argument rallied against my view, why then…! I will not only be comfortable holding to what has been believed by the vast majority of all the sanest and holiest persons at all times and in all places, but I will count my absence at cocktail parties to be a small price to pay, to stand in that company!

    So I invite Mr. Adams by all means to carry on bragging of the inevitable conquest of the Church by his strutting cavalcade of defiant diddlers. Let him smugly predict the trampling down of the children of God. Let him adopt as his idol an anachronistic fantasy Jesus who pats him on the back and tells him “you got it right, boy.” (While he is at it, he can invent other laughably ahistorical fantasies: Ghandi packing rifle-cartridges for the English, perhaps, or M.L.K. stitching hoods for the Klan.)

    In the meantime, I follow the historical Jesus: who is Son of God, conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, who was crucified, dead, and buried, who descended into Hades, rose again on the third day, ascended into Heaven, is seated at God’s mighty right hand, and who is returning to judge the quick and the dead, all the sons of men.

    For I believe what I believe,
    It’s what makes me what I am.
    I did not make it: No, it is making me.
    It is the very truth of God and not the invention of any man.

  • Robert

    Looks like they finally found this blog. The last few posts over there were quotes from here. You really stirred those folks up!

    Dear In the Kitchen With Don,
    I left the thread when it became full of the usual unhinged types who troll blog comments because no when will listen to them in real life.


    [This middle section involves him generally ratting out of past sins of someone here who supposedly emailed him, but no specific name given (at least he had a partial misgiving in not listing the actual person if there actually was one, perhaps indicating an angel working really hard on him towards his redemption.) He still makes a claim about the seal of confession being a joke.]

    I can always tell when what I have to say has a good measure of truth in it because people come out of the woodwork for it. Honestly, 5-10 years from now, all this will be resolved. There will be women and married priests. We will look back on this time as a necessary surgery with a good result.

    Notice his hypocrisy after he and others over at his blog have been “trolling” the comments here for the last week, with quoting and all. He seems to have been caught with his hands in the cookie jar, and unable to respond back when his opponents have been given an equal standing with knowledge of the discussions over at his blog. In ‘bad faith’ indeed. We seem to also have very different, opposite, definitions of “unhinged”.[smiley=shock]

    May Christ have mercy on us all.

  • Nick Palmer

    Tony and his cyber-rascals are rather pathetic. They are like kids left hiding after the game of hide-and-seek is over. They are in their little cyber-tree house talking about how icky those traditional Catholics are. Yech! They titter behind their hands at how clever they are, “nobody can find us!” Well, nobody is looking for you. Actually, someone is. That someone is Jesus Christ. And I pray that he does find them, or they find him. I know that he’ll welcome them, as he has so many other misguided, self-righteous sinners (like me). I’m sure that Tony would quickly admonish me that he has neither need for nor interest in my prayers. He has them, nevertheless.

    Thanks to R.C. and others for your foray into their little world. Perhaps some day they’ll open their eyes to God. At my AA meeting last night a friend noted that, “God will give me all the help I’m willing to ask for.” Amen.

  • homosexual

    Religion and the issue of homosexuality have always created heated debate and it will continue to do so for a long time, in my opinion.

  • georgie-ann

    i missed the elaboration of this thread, but returned to it as per Christine’s recommendation in another thread,…

    did anybody notice how unbelievably self-centered the homosexual mind-set is?,…that they have become their own frame of reference, & “that settles that, thank you very much?”,…

    the most important concerns of the world “revolve around them?”,…they & their sterile, introverted, convoluted “cause” are about to ascend to center stage!,…the homosexual experience has now become one of spiritual & cultural enlightenment, certainly not to be missed,…the center of the universe just might have to move over a little bit to make room for them & their swelling numbers,…

    …they certainly need their “arrested development” sophomoric, adolescent-style false prophets to pull all this off,…

    i think it shows, for one thing, just how powerful the seductive dynamics of the kind of sexuality that one engages in are over one’s consciousness & mind-set,…what one “does”/practices in this vein becomes so closely identified (by transference) with who they are,…this level of (taboo) “intimacy” creates a bond/connection with the “other” that joins this distorted “other” to one’s own self in a way that is very hard to shake loose,…

    all the more reason to not become sexually profligate before marriage, and to wait for better conditions to establish this kind of bonding,…once again, as usual, “Father God” knows best,…

  • Gina
  • antonio caetano

    The Church is Organic. That means that all the old view points will disappear because those that hold them will croak.
    The Church has continually become more inclusive. We are inclusive of all creatures in the Cosmos, finally, thanks in large part to Galileo. We are inclusive of dark skinned persons and at least officially, no longer consider them savages, non-human etc. We still have not become inclusive of women and LGBT persons–for different reasons, both groups are still officially considered unworthy, entitled only to an existence in the shadows.
    God is everything, the Cosmos and that unknowable beyond the Cosmos. He is ever expanding, changing hurtling through space (himself), happy, laughing, wishing us well. For all those reasons and more, He is Organic. We can either submit and grow and change or by our own freewill, stop where we choose to stop.
    antonio

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