On Earth as It Is in Heaven

Our Lord teaches us to pray that God’s will be done "on earth as it is in Heaven." But I sometimes fancy that we (and I know for certain that I) have seldom given any thought to what that means.
 
I think that, in part, it’s because we don’t quite know what to make of Heaven, much less how God’s will is done there, nor how to use that as a template for doing it here. The popular notion of Heaven these days is of a sort of pictorial mélange of puffy clouds, pink cherubim, and gauzy TV images of a paradise park or perpetual comfy chair by the hearth on Christmas Eve. Occasionally, in our postmodern culture, our more trendy sorts will depict a God-and-angel-free "Heaven" of Higher Consciousness in which we achieve something called "Enlightenment" and move beyond such petty concerns as love and the troubles of mortal flesh. This usually involves the screen fading to a blank to signify that the hero has ascended to some realm beyond good and evil. Bottom line, though: Whether you believe in God or merely in Enlightenment, Heaven is the place where, as the saying goes, "all our troubles are over."
 


The problem is, the New Testament doesn’t seem to share this simple picture of Heaven. Indeed, the puzzle of Scripture is pinning down just what the word "Heaven" means.
 
Of course, part of the puzzle is that "Heaven" is something that, in the Bible as in English, refers to both spiritual and physical reality. Partly, "Heaven" or "the heavens" refers to the sky. And it partly refers to the spiritual realm. In the ancient mind, the two images were blended, and simple people (such as modern atheists) often imagine that modern believers still function at that Bronze Age level of cognition. So, for instance, there is the famous story of Khrushchev scoffing that cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin had not seen God in outer space. And, of course, there are those innocents today who bill themselves as New Atheists, pointing out to us childish believers that God is not an old man sitting on a cloud.
 
The reply to this sort of confusion is that New Atheists really need to learn how to read books for grown-ups — and to understand both the ancient and the modern religious mind a bit better.
 
 
What we see, particularly in the Old Testament, has been aptly described in the title of a book called Before Philosophy. The point of the book is that, in many cases, the distinctions that Western man will make subsequent to antiquity, and sometimes well after the start of the Christian era, do not exist for many ancients. There are no hard and fast categories for science, art, magic, religion, philosophy, and math in remote antiquity, because the universe is typically received as a connected whole rather than chopped up into academic fields of specialization.
 
So, for instance, Pythagoras (whom we moderns are taught to regard strictly as a secular mathematician) does not see mathematics cut off from the spiritual realm but as emblematic of it. After all, what are the two places where you encounter things that are absolutely real and yet which are not composed of either matter or energy, nor do they exist in time or space? Spirits and numerical values both have this strange quality. You can grasp the reality of "two-ness" without having two things in front of you. Mathematics runs through everything, holding things together in a colossal and elegant dance of equations, as though it were the language — or better still, the syntax — of God’s creative speech. So Pythagoras saw no particular reason, therefore, to quarantine his cogitations about math into the box called "science" while keeping his musings about the transmigration of souls in a box called "religion." It was all one to him.
 
Similarly, the Babylonian Magi in the New Testament who studied the heavens saw no particular division between what we would later distinguish as astrology, astronomy, science, and religion. It was all one, all connected. And much the same idea was present in the minds of biblical writers. For instance, in Revelation 4 and 5 we meet the "four living creatures" — angelic beings John describes as looking like a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle. These images, in turn, refer us back to the vision of Ezekiel 1, in which the prophet (in exile in Babylon some six centuries before John) sees an identical vision. But there’s also strong evidence to link these four images to the constellations of the zodiac, according to biblical scholars like Austin Marsden Farrer, Michel Barnouin, and David Chilton. For the biblical writers indicate a high degree of familiarity with the constellations, with the exception that Scorpio was probably known to them as the Eagle. The four cherubim mentioned in Revelation 4:6-7 are very likely the middle signs in the four quarters of the zodiac: The lion is Leo, the ox is Taurus, the man is Aquarius, and the eagle corresponds to Scorpio. John lists them in counterclockwise order, backward around the zodiac.
 
This is not, however, an example of star worship on John’s part, any more than Matthew’s Gospel is a tribute to the Babylonian astrology of the Magi. Rather, it’s just another example of the common biblical understanding that the heavens, like all the rest of creation, are a sign made by God and pointing to God. In the words of Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God." To the people of biblical times, the stars’ groupings are not random, for the simple reason that nothing in creation is random. Rather, they thought the macrocosm of creation showed the glory of God writ large across the heavens just as the microcosm of the tabernacle (and, later, the temple) showed it on a smaller, more intimate scale. What we are seeing, in fact, is a sort of embryonic sacramentalism whereby the invisible is made visible through the physical.
 
So it should be no surprise to us that John’s star imagery borrows not from paganism but from Jewish Scripture. For in the Old Testament (cf. Num. 2), the arrangement of the twelve tribes of Israel around the tabernacle probably corresponded to the zodiac and its twelve signs. In fact, at least six ancient synagogues (at Hammat Tiberias, Beit Alpha, Huseifa, Susiya, Naaran, and Sepphoris) are decorated with the zodiac. The hope of the twelve tribes of the Chosen People is that Israel is the beginning of the new order of things, whose destiny and divine authorship is symbolized by the twelve constellations. Indeed, the link between the "heavenly host" ruled by Yahweh Sabaoth (the "Lord of Hosts") and the nation of Israel is very strong; for the heavenly host, or army of angelic powers symbolized by the stars, is ruled over by the very same God who commands the armies of Israel or the "earthly host." The earthly tabernacle was understood by Israelites to be a miniature of God’s heavenly dwelling. both were attended by the armies of the Lord, composed of the angels and the people of Israel.
 
So, for instance, in Genesis 37:9, Jacob and his family are likened to the sun, moon, and twelve stars. The book of Judges also reflects the notion that the "heavenly host" of God and the earthly host of Israel are all members of the army of God. That’s why Judges 5:20 celebrates the defeat of Jabin and his general Sisera by singing, "From heaven fought the stars, from their courses they fought against Sisera." Once again, we see the tendency of the ancient mind to view things as connected rather than as separated. Heaven (in what we call the "spiritual sense") and the heavens (meaning the skies above, whether full of puffy clouds or stars) were seen as connected. But it seldom occurs to the ancient mind to probe the nature of the connection or distinguish the spiritual reality from the thing symbolizing it. That minds sees the connectedness of things — and it sees something else: warfare — even in the heavenlies.
 
 
Let me give you some biblical passages to give you an idea of what I mean:
 
For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom 8:38-39).
 
For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places (Eph 6:12).
 
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities — all things were created through him and for him (Col 1:15-16).
 
He disarmed the principalities and powers and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in him (Col 2:15).
 
To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:8-10).
 
What’s striking about all this, of course, is that even after we have distinguished between Heaven-as-Sky and Heaven-as-Spiritual-Reality, Paul does not seem to share our modern-day image of Heaven (or perhaps more precisely "the heavenlies") as a particularly tranquil place. Nor does John, in his turbulent Revelation, which seems to summarize the early Christian picture of things by declaring flatly "war arose in Heaven" (Rev 12:7). In short, the biblical vision of a Heaven ruled by the Lord of Hosts suggests that our modern picture of puffy clouds and nothing but peace is rather inadequate, and that this may contribute mightily to our wrong notions of the life of prayer and phrases like, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
 
For prayer, of course, is a great struggle, not a retreat into Nirvana. What the Tradition has always maintained is that the reason for that struggle is threefold: the world, the flesh — and the devil. Different strains of modernity have different objections to this proposition. Many find it incredible to believe that reality might have more than two floors: the visible universe and the utterly unconditioned reality of God in eternity. So they are startled by Scripture’s "primitive" vision of a heavenly realm in which there is warfare and battle between the Lord of Hosts and the "powers" that Paul speaks of.
 
Such folk are often also inclined to reject the notion of the only really trustworthy conspiracy theory in the world: Paul’s description of the "principalities and powers," the "world rulers of this present darkness," and the "spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." For similar reasons, they don’t know what to make of notions like the "prince of the power of the air" (Eph 2:2) or of Paul’s strange remarks about being caught up to the "third heaven" (2 Cor 12:2). It has not occurred to us (usually) that there can be anything besides our physical universe (which is what "earth" refers to theologically) and "Heaven" (meaning "total union with God in Christ").
 
But, in fact, Scripture gives us every reason to think that "Heaven" has another, unsuspected-by-moderns meaning in the minds of the biblical authors: namely, that instead of a simple two-story structure of earth below and Heaven above, there is instead a sort of skyscraper of created orders and beings that, while "supernatural" to us, are still creatures and infinitely inferior to God. And not all these created spiritual beings are friendly to us or to God, judging from Paul’s remarks. That, at the very minimum, appears to be a pretty constant message from the story of the Fall (where Something was here before us to tempt us) to the Exodus (where God is making war on the gods of Egypt and those gods try to fight back) to the contests of the Old Testament (where the prophets likewise make war on spiritual beings who aren’t precisely non-existent so much as "not God") to the Gospels (where Jesus is in open warfare with spiritual beings who can possess and inflict sundry harms) to Paul (who takes it for granted that the gods of the pagans are demons).
 
The medieval period, taking this cue from Scripture’s cryptic remarks, had great fun elaborating an angelology (and demonology) that I am not persuaded is especially sound. But at the same time, this habit of mind preserved something that modernity could really stand to recover: namely, the recognition that prayer is a battle and that we really are involved with a creation that is much, much bigger than we realize: one that really does include powers, principalities, and sundry spiritual beings, both good and evil, beyond this visible creation. Moreover, it reinforces for us a realistic sense of our position in the world as creatures who are, by nature, lower than angels and yet, by grace, lifted far above them. That’s the point of Paul’s startling remark that "through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places," and Peter’s comment that even angels long to look into the mysteries that God is revealing through the Church.
 
This is not to say we are any great shakes, of course. Rather it is to say that, as with Hobbits, Eru has chosen to work out his purposes through the lowest and most undeserving of his creatures so that no creature can boast — even the mighty thrones, dominations, principalities, and powers that He has fashioned to serve Him.
 
The Catechism tells us:
 
It would not be inconsistent with the truth to understand the words, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven," to mean: "in the Church as in our Lord Jesus Christ himself"; or "in the Bride who has been betrothed, just as in the Bridegroom who has accomplished the will of the Father" (2827).
 
In short, Jesus, not some place in the clouds, is Heaven. If you want to see how God’s will is fulfilled "in Heaven" so that you can imitate it here on earth, then don’t wait around for a vision of angels in realms of glory and try to imitate that. Instead, look at Jesus. He is Heaven on earth, and we must imitate Him in the battle of prayer and obedience. In the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, Heaven joins earth to Himself and brings the battle to the foe.  He literally does the will of God on earth as it is in Heaven, because He is Heaven.
 
In so doing, he prepares the way for That Day when not just earth but even Heaven will be freed from its wars and strife and be joined with the Blessed Trinity, not merely in a New Earth, but a New Heaven as well (Rev 21:1).

Mark P. Shea

By

Mark P. Shea is the author of Mary, Mother of the Son and other works. He was a senior editor at Catholic Exchange and is a former columnist for Crisis Magazine.

  • Austin

    Children will ask, what is Heaven? We usually cannot give them the answer they want: a concise factual answer, so we sort of wander around with our answer, not really knowing what we are talking about. Theoretical physicists are now talking about other dimensions, parallel universes, etc. Is Heaven another dimension? Another universe perhaps? Very interesing to say the least.

    Or perhaps is Heaven different for different people? To the Cubs fan, suffering for a century, could Heaven be a place, perhaps an alternate universe where the Cubs finally win the World Series?

    As a non theologian, I think you can say that Heaven is a place or perhaps a state where you are in the direct presence of a revealed God, along with the righteous souls of the true believers. What shape, form or state this would be is pure speculation.

    I wes watching the Protestant, quasi Evangellical Trinity network some time ago while channel surfing and saw a Protestant minister [don’t know his denomination], talking in great detail about Heaven, the kind of food they have [yes, according to the good “rev” they do eat in Heaven], and all sorts of details. It struck me as rather odd that this man can be so certain of details of a place or state that he has never experienced: kind of like the medieval monks engaged in debate over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. In some respects this makes no more sense than a celestial Cubs team finally winning a World Series.

    We don’t know what Heaven is, but all we can do is trust in the Lord. That is enough.

  • Bill Sr.

    To be fully Christian is to follow Christ and his sole requirement for that is to

  • Ted

    Heaven is God’s own “abode,” whatever that is. It is always thought of as a paradise. Jesus said it is a place where moths and rust don’t destroy and where there are no thieves that steal. It’s a place where God’s laws of love and justice are always being upheld and never violated.

    So, basically, heaven is just the continuation of the good experience of living life as experienced here on earth *minus all the evil.*

    I think we taste of heaven whenever people do good (Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven), and we see a glimpse of it in the beauty of God’s physical creation itself.

  • Francis

    The author seems to always rely on scripture to prove his point as he has done it seems in his other disections of the Lords Prayer

    No mention of the Saints who have had visions and physically have seen our Lord and Lady, not to mention Fatima.

    Tan books has many great books on heaven, and the Baltimore Cathechism Questions 1395 on down covers such so beautifully

    http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-37.htm

  • Ted Seeber

    The most non-Roman influence I have (though I guess, CS Lewis was a high Anglican and thus “catholic” in the loosest sense of the word) is in CS Lewis’ “long table, long handled spoons” definition of heaven and hell. The first vision, Hell, is a fancy banquet, but everybody has a spoon tied to their hand that has such a long handle that they can’t reach their own mouths- so they’re starving. The second vision, Heaven, is just like that except everybody is feeding his neighbor.

    A more Catholic version of this came to us in the Pope’s Wednesday addresses in 1999: John Paul II’s view of Heaven, Purgatory and Hell were states of mind- completely achievable right here on Earth; the saint in heaven, and we’ve all known somebody going through Hell, or it’s temporary version, Purgatory. Little did I know, when reading English transcripts of those Homilies, that I would be spending the next 10 years fighting for Heaven as the world seemed to go to Hell around me. I’m still unsure as to the world; in our lack of wanting to do God’s will and build Heaven on Earth, we seem to have left it to Satan to create Hell on Earth. But perhaps this is only Purgatory for the believer- and all in Purgatory can be comforted in the idea that their intended place is Heaven, that God intends us to experience Heaven once we have learned the lessons of Hell.

    One of my most challenging issues right now is my “non-denominational” relatives- a branch of which recently went through a fight with the State of Washington over what good parenting consists of, a fight they won- but not before the strain on their budget cost them their home. Being Catholic- and in keeping with Charity- they’re now living in my house, as I try to offer them Caritas in Veritate on a the smallest level of subsidarity possible. I fear as time goes on, I’m in danger of becoming an enabler to their (particularily his) sin- neither of them seems to understand the dangers of certain financial basics I learned in grade school, especially when expenses are greater than income; little wonder the strain of having to maintain two households for the imagined “safety” of the children caused them to become homeless. But with Charity, I hope to make their current hell merely purgatory. And with that, bring some Heaven into the world.

  • Eric Bohn

    Knowing what has been revealed to me about our world, the nature of God’s creation, and the conflict that exists between the eternal forces, I always suspected that there would be some way in which it would be possible to ‘connect the dots in the sky’, so as to teach me something more about God that I had not previously known. However, I figured that the foundations had by now been completely erroded and remade by the powers that be in this world in such a way that I would have to first embark on what would be for me a totally new field of study. It was a prospect that seemed daunting to me at this stage of my life, but perhaps an unnecessary one…

    What you’ve said here confirmed my suspicions. I’m familiar with the creature of Revelation that you referenced in this article, and of how it served in the canonization of what we recognize as true Scripture. However, I had not realized how much truth there still was in the symbology that had appeared, as it was taught to me, to be of completely pagan origins. Though now, looking back on it, I suppose it makes perfect sense. The perversion was subtle, but significant. What good to either party would there be to complete obfuscation? So the contrast between the eagle and the scorpion survives.

    I’ve bookmarked this article, as I’m getting the impression that there is far more here than the considerable amount I’ve picked up already.

    Thank you for a piece well done.

  • Christine

    Think of the love that the Father has lavished on us,
    by letting us be called God

  • Francis

    Mr. Seeber

    I have to hold my tongue at so many functions-family or friends, because of the non believers or Cafeteria Catholics

    By no means am I an authority in every sense of the word, but what is being promulgated today is the so called laity writing books the Scott Hahns and so forth who though appear deeply rooted in Catholicsm, make a nice profit on their venture.

    We all in sin take swipes at our clergy, but the cream usually rises to the top, like a Father Corapi or an Archbishop Sheen. Men who have taken vows and dont live for profit like a Scott Hahn who for some reason he and others like him have tried to sell their brand of Catholicsm, while never having entered seminary or taken a vow in their life.

    Buy from EWTN or a Traditional Catholic book store tapes of Father Corapi, or Archbishop Sheen and just ask your family to watch for 1 hour as a favor. These men have more charisma than we do. They are filled with the holy spirit

  • Ted Seeber

    Mr. Seeber

    I have to hold my tongue at so many functions-family or friends, because of the non believers or Cafeteria Catholics

    I know the feeling quite strongly. More than half my family is either fallen away, or non-Catholic to begin with.

    By no means am I an authority in every sense of the word, but what is being promulgated today is the so called laity writing books the Scott Hahns and so forth who though appear deeply rooted in Catholicsm, make a nice profit on their venture.

    I’d love to do that- but I’m *far* more consumer of theology, than theologian. I like the ones who are the furthest away from profit- and the closest to poverty- for they are living their faith.

    We all in sin take swipes at our clergy, but the cream usually rises to the top, like a Father Corapi or an Archbishop Sheen. Men who have taken vows and dont live for profit like a Scott Hahn who for some reason he and others like him have tried to sell their brand of Catholicsm, while never having entered seminary or taken a vow in their life.

    In addition to that- I fear I’m a bit of an antiquarian. Even in the period when I fell away from the church and studied other religions, it was the philosophies that were more than a millenia or two old that held the most interesting ideas.

    Buy from EWTN or a Traditional Catholic book store tapes of Father Corapi, or Archbishop Sheen and just ask your family to watch for 1 hour as a favor. These men have more charisma than we do. They are filled with the holy spirit

    Now that’s a good idea. No money for it, but that’s a very good idea. I wonder- does EWTN rerun Life is Worth Living? I’m going to hit their website right now! I might be able to TIVO it- and right now, that couple needs it!

  • Ted Seeber

    Buy from EWTN or a Traditional Catholic book store tapes of Father Corapi, or Archbishop Sheen and just ask your family to watch for 1 hour as a favor. These men have more charisma than we do. They are filled with the holy spirit

    Looking at the EWTN website, Father Corapi is on at a time that I’m not getting anything else and that the TV set is normally off; soon as I get home I’m programming in him and Life on the Rock. GREAT IDEA and thank you!

  • Mark Shea

    Francis:

    Let me make a suggestion to you: try quitting whatever job you have and start supporting your family as an ink-stained wretch in the world of Catholic publishing. You will soon be disabused of the truly bizarre notion that we lay scribes are in it for the money.

    As to Scott, the dude can take care of himself, but doesn’t your brain break at the fact that EWTN and fellows like Fr. John Corapi (whom you you cite as a hero) think the world of the guy? Not to mention the fact that he *teaches* at the seminary where your priest will go to be formed? Is it too much to ask for a little charity from you instead of the bizarre, baseless and insulting smear that a layman who serves the Church with obvious devotion and fidelity is really in it for the money.

    Sheesh!

    Now could we return to the actual topic and stop with ludicrous backbiting?

  • Russel Olson

    Great article. I love the notion of Jesus being heaven itself. I’ve often thought of heaven as the eternal union of God and man, which happens to be a good description of Jesus too!

  • Wade St. Onge
  • Wade St. Onge
  • Christine

    [smiley=sad] How sad that this topic has degenerated from the ultimate topic, Heaven, to Ted Seeber’s point of view about topics not directly related to the original article.

    I was hoping to come back to the post to see other comments that would build me up, instead I saw what is above. Can’t at least one thread of commentaries be uplifting and NOT about the other stuff?

  • Mark G.

    I don’t think the Church has done a good job of painting a credible picture of either heaven or hell to the Faithful from the pulpit. It’s much less messy for homilists to talk about social justice issues. Especially in these times, I just don’t see that people are willing to commit themselves for an end that’s never been explained to them.

  • Ted Seeber

    [smiley=sad] How sad that this topic has degenerated from the ultimate topic, Heaven, to Ted Seeber’s point of view about topics not directly related to the original article.

    I was hoping to come back to the post to see other comments that would build me up, instead I saw what is above. Can’t at least one thread of commentaries be uplifting and NOT about the other stuff?

    What isn’t uplifting about helping the homeless? Or do you think, perhaps, that helping others is not uplifting?

  • Christine

    Ted,

    You always take us to topics you want to talk about. I know that in heaven, we will be friends and all disagreements will end.

    This is one of the true gifts of heaven, the communion of saints without the veil that separates us in this valley of tears.

    How about that for getting us back onto topic? [smiley=wink]

  • Ted Seeber

    Ted,

    You always take us to topics you want to talk about. I know that in heaven, we will be friends and all disagreements will end.

    This is one of the true gifts of heaven, the communion of saints without the veil that separates us in this valley of tears.

    How about that for getting us back onto topic? [smiley=wink]

    Ok, a little non-Catholic philosophy here. Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert, was once asked what the key to his success was. He claimed it was realizing that *conversations were not I say something and you respond*, but rather *I say something interesting to me, and you say something interesting to you*.

    It may be because of my autism- but what else am I supposed to write, other than the thoughts God has given me?

    Part of my point was this exactly though- our greatest barrier to achieving the Heaven on Earth the Saints have shown us (and yes, I capitalized those words on purpose) and that John Paul II spoke about back in 1999; is disagreement.

    For that, I fear, we’ll have to wait until God reveals to us the mysteries of the universe.

    Until then, can we just all do what we can to bring a little heaven to earth?

  • Mark

    I didn’t mind at all that Ted wanted to talk about doing God’s will “on earth as in heaven”. That’s what the article is about.

    What I objected to was Francis taking a discussion of the Lord’s Prayer as an occasion to indulge in gratuitous smearing and backbiting a faithful Catholic brother as some sort of mercenary. Totally out of line and uncalled for.

  • Francis

    Mr. Shea

    I dont recall mentioning your name, but you seem to think this is about you. I would have thought you write for blogs like this for free, like I write for my professional journals in my line of work without getting paid. I was thinking of Scott Hahn. If you get paid for this, then that is great for you.

    As far as Father Corapai please dont take a swipe and him or EWTN, he is a role model for millions and lives the life of a priest dedicated to teaching us,he has the holy spirit in him

    God bless you

  • Francis

    FWIW

    No swipe. just did not know that those who have not spent time in seminary and learned in the Catholic faith, and have not received the Sacrament of Holy Orders should be taken on the same plane as those who have, like Father Corapi or Archbishop Sheen. If that makes a layperson who kind finds an audience willing to pay for his/her works, that is great, this is capitalism and so be it, who am I to tell someone who to turn on or off? Did not know such existed so please do not slander me (you used the word mercenary, dont know how that applies to this author)

    Now, back to the thread, the Our Father has been translated down from Aramic and like most of the bible some of the translation has been lost. To try and decipher each and every word is something we should expect our Protestant bretheren to do, not Catholics.

    Are we not as Catholics supposed to allow the Church to interpret the Bible for us, and not a layperson, any layperson? This is where I only trust one who has been bestowed the sacrament of Holy Orders as they are on a different level than we are as they are living the life, following in the footsteps of Jesus.

    To this day scholars still do not know if Jesus was talking about the “existential” our presence on earth or “eschatological”, the coming of the Kingdom of God. So it seems odd with all of the translations (if you read the original Aramic translation, one gets a different meaning) to sit here and interpret word for word the Lords Prayer

    Next thread!!!

  • Luis Marasigan

    Your Will be done on earth as It is in Heaven means living in the Divine Will. Living is continuous beating of the heart, uninterrupted circulation of the blood, non-stop breathing. The moment one of them stops, life ceases. Living in the Divine Will is a continuous doing the Will of God just as the Angels and Saints do in Heaven; all our acts should be the Will of God. We know God

  • JW

    Mr. Seeber

    I have to hold my tongue at so many functions-family or friends, because of the non believers or Cafeteria Catholics

    By no means am I an authority in every sense of the word, but what is being promulgated today is the so called laity writing books the Scott Hahns and so forth who though appear deeply rooted in Catholicsm, make a nice profit on their venture.

    We all in sin take swipes at our clergy, but the cream usually rises to the top, like a Father Corapi or an Archbishop Sheen. Men who have taken vows and dont live for profit like a Scott Hahn who for some reason he and others like him have tried to sell their brand of Catholicsm, while never having entered seminary or taken a vow in their life.

    Buy from EWTN or a Traditional Catholic book store tapes of Father Corapi, or Archbishop Sheen and just ask your family to watch for 1 hour as a favor. These men have more charisma than we do. They are filled with the holy spirit

    Why do you condemn this man? He struggled with his beliefs for many years, and through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and Divine Revelation came to believe in the sanctity of the Catholic Church, after growing up in a world where the Catholic Church was considered evil? Divine Revelation is not limited to those who enter into the life of the Priest, but to all who seek peace and prosperity through the knowledge and understanding of God. But how dare you judge him for taking steps to ensure that what he believes is the proper thing is taught to the Children of God. Might I remind you, that he has obtained a Nihl Obstat and Imprimatur for all his works, as well as stresses that all Catholic ensure anything extracanonical books they read have attained them as well.

    Do not be so quick to judge those who teach in the name of Christ. For even a Priest, a man may be deceived, but in God there is no deception.

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